the "Why didn't they just shoot Voldemort?" thread

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coolbeans21:
The way I like to imagine the books is. Voldermorte wins the battle against the loyalist wizards, decides to take on the rest of the muggle world and is taken out by a sniper within 30 seconds, Tango down!

The rest of the death eaters are whisked off to gitmo.

There is only one true wizard named harry, and his name is Dresden

It would probably cost a lot of lives for muggles to figure out the extent of magic capabilities. (teleporting would confuse them and make it dificult to pinpoint his location) Rather than I sniper team I would just carpet bomb any area wizards were thought to be in.

Furthermore, there is no way to stop a bullet (unless there is a permanent ward I do not know of) The only warning is a slight flash over a mile away and now you have less than 2 seconds left to live. With a flash surpresser its even less and with the bullet traveling at supersonic it is silent for the target. With now warning Voldemort can't put up any wards to save his life. All in all impossible to survive (unless you can live your torso splattered on the nearest tree)

ON an entirely different note don't forget Molly and Ebenezer. And the Dresden's universe could destroy The Harry Potter one (imagine mab just obliterating everyone)

Rylingo:

janjotat:

It would probably cost a lot of lives for muggles to figure out the extent of magic capabilities. (teleporting would confuse them and make it dificult to pinpoint his location) Rather than I sniper team I would just carpet bomb any area wizards were thought to be in.

You can't carpet bomb something when you can't even pinpoint its location. All major wizarding areas are unplottable due to wildly used wizard magic which can be performed by even weak wizards.

No muggles can enter, or find, or plot on a map a wizarding area.

Im off to bed. Ill counter anything interesting I see tomorrow. Honestly if you haven't read the (vastly superior) books then trying to pick plot holes is silly. Most of these have already been explained in the books.

It doesn't matter if they can't plot the location. Imagine WWII air raids, just launching dumb bombs where wizards(guaranteed to be some that would help muggles) told them to. Also muggles can enter wizarding areas(they see Hogwarts as an old ruin) the wards surrounding it dissuade the muggles from going there and the wizards wipe their memories if they did. I also really do like the book series though and when I read a book I generaly ignore all plot holes unless they are incredibly bad. The OP's post simply brought that one to my attention. AND it is the internet where everything can be put under debate

SnakeoilSage:

SaneAmongInsane:
Don't you think it should of at least been lampshaded? Ya know... like Buffy.

Oh, possibly. But that might also have brought more attention to it. In the end, the story is about life lessons, not killing the big bad. That's kind of hard to spot in the later books and it's railroaded in (almost literally) during the "King's Crossing in Limbo" scene, but the story is really about how goodness empowers us (Harry finds love and family), and evil destroys us (as Voldemort continues his mad quest to slay Harry Potter, he slowly loses everything without even realizing it).

Because evil, evidently, is dumb.

I didn't really get that impression, at least not the same as the ending of Return of the Jedi as (spoilers?) the Empire was not defeated by Luke being the best at fighting and defeating the Emperor in martial combat, but convincing his father to turn from the Dark Side.

That was why Luke was the chosen one, not because he was the best fighter to destroy Vader, but that only Anakin's son could possibly convince him to return.

Yoda and Obi Wan kept saying he was not ready to "face" or "confront" Vader.

Luke: "I can't kill my father"
Obi Wan: "then the Emperor has already won"

Did Obi Wan dismay that Luke said he couldn't kill his father... or dismay that Luke thought his purpose was to kill him? I don't care about Lucas' actual intention, the DVD in my collection is set (can't get that one Georgie boy!) and open to interpretation. Maybe none of the characters actually knew HOW a (Luke) Skywalker would end Palpatine's evil reign, just that he would.

In the end, Harry Potter WAS just about him killing Voldermort. He found all the Horcruxes through cunning, luck and a bit of magical providence. Harry's "power of love" manifested itself simply in him being more powerful at magic shit-kicking. It wasn't like Vorldermort was undone by an inherent part of his evil.

The Emperor WAS undone by his evil, by almost torturing Luke to death, even after he had spared Vader and refused to fight Palpatine nor give in to the dark side, that was the motivation for Vader/Anakin to strike down his evil master. The last thing the Emperor would expect for his most slavishly loyal protector to turn on him. His evil made him under-appreciate the love a father had for his son. This act undid what had apparently been a self-evident truth that hate made people stronger, as Luke saw when he attacked and defeated Vader in a rage over the suggestion he would turn Leia. But it was suddenly subverted to be that empathy - the need to protect others - was the source of that strength.

