Cop Tasers Fleeing Handcuffed Girl, Head injuries put her in vegetative state

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While it was pretty stupid to run from the cops, I don't think he should've used a Taser. That close, he could've easily chased her down. She couldn't pull a knife, gun, lightsaber, etc, and he was right there. Bad call in my opinion.

Rednog:
What if he belly flopped onto her and on the way down she cracked her skull too would you call that murder?

Sorry for bugging ya but the imagery I got from that made me burst into quite the laughing fit...

...does that mean I'm a terrible person?

OP: there is no clear victim here... well, there is, BUT it was a mistake to run from the cops, it was a mistake to use the taser and it was an unfortunate event that followed... I think that nobody is really at fault here...

Aris Khandr:
I can't really feel too bad for her. It takes a special kind of stupid to run from the police AFTER you're already handcuffed. And it really isn't their job to run you down if you run. If I had the tool to stop you from running right now, rather than continuing to chase you for however long, I'd do it too.

Yes. Yes it is their job. Tasers are designed to be used as a medium between yelling and shooting

Yes she was a dumbass for running, but she posed no threat to the officer. In my mind, this isn't a question of whether or not the cop is in the wrong because the woman ended up in a vegetative state. This is a question of the morality of nonlethal devices such as pepper spray and tasers. They are being used far too frequently in situations that do not warrant that amount of force.

An excellent TED talk on the topic can be found here (although admittedly it focuses on Australian law)
http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_coleman_the_moral_dangers_of_non_lethal_weapons.html

This is all pretty simple if you ask me. The cop didn't make the decision for her to go do a bunch of coke. Somehow I would wager that when she decided to get into a vehicle, thus risking the lives of countless innocent motorists, the cop wasn't there with a gun to her head forcing her to do so. Finally, after she was apprehended and in police custody I can almost guarantee that the cop didn't force her to try and escape. This woman made all of those choices on her own.

I don't worry about getting put into a vegetative as a result of deciding to flee from the cops because I've committed multiple hit and runs after doing a shit ton of coke. Ya know why? Because I don't do that kind of thing!

The bottom line is I don't really give a flying toss what happens to criminals at the hands of the police. You don't want to get tased/beaten/shot by police then don't break the law. If you go out and break the law then don't expect to find any pity because YOUR choices have put you in a bad situation.

Wrapping this up the woman has no one to blame for her condition but herself. The cop was well with in his legal rights to use a taser to bring her down. She is in the condition she is in now because of her choices and she has no one to blame but herself.

Chevalier noir:

Blue Hero:

She ran while handcuffed, she got tasered. Her fault in my eyes. The vegetative state is just an unfortunate accident and I don't think the police officer should be punished for it.

Again, people act as if this is somehow true. The officer is in violation of his own training on several levels. He broke the rules he swore to work by, that is generally something you get punished for.

no... in Florida the taser protocols

"FHP policy on Electronic Control Devices states that a member should not use the device on a handcuffed prisoner, it also provides that there may be situations that conflict with this policy."

the last part is the important part.. now it was investigated and,by a board of his peers, he was cleared... that IS EXACTLY how our legal system works... you can armchair lawyer all you want but legally he was in the right and as such has been acquitted... there is a reason why we use juries and judges instead of just a clerk checking reading the law and letter for letter enforcing it... you can have any opinion you want but it doesn't matter because as far as the law is concerned... fleeing to resist arrest IS a valid reason to use 'reasonable' force and what is or isn't reasonable force is for others in the judicial system to determine not you... hell I personally think OJ did it doesn't mean I walk around claiming factually that he is a criminal because that is slander/libel... which is technically illegal and what you are doing against that officer right now

again shit happens, in the end it comes down to that she was an adult made a stupid choice and something bad happened now she is dealing with the consequences... the fact they were compounded because of an unpredictable accident doesn't matter... boo-hoo sucks to be her...

You don't run from the police. Everyone knows if the police have to come and get you, they're bringing an arse kicking with them. Or in this case, a taser.

.No.:

Unfortunately, "Upstanding Cop Does Job" will never make headlines.

Indeed, backwards media is backwards. Only bad things make headlines.

