the "Why didn't they just shoot Voldemort?" thread

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Okay from the other topic, someone brought up the question about why they didn't just shoot Voldemort. Now I use to watch these movies with my ex and drive her up the wall with all my questions cause really a LOT of what the magic community does doesn't make sense and is overly pretentios, but this question I investigated in earnest.

Arguments the dim-witted harry potter fan gives as to why the gun wouldn't work...
1. Muggle technology doesn't work around magic.
2. Voldemort would just be able to stop the bullet with magic
3. Voldemort will keep regenerating until the horcruxes are destroyed
4. If they did that there wouldn't be a story.

well... heres my counter argument,

1. You tell me some sort of electronic device doesn't work, I get it. Theres no telling what a magical aura could do to electricity. However a gun is mechanical and chemical. I have to assume if a pully and rope can work in Harry's universe a revolver would work to. Maybe you could argue that the gun powder wouldn't combust... But an obvious solution to that would be just use the wizard-chemical-equalvelent of gun power. Then you got yourself a magic gun!

2. Bullshit. First off, most of the spells require either saying a two syllable word and making a motion with the wand and I doubt Volde could do that against a bullet. Secondly, Voldemort being the racist that he is wouldn't know what a gun is/does if he saw one so he wouldn't have anyway of anticipating the impending bullet.

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

4. NO! I freaking hate this response, because all it is trying to cover up how poor the story really is. Hey, I get a kick out the series, but this is a glaring serious plot hole. The whole reason the stakes are high is because the magic world assumes that unless Harry stops volde the muggles wouldn't stand a chance... Truth of the matter is, and JK Rowling said so herself, that in a straight up war with the magical realm the muggles would win. We have vastly superior technology and armor, not to mention numbers.

The only reason, the only GOOD reason why they didn't shoot Voldemort is because Harry just plain didn't think of doing it... and seeing as how both he and hermione both came from the muggle world and never once even lampshaded it I see is a major flaw in the whole series.

They are fans who take a book too seriously. There is no way to argue with stupidity. Imagining scenarios is fun but any actual arguments just makes me face palm.

All you would need is a nuke and bye bye hogwarts, even if you stop the blast the radiation will be there for years.

that wouldn't have made for a good story. They say hindsight is 20/20, I imagine that given a history book we could point out easy solutions for most problems.

Matthew94:
They are fans who take a book too seriously. There is no way to argue with stupidity. Imagining scenarios is fun but any actual arguments just makes me face palm.

All you would need is a nuke and bye bye hogwarts, even if you stop the blast the radiation will be there for years.

Not really, because the [insert magic here] would wipe it all away and in fact stop the detonation in the first place.

You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want.

Oh, and btw, its a series of KIDS books. The OP is calling HP fans names, while actually spending real brain cells trying to disprove a kid's book about magic. Who's the dim witted one again?

Cuz if things were that easy, the books would never be that funny...

Oh the menace of the world is going to kill us all, oh no what do you do *shoot gun and kills villain* Well...... that was anti-climmatic...

The reason why i think nobody tried to shot him in the movie, is because the ones that tried died, and suffer worst fates then death...

I always thought that the lack of muggle perspectives was a wasted opportunity in the books. The best chapter of Half Blood Prince was when Crouch kept visiting the Prime Minister and keeping him updated on the Wizarding World. That was really neat, seeing how the Muggles reacted whenever Crouch burst through his fireplace.

So much fuss is made in the books about how the muggle world has adapted without magic, but we never see beyond the wizard perspective. Shame really.

Kendarik:

Matthew94:
They are fans who take a book too seriously. There is no way to argue with stupidity. Imagining scenarios is fun but any actual arguments just makes me face palm.

All you would need is a nuke and bye bye hogwarts, even if you stop the blast the radiation will be there for years.

Not really, because the [insert magic here] would wipe it all away and in fact stop the detonation in the first place.

You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want.

Oh, and btw, its a series of KIDS books. The OP is calling HP fans names, while actually spending real brain cells trying to disprove a kid's book about magic. Who's the dim witted one again?

"You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want."

This is precisely why I won't argue with HP fans over this as you can't ever win using common sense.

"its a series of KIDS books."

By book 6 I wouldn't call it a kids book, it's just so depressing and so it the next one except replace depressing with boring.