You don't really get that same depth of conflict between emotions of your own selfish well-being and emotions for others.

And before you say this ending comparison is unfair; Both Luke and Harry willingly gave themselves up to the evil side after they (on their own initiative) concluded their presence is jeopardising their friends, where they ultimately stood before the Great Evil to be struck down.

The difference is Luke was saved by the Emotions, feelings and reasoning of another CHARACTER, in a profound and unexpected way: Vader's defection. Harry was saved by Deus Ex machina, a contrivance that the penultimate Horcrux was in him and that somehow that doesn't kill him, even though every other Horcrux was destroyed by destroying the host object/organism.

And once the final Horcrux was gone with Neville's blow-up-the-death-star moment decapitating that snake, Harry out zapped Voldermort in magic zapping contest. Voldermort ultimately was defeated because "Harry's love" had more destructive power. That defies what "love" should be.

Love should prevail not through strength but unity. As Vader united with his son against the emperor. As Sam and Frodo's platonic friendship allowed them to endure and finally destroy the One Ring. The Terminator lowering himself into molten steel to prevent a horrible war of the machines.

Also, Luke has some very human crisis of faith along the way, he is taunted by the Emperor into trying to strike him down though eventually tries to reason with his father.

That is why I am really not so moved by Harry Potter. I still am in awe of Luke of the Original Star Wars trilogy. It's jsut damn near perfect.

SmegInThePants:
hand gun would be tricky, voldy could just go 'accio gun' and now he's shooting you w/your own gun. and despite how separated they are from the muggle world, i really don't see how they could unaware of such an old and ubiquitous technology as the gun. they have magic cars and clocks and other copies of mechanical muggle devices. I would think voldy would at least have a vague idea of what it could do upon seeing one.

rifle would be better, could get him from afar before he even knows you are there. what's that noise? where'd voldy's head go?

land mine would be even better, no one in this magic world of HP ever checks for land mines, and voldy's always telegraphing where he's gonna be

would he even recognize a grenade? Even if he had heard of them, they don't look particularly threatening. just leave it in the middle of a walkway you know he will pass. he'll pick it up, pull the pin out, puzzle over what its supposed to do, bam! No tripwire or anything fancy even needed.

Voldermourt was brought up as a muggle. He would have a basic knowledge of human weaponry. How far away can Voldermourt read minds? Very far away. He enters the minds of everyone in Hogwarts to send them messages from a distance. This is from outside the grounds. He can read the minds of people using rifle, from a distance. Snipers are literally the only gun that has a hope and even then, multiple headshots are a must. Even then its not a plot hole as Voldermourt would be aware of when muggles with long range weaponry become involved and would probably protect himself for such an occasion.

SmegInThePants:
and if they're in contact w/the muggle prime minister and voldy's army is harassing muggles - then we have access to drones, missiles, helicopters, etc... Can attack from even greater range than a sniper rifle (much greater), w/the right vehicles/weapons. Ask harry where voldy is, send a bunker buster that way, dropped from such altitude no one notices the fly-over.

And if Voldermourt takes the precaution to make his position unplottable to muggles? Bunker busters might be dangerous. Drones, missiles and helicopters, not in the slightest. With a single slick of a wand a drone or helicopter would be removed from the air. Even a simple charm like flippendo could take them out. Missiles could be fooled in an almost uncountable number of ways. Simply taking control of the object and flicking it away like a fleck of dust comes to mind.

janjotat:

It would probably cost a lot of lives for muggles to figure out the extent of magic capabilities. (teleporting would confuse them and make it dificult to pinpoint his location) Rather than I sniper team I would just carpet bomb any area wizards were thought to be in.

You can't carpet bomb something when you can't even pinpoint its location. All major wizarding areas are unplottable due to wildly used wizard magic which can be performed by even weak wizards.

No muggles can enter, or find, or plot on a map a wizarding area.

Im off to bed. Ill counter anything interesting I see tomorrow. Honestly if you haven't read the (vastly superior) books then trying to pick plot holes is silly. Most of these have already been explained in the books.