The girl was wrong for resisiting arrest and fleeing even while handcuffed. The police officer was wrong for resorting to using a weapon on someone who posed no threat.

They were both wrong. Can't we be happy with that? I see no hero, no justification for the actions of both people involved... Just two people who both did the wrong thing.

Sometimes nobody is right.

daveman247:

.No.:

Unfortunately, "Upstanding Cop Does Job" will never make headlines.

Indeed, backwards media is backwards. Only bad things make headlines.

good news doesn't get the high ratings like bad news does... the News is a business not a charity

I agree that she evaded arrest but that is it. If someone starts attacking me and I defend and they fall on the floor, I have to stop, I do not have the right to keep attacking just to make sure they cant attack me anymore. There is a limit on acceptable force and the cop shouldn't have used the taser, there was no danger of her harming anyone, she was handcuffed and the cops are there to minimise harm not to cause it. If you have cops that do that then you really need to raise the bar on entry.

Rednog:
And it isn't murder, it isn't like he pulled out a gun and unloaded into her skull.

Might has well have, as she's now brain dead the only difference between her and a corpse is a heartbeat. she was two feet in front of him, he had back-up and had the advantage of have free hands.

Cop should be locked up, it was lazy, reckless and pretty much ended a life.

I think this music video applies quite nicely to this thread...never thought I'd get a chance to embed this and have it actually be on topic.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Go Cops as sung by Ruck Ruck Ali.

Liquidacid23:

Chevalier noir:

Blue Hero:

She ran while handcuffed, she got tasered. Her fault in my eyes. The vegetative state is just an unfortunate accident and I don't think the police officer should be punished for it.

Again, people act as if this is somehow true. The officer is in violation of his own training on several levels. He broke the rules he swore to work by, that is generally something you get punished for.

the last part is the important part.. now it was investigated and,by a board of his peers, he was cleared... that IS EXACTLY how our legal system works... you can armchair lawyer all you want but legally he was in the right and as such has been acquitted... there is a reason why we use juries and judges instead of just a clerk checking reading the law and letter for letter enforcing it... you can have any opinion you want but it doesn't matter because as far as the law is concerned... fleeing to resist arrest IS a valid reason to use 'reasonable' force and what is or isn't reasonable force is for others in the judicial system to determine not you... hell I personally think OJ did it doesn't mean I walk around claiming factually that he is a criminal because that is slander/libel... which is technically illegal and what you are doing against that officer right now

"situations that conflict with this policy." Should not include a 20 year old 100 pound suspect attempting to flee. Police are trained not to use excessive force unless the subject presents a clear and present danger to herself or others. The suspect fulfilled neither of those conditions on her own.

I'm not going around claiming that the cop is a criminal either, necessarily. Just that he was in violation of the above quote regarding tasers and excessive force. That he got acquitted anyway is another matter entirely. That the court ruled in favor of the cop here is nothing short of appalling, but you are right that would be my opinion.

I'm just glad that in a country where the government can lock you up indefinitely on no charge(cause that is how our legal system works now) you seem to think the courts ruling in this case is ok. But your right, how we feel about this is another subject, I do think its bull though. Don't know how your comfortable with it, but hey.

Otherwise, yhea. I guess technically I have to concede your point.

"I know that I can't just jump on her. I'm three times her weight. If we go down, one, or both of us, is going to get hurt. The taser is the intermediate weapon of choice," he says.

Quoted from some article mentioned earlier. His choices were pretty much tackle her or tase her. The taser, she might not have been hurt, tackling her would DEFINITELY have hurt her. It's unfortunate that she was injured, but it's more unfortunate that people are stupid enough to be calling him a murderer.

Aris Khandr:
I can't really feel too bad for her. It takes a special kind of stupid to run from the police AFTER you're already handcuffed. And it really isn't their job to run you down if you run. If I had the tool to stop you from running right now, rather than continuing to chase you for however long, I'd do it too.

Actually it is exactly their job. Tazer is only supposed to be used for restraining out of control people.

Liquidacid23:

daveman247:

.No.:

Unfortunately, "Upstanding Cop Does Job" will never make headlines.

