How might intergalactic travel be accomplished?

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I have a good feeling intergalactic travel will happen because of reasons.

OT: I have absolutely no idea. I don't know the theories behind it. I've heard of wormholes and stuff but you already excluded that.

How might it be accomplished? I couldn't say. I study english and the arts. I'm not a man of science. But I know a good first step. Vote for Newt Gingrich. He'll colonize the moon.

Mass effect relays which we do not know how they work

Something 1 billion times faster than the speed of light... any thoughts?
Controlled wormholes that work like the portals in the game portal?

Ledan:
Faster than light speed is some sort of containment field (maybe even tunnels). Im still not convinced that its impossible for an object to travel faster than the speed of light. So well just make objects go faster than the speed of light... if we cant predict the location then well find some way to do so.

The whole concept of 4 dimensional space-time and the theory of relativity may actually be wrong in significant ways. There are currently a group scientists, based mostly in England, that are trying to come up with an alternative theory. One that may also get rid of the disunity between Relativity and quantum physics. No idea whether they are onto something or not, but still extremely interesting.

Barda236:

Ledan:
Faster than light speed is some sort of containment field (maybe even tunnels). Im still not convinced that its impossible for an object to travel faster than the speed of light. So well just make objects go faster than the speed of light... if we cant predict the location then well find some way to do so.

The whole concept of 4 dimensional space-time and the theory of relativity may actually be wrong in significant ways. There are currently a group scientists, based mostly in England, that are trying to come up with an alternative theory. One that may also get rid of the disunity between Relativity and quantum physics. No idea whether they are onto something or not, but still extremely interesting.

Thats actual really interesting, do you know of any articles/websites/things that have more information? Ive always felt that something was off with parts of relativity and quantum physics, especially the speed limit. I just don't know enough about physics to know if im just misunderstanding or if there is an actual probem. My main concern has always been that it doesn't seem very... logical. There is some assumption, or some missuse of logic that i think is wrong. and like Zeno's (greek philosopher who provided a proof of how movement is impossible) theory in philosophy, it will take a long time before we figure out what is wrong with current advanced physics.

Carbonite storage.... cryo storage and shift changes every few months... first we'd have to perfect energy sources that can last years, sensors beyond visual so as not to run into micro-meteor showers and get pwned in vacuum, many other tech's are needed prior to deep space travel
beyond the propulsion/spatial movement area. Air scrubbers/recyclers, food storage or mini-farms (BIG SHIPS?)...

Ledan:

Barda236:

Ledan:
Faster than light speed is some sort of containment field (maybe even tunnels). Im still not convinced that its impossible for an object to travel faster than the speed of light. So well just make objects go faster than the speed of light... if we cant predict the location then well find some way to do so.

The whole concept of 4 dimensional space-time and the theory of relativity may actually be wrong in significant ways. There are currently a group scientists, based mostly in England, that are trying to come up with an alternative theory. One that may also get rid of the disunity between Relativity and quantum physics. No idea whether they are onto something or not, but still extremely interesting.

Thats actual really interesting, do you know of any articles/websites/things that have more information? Ive always felt that something was off with parts of relativity and quantum physics, especially the speed limit. I just don't know enough about physics to know if im just misunderstanding or if there is an actual probem. My main concern has always been that it doesn't seem very... logical. There is some assumption, or some missuse of logic that i think is wrong. and like Zeno's (greek philosopher who provided a proof of how movement is impossible) theory in philosophy, it will take a long time before we figure out what is wrong with current advanced physics.

It was in the February issue of Popular Science I believe. Cannot for the life of me remember the name of the article. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow and send you a message.

Ever seen Dune? I say "seen" because the books don't really go into it. But yeah, you just fold space and use mental stimulants to help you navigate.

My fingers are crossed that somehow the LHC will find a way to access FTL travel. It's possible, I mean, they're discovering new stuff with that thing already, and not only that they also managed to create particles that exist at FTL speeds.

One can only hope.

Well, if theoretical wormhole travel and warp-drives (theoretically possible. and I assume you mean something like warp drives when you say "hyperspace") are out, then the only other option left is conventional methods of travel.

