I don't have the time to read through all 7 pages, but this is my opinion on the matter. I don't think it's as black and white as people are making it out to be. It's not as if everyone is on an even playing field(financially, physically, mentally, etc), so i think its unfair to call anyone who makes a choice(on either end) selfish by default.

That being said, there are certain reasons on both sides that I would classify as selfish, but that remains, ultimately, my own opinion. So let's all tone back the insults and have a more civilized discussion.

With the world seriously overpopulated as it is, and considering how many unwanted children there are, I would say that having children (or at least more than one or two) is selfish.

Who has ever said this? I can only see this argument if you are in a committed relationship with someone who wants kids, but even then it's a long shot argument if you ask me. I have never heard anyone put forward this argument. In fact, with population issues, I've heard the exact opposite, though I don't agree with that either.

Vault101:
1. selfish to WHO exactally? who am I harming in not having a child? who am I benefitting in having a child? both answers: myself...oh and my partner

I believe it has to do with your Genome. Your family expects you to have children because, if you don't, your family tree ends with you. If you do, then you pass the genome down another generation, and (as far as evolution is concerned) you are no longer important. By not having children, you are actively harming your genetic line, and betraying the fundamental core of evolution itself that made us what we are.

Of course, that only applies to smart people. The stupid people are being actively selfish BY having children. They are ensuring that their flawed DNA continues.

Also, I am assuming that you are smart because, well, you sound smart in your OP (and because you have often been a voice of intelligence and interest in other threads). Therefore, I hope that you do choose to have at least one child - because your DNA is important to the continued evolution of the human race.

I think we're fine for populations, since there are almost 7 BILLION of us, I don't think populations dips are going to be much of a problem. Also, I choose not to have a kid (at least at the moment) because I simply don't trust myself to have one. Neither am I confident or responsible enough to raise a kid. So therefore I am being unselfish by choosing not to have a kid.

It's a subject that hits close to home-- married for a couple of decades (married right out of college), no kids. To a certain extent, my wife's health precluded them, but honestly we just didn't want them. Not out of some hatred of children, for crying aloud, yet we'd get that "Don't you like children?" My wife taught flute to hundreds of kids over the years, kept in contact with them as they went off to college, was a terrific aunt to our nieces who facebooked her all the time with questions they didn't want to ask Mom about, etc. She worked for a non-profit that (among other things) provided free music concerts to the local schools. And she volunteered at animal shelters.

And yet, we'd still get the "Until you have children, your life isn't complete" B.S. Look, we always felt that the default state should be to NOT have kids. It's a HUGE commitment, and yet I've seen so many couples dive into it with less thought than they'd put into getting a dog (which is a huge commitment, too-- but microscopic next to children). Unless you absolutely positively want to have kids and are willing to basically put everything in your life on hold for a few years (the first few are all consuming), imho you should wait until you can shoulder those requirements.

The human race isn't in danger of dying out. When it comes to children, the only thing selfish is having them without putting them first. And if you have kids out of a sense of social obligation (or parental pressure...oh, boy.), that's exactly what you're doing.

I was thinking about making a well thought-out, eloquent post about how aging, shrinking populations, and culture groups disappearing are massive problems, but instead:

We, as a species, are fucked. Our more developed societies have pretty much given up on existing, and are quickly being supplanted by groups coming from places where indoctrination is the rule, not the exception. Our own laziness, self-interest, and, funny enough, reasoning skills have doomed the species.

Actually I heard this argument recently a couple of months back when my grandmother was trying to convince my older sister to have a kid with her recent partner.
I believe this was one of the arguments that came up at some point - that it's selfish not to.

I CAN understand the point - it's choosing to avoid a certain lifestyle choice that once you've chosen there's no going back on - but once you're done - hey! You've just created life, that's a good thing, right?

In the end I believe it is down to the (potential) parent but really if anything in most first world country's we really do need to have more kids - so actually doing it would help quite a bit! Either way, it's not selfish -really- just... choosing not to be overly charitable either.

Regnes:
I only skimmed your post, but it's selfish because you are jeopardizing the economy and stability of your country by refusing to have children.

That's one more reason for me not to have kids. I'm sick of this nationalism lark.

OT: Selfish or not, who gives a fuck? Be selfish if you want to be, what is anyone going to do, have kids for you?

If it's selfish because you destabilise your country then it doesn't matter, it isn't your responsibility to keep your country stable; those in government want power and get the responsibility that comes with it, not you.

If it's selfish because you don't want the stress or hassle then it doesn't matter, being unhappy isn't something to aim for. "Oh lord! You want to enjoy yourself, how terrible."

