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Honest mistake my ass. This is completely despicable. I like how the defense is 'They're marines, they wouldn't knowingly do that'. What does that even mean? I didn't realize the US military force was now considered to be infallible. I think they should've at least sent out a memo, or something. | |
Looks more like the Kiss logo to me...! And they didn't say they thought it meant that... they said their SS meant sniper scout... Sounds like you have right and truely jumpend on the media over exaggeration already...! | |
Eh, probably not a mistake, really. Though I don't know why they would want to use that symbol if they knew its meaning. That said, good to know "everyone" thinks I'm retarded and the least educated person ever because I'm American and don't recognize that particular Nazi symbol. | |
Oh, and my sticking my middle finger at them does not mean I'm saying Fuck you. No no no. No, to me it means "Good job boys". Yeah, that's it... | |
They thought it meant sniper scout... is that even a thing? How do you even go through life without learning about this kind of thing, especially if you're in the military? I suppose one could argue the symbol of the SS is nowhere near as recognizable as the Swastika which is how it might be possible to make this kind of mistake, but even that is a freaking long shot. Facepalm is a bit of an understatement for this one, facedesk seems more appropriate. | |
Because symbols have universal meaning, right? I doubt the Marines weren't somehow cognizant of what it may have been tied to, but that is a horrible counter-argument. | |
Yes, a lot of symbols have universal meaning. Especially ones originating in a WORLD WAR where MARINES fought and DIED. If that symbol isn't known in America, then that's just kinda sad. Maybe if we stopped funding the military and starting funding education... | |
Look... As an Officer in the military I have been deployed with guys like this, and you know what... they do stuff like that all the time without knowing! I had to get a guy to recover some folders once because he put pics of Templar Knights all over them, but didn't even think of the imagary, he just liked the pictures... You got to understand the media put shit spin on all things like that... The story is probably not anything like it says, and it probably is the SS from the Kiss logo.. The Marines probably didn't put the two and two together, that's now that they are trained to do... on the other hand, what they are trained to do they are damn good at! I'd like to see you keep your obviously far superior head while its being fired at... That's the difference between them and you... it seems obvious to you.. it doesn't to them. And yes, I would defend this to the bone. The guys fuck-up from time to time, I know that, but it's my job to understand why they do, and to steer them from doing it again! And even though I am not of the same country as these guys, I have worked with them and understand that yes... that can be a naive mistake! | |
So everyone in the world understands the middle finger as "Fuck you"? There is no culture that would look at that and think "Wtf is he doing?" The middle finger is a bad example. | |
The American culture should. That's my point. The SS symbol isn't some sort of unknown thing that you know, wasn't common knowledge in America say 60 years ago. Something that isn't part of AMERICAN history. Something that isn't im the AMERICAN collective conscious. | |
There's just no good way to interpret this. Either these marines are racist fuckwads (And censors be damned, it's the only superlative that fits) and now they've got the higher ranks -covering- for them. Or they're complete imbeciles for not recognizing the second most famous symbol of the Nazi Party next to the goddamned Swastika as it symbolizes the singularly most feared and loathed arm of the Nazi Empire. Okay, I feel better now, but honestly, "We thought it stood for Sniper Scout" is right up there with weak backpedalling excuses as trying to claim that you were drawing a 'Hindu' Swastika. No, you weren't, and you're not fooling anyone. I'm all for freedom of expression, so if they want to be racist hillbillies, fine. But man up and admit to it, don't try to hide behind false naivete, that's just insulting, to everyone. | |
Eh, it's just a symbol, a pretty badass, wicked cool symbol at that. The Nazi Schutzstaffel were bad, the symbol is not. But people will get offended over any little trivial thing. I remember when using the Swastika was a cool and okay thing to do, then some asshole uses it, and suddenly it's not okay because it'll offend people. | |
Regardless of what the Marines thought the flag meant, is this really that big of a deal? That here are some pricks in an organization of 200k members (who are mostly young) is really that surprising? Given everything that's going on in the world, how is this a news story? | |
I do agree with you on a level. It's simply a symbol and there's a chance they weren't trying to offend people and be edgy. This reminds me of the time I realized that the 'V' you make with your fingers backwards means 'fuck you.' Not in my culture it doesn't. Maybe in someone else's hand it means 'fuck you' but on mine it means 'peace.'