Another good explanation is that the wizarding community just puts too much faith IN magic, believing that technology is really just a thing, a parlor trick (rather ironic mode of thinking that it is). In short, hubris! They live in a world of dragons, hexes, and flying brooms! The comfort and safety of a well-armed fighter jet with machine guns and missles would be lost upon them.

Frankly, I say ole' Tom hates normal people because nothing he's got can amount to "I am death, destroyer of worlds." and never will.

FalloutJack:
Another good explanation is that the wizarding community just puts too much faith IN magic, believing that technology is really just a thing, a parlor trick (rather ironic mode of thinking that it is). In short, hubris! They live in a world of dragons, hexes, and flying brooms! The comfort and safety of a well-armed fighter jet with machine guns and missles would be lost upon them.

Frankly, I say ole' Tom hates normal people because nothing he's got can amount to "I am death, destroyer of worlds." and never will.

He probably is jealous. "I am death, destroyer of people a few at a time" just isn't that impressive. His favorite spell kills people one by one, though he probably has others that could hit a group of people. But nothing nearly as impressive as a weapon that destroys an entire city, kills many of its inhabitants, and ruins the area for years later.

Magical society has developed so that associating with Muggles and utilizing their advances is a social taboo. Arthur Weasley is interested in Muggle technology, and that's regarded as complete folly.

So it makes sense why they wouldn't put faith in it to stop a problem that is so challenging for their "obviously superior" magic.

The way I like to imagine the books is. Voldermorte wins the battle against the loyalist wizards, decides to take on the rest of the muggle world and is taken out by a sniper within 30 seconds, Tango down!

The rest of the death eaters are whisked off to gitmo.

There is only one true wizard named harry, and his name is Dresden

SaneAmongInsane:

3. Voldemort will keep regenerating until the horcruxes are destroyed

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

Voldemort doesn't actually resurrect in his body; The horcruxes just keeps his soul linked to the Earth. You might get him once, but then his soul goes and floats about until he builds a new body, which you can be damn sure he will equip with some sort of shielding amulet to protect himself. (fool me once and all that)

Happy Yay:
Magical society has developed so that associating with Muggles and utilizing their advances is a social taboo. Arthur Weasley is interested in Muggle technology, and that's regarded as complete folly.

So it makes sense why they wouldn't put faith in it to stop a problem that is so challenging for their "obviously superior" magic.

Also this. Even for people who grew up in the Muggle world, after seeing all the amazing, reality-defying stuff that magic could do, it's no wonder they didn't bother to think about technology. It's the same way that problems in our world are solved with the internet; we may get a better solution by asking our old neighbour how they solved the problem, but we are so used to finding internet answers that those are the only ones we look for.

Well, the main reason is probably becasue the book would be over in like five minutes.

Thunderous Cacophony:

SaneAmongInsane:

3. Voldemort will keep regenerating until the horcruxes are destroyed

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

Voldemort doesn't actually resurrect in his body; The horcruxes just keeps his soul linked to the Earth. You might get him once, but then his soul goes and floats about until he builds a new body, which you can be damn sure he will equip with some sort of shielding amulet to protect himself. (fool me once and all that)

Happy Yay:
Magical society has developed so that associating with Muggles and utilizing their advances is a social taboo. Arthur Weasley is interested in Muggle technology, and that's regarded as complete folly.

So it makes sense why they wouldn't put faith in it to stop a problem that is so challenging for their "obviously superior" magic.

Also this. Even for people who grew up in the Muggle world, after seeing all the amazing, reality-defying stuff that magic could do, it's no wonder they didn't bother to think about technology. It's the same way that problems in our world are solved with the internet; we may get a better solution by asking our old neighbour how they solved the problem, but we are so used to finding internet answers that those are the only ones we look for.

But Harry spends a good amount of time in the real world. There really isn't a good reason for him not to at least consider, at least for a second "Why don't I just shoot him?"

You could say that about most works of fiction. A .45 ACP to the brainpan would solve many, many books, TV series and movies in the first act.

It's fiction. Flying brooms. Having a real argument over this around me and my friends would lead to facepalms.

Sure, maybe but it didn't happen. Because that would have really lessened the tension.

Whatever...

I'm pretty sure Voldemort knows at least one spell that could stop 3 ounces of lead in mid-air.

To say that Voldemort wouldn't know what a gun is doesn't make sense when you consider he grew up in a Muggle orphanage until he was 11, and as for having to say something to cast a spell, they actual have lessons in using non verbal spells in the books, so it's not necessary to actually say a spell

Voldemort turned all the guns in the world into small mice prior to his uprising. Something like that.

