BrassButtons:

Volf99:
Legal is one of the main reasons I feel the way I do, but it wasn't the only reason.

If the law in the US changed, would that change your opinion?

As I brought up before, the lack of scaring and permanent bruising were also reasons why I felt it was abuse.

I'm guessing that "scaring" is supposed to be "scarring" (not trying to nitpick; just want to make sure I understand what you're saying).

I understand that those are two reasons why you don't consider spanking abuse (actually I think "permanent bruising" is a new criteria). My point was that those reasons are not the entirety of why spanking is not abuse in your opinion. I've been trying to understand your full reasoning for spanking not being abusive.

So far you're criteria involves whether it's illegal in the US, leaves "permanent bruises" (which isn't actually possible--I think you just mean long-lasting bruises), causes scarring, or is a punch to the face.

Is this an accurate summation of your criteria for judging whether an action is abusive or not?

more or less those are the reasons why I don't consider it abuse. Only addition I would make is that I was spanked as a child and looking back at it I don't think it was abusive behavior.

SurfinTaxt:

Monkeyman O'Brien:

SurfinTaxt:
what about people who beat kids for inconsistent things? What about people who hit their kids for no good reason at all? There are other ways to get through to them, hitting them is just primitive. People who beat their kids are just cavemen

...
What the fuck? What was the point of that comment?
That comment was on the same lines as someone saying sex between two consenting adults is fine then you coming in and asking "Well what about rape or paedophiles?"
See, maybe if your parents had hit you a little more you would stop and think about what you are saying.

I was hit plenty as a kid, and Its kept me from ever really developing a close bond with my parents. Its just not right, in fact its fucking cowardly, hitting a tiny defenseless human being just so you can feel more powerful. If you beat your kids, then you are a scum of the earth nothing

maybe your parents didn't properly apply spanking, but mine did and I don't hate them for it, nor do I have such a emotional motivated hatred of it like you seem to have.

SurfinTaxt:

Volf99:
Where you are focusing physical contact is different, and pain=/=abuse 100% of the time. As long as the pain can be proven to not be excessive(like breaking the skin or causing bruises), it is not abuse.

I dont care what the law says, if you intentionally cause physical pain and distress in a child to get them to stop doing whatever you dont want them to do, its abuse plain & simple.
Louis C. K. said it best, children seem to be the only people on the whole planet that its ok to hit. Everyone else will sue your ass

and I don't care that you seem to have some personal vendetta against spanking, it isn't abuse if don't in moderation/in moderation.

I don't know if I was particularly dumb as a kid, but I didn't find punishments always dissuaded me from repeating a bad thing.

I do think partly it was down to my parents, and this may be a generational thing, they're 75 now, but the answer to 'why' so often was 'because I said so!'. That's an incredibly frustrating thing for a child to keep hearing when they just want to understand the world more.

A spanking wasn't going to stop me wanting to know more stuff.

Of course, I'm nearly 40 and those were different times, and I don't believe for a moment that they were abusive in any way, I just wish they'd tried to explain things more instead of just deciding they were right. (I'd probably have accepted them being right if they'd just said 'because it's dangerous' or 'because it's not police and you'll upset people'.)

I can't help but think in part it was a sign of the times, and a certain arrogance of parenting back then that parents were right about everything, and despite not agreeing with all changes, I do think it's better that children get more attention, and not just a slap :)

Volf99:
No, spanking a child is not "beating them".

beat·ing
n.
An act of repeated hitting or striking.

How is that not spanking?

I generally believe in punishment of children as way to teach them a lesson with the hard way, only for their own protection, and to avoid repeating that mistake which could perhaps ruin their lives when they will become adults. However there is a limit for everything. The gunman father is a sad case of an uncivilized and deranged man who is very dangerous for both his family and society.

EternalFacepalm:

Volf99:
No, spanking a child is not "beating them".

beat·ing
n.
An act of repeated hitting or striking.

How is that not spanking?

By that definition, repeated high fives to the same person could be considered "beating them".

SurfinTaxt:

If you beat your kids, then you are a scum of the earth nothing

I agree.

Good thing that spanking and beating are two totally different things.

anthony87:

SurfinTaxt:

If you beat your kids, then you are a scum of the earth nothing

I agree.