But what if you were drawing the Hindu Swastika? I'd be a little scared of drawing the Buddhist swastika if everyone jumped to the conclusion that I was trying to be a racist fuckward. A general rule of thumb is though, curved=Nazi/straight=everything else. But this is a general rule, it's shown to be curved in the past too. | |
The problem is that the double S symbol isn't widely recognized in American culture. It isn't that the educational system fails to cover it; most units on WWII tend to spend a great deal of time on the internal workings of Nazi Germany, the SS inclusive. The media simply fails to emphasize the imagery associated with the SS, and as much as we like to believe that we remember everything we're taught in school, what we're immediately able to recognize is dictated by how often we see it and how much we have a vested personal interest in it. The latter would mainly apply to history buffs in this case, and the media has really dropped the ball on the former. The reason the Swastika is immediately recognizable is because seventy years of war movies, books, video games, etc have drilled it into the general consciousness that these were bad people. Were it not for popular culture preserving Hitler's image, it would once again be socially permissible for me to grow a particular moustache. The same has not happened to the double S symbol, and as such it's somewhat unknown. The Death's Head symbol would probably surpass it in identifiability with the Nazi party, simply because a skull looks more impressive to a movie producer than a weird font. (Note that I'm only speaking from what I have witnessed. If your viewpoint differs, I acquiesce the point and return to my corner to sob uncontrollably to myself.) | |
Not the same symbol... but close. The OP is flat out wrong with the title of this thread. The horizontal lines aren't the same. The German SS has a slant on all of them, those are straight/level. EDIT: Plus, it sounds like the USMC have been using it since the 80's. Since, you know, it's not like Nazis invented Armanen runes, the Anglo-Saxon Sigel, or the letter S. *yawns Wake me up when Thor takes back his swastika... | |
I think it's the Swastika that's really known and embedded in the collective conscious. But the SS logo is never really used or associated with imagery from WWII unless you look into it, which Public Education doesn't really do. It's not an American thing either, people bitch about "how stupid we are" but I guarantee if you polled people from every country except Germany with "is this a Heavy Metal logo", the majority of people would say yes. | |
The stylized S in the picture with the Marines has been an unofficial symbol of the Marine Corps Scout Snipers for at least two or three decades. Their is no story here. | |
I can confirm that the Marines honestly don't give a shit, oooh that was used 70 years ago by a group that was unpopular!!! Go fuck yourself (and if you disagree any scout/sniper will step into the ring of honor with you) | |
That's a fair point actually that I ought to have elaborated on in my original post, the differences are very clear to someone who knows them, (And uh, straight and curved makes little difference, it's actually the direction the arms point that marks the difference). the reasons I know the difference is because have dealt with so many people who have drawn or displayed a swastika on something, (A proper, Nazi, clockwise, swastika) and when confronted about it, try to sputter out some lame excuse about it being a "Hindu" symbol and not a racist one, which I have to add, coming from some pasty white american kid who has very clearly displayed a lack of interest in different cultures before, is absolutely priceless. I suppose that example, which happens far more often than I'd like to admit, may have jaded me against honest naivete. Perhaps they are just stupid and ill-informed, and if it were just one or two marines who happened to post it on Facebook, I'd probably believe them. But the fact out of a dozen Marines, plus whomever took the picture, plus whoever was spectating, then out of all the people they would have shown it to, then the -business- who used it on their site, not one person went "Hey, wait a minute..." until somebody blew the whistle on them, and then they come up with this excuse that -reeks- of feeble backpedalling... that just doesn't sit right. And while I apologize for slamming you with another wall of text, I feel I should chime in on the symbol itself. If these men had used proper Latin S's, then yes, this would in fact be simply a case of someone looking for controversy where there is none, But they used the Double Sig Runes which has only -ever- symbolized the Nazi SS, it was chosen specifically for it's call back to Nordic culture which Hitler believed was the bloodline of his Master Race. So unlike the swastika, and other symbols and gestures, this one leaves no room for misinterpretation. | |
No need to apologize, that made a very nice read and I understand what you're saying too. | |
I hereby direct you to terminal lance... my favorite webcomic ;) http://terminallance.com/2012/02/10/terminal-lance-insspiration/ This argument could go on forever :P | |
are you me? because i was going to say something alone this line | |
I'm a big history buff, and even on Nazi Germany. However, I didn't at first think "SS," nor would I have assumed that, since the Marines have used that symbol as the Scout Snipers since the '80s. So what do I think? I think the media, and people offended by this, are over-reacting morons. Simple mistake and/or misunderstanding. Nothing more, folks. EDIT: Since some people are morons, you don't have to know every single symbol in every military force that roamed the Earth to be considered a history buff. I can name you more information on Nazi Germany political structure at the time, the laws enacted, reasons why it became how it did, offensive tactics, etc, but I do not know every single symbol they used. Especially since *gasp* they actually used a lot of symbols, just like a lot of other militaries at the time for each branch and division. If you honestly believe that because I couldn't recognize that symbol at that moment when I first saw the photo, then you're not worth my time. Just sayin'! | |