I have no doubt he could just cast a passive spell that creates a bullet-reflecting shield around him which lasts for a while.

And looking at the guy, I wouldn't be surprised if bullets had no effect. Doesn't he look to you like the sort of thing that could only be killed by magic?

Then there's the logical (read: boring nobody cares) answer, which is that Harry doesn't actually know how to use guns, and in a life-or-death situation he'd almost certainly miss and/or jam the bloody thing and then get murderised by Voldy's green death beam.

Matthew94:

Kendarik:

Matthew94:
They are fans who take a book too seriously. There is no way to argue with stupidity. Imagining scenarios is fun but any actual arguments just makes me face palm.

All you would need is a nuke and bye bye hogwarts, even if you stop the blast the radiation will be there for years.

Not really, because the [insert magic here] would wipe it all away and in fact stop the detonation in the first place.

You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want.

Oh, and btw, its a series of KIDS books. The OP is calling HP fans names, while actually spending real brain cells trying to disprove a kid's book about magic. Who's the dim witted one again?

"You can't stop magic with science because you can handwave the science away with more magic if you want."

This is precisely why I won't argue with HP fans over this as you can't ever win using common sense.

"its a series of KIDS books."

By book 6 I wouldn't call it a kids book, it's just so depressing and so it the next one except replace depressing with boring.

Honestly, never read the books. The movies were fun though (and not very depressing really)

And if you think that a FANTASY book about magic is a place to use common sense, you aren't using common sense yourself.

Forlong:
I'm pretty sure Voldemort knows at least one spell that could stop 3 ounces of lead in mid-air.

But is he fast enough? How quick can he speak the words and wave his hands? I'll go ahead and assume he already holds the wand. He has to 1. Be aware of the possibility to be shot at 2. Be prepared 3. React instantaneously or in advance.

He has to be crazy prepared to stop a random bullet. Probably needs like a really detailed prediction for the future - nothing like "dark strangers" and all those metaphors. The prophesy actually needs to say "You will be shot on Monday the 17th of April at 13:43 - it will be a man with jeans and a dark hoodie. He won't have shaven that morning." that kind of detail...at which point, Voldemort can just avoid the situation.

He may know a spell that stops one bullet, but I doubt his reflexes are up to it. Even then, just shoot him again - how long can he keep intercepting the bullets? He'll Won't even be halfway through Avada and he can get shot twice.

EDIT:

OhJohnNo:
Then there's the logical (read: boring nobody cares) answer, which is that Harry doesn't actually know how to use guns, and in a life-or-death situation he'd almost certainly miss and/or jam the bloody thing and then get murderised by Voldy's green death beam.

Well, I agree Harry is going to probably hurt others and himself much more than Voldie, but still he isn't the only character. There are tons of other people who'd like to stop Voldemort. Most of them are even adults. and seriously - a course in firearms last, how long? A month? Two months? Half a year? They've had a lot of time to prepare, it's not like Voldy appeared out of the nothing. There were years until he popped out. And more time afterwards.

DoPo:

Forlong:
I'm pretty sure Voldemort knows at least one spell that could stop 3 ounces of lead in mid-air.

But is he fast enough? How quick can he speak the words and wave his hands? I'll go ahead and assume he already holds the wand. He has to 1. Be aware of the possibility to be shot at 2. Be prepared 3. React instantaneously or in advance.

He has to be crazy prepared to stop a random bullet. Probably needs like a really detailed prediction for the future - nothing like "dark strangers" and all those metaphors. The prophesy actually needs to say "You will be shot on Monday the 17th of April at 13:43 - it will be a man with jeans and a dark hoodie. He won't have shaven that morning." that kind of detail...at which point, Voldemort can just avoid the situation.

He may know a spell that stops one bullet, but I doubt his reflexes are up to it. Even then, just shoot him again - how long can he keep intercepting the bullets? He'll Won't even be halfway through Avada and he can get shot twice.

Even D&D had an answer for that, its called a conditional spell. "If my life is seriously threatened then I automatically teleport to...." type spell.

SaneAmongInsane, good points, I'll elaborate on them down under my own points/counterpoints. (I mostly agree with you)

Here are my $0.02 on this topic.

Wizards don't know shit about muggle technology. They even regard it as inferior. I don't see any of them using a gun. Most of them would go "oh please. A device that shoots lead balls at high speeds, and has limited ammo, has recoil, doesn't necessarily kill the target on hit, and can jam on you? I can just use an Avada Kedavra and get the same result!" Plus, most of them wold be lousy shots without training.