It isn't your biological duty to churn out kids, it isn't your societal duty, it isn't an economic or political duty, it's a fucking choice. People need to stop worrying about all this 'should' bullshit and live a little.

I think this idea is freaking stupid.

But still, I think you're portraying selfishness in a poor light. Selfishness is good if used in the right context. In the end, you will need to take care of number one.

Selfishness is only looked upon because as a child you were taught that it was bad to not help your friends and shit. It's only when you grow up you realize that helping them all the time can lead to some serious social problems and conflicts. Sometimes you need to be selfish. And having a child is a big responsibility. If you can't deal with it, then fuck that unborn baby.

I think it is risky to encourage the idea that it is better to live for yourself than other not because it isn't true (at least to some exstent) but because, I mean look at Japan. We can't ignore the need for people to have children but I mean we have over 7billion people on earth. Everyone should stop being so sniffy about immigrants and I think we will survive a while with a low birth rate.

If you really don't want children then it isn't selfish not to want to have any, it is a personal choice but I dunno don't rule out that you may change your mind. Personally I can understand why soneone wouldn't want kids and it is better for children to be brought up in a family where they are truly wanted rather than a obligation (trust me I know).

I think the only situation where it is a selfish choice is if you were in a relationship with someone who did want to have kids and were not clear with your intentions never to have children.

No, it's usually smart. It's idiotic to bring a child you can't take care of properly into the world.

I don't intend to have kids, because my life plan involves me eventually being a field marine biologist, which means that i'd be gone a lot of the time, and I don't want to have my kid subjected to only having me around a limited amount of time.

That's outdated thinking. There are already more people on the planet there are resources for. Considering global poverty and starvation levels, it's selfish to increase your country's population, increasing your own demand for resources and reducing the resources available worldwide. We are past carrying capacity. Now, things like the Green Revolution have extended our carrying capacity somewhat, and we're close to developing some even better crops. But we can't look backwards for solutions to problems the world has never faced before. Go forth and multiply no longer applies. We've multiplied enough. Unless we severely reduce consumption and increase our agricultural efficiency, "maintaining our population" is going to cause a lot of wars.

Of course, there will be some economic problems caused by having most of the population be really old. But a smaller population means more resources, food, water, and work for everyone. Any comfortable society should make it a goal to reduce their population, to a reasonable point. So there's absolutely nothing wrong with the OP not wanting kids. It's a more responsible choice than acting on some sort of instinctive imperative.

Nope.avi

Mouse One:
It's a subject that hits close to home-- married for a couple of decades (married right out of college), no kids. To a certain extent, my wife's health precluded them, but honestly we just didn't want them. Not out of some hatred of children, for crying aloud, yet we'd get that "Don't you like children?" My wife taught flute to hundreds of kids over the years, kept in contact with them as they went off to college, was a terrific aunt to our nieces who facebooked her all the time with questions they didn't want to ask Mom about, etc. She worked for a non-profit that (among other things) provided free music concerts to the local schools. And she volunteered at animal shelters.

And yet, we'd still get the "Until you have children, your life isn't complete" B.S. Look, we always felt that the default state should be to NOT have kids. It's a HUGE commitment, and yet I've seen so many couples dive into it with less thought than they'd put into getting a dog (which is a huge commitment, too-- but microscopic next to children). Unless you absolutely positively want to have kids and are willing to basically put everything in your life on hold for a few years (the first few are all consuming), imho you should wait until you can shoulder those requirements.

The human race isn't in danger of dying out. When it comes to children, the only thing selfish is having them without putting them first. And if you have kids out of a sense of social obligation (or parental pressure...oh, boy.), that's exactly what you're doing.

Completely agree. I have yet to decide on children at my age. I know if I ever have a child I would want to be as ready as possible for the sacrifices that come with it. I would not be content to simply be a father, but take responsibility that I would wish to be a good father. I think knowing yourself and what you are capable of is an important aspect in making significant life decisions. I knew years ago that I had a basic line of how I saw life.

1. Take care of myself (meaning I can stand on my own and not begrudge anyone for not being able to do things I enjoyed for a period in my life.)

2. Develop stable relationship (have solid base of trust and love along with pragmatic financial issues resolved in a way that added stress would not break them.)

3. Possibly have offspring (as stated, I see this as a massive lifelong commitment beyond when the child is entirely dependent on you. I have an obligation to any life I bring into this world to give it best possible chance at happiness I can.)

So, you can be unselfish selfish by knowing your own limitations and being honest with yourself.