even the swastika which is the most well known WW2 symbol actually originated in ancient India by Buddhists and Hindus .so no, not every symbol is universally recognized to mean the same thing .especially the less well known SS symbol . OT: if it's an honest mistake I can understand it , we should never be quick to accuse someone of racism when there is no actual hatred behind what they did. Just because Hitler was evil doesn't mean his mustache should go out of fashion. | |
How can you be a history buff without ever seeing a symbol of the SS? This would be like claiming to be an expert on science fiction and not knowing an iconic name like Asimov. It just makes no sense at all. I would argue it to be impossible. | |
Sorry.. hang on.. That's not even English script, it's a 'sig' rune, not the letter 's'. They did not stitch this flag themselves. Someone must have bought it, and since the only places which sell it are sites devoted to Nazi memorabilia, like the one above, you'd think someone would have had the grey matter to work out what they were buying. Any Jewish person in Europe, and probably most in America and Israel, has relatives who were murdered by people wearing that symbol. So sorry, yes, there is a story here, even if the story is the mind-blowing stupidity of the US marine corps, (which interestingly is the defence they're going with, says a lot) it's still in the public interest to know. If the people representing my country overseas were morons, I'd sure as hell want to know. For the record, no, it's not the symbol itself, I fully accept the right of actors, artists and even neo-nazis and racists to use the SS symbol knowingly, but being in the armed forces carries certain responsibilities, one of which is not posing with your nazi memorabilia. It shouldn't be too much to expect that if you don't know what a symbol means or has been used for, you shouldn't pose with it as if you support or identify with it. | |
Over reaction much? It looks nothing like the freaking Nazi symbol. Good christ the media likes to grasp at straws sometimes... Looks completely harmless to me. Moving on... | |
JUST MY OPINION[woops, let me turn off caps lock. why was that on?] It seems possible that some or all of the participants didn't know what they were actually participating in. At the same time however, I find it hard to believe that is the case. There may be some innocent victims here, but most of them were jerking around. | |
How could they not know what that meant? I know nearly nothing about WWII and the Nazis and even I know that was one of their symbols. At least one of them had to know. | |
Nazis also used an eagle. Just saying. | |
I was under the impression the second most famous symbol of Nazi Germany was the eagle. That and the swastika are the two things that come to mind when I think "Nazi" anyway, and honestly we didn't cover the SS much in our basic history class. We looked at the Nazis and how they rose to power, glossed over the finer details of their military organization, then went into the Holocaust before coming out the other end with D-Day and the end of the war. The only reason I know the SS symbol is because I watch the history channel now and then, and, not to insult these Marines, but the majority of them probably went straight from high school into the service. A basic high school education likely won't cover the SS much. Am I surprised at least one of them didn't know it? Ya, I am. It is definitely a facepalm moment, but I genuinely don't believe they would use the symbol if they knew what it represented. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I refuse to believe that ten people in a scout sniper unit in a military that fought against the Nazis and still has a rather strong hatred of them would even consider using that if they knew what it meant. | |
I think the point was there isn't anything inherent about it. If a baby was born & wasn't taught about the SS, then the baby wouldn't recognise that this symbol was used by them, just like using a middle finger is offensive in most of the West, and various other gestures in other parts of the world. It seems quite implausible that no-one knew about this, but I suppose there's always someone... | |
In all fairness, I myself didn't know that was the symbol of the SS but frankly, considering all the other photos of soldiers happily posing with things (humilated prisoners, corpses, horribly gruesome corpses such as a guy who's whole head was blown open, humiliated corpses, etc) frankly, THIS seems like the least offensive of stuff I've seen | |
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46329740/ns/us_news/t/marines-posed-nazi-ss-symbol-afghanistan/#.Tzc7zOP-_9o
I found this story when looking for a Current Event for my class, and my first reaction was facepalm. This is way to similar to the SS logo. People have linked pictures of replica SS flags that look exactly like it. I can't believe that no one there thought that it looked like the SS logo. People have also pointed out that the Marines have used this logo for Sniper Scouts for a long time. Their logo is different though. It isn't just the SS, it has Sniper Rifles, Skulls, etc. The SS part of their logo is actually a rather small part of the logo. The least USMC could do is only allow the full logo or change the font.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/02/marine-amos-apologizes-for-scout-sniper-nazi-ss-logo-021012/
This was an apology from the Marines. My thoughts are that if you have to apologize for a logo that you use, you probably shouldn't use it.
What do you think about this?