If they can't/won't properly use guns, then there would need to be a muggle agency that does. Which might lead to the info of the magical community being leaked to the muggle public. Leading to a full on war with the wizards.

Honestly, when your muggle studies class is talking about pulleys and stuff instead of computers and the internet, and when the muggle related jobs at the ministry require next to no training and are understaffed and crammed into the corner of the building...I think you need to rethink your view of muggles. Muggles aren't stupid. The wizards might have their magic, but they are way too reliant on it. Their pride would be their downfall at some point.

---
SaneAmongInsane, your first 2 points are SPOT ON, and well put. High five.

SaneAmongInsane:

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

Agreed on this one too. If they could kill him, it would be hard for him to come back, and they could have more time. SADLY, the vast majority of wizards have some kind of nobility complex, where they refuse to kill enemy wizards even when those death eaters are trying to kill them. That and as I said in my own points, wizards are too proud/stupid to see the value of muggle tech.

The whole reason the stakes are high is because the magic world assumes that unless Harry stops volde the muggles wouldn't stand a chance... Truth of the matter is, and JK Rowling said so herself, that in a straight up war with the magical realm the muggles would win. We have vastly superior technology and armor, not to mention numbers.

Which just proves my point that the wizarding community just doesn't understand and appreciate how powerful the muggle community is. If they went into a straight up war, rather than the wizards being hiding in secret, the muggles would WTFpwn the wizards.

The fact that the wizards think that unless harry wins, the muggles will die out is KINDA understandable (it would take a LOOOOONG time and a LOOOT of invisible war before the muggles FINALLY caught on that there IS in fact magic, and it's being used on them in a hidden war), but still misplaced, because as soon as the cat is out of the bag...The muggles would bust out the weaponry. It wouldn't be a curb-stomp battle, but the muggles would win in the end.

The only reason, the only GOOD reason why they didn't shoot Voldemort is because Harry just plain didn't think of doing it... and seeing as how both he and hermione both came from the muggle world and never once even lampshaded it I see is a major flaw in the whole series.

Ok, THIS is a brilliant point. Hermione is super logical. Even though she's been researching spells like mad for 7 years, I'm surprised the thought of using muggle weaponry didn't cross her mind.

I guess I can understand harry not remembering it, though.

NO! I freaking hate this response, because all it is trying to cover up how poor the story really is

I disagree with this, only because it's SUPPOSED to be a wizards and wands/magic story, not one about magic and technology working together. It would have been AWESOME to see them intertwine more, but that wasn't the point of the story.

So yeah, that's why I disagree with that.

Kendarik:
Even D&D had an answer for that, its called a conditional spell. "If my life is seriously threatened then I automatically teleport to...." type spell.

Yes, I can see how can we apply D&D here. Wait, I don't. It's an entirely different thing.

At any rate, even if we assume conditional spells it doesn't make sense. Veldemort wouldn't be killed by anything in that case, so it would be useless to fight him in the first place. But how about being shot in the leg or the arm. For bonus points - the one that holds the wand. Not (immediately) life threatening and it still finishes him off effectively. Also, there are things like pepper spray, tear gas and all sorts of other weapons that are not as lethal as firearms. One can just taser him. Few volts of electric goodness through his body would make him dance in joy.

DoPo:
But is he fast enough? How quick can he speak the words and wave his hands? I'll go ahead and assume he already holds the wand. He has to 1. Be aware of the possibility to be shot at 2. Be prepared 3. React instantaneously or in advance.

He can preform the killing curse without saying "Avada Kadavra". Plenty of other spells too.

1) Muggle technology DOES work around magic, it's just excess magic that does it in. Electrical instruments go out of whack at Hogwarts because it's a small area with a concentration of hundreds of wizards and a legion of house elves to boot, as well as thousands upon thousands of active enchantments. This is not the scenario in most places with the possible exception of Diagon Alley.

Just think about magnets, magnets are magical and they are distorted by electrical waves, but they function just fine as long as there isn't a ton going on around it. Firelegs are no exception to this rule.

2) Yeah, it's sort of like how people think Darth Vader would win against Voldemort because he could choke him to death at a range, Voldemort could drop Vader dead before he even applied pressure, just the same, Voldemort would drop dead before casting a spell. Avada Kedavra is a slow casting spell since it cannot be cast non-verbally.