Indeed, backwards media is backwards. Only bad things make headlines.

good news doesn't get the high ratings like bad news does... the News is a business not a charity

True, but SURELY there is a happy medium? In most news papers/ tv it is literally ALL bad.

I guess people are quite happy depressing themselves :/

Backwards people are backwards.

Chevalier noir:

RoBi3.0:

Was the Cops reactions over blown probably, but ultimately her condition is a direct result of her choice to run. Had she not run she would not have been tased. had she not run giving the cop an opportunity to tase her she would not been a vegetable.

And again she was not tased because she may have been accused of 2 hit and runs she was tased trying to flee from arrest. Which is illegal, so regardless of her involvement to the suspected hit and runs she was still breaking the law.

Furthermore I am not really arguing the legal or moral right and wrong of this. I am arguing that the simplest way this could have been prevented is from the women to have not tried to flee in the first place. She made the choice to run first. The fat cop's decision to taser her came later and was the direct result of the women's decision to run, therefore it is her fault.

As a rule I assume all Cops are dicks and therefore try my hardest not to give them a reason to shoot at me.

I'm not standing here accusing the cop of murder, what happened to the girl was arguably both their faults. But I'm not putting any blame for her injuries on anyone.

Yes, fleeing from arrest is illegal. Yes that means she was breaking the law. Those are facts. It is also true that the cop using his taser on a handcuffed fleeing suspect was also wrong, a violation of his code of conduct and his officer training.

Before any emotion enters into this, without blaming anyone for her brain injuries, the cop is still in the wrong for using the taser. That is also a black and white clear as crystal fact.

I'm just irritated at the number of people who think the cop was justified using that much force when the rules the police are sworn to uphold say otherwise.

He is a professional authority figure and they should be held to their own standards at least.

Rarely is anything a crystal clear fact, especially in the heat of the moment. Here is a quote from the article.

article:
An Office of Inspector General Investigation Unit report states: "Although the FHP policy on Electronic Control Devices states that a member should not use the device on a handcuffed prisoner, it also provides that there may be situations that conflict with this policy."

The report goes on to state: "In this situation, Maudsley ... removed one of her handcuffs while in the back of Cole's patrol car, and moved her handcuffs from behind her back, to in front of her body, as she attempted to flee the FHP Station. In addition, Maudsley was running towards US Highway 19 which is a high volume road."

The policy on tasering handcuffed individuals is written in such away that provides a gray area where use of a taser on a handcuffed individual is justified.

So apparently the girl had proven proficient at escaping handcuffs so it was not likely that if give enough time she would remain handcuffed. She was also attempting to flee into a busy highway, which made her action potentially harmful to more then just herself.

Whither right or wrong I understand why he did it given the information he had on hand in the heat of the moment.

What is clear is that the girl made a decision to try to run from the cops, and now has to deal with the consequences.

Chevalier noir:

Liquidacid23:

Chevalier noir:

Again, people act as if this is somehow true. The officer is in violation of his own training on several levels. He broke the rules he swore to work by, that is generally something you get punished for.

the last part is the important part.. now it was investigated and,by a board of his peers, he was cleared... that IS EXACTLY how our legal system works... you can armchair lawyer all you want but legally he was in the right and as such has been acquitted... there is a reason why we use juries and judges instead of just a clerk checking reading the law and letter for letter enforcing it... you can have any opinion you want but it doesn't matter because as far as the law is concerned... fleeing to resist arrest IS a valid reason to use 'reasonable' force and what is or isn't reasonable force is for others in the judicial system to determine not you... hell I personally think OJ did it doesn't mean I walk around claiming factually that he is a criminal because that is slander/libel... which is technically illegal and what you are doing against that officer right now

"situations that conflict with this policy." Should not include a 20 year old 100 pound suspect attempting to flee. Police are trained not to use excessive force unless the subject presents a clear and present danger to herself or others. The suspect fulfilled neither of those conditions on her own.

I'm not going around claiming that the cop is a criminal either, necessarily. Just that he was in violation of the above quote regarding tasers and excessive force. That he got acquitted anyway is another matter entirely.