Seeing that even our most theoretical method of sub-light travel would still fall short of light-speed, it would literally take billions upon billions of years to traverse the distances needed to get to other galaxies. And that's just within our local group.

Truth is, unless we can find a way to travel significantly faster than the speed of light, intergalactic travel will not only be unfeasible but virtually impossible. It's more likely that by the time you could reach another galaxy, it would have moved out far beyond your reach. (universal expansion, and all that)

In fact, without faster-than-light travel, it's not likely we'll ever go beyond our own solar system.

Space is just too damn big.

TakeyB0y2:
My fingers are crossed that somehow the LHC will find a way to access FTL travel. It's possible, I mean, they're discovering new stuff with that thing already, and not only that they also managed to create particles that exist at FTL speeds.

One can only hope.

Actually, they didn't. From what I've heard, it was a fluke. An error in timing and/or measurement.

It's a shame really. But at the same time, it means that Einstein is still right.

Barda236:

It was in the February issue of Popular Science I believe. Cannot for the life of me remember the name of the article. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow and send you a message.

Would this be in regards to Super-string / M-theory? Specifically, concepts like Calabi Yau manifolds? The idea that beyond the usual four dimensions (height, width, depth, and time) there exists tiny, folded up pockets of extra-dimensional space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabi%E2%80%93Yau_manifold

Ledan:

Barda236:

Ledan:
Faster than light speed is some sort of containment field (maybe even tunnels). Im still not convinced that its impossible for an object to travel faster than the speed of light. So well just make objects go faster than the speed of light... if we cant predict the location then well find some way to do so.

The whole concept of 4 dimensional space-time and the theory of relativity may actually be wrong in significant ways. There are currently a group scientists, based mostly in England, that are trying to come up with an alternative theory. One that may also get rid of the disunity between Relativity and quantum physics. No idea whether they are onto something or not, but still extremely interesting.

Thats actual really interesting, do you know of any articles/websites/things that have more information? Ive always felt that something was off with parts of relativity and quantum physics, especially the speed limit. I just don't know enough about physics to know if im just misunderstanding or if there is an actual probem. My main concern has always been that it doesn't seem very... logical. There is some assumption, or some missuse of logic that i think is wrong. and like Zeno's (greek philosopher who provided a proof of how movement is impossible) theory in philosophy, it will take a long time before we figure out what is wrong with current advanced physics.

It's not a matter of nothing being able to go faster than light-speed, it's a matter of nothing other than light being able to accelerate to or beyond that speed. The amount of energy required to accelerate a mass to those speeds eventually spirals out to infinity. It's just not mathematically possible.

Which is where the concepts of wormholes and warp-drives come into play. They allow an object to go faster than light, without actually having to accelerate to that speed. (by shortening the actual distance they travel between two points in space-time)

If we already knew ways to effectively travel space, we'd be doing it. All we can do at this time is speculate, and frankly where we go in the black holes and hyperspace discussion will probably be WAY more fantastical and complicated than whatever we come up with in 10, 15, 20 or however many years it takes us to make the break through.

It will probably be mind-bogglingly mundane.

Vigormortis:

Barda236:

It was in the February issue of Popular Science I believe. Cannot for the life of me remember the name of the article. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow and send you a message.

Would this be in regards to Super-string / M-theory? Specifically, concepts like Calabi Yau manifolds? The idea that beyond the usual four dimensions (height, width, depth, and time) there exists tiny, folded up pockets of extra-dimensional space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabi%E2%80%93Yau_manifold

Ledan:

Barda236:

The whole concept of 4 dimensional space-time and the theory of relativity may actually be wrong in significant ways. There are currently a group scientists, based mostly in England, that are trying to come up with an alternative theory. One that may also get rid of the disunity between Relativity and quantum physics. No idea whether they are onto something or not, but still extremely interesting.

Thats actual really interesting, do you know of any articles/websites/things that have more information? Ive always felt that something was off with parts of relativity and quantum physics, especially the speed limit. I just don't know enough about physics to know if im just misunderstanding or if there is an actual probem. My main concern has always been that it doesn't seem very... logical. There is some assumption, or some missuse of logic that i think is wrong. and like Zeno's (greek philosopher who provided a proof of how movement is impossible) theory in philosophy, it will take a long time before we figure out what is wrong with current advanced physics.