Familiar with World of Darkness 'Mage' at all?

The whole paradox system might apply. Shit works the way it does because we *believe* it should. Nothing exists without belief, basically, and that includes physical laws.

In Mage, if 'magic' is used in front of the unenlightened (let's say muggles, for arguments sake), it fucks their perception of reality. When someone sees a bald snake-man hurling green fire from a stick .. they say 'this shit ain't real'. And hey presto, it ain't.

I like to think that the wizards in Harry Potter's world likewise keep the hell out of the muggle world because it would kill their magic by the majority of humans not believing in it. Likewise with technology back in the magic world.

nice to have a couple people not trying to crap down this guys throat. while its pretty pointless to debate this in the first place, this is kind of a loophole. but since we're doing this, why dont they use timeturners to save the potters, stop voldemort at any point, save dumbledore or really any number of things (as soon as you play with time magic the rules start to break down). for that matter, why didnt the eagles fly frodo to mordor (not too busy to take gandalf off a tower)?

SaneAmongInsane:
Okay from the other topic, someone brought up the question about why they didn't just shoot Voldemort. Now I use to watch these movies with my ex and drive her up the wall with all my questions cause really a LOT of what the magic community does doesn't make sense and is overly pretentios, but this question I investigated in earnest.

On one hand your argument is stupid because you're talking about a guy who can see through the eyes of other people and disappear in a puff of smoke. You'd also have to find someone who can actually navigate around the magical parts of the world (which according to the stories are invisible non-magic folk) and can operate a gun with a degree of accuracy and the reflexes to shoot dead a guy who can move faster than the eye can follow and kill with a thought.

On the other less literal side of things you're also talking about a metaphor for white supremacy/racism in general. What kind of lesson is it to say "Why don't we just kill all the genocidal maniacs?"
Voldemort is a sort of magical Fuhrer (not Hitler specifically), the death eaters are Nazis, Muggles take the role of Jews in WWII. Muggle sympathisers and mud-bloods are killed indiscriminately. The Harry Potter books are basically the Holocaust+Magic.
I say Voldemort is not a direct analogy for Hitler because he encompasses the idea that though you may kill one genocidal maniac, another will spring up in his place - thus the sub-plot about horcruxes.

You've clearly thought about this a lot, but you haven't thought your arguments through nearly enough.

caviar1:
nice to have a couple people not trying to crap down this guys throat. while its pretty pointless to debate this in the first place, this is kind of a loophole. but since we're doing this, why dont they use timeturners to save the potters, stop voldemort at any point, save dumbledore or really any number of things

Because they were all destroyed in the 5th book I believe. They were destroyed before the ministry accepted that voldermourt was back. They had no reason to use the devices if they didn't believe voldermourt was alive.

The real question is why would the ministry keep such powerful devices all in one place. That mistake led to them being destroyed. Arrogance more than a plot hole really.

goodpoint, they still couldve saved the potters though and stopped voldemort the first time, right?

Treblaine:
*Snip*

Yeah, I prefer Jedi's approach but then there's that "father-son" angle that Harry Potter lacks.

The books do a better job of explaining it, but my observation is sound: Harry's love strengthens his friends, while Voldemort's evil leads to self-destruction. Think about it: every "advantage" Voldemort gains against Harry backfires on him, from attacking Lily and James Potter to stealing the Elder Wand. His hatred for Harry Potter isn't based on anything Harry himself has done, but Voldemort attacks Harry again and again, convinced that Harry has to die in order for Voldemort himself to live.

Two things can solve that universe's entire problem with that voldemort guy.

1. An unused condom.

2. Time turner.

:P

That or a high powered sniper rifle and a time turner. Honestly, just combine anything with a time turner! And they're easy to get, they apparently just hand them out to good students.

that would have made an excellent ending actually, the wizards collectively realizing how dumb it is to keep their entire way of life secret for no adequate reason and hiring a sharpshooter to snipe voldemort from the next continent over.
even if he is a bad enough dude to stop a bullet that he had no idea was coming, i'm fairly certain he'd be distracted enough by that to be taken down by someone else. EVEN IF he was awesome enough to instantly recover from that, i'm pretty sure most of his higher-ups aren't up to pulling that kind of a stunt. how would ol' voldy feel if all his trusted death eaters had one small hole in their foreheads and the back of their heads were missing?

and after the war is over? how can the wizards possibly justify letting the muggles suffer like they are? all the starvation going on? do you guys have a drumstick? well that drumstick is now large enough to feed the entire country. Dying of AIDs? you don't have aids, what are you on about? can't find some terrorists? *glances at crystal ball* they are uh, over there-ish. no not there, a little more to the left.

so on, and so on.