I've got so many issues that me becoming a parent would be a very, very bad idea. I've got severe depression, possibly ADD, I'm lazy as hell, have low self esteem and have trouble interacting with people... I think I'm doing everyone a favor by not having kids. Society can say whatever the hell they want about me, but some people just aren't emotionally stable and educated enough to handle raising kids.

Unfortunately a lot of the people who have no business raising kids, have them in droves.

Bara_no_Hime:

I believe it has to do with your Genome. Your family expects you to have children because, if you don't, your family tree ends with you. If you do, then you pass the genome down another generation, and (as far as evolution is concerned) you are no longer important. By not having children, you are actively harming your genetic line, and betraying the fundamental core of evolution itself that made us what we are.

Unless, of course, you have brothers and sisters.
I do plan on having kids, but I'm not super excited about handing down MY family genes. Excema, hayfever, asthma and other such unpleasantries run in my family.
And twins, that runs in my family too. No thanks, lol.

Regnes:
China is famous for it's one child policy they introduced to help counter overpopulation. This has been disastrous because it actually worked to an extent and since people stopped producing enough children, the country's average age is very high compared to most countries, it's a big problem when your country mostly contains seniors for obvious reasons.

In the case of China, wouldn't that mean there is more work for people and that it might be easier to find jobs? Wouldn't a lower amount in the number of youths would imply less competition for jobs? Just wondering.

OT, personally I believe it isn't selfish if someone doesnt want kids. It's a logical, rational choice that maybe more people should make.

Regnes:

3. As much as 10% of the population is homosexual, most gay people don't find long term partners and adopt or otherwise sponsor the production of children. That's effectively an extra 10% to the infertility rate.

Bull. A lot of gay couples (Or single people) can't even adopt in the first place with the current social stigmas and laws being thrown around that prohibit any same-sex couple from adopting, and you're not even accounting for same-sex couples that use surrogates, so your "extra 10% to the infertility rate" is bullshit. By that logic as well, it's selfish of me to use up extra resources to raise my own biological child, when we have thousands of children sitting in orphanages with no parents of their own that we're already expending resources to take care of. Our population is in no immediate danger, what with the Quiver Full movement cranking out kid after kid until the wife's uterus drags 3 feet behind her when she walks.

I've gotten it from my Dad. He said its selfish of me not to have kids because then I dont have to think about someone else. He also mentioned that he thinks my uncle and aunt are a little selfish for not having kids (not in a condescending "shame on them" tone, but more that he doesnt agree with their choice) I dont really understand it, somehow me not wanting kids is selfish, but him wanting me to give him grand kids isnt.
(ps. not meaning to villainize my Dad, he's really a great guy, Honest! Just he's the only example of this that I can think of)

Mortai Gravesend:

Darkmantle:

Mortai Gravesend:

So it's selfish to not want to raise kids to take care of a bunch of people you don't know? People need to care for the aging so it's the duty of the young to crank out kids to provide for them?

that would be the definition of selfish. Not wanting to help anyone who isn't in your immediate group. So yes, it is selfish.

No, that isn't how selfishness is defined. Furthermore you're dishonestly exaggerating it. It's a matter of magnitude, not willingness to help others. Come back with integrity, or maybe better reading comprehension.

Only caring about you and yours, is selfish. The magnitude MAKES the selfishness in this case. Perhaps you should not be so quick to judge other's reading comprehension.

Honestly I laugh at the posts saying that ONE person choosing not to have children is going to hurt the economy. That is fucking ridiculous. Even if it becomes a popular idea to not have children, there are still plenty of people who have more than "2 kids per household to sustain the (already fucked in the ass) economy."

I live in South Carolina, and trust me when I tell you there are people who should've been more "selfish" and stopped having kids because now they're all poverty-stricken, uneducated, and have very low odds of making anything successful out of themselves (it's not impossible, but they're all starting behind the 8-ball)

I have no problem with someone who doesn't want to have kids. Hell my brother has stated vehemently that he's not having kids for reasons that have already been listed here: sanity, money, fondness of time and energy, etc.

I've always known this website to be a "do whatever works for you" kind of website so I'm actually a little amazed at how many people are saying that it IS selfish to not want to have children.

What about gay couples? Is it their responsibility to produce children as well? What if a couple can't conceive? Are they useless to us as a couple?

No.

Do whatever the fuck you want. If you don't want to have kids, don't have them. If you want kids, have'em. If you ladies want kids but don't want to destroy your bodies for them then there are plenty of kids here in South Carolina that I'm sure would be happy to go with you.