Good thing that spanking and beating are two totally different things.

^^This sssoooo much

SurfinTaxt:

Volf99:
maybe your parents didn't properly apply spanking, but mine did and I don't hate them for it, nor do I have such a emotional motivated hatred of it like you seem to have.

What do you call a 200 lb man who hits his defenseless 50 lb kid?

Yep, a coward. Now a 200lb man that disciplines his kid by spanking is a normal parent.

Volf99:
more or less those are the reasons why I don't consider it abuse. Only addition I would make is that I was spanked as a child and looking back at it I don't think it was abusive behavior.

You didn't answer my first question: if US laws changed, would your opinion of spanking change?

Volf99:

SurfinTaxt:
What do you call a 200 lb man who hits his defenseless 50 lb kid?

Yep, a coward. Now a 200lb man that disciplines his kid by spanking is a normal parent.

Are you claiming that spanking is not hitting, or that kids being spanked are not defenseless?

why are people constantly confusing punishment with abuse in this thread? It was clearly stated in the title. Tough love is the way forward

I'm going to assume a few things here.

1. Most of those "oh, it's abuse!" folks, aren't parents themselves. For the record, I'm not either.

2. These same folks are assuming a spank is the first method of discipline.

On 1, fuck off.

On 2, take my word, it isn't - it's often the last, when all others have failed.

Hell no.

I really have little else to say on the matter. I even take the view that if making your child sit gingerly for a few days from a paddled arse if the most effective way to let your displeasure at their stupidity or selfishness be known then thats what you should do.

Its parenting 101 imo. If a child proves they cannot be mature and responsible with an item you have gifted, you take it away. If she had dared give that speech to her actual parents, she would have seen immediate consequences. She is learning a very important life lesson, never say or do ANYTHING that ultimately you are not prepared to do in full public view. Cos IRL, this is what really happens. Time to grow up.

SurfinTaxt:

Monkeyman O'Brien:

SurfinTaxt:
what about people who beat kids for inconsistent things? What about people who hit their kids for no good reason at all? There are other ways to get through to them, hitting them is just primitive. People who beat their kids are just cavemen

...
What the fuck? What was the point of that comment?
That comment was on the same lines as someone saying sex between two consenting adults is fine then you coming in and asking "Well what about rape or paedophiles?"
See, maybe if your parents had hit you a little more you would stop and think about what you are saying.

I was hit plenty as a kid, and Its kept me from ever really developing a close bond with my parents. Its just not right, in fact its fucking cowardly, hitting a tiny defenseless human being just so you can feel more powerful. If you beat your kids, then you are a scum of the earth nothing

Who's talking about beating kids?

This is about discipline using corporal punishment. When I swore as a child in front of my parents, I recieved a clip round the ear.

A short, sharp, simple, and effective punishment that taught me not to swear in their earshot.

They could have done all sorts of other things - grounded me, taken away toys, etc. etc. (And for various other things I did out of line with being a decent human being, they did), but for the sake of swearing at a video game or rugby match on TV, why would they need to?

You've taken the idea of corporal punishment delivered in a fair, reasonable, safe and consistent manner (consistent as in, fitting the crime, rather than consistently getting hit, I think I got two clips round the ear for swearing and have never sworn in front of them since)... And you've changed it to "Alcoholic dad beating the shit out of his young for no reason".

Fuck you, and your straw-man argument.

For what it's worth, I think 99% of the time, there's no need to hit children. Ever. But that 1% of the time, parents should not fear the law for merely enforcing discipline.

Reasonable parenting = suitable punishments/ deserved rewards

Bad parenting = No punishment / crazy absurd punishments / undeserved rewards (i.e you got 4 D's and 3 C's in your GCSES? here have £100 then)

Punishment teaches kids what is wrong, and what is right, if they don't know this they grow up learning that they can do what they like .... this is wrong!

I don't think physical punishment works very well. when u hit your kid, they fear your hand, not the action. When you can;t hit anymore, they go right back to the action.