Actually this is brought up once, in the first book i believe. harry asks hagrid why the wizards live in secret, to which hagrid replies
"well everyone would want magic to solve all their problems!"
thing is my fat friend, magic CAN solve all their problems, with quite little difficulty in fact.

Because in almost every work of fantasy involving magic the following tropes operate in full effect:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GunsAreWorthless

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImmuneToBullets

Forlong:

DoPo:
But is he fast enough? How quick can he speak the words and wave his hands? I'll go ahead and assume he already holds the wand. He has to 1. Be aware of the possibility to be shot at 2. Be prepared 3. React instantaneously or in advance.

He can preform the killing curse without saying "Avada Kadavra". Plenty of other spells too.

The non-verbal function is more about other wizards not knowing what spell you're casting, rather than increasing the speed of casting (hence why top wizards know Occlumency, to know what their opponent is thinking). You'd still have to think the words in your head, and that will take at least half a second to do, which is more than enough time for a high-speed hello by good old atomic element 82. Voldi might be able to take a stab at what's coming, but there's no way he'd be able to get up an adequate defense in time, especially since he's not really that much of an "extra-curricular studies" kind of guy. Hell, he wasn't even able to protect himself from all magical threats, the things he would logically face, so mechanical implements wouldn't have even come up on his "to do" list of protection spells (if they even exist).

So in short, he'd die against a gun, though it honestly doesn't matter seeing as Thomas "Voldemort" Marvolo Riddle is already KIA. There's no point in shooting a dead horse.

SnakeoilSage:

Treblaine:
*Snip*

Yeah, I prefer Jedi's approach but then there's that "father-son" angle that Harry Potter lacks.

The books do a better job of explaining it, but my observation is sound: Harry's love strengthens his friends, while Voldemort's evil leads to self-destruction. Think about it: every "advantage" Voldemort gains against Harry backfires on him, from attacking Lily and James Potter to stealing the Elder Wand. His hatred for Harry Potter isn't based on anything Harry himself has done, but Voldemort attacks Harry again and again, convinced that Harry has to die in order for Voldemort himself to live.

How does Harry's exceptional love for his friends help vanquish Voldemort than if he had an entirely functional relationship with his companions? Neville killed the final Horcrux and he had an impersonal relationship with Harry.

Harry survived as a baby because his mother acted as a human shield... magically. Somehow this Killing Curse killed both her AND reversed it back on Voldemort to kill him, and the final part of his Horcrux go into Harry. Actually, this sacrifice-spell makes the killing-curse a hugely impractical mode of killing. Of all the ways you could kill someone, be it with a spear, crossbow, gun, flamethrower, chainsaw... what could they possibly do to make such an attack kill themselves but ALSO kill the dealer? Short of a suicide-bomber's vest which kills everyone within a 20 meter radius.

And killing curse is apparently the only spell which is SPECIFICALLY designed to kill. The question shouldn't be why don't they shoot Voldemort but rather why doesn't Voldemort use a gun himself!?!? Guns WITH magic would be a HIGHLY effective combination. Like combining laser guidance systems with high-explosive air-dropped bombs, to give the Laser Guided Bomb that can deliver several tons of high explosives right through a ventilation shaft... or some "Force" guide a proton torpedo down a thermal exhaust port:

image

All the magic in Harry Potter just seems so arbitrary and open to abuse it's meaningless even within a work of fiction. It's not like a new set of rules, it's rules change all the time.

And the Elder Wand thing. That's not love, that's providence. Or in this case where we know it is a book, plot contrivance. JK Rowling conveniently made the random events of wands exchanging hands means the Elder Wand was Harry's and then introduce the element of obedience in wands so refuse to cast a Killing Curse on the owner... even though it did so minutes earlier, where Harry was again saved by convenience beyond his plan or will, did the wand "know" that?