I'm just glad that in a country where the government can lock you up indefinitely on no charge you seem to think the courts ruling in this case is ok. But your right, how we feel about this is another subject, I do think its bull though. Don't know how your comfortable with it, but hey.

I have APSD so I'm comfortable with it because I don't give a shit about her or him

but as I said the law is, sometimes unfortunately, the law and our personal opinions don't matter... no matter if you think his use of force was excessive or not the people who actually have the task of determining that have and someone who is acquitted is innocent by all definitions that count... you have to take the good and the bad no system is perfect nor will you always agree with the outcomes... life is and never will be fair nothing you can do but accept it for what it is and move on

daveman247:

Liquidacid23:

daveman247:

Indeed, backwards media is backwards. Only bad things make headlines.

good news doesn't get the high ratings like bad news does... the News is a business not a charity

True, but SURELY there is a happy medium? In most news papers/ tv it is literally ALL bad.

I guess people are quite happy depressing themselves :/

Backwards people are backwards.

nah man they always throw in that 1 minute piece on some hard up little kid overcoming the odds or some cute pet in between the horrible hyperbole about some national event and the grizzly murder of a family... lol

I look at it like any other TV show... how fking boring would a show be if no one ever gave the lead character a problem and he/she just walked around having an awesome peaceful life all the time?

I'm not saying that it's "good" that those things bad things are happening... just that they are more interesting

Aris Khandr:
I can't really feel too bad for her. It takes a special kind of stupid to run from the police AFTER you're already handcuffed. And it really isn't their job to run you down if you run. If I had the tool to stop you from running right now, rather than continuing to chase you for however long, I'd do it too.

Thank you for summarizing my thoughts on this matter. that is all.

They are both wrong in this situation and both were rather stupid too. The girl fleeing in handcuffs is just plain dumb because even if you get away how are you going to get them off. The cop is also dumb because I'm pretty sure being handcuffed hinders one's ability to run. He totally could have caught her with a little more effort plus when he tasered her she was within arm's reach.

When you break it down they are both at fault anybody bothering to take one side over the other is just completely ruling out the fact that they can both be wrong. The cop should be punished for his actions and the girl should not get away scot free because the cop was overweight and too lazy to actually chase her the extra five feet it would have taken to catch her.

Honestly? I think this serves her right. You don't try to run away from the police, especially when you've been handcuffed. She was a total fucking idiot and she got what was coming to her.

Since when did Tasers become "non lethal"? They where introduced as "less lethal" because they still entail risks, like in this case when a person falls over or if they have a pre existing medical condition.

7moreDead:
If she performed two hit'n'runs then this lass clearly has no regards for anyones state of health so why should we concern ourselves with her?

Imo she had it coming.

My thoughts exactly.

Also, I don't care what the situation was; she was under arrest, and people that run from the cops whether it be already handcuffed or in some kind of getaway, the only one at fault if something happens to the criminals and they get hurt, it is their fault only.

Again:

If a person is under arrest and is in handcuffs, he or she better damn well sit down, shut up, and wait to be processed. If that person runs it is his or her fault that he or she gets hurt.

I'm getting sick and tired of these threads where people are basically saying, "Aaawww the poor criminal got hurt doing something wrong. Poor poor, criminal, those mean old cops are tyrants that need to be fired because they are doing their jobs."

You know, I'm reading this and people are saying the girl deserved it and whatnot, and I have to ask, what kind of justice do you believe in?

Resisting arrest is not a crime for which you deserve to die (in fact, no-one deserves to die for anything, and luckily the British justice system agrees with me).

She was a drugged up, handcuffed, tiny girl who was a few feet from the officer. She was hardly going to run off and disappear over the border, only to re-emerge several years later as some kind of criminal mastermind, there was no need to jeopardise her life with such excessive force.

People are so quick to apologise for cops here on this website.

Blablahb:

Hero in a half shell:
No, in your analogy the person had done absolutely nothing wrong

They were talking back to me. How dare they upset the authoritarian order where the one in uniform is always right.

Much like running away, talking is clearly a good grounds for beating someone up mercilessly, don't you agree? Actually, talking to someone and disagreeing with them is obviously more agressive than running away, so it's an even better reason.