It just makes sense

A punishment is not abusing the child, it's merely taking away something they were given (by the parent mostly) like a right or object. The child doesn't need that to survive, it merely wants to use said object. However beating a kid is considered abuse, but a slap to the head is a great tool for parents, and should be allowed. Or a good old fashioned butt-spanking. It's a shame people get so butthurt (:D ) about that, when they were most likely raised to fear them, and thereby learned how to behave.
Some of the little brats scurrying around need to be disciplined. If I hear one more 9-year old call me a motherf*cker or similar, I'm going to stare him into tears. And then I'll slap him perhaps. Ahhh slapping. Seriously, we knew how to behave when we were twelve compared to the little pricks walking around today. And our -semi- generation was already considered badly behaved. *sigh* A lot has changed in the 5 years since I was twelve.

also, a lot of people say that hitting a child is bad, I am basically a kid myself too, but I think different. I was slapped and spanked quite often when I was younger, and it taught me where lines lay. I was disallowed from the pc or consoles when I was slightly bad, but when I had done something really bad, I'd pay. It was a great way to keep in line, because I feared getting hit. A punishment these days is basically shit, You can sneak past them easily. No pc? I-Phone4! A risk of getting slapped is something you'll really consider.

I feel that many of the baby boomer generation came in thinking that you can spoil the kid and they will learn to not be a menace in time... This became more so with the generation after and has been making each new generation seem more roudy, rude, disrespectful, and think the world owes them everything... This is my perspective as the generation after the baby boomer generation. It seem to be ok to dress like a bum or paint yourself more as a sex object... I feel children need more discipline and parents need to be more involved in a childs development. I don't agree with a person that hits a child in the face or uses a belt, but spanking them on the knee or the fear of being publicly humilated can humble a child and make them think before acting like a fool. Becoming physical should be a last resort, but it should not be considered abuse if it is their own parent doing it and it is to scare the child straight and not to cause harm.

Electro Dave:
No it's not abuse to give them a smacked bottom once in a while if you have exhausted all other alternatives.

But there is obviously a fine line between slapping their bum as a form of discipline and out right abuse.
The way I see it, it should be used as a last resort for the unruly.

Someone didn't read the original post and just responded based on an assumption of the thread's topic.

SOMEONE'S FACE SHOULD BE MIGHTY RED RIGHT ABOUT NOW.

God no.

Is punishing anything for doing something wrong abuse? My parents raised four kids up who all turned out to be decent members of society and without any issues. They used to punish us when we were doing things we shouldn't have, thing's that we repeated after being told not to.

There is always the case of "a child doesn't know any better" which for the most part is ok the first time a child does something, like if they get a book and rip it up. They didn't know not to do that. They get told it's wrong. They do it again, punishment time.

That father shooting up his daughters laptop, I think it's a good punishment. She sounds like many of this worlds first world problem teens. Too much belief in self entitlement and not enough get up and go attitude. Thanks MTV, for showing kids the lives of the spoiled brats of the mega-rich.

nope. I was punished for a lot of things and I deserved it :D I actually think that I wasn't punished enough. Usually it was a whipping or a spanking

I know the video you're talking about and I commend the guy for actually doing something to teach his spoiled little bitch of a daughter exactly what happens when you try to pull shit over on your parents. And he didn't lay a finger on his daughter so how in the hell is that considered abuse in the first place? Personally, I wouldn't jump to spanking a child for doing something wrong, but if they keep pushing it and don't learn from less severe punishments then what else can you do?

BrassButtons:

Volf99:
more or less those are the reasons why I don't consider it abuse. Only addition I would make is that I was spanked as a child and looking back at it I don't think it was abusive behavior.

You didn't answer my first question: if US laws changed, would your opinion of spanking change?

Volf99:

SurfinTaxt:
What do you call a 200 lb man who hits his defenseless 50 lb kid?

Yep, a coward. Now a 200lb man that disciplines his kid by spanking is a normal parent.

Are you claiming that spanking is not hitting, or that kids being spanked are not defenseless?

Yeah. Spanking is technically hitting.

Still doesn't make it abuse though.

EternalFacepalm:

Volf99:
No, spanking a child is not "beating them".

beat·ing
n.
An act of repeated hitting or striking.

How is that not spanking?

Because a spank is generally a single strike to a nonvital area. If someone pulls out a belt and just starts indescriminately whacking a child then yes it is beating and is horrible. Getting smacked once or twice on the rump for doing something wrong is a fair punishment.