It's not a matter of nothing being able to go faster than light-speed, it's a matter of nothing other than light being able to accelerate to or beyond that speed. The amount of energy required to accelerate a mass to those speeds eventually spirals out to infinity. It's just not mathematically possible.

Which is where the concepts of wormholes and warp-drives come into play. They allow an object to go faster than light, without actually having to accelerate to that speed. (by shortening the actual distance they travel between two points in space-time)

Vigormortis:

Barda236:

It was in the February issue of Popular Science I believe. Cannot for the life of me remember the name of the article. I'll see if I can find it tomorrow and send you a message.

Would this be in regards to Super-string / M-theory? Specifically, concepts like Calabi Yau manifolds? The idea that beyond the usual four dimensions (height, width, depth, and time) there exists tiny, folded up pockets of extra-dimensional space.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabi%E2%80%93Yau_manifold

Ledan:

Barda236:

The whole concept of 4 dimensional space-time and the theory of relativity may actually be wrong in significant ways. There are currently a group scientists, based mostly in England, that are trying to come up with an alternative theory. One that may also get rid of the disunity between Relativity and quantum physics. No idea whether they are onto something or not, but still extremely interesting.

Thats actual really interesting, do you know of any articles/websites/things that have more information? Ive always felt that something was off with parts of relativity and quantum physics, especially the speed limit. I just don't know enough about physics to know if im just misunderstanding or if there is an actual probem. My main concern has always been that it doesn't seem very... logical. There is some assumption, or some missuse of logic that i think is wrong. and like Zeno's (greek philosopher who provided a proof of how movement is impossible) theory in philosophy, it will take a long time before we figure out what is wrong with current advanced physics.

It's not a matter of nothing being able to go faster than light-speed, it's a matter of nothing other than light being able to accelerate to or beyond that speed. The amount of energy required to accelerate a mass to those speeds eventually spirals out to infinity. It's just not mathematically possible.

Which is where the concepts of wormholes and warp-drives come into play. They allow an object to go faster than light, without actually having to accelerate to that speed. (by shortening the actual distance they travel between two points in space-time)

The article does not have anything to do with string theory, but it is still a very thought provoking article. If I manage to find it tomorrow would you like to know the name of the article as well?

Cheesepower5:
If we already knew ways to effectively travel space, we'd be doing it. All we can do at this time is speculate, and frankly where we go in the black holes and hyperspace discussion will probably be WAY more fantastical and complicated than whatever we come up with in 10, 15, 20 or however many years it takes us to make the break through.

It will probably be mind-bogglingly mundane.

Here's hoping for a real-life Stargate Program.

It won't. We've done almost as much as we can do, so long as we're still a planet full of countries. We need to be a planet of one race, with all resources counted collectively to do anything more.

We're making progress in areas like cellular-scale computing and robotics, but no single country has the money or resources to do what is necessary to accomplish interstellar travel. The governments of these (all of our) countries won't consider unifying because they're too busy with everything that terrestrial political and cultural pissantry entails.

an actual, factual Scientist submitted a proposition outlining a "Warp Drive" like system. one half Mass Effect: Create a "Low Pressure" area in front of your death trap and the "High Pressure" behind accelerates your Death Trap.

"Why," you may ask, "are you using the term 'Death Trap'? a good question which i am about to answer.

the biggest problem with this technique is the estimated Several Million Degree Temperature with in this warped area of reality...

Ledan:

kouriichi:
Ok, its very simple. See, we first have to discover free energy. Clean burning, low cost infinite energy. Thats our biggest hurdle at the moment.

After that, space travel becomes far easier. See, because the object in space is completely weightless, so once you get your initial momentum going, space travel becomes far cheaper. So you dont have to fund then entire trip with energy, but reaching the proper speed is the most expensive part.

Then, you plot the course ahead of time, getting 100+ years of information ahead of time. Steering at that speed is impossible, and your biggest risk isnt aging to death, but hitting something, or getting hit by something. So you have to computer do all the controlling. More plotting can be done along the way, with the ample amount of time you'll have. Once you have all the information and space charts ready, your nearly there!