Jesus Christ, would you stop with that bullshit? She was running away after slipping out of her handcuffs twice, and had she been able to run away she would have A. Been screwed over by the handcuffs, or B. gotten out of them and would be able to pose a danger to the public again. He is clearly unfit for service in the shape he's in, but the girl wouldn't have had the accident if she didn't try to run away in the first place. Did he taze her, then run up to her and stomp on her face? No, he tazed her, and then she fell down and hit her head. BOTH of them are at fault here, stop trying to act like the cop was 100% at fault.

And your comparison is complete shit, too.

Blablahb:

Hero in a half shell:
No, in your analogy the person had done absolutely nothing wrong

They were talking back to me. How dare they upset the authoritarian order where the one in uniform is always right.

Much like running away, talking is clearly a good grounds for beating someone up mercilessly, don't you agree? Actually, talking to someone and disagreeing with them is obviously more agressive than running away, so it's an even better reason.

Hero in a half shell:
In the actual event the person already guilty of several crimes

I wasn't aware that in the US trials had been abolished for charges other than terrorism and copyright infringement as well. Since when has that been?

Hero in a half shell:
Yes, and in cases that the police officer cannot physically catch an offender what do they do? Just give up.

Exactly. Just about everybody gets caught later on anyway, or report themselves because living a fugitive sucks.

Hero in a half shell:
I agree that his physical state is a disgrace, and this guy is unfit for purpose, but the girl was not "peacefull" nor was the violence "deadly".

She had cuffs on and was running *away*. How can that possibly be violent? And she's dead. How could the violence not be deadly? Besides, like others have already argued, even US policeman are trained to understand what tasing someone does. That policeman made a concious decision to expose someone to grave harm, resulting in death, rather than trying to run after her.

And for that decision, he would've been punished in any justice system.

Hero in a half shell:
You said it, not me: "policemen try to enforce the law and arrest criminals with minimal force." using a tazer is a non-lethal method to stop someone breaking the law.

Which is tied to rules. Rules like "Don't kill people if you can just grab a hold of them". Although obviously, that rule didn't make it into the US police handbook. Much like was shown in the summary executions of Kenneth Harding and Michael Nida, and many other cases of weapon-crazed US cops shooting first and checking if it was allowed later.

And they wonder why in the US, more policemen are killed in a year than in most countries in a century. Well, because some offender quite rightly think "It's you or me, and I got these legal guns here anyway, so..."

Hero in a half shell:
Again, there was no intention of killing her.

Which is why he should be sacked from the police, and convicted for manslaughter, but not murder.

Hero in a half shell:
His only intent was aprehending her with minimal harm to both him and her.

That's not true. He used something close to maximal violence to aprehend her. The only more violent option would've been to draw his firearm and perform an extrajudicial execution on the spot.

Wow. So, like, you're just a really, really dumb person, aren't you? That's cool, I guess.

Dr Snakeman:

Blablahb:
le super snip

Wow. So, like, you're just a really, really dumb person, aren't you? That's cool, I guess.

No he isn't, he's a troll.
Watch for him on the forums, he trolls with regularity. Just thought to let you know.

Radoh:

Dr Snakeman:

Blablahb:
le super snip

Wow. So, like, you're just a really, really dumb person, aren't you? That's cool, I guess.

No he isn't, he's a troll.
Watch for him on the forums, he trolls with regularity. Just thought to let you know.

Oh...

Oops. *sheepish grin* I guess reporting him would be the better option? As opposed to posting something that could get me probation?

Duly noted.

Dr Snakeman:

Radoh:

Dr Snakeman:

Wow. So, like, you're just a really, really dumb person, aren't you? That's cool, I guess.

No he isn't, he's a troll.
Watch for him on the forums, he trolls with regularity. Just thought to let you know.

Oh...

Oops. *sheepish grin* I guess reporting him would be the better option? As opposed to posting something that could get me probation?

Duly noted.

Hey, no real shame, we all get trolled in due time here.
But you must admit that it was a rather fantastic troll though.

The fact that she is now brain damaged is irrelevant. No one would care if she had been fine afterwards.