3) We don't really know how the Horcruxes work exactly, so it's hard to say on this comment, but I would presume his body could be taken out of commission until attended to by a medic at least. He was always physically still human, it's just his soul that was kind of immortal.

4) Can't argue with that, hell half the story is fueled by the adults being blithering idiots, Order of the Phoenix revolved greatly around the Ministry's ineptitude.

Forlong:

DoPo:
But is he fast enough? How quick can he speak the words and wave his hands? I'll go ahead and assume he already holds the wand. He has to 1. Be aware of the possibility to be shot at 2. Be prepared 3. React instantaneously or in advance.

He can preform the killing curse without saying "Avada Kadavra". Plenty of other spells too.

OK, I give you that - I had forgotten that detail. "Silent spells" or whatever they were called. Still that doesn't make him immune to bullets, just gives him more of a chance in a fair fight.

Regnes:
Just think about magnets, magnets are magical and they are distorted by electrical waves, but they function just fine as long as there isn't a ton going on around it. Firelegs are no exception to this rule.

Please tell me you were talking about within the context of the harry potter universe.

SaneAmongInsane:
Snippolainen

I have a .gif for you, OP.

image
Oh snap.

OT: I agree. Your argument is sound. However, it's a children's book series. It's bound to have loopholes. There's not much to do but pretend they aren't there if you want to enjoy the series.
I mean, they have a fucking time machine, and what do they use it for?

image
Catch all the classes!

Oh, and they save the life of a hippogriff. That's nice I guess.

Matthew94:

Regnes:
Just think about magnets, magnets are magical and they are distorted by electrical waves, but they function just fine as long as there isn't a ton going on around it. Firelegs are no exception to this rule.

Please tell me you were talking about within the context of the harry potter universe.

image

Eh, it's a reference to the "Fucking Magnets, How do they work?" meme. And actually now that I think about it, I meant to say compasses more specifically than just magnets themselves, though they are the same thing.

So the biggest issue you have in a world where elves, dragons, goblins, and griffins exist, people can fly, there are invisibility cloaks, ghosts exist, and magic is used on a daily basis, is that guns don't work in it?

The major issue I had with the universe is the whole part at the end where there isn't any satisfactory justice for all the wizards like Malfoy who repeatedly broke the law. And also the complete lack of any magical military, who you'd think would be in place to stop exactly this sort of thing from happening.

SaneAmongInsane:
Arguments the dim-witted harry potter fan gives as to why the gun wouldn't work...

This is not an argument from a fan but it is the argument my European Folklore Professor would make-

Rowling is doing more or less what Tolkien did with the Lord of the Rings. Specifically they both are using standard folklore archetypes to "hand make" a folktale, fairy story, myth, etc. Basically all of the Lord of the Rings is is copy/pasted elements of folklore with a bit of theory thrown in. Harry is more or less following Vladimir Propp's hero's quest archetype where (summary) the hero leaves on a quest, he is tested, he wins, he marries the princess. In order for the hero archetype to work there must be a counter action where the hero must make a sacrifice to gain the tool necessary to defeat the villain. Just getting a gun would not have required a sacrifice or a real journey.

In other words you should think of the story more as a literary exercise (for children no less).

Or you could just say that Rowling is English and since the English have such oppressive gun laws Harry probably wouldn't have been able to get a gun anyway without consulting a local gang (that would be an interesting twist on the hero archetype).

Esotera:
So the biggest issue you have in a world where elves, dragons, goblins, and griffins exist, people can fly, there are invisibility cloaks, ghosts exist, and magic is used on a daily basis, is that guns don't work in it?

No, the issue is that guns do work but are not even mentioned. No matter how magical your world is, a plothole is a plothole. Unless you're talking about Discworld sort of world, that is, in that case everything can be handwaved as "a wizard did it" or "a historey monk did it" or "the gods did it" or simply "because it's cool".

You know the saying - if the only tool in your story is magic, you tend to forget the existence of everything else. Imagine if in D&D the wizard says "OK, I don't have Levitate memorised today, there is no way we reach that [insert something important here]" and everybody agrees...ignoring the fact that a ladder would have still worked just the same.

Why don't they just use a Death Note?
Wrong fandom because wizards lack creativity.
Anyway, what about conjuring fast projectile bullets? No pesky mechanism that, depending on who's arguing, may or may not work in a magical environment.
If guns do work magic could make the bullets invisible and probably silence it!
Ultimate sniper time.

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