Now the ship itself will have to be rather large. Because of the infinite energy though, creating, producing, and maintaining things will be much simpler. Growing crops will be far easier, because of the ample space you can have ((no pun intended)) and the unlimited amounts of proper lighting and clean water. Food wont truly be a problem, because you can plant the crops in a rotating cycle, meaning every month you'll harvest one of the crops, for sustainable food.
While you cant get all the vitamins and nutrients you need to survive long trips from just plants, the rest you can tightly pack into bullion cubes, to be melted and mixed into water. Fiber and such are easy to keep in space, because of vacuum packing. Literally putting it into an area open to space, keeping it frozen in time.

While traveling lightyears will still take a generation or two, possibly more depending on speed constraints, you can live a happy life in space because of your lack of worries ((kinda)) :D Though, you'll probably go crazy from boredom and have to get tied to the wall with duct tape, it could go alot worse!

Not sure if joking but.... you do know there is no such thing as free energy? Or limitless energy? And if we had that, there wouldn't be any other problems in the world. Matter is "stored" energy. With limitless energy comes... magic. You could make atoms, make food, makes suns, make planets, make universes.....

Well, no, its not truly "limitless energy". The idea is more or less, "large amounts of energy for little cost".

Like, with how gas is these days. Say your paying $3.50 a gallon. Thats not cheap. Some people will even say expensive. But what if gas prices were to drop to $1 a gal? Its over 3x cheaper.

The idea is to come up with an energy source that costs almost nothing, and takes up little space, so you can have more of it. The idea of "limitless energy" isnt so much, "infinite", as it is "nearly free". :D think of it like a.... nuclear biodiesel. <- thats what we would need for intergalactic travel.

There is the idea of finding a way to fold physical space back onto itself thus eliminating physical distance by compressing the space between two points in reality. Not sure how to really go about that.

On the other hand there is the infinite probability engine which would place a selected person or object in ALL points of space in the galaxy and then work backwards from there until you are exactly where you prefer to be.

An international space agency in which all nations contribute and is funded through the fucking wazoo.

The US and Russia can't do it alone.

Also need to master artificial gravity or else we would all die due to bone density loss.

Unfortunately because of our frail bodies and limited lifespans. Robotics is the only real answer to wide spread exploration.

Interestingly enough even with Star Trek style warp technology we still would not be able to effectively traverse between galaxies. Warp speeds in ST hover in single digits, getting as high as ten (if I recall right. it has been a while.). Our low end estimates of the size of the Milky Way galaxy hover around 100,000 light years from on end to the other, while the Closest galaxy is the Canis Major Dwarf galaxy that sits around 25,000 light years from our own. Rough estimates put earth around 25,000 light years from the 'edge' of our galaxy. So take that as about 50,000 light years to the nearest galaxy and travel at the "mythical" warp ten and you have a trip that takes 5,000 years. Remember, that is at ten times the speed of light.

I vote for not viable in a single generation's lifetime on account of basic math. Barring, of course, worm holes or other modes of instantaneous travel over massive distances.

A reeeeeeeeeeeeallly big slingshot.

hyzaku:
Interestingly enough even with Star Trek style warp technology we still would not be able to effectively traverse between galaxies. Warp speeds in ST hover in single digits, getting as high as ten (if I recall right. it has been a while.). Our low end estimates of the size of the Milky Way galaxy hover around 100,000 light years from on end to the other, while the Closest galaxy is the Canis Major Dwarf galaxy that sits around 25,000 light years from our own. Rough estimates put earth around 25,000 light years from the 'edge' of our galaxy. So take that as about 50,000 light years to the nearest galaxy and travel at the "mythical" warp ten and you have a trip that takes 5,000 years. Remember, that is at ten times the speed of light.

I vote for not viable in a single generation's lifetime on account of basic math. Barring, of course, worm holes or other modes of instantaneous travel over massive distances.

I haven't read any of the ST mythology on exactly what "warp" means but from STV the system seemed to be more logarithmic where warp 1 was something like light speed and warp 10 was being at every point in the universe at the same time and therefore unattainable.