What I see is a criminal running away from the police, and he had to stop her. That's what tasers are for. Can't say I feel sorry for the woman. It sucks for her and her family, but that's life. Although cops really should be a lot fitter than this.

Chevalier noir:

deathninja:
So, LEO goes for less-lethal option, gets pilloried for it?

Even if you take a riot cop in his/her prime, a one on one subjugation doesn't end in hugs and puppies. Tasers have risks, but far less than a 9mm hole in your skull, I'd call it a reasonable call on a fleeing suspect.

Not that I would have liked her to faceplannt and all, but that's always a risk.

"The taser was fine because the cop didn't shoot her."

This is full stop the dumbest thing getting repeated in this thread. Not only does it imply that what was done here was justified according to police code of conduct, the law or common sense but also that it was fine because its a step up from the worst possible response to this?

Again, the cop tasered a suspect and this is ok because he didn't kill her instead. Just...wow...are some of you aware that suspects are innocent until proven guilty? Or does this fantasy martial police state some of you occupy not work that way? Judge Dread would be proud of due process like that.

Police are trained to respond to situations with as little violence as possible. Pulling a taser on a cuffed fleeing suspect is a very big breach of his code of conduct. It was flat out the wrong thing to do. The first thing hammered into your head when taught about sidearms is when it is never ok to use them.

The proper response should have been to physically subdue the suspect. That is how they are trained, those are the rules. He broke them, end of story.

So, he tazed her, which dropped her to the ground

But he SHOULD have tackled her to the ground adding his own (Superior) momentum and his own (greater) weight to her fall DRIVING her into the ground and causing even more injuries?

Yeah bravo. If I had a choice I would much rather be tazered than have a 250 pound man driving me into the ground. Atleast when I am tazered it is only my body weight bringing me down instead of all of the added force of a whole second person on top of me.

Though you come off like you don't care one iota about the suspect, more that you just prefer a reason to rant about cops, so really I am not surprised you would prefer to see her more damaged with the possibility of the cop being injured as well, instead of her just being injured.

Dr Snakeman:

Radoh:

Dr Snakeman:

Wow. So, like, you're just a really, really dumb person, aren't you? That's cool, I guess.

No he isn't, he's a troll.
Watch for him on the forums, he trolls with regularity. Just thought to let you know.

Oh...

Oops. *sheepish grin* I guess reporting him would be the better option? As opposed to posting something that could get me probation?

Duly noted.

Well he has already broken the forum code of conduct by advocating running from the police which is a crime.. But I almost guarantee you that the forum mods are too busy looking for people who say piracy isn't so bad to bother actually enforcing the rules of conduct :P

Whether or not she was technically resisting arrest (I'd say that she was), he really didn't have to tase her.

This is pretty disturbing, how could you say she deserved that? She is brain dead (assuming that is the same as being in a vegative state). Sure she shouldn't have run, but to say that she deserved I mean that's really harsh. That's a pretty low way of thinking in my opinion

GrandmaFunk:
that department even explicitly states in their guidelines NOT to use tasers on suspects that are fleeing or in handcuffs, for this very reason.

This is kind of weird; many times in cases like this, the procedure is ambiguous or permissive. The policy is, in essence, partially at fault. Not completely, because police are not automatons, but still.

Having policy that explicitly prohibits it is odd. And makes it a little more distressing.

Liquidacid23:

what? have you never been tazered? cuffed or not you can't catch yourself when you fall you have no muscle control ... by your logic every single person who ever tazers anyone is at fault for all injuries of the person they tazered no matter the reason... this was just an unfortunate accident which was her fault for fleeing

Tasing a running suspect greatly increases the risk, making it directly foreseeable damage. Which is why, you know, there is policy against such an action.

Blablahb:
That's plain stupid to say. You face years and years in prison under barbaric conditions for something as small as drug possesion, the cop they send after you is an obese slob who can never keep up, and you say running is a weird choice?

Running is the only logical choice in that situation.

Yes, as little as drug possession:

Maudsley was arrested for her alleged involvement in two hit-and-run crashes and driving without a license.

Hit and runs are kind of a serious thing.

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