Heronblade:
There is always the possibility of an ARK ship. You would travel the full distance at sublight speeds, with each trip taking as long as several centuries. If we can't figure out some kind of safe stasis or cryo storage, it would likely be the descendants of the original voyagers that disembark. But this method does us little good. We might be able to establish colonies this way, but would not be able to trade with, assist, or even effectively communicate with them (imagine waiting 55 years on a request you sent in for a status update, or perhaps getting to listen to the screams of the dying colonists as a disaster that was long over several decades ago plays out).

Well, it would at the very least help with any overpopulation situations in the future. So instead of having a war to reduce the number of people, you just take the extra people, and push them somewhere else.

acturisme:

hyzaku:
Interestingly enough even with Star Trek style warp technology we still would not be able to effectively traverse between galaxies. Warp speeds in ST hover in single digits, getting as high as ten (if I recall right. it has been a while.). Our low end estimates of the size of the Milky Way galaxy hover around 100,000 light years from on end to the other, while the Closest galaxy is the Canis Major Dwarf galaxy that sits around 25,000 light years from our own. Rough estimates put earth around 25,000 light years from the 'edge' of our galaxy. So take that as about 50,000 light years to the nearest galaxy and travel at the "mythical" warp ten and you have a trip that takes 5,000 years. Remember, that is at ten times the speed of light.

I vote for not viable in a single generation's lifetime on account of basic math. Barring, of course, worm holes or other modes of instantaneous travel over massive distances.

I haven't read any of the ST mythology on exactly what "warp" means but from STV the system seemed to be more logarithmic where warp 1 was something like light speed and warp 10 was being at every point in the universe at the same time and therefore unattainable.

Discounting, of course, Voyager, where they somehow actually managed to reach Warp 10.

Daverson:
Two words, Fold Space.

"Folding" the "fabric" of space-time is a bit of a simplification, but Lorentz Contraction is well documented.

This guy is the only who gets it (so far, in this thread). The theory of relativity allows for intergalactic travel, in arbitrarily short spans of time, without going faster than light.

For example, you could get to the andromeda galaxy (2 million light years away) in a single year by traveling at sub-light speeds. This happens because of length contraction.

Here is an article about a relativistic rocket that accelerates at a rate of 1g (earth's gravity) until the midpoint of a trip, then decelerates at 1g so as to arrive at the destination at rest. Here are the travel times:

4.3 ly nearest star 3.6 years
27 ly Vega 6.6 years
30,000 ly Center of our galaxy 20 years
2,000,000 ly Andromeda galaxy 28 years

To make these times shorter, you only need to accelerate faster than 1g. The limit of the human body's ability to absorb acceleration is the only thing limiting out galactic exploration. That and the ability to power the ship.

Also, wormholes are totally speculative and not science at all. General Relativity does not allow for the creation of wormholes (if you put the wormholes in by hand, at the start of the universe, general relativity can describe them; GR can describe a lot of "universes" that don't exist, like ones with closed time-like curves, but the important thing is that GR doesn't allow us to make wormholes. To make wormholes you would need some strange type of physics that shows up on the scale of quantum gravity, which may be the case, but is widely speculative.

Short of manipulating space, jumping to subspace, wormholes, tesseracts, etc., it looks like Generation Ships are the only even remotely feasible route.

acturisme:

hyzaku:
Interestingly enough even with Star Trek style warp technology we still would not be able to effectively traverse between galaxies. Warp speeds in ST hover in single digits, getting as high as ten (if I recall right. it has been a while.). Our low end estimates of the size of the Milky Way galaxy hover around 100,000 light years from on end to the other, while the Closest galaxy is the Canis Major Dwarf galaxy that sits around 25,000 light years from our own. Rough estimates put earth around 25,000 light years from the 'edge' of our galaxy. So take that as about 50,000 light years to the nearest galaxy and travel at the "mythical" warp ten and you have a trip that takes 5,000 years. Remember, that is at ten times the speed of light.

I vote for not viable in a single generation's lifetime on account of basic math. Barring, of course, worm holes or other modes of instantaneous travel over massive distances.

I haven't read any of the ST mythology on exactly what "warp" means but from STV the system seemed to be more logarithmic where warp 1 was something like light speed and warp 10 was being at every point in the universe at the same time and therefore unattainable.

As I said, been a few years. Since you mentioned that, I went out and found this http://www.ussdragonstar.com/utilitycore/warpspeeds.asp

Other quick research indicates it should indeed be logarithmic. Totally my bad on that. Still at warp 9.975 (voyager's top speed) it would take over 16 years to traverse the 100,000 light years of the milky way. A far better time frame, but reaching out to farther galaxies like say andromeda would still take far longer than a human life span. Potentially viable for close galaxies, but not for total universe exploration.

However, I do seem to recal the Star trek warp drives making a "bubble" of normal space-time while 'warping' the space around the ship allowing for FTL travel. So even that involves more than a simple engine + fuel amount of science.

Of course, that is not even dealing with the nonsense of transwarp, which I don't recall being explained much at all, or the quantum slipstream silliness.

breaking the light barrier or maybe warp.

kouriichi:

Ledan:

kouriichi:
Ok, its very simple. See, we first have to discover free energy. Clean burning, low cost infinite energy. Thats our biggest hurdle at the moment.

After that, space travel becomes far easier. See, because the object in space is completely weightless, so once you get your initial momentum going, space travel becomes far cheaper. So you dont have to fund then entire trip with energy, but reaching the proper speed is the most expensive part.

Then, you plot the course ahead of time, getting 100+ years of information ahead of time. Steering at that speed is impossible, and your biggest risk isnt aging to death, but hitting something, or getting hit by something. So you have to computer do all the controlling. More plotting can be done along the way, with the ample amount of time you'll have. Once you have all the information and space charts ready, your nearly there!

Now the ship itself will have to be rather large. Because of the infinite energy though, creating, producing, and maintaining things will be much simpler. Growing crops will be far easier, because of the ample space you can have ((no pun intended)) and the unlimited amounts of proper lighting and clean water. Food wont truly be a problem, because you can plant the crops in a rotating cycle, meaning every month you'll harvest one of the crops, for sustainable food.
While you cant get all the vitamins and nutrients you need to survive long trips from just plants, the rest you can tightly pack into bullion cubes, to be melted and mixed into water. Fiber and such are easy to keep in space, because of vacuum packing. Literally putting it into an area open to space, keeping it frozen in time.

While traveling lightyears will still take a generation or two, possibly more depending on speed constraints, you can live a happy life in space because of your lack of worries ((kinda)) :D Though, you'll probably go crazy from boredom and have to get tied to the wall with duct tape, it could go alot worse!

Not sure if joking but.... you do know there is no such thing as free energy? Or limitless energy? And if we had that, there wouldn't be any other problems in the world. Matter is "stored" energy. With limitless energy comes... magic. You could make atoms, make food, makes suns, make planets, make universes.....

Well, no, its not truly "limitless energy". The idea is more or less, "large amounts of energy for little cost".

Like, with how gas is these days. Say your paying $3.50 a gallon. Thats not cheap. Some people will even say expensive. But what if gas prices were to drop to $1 a gal? Its over 3x cheaper.

The idea is to come up with an energy source that costs almost nothing, and takes up little space, so you can have more of it. The idea of "limitless energy" isnt so much, "infinite", as it is "nearly free". :D think of it like a.... nuclear biodiesel. <- thats what we would need for intergalactic travel.

Ah, so more like improving nuclear fission (or is it fusion?). Gotcha.

Istvan:
We could always pray for divine intervention. If we pray hard enough God will fix it for us.

Some people have prayed themselves to death for lesser things... I'm pretty sure they weren't answered.

OT: Well, other than the typical things like warp and "light speed"(Wich would be slow as hell if you want to cover alot of distance in the vastness of space) ive got no idea. Maybe some form of teleportation?

The Heavenator:

thaluikhain:

It's possible, even probable, that humans will colonize other worlds.

Actually colonizing other planets is hideously impractical, and nowhere near the effort. If humans were to spread into space it would most likely be in space stations. There are designs that exist that would be possible to build with present day technology. Any sort colonizing a planet is far further off, and terraforming a planet is pure science fiction and will probably never happen.

I agree that it's horribly impractical and that staying up would probably be preferable to coming down again, but it seems likely to me that, sooner or later, even people will want to do it. This might be much later, of course.

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