This has nothing to do with love and compassion. This has to do with Harry stealing Draco's wand after he betrayed Dumbledor and Voldemort not understanding the rules of magic that Rowling is clearly making up as she goes along. So larceny on top of betrayal depending on ignorance...

PS: first you say Voldemort is motivated to kill Harry by hatred. Then suddenly you say he is motivated by practicality, that he thinks he must do it to survive. Which is it? Is it both? It's not unreasonable to hate someone that is going to cost you your life, even if a delusional opinion that makes him insane, not evil. Insane to kill a baby at a time when it clearly posed no threat nor ability to even indicate threat.

Forlong:
I'm pretty sure Voldemort knows at least one spell that could stop 3 ounces of lead in mid-air.

to all those saying similar things to this i have the solution....
a predator drone the size of a toy plane thousands of meters in the air dropping a hellfire missile on his head which would vaporize him making it damn hard to regenerate
(the predator missile is designed to take out tanks/building once in Afghanistan they needed to use it on one person because it was the only weapon they had which had the accuracy required for the shot and they didn't find the guy afterwards, no body parts nothing)

i find it hard to see how people can even argue about this and make Voldemort out to be the ultimate bad ass, he was beaten repeatably by 3 school children! once he got beaten by a baby! im pretty sure a SAS team could more than handle him then maybe those magic users could share there magic with us and stop being so greedy about it

wow you are actually spending time arguing against the "it's magic" explanation.

also while the muggle world would win in an all out war the wizards would be pretty dumb to let that happen, they can move anywhere they want to, there is nothing muggles can do to stop them and they can mindcontrol people.
but i guess it would work once, then voldemort would rebuild his body and from that day on everyone goes into battle with a protective spell that stops bullets.

I like to think that muggle government have their own men in black who deal with wizard things, who were ready to drop some JDAMs on death eater lairs if reports from the Wizarding world turned out really bad.

Guns? Wizards don't need guns.

I think it'd be even easier for them to have used avada kedavra on him, and all the death eaters, for that matter. It's unblockable, right? There were so many occasions during which Harry had every opportunity to kill Voldemort at the flick of a wand.

Like, I know it's an unforgivable curse, but... it would have made things a lot easier for everyone. And saved nearly every life lost over the course of the series.

Could have fit it into the fourth book, which I personally think is the best one. Book five is where it started going downhill. Book four introduced the unforgivable curses, so there's the final piece of knowledge Harry needs. The horcruxes and prophecy haven't been introduced yet, so they can't fuck it all up. Voldemort is reborn and they have a climactic showdown in the graveyard, the payoff after a three-book buildup (with a teaser in the first!).

I never noticed it before, but that would have been the perfect place to end it.

Treblaine:
How does Harry's exceptional love for his friends help vanquish Voldemort than if he had an entirely functional relationship with his companions? Neville killed the final Horcrux and he had an impersonal relationship with Harry.

Harry's love for his friends is what drives him. When he's facing Voldemort in battle, he's able to hold his own against a vastly superior wizard because he fights for people he cares about, and isn't afraid of dying to protect them. Rowling establishes those kinds of emotions as having power.

As for Neville, he was touched more by Harry's goodness than you think. It's barely touched on in the movies, but the books has Neville joining the Defense Association, gaining friends and confidence from their support. He and Harry meet in the hospital in The Order of the Phoenix, when Neville is visiting his mind-broken parents, and the two make a personal vow, as "orphans" of Voldemort and his evil, to make their parents proud. That strength drives Neville to hold his own against a Snape-run Hogwarts and, when he sees Harry has sacrificed all against Voldemort, he finds the courage to break Voldemort's paralysis, draw Griffyndor's sword from the Sorting Hat, and slay Nagini.

Harry survived as a baby because his mother acted as a human shield... magically. Somehow this Killing Curse killed both her AND reversed it back on Voldemort to kill him, and the final part of his Horcrux go into Harry. Actually, this sacrifice-spell makes the killing-curse a hugely impractical mode of killing. Of all the ways you could kill someone, be it with a spear, crossbow, gun, flamethrower, chainsaw... what could they possibly do to make such an attack kill themselves but ALSO kill the dealer? Short of a suicide-bomber's vest which kills everyone within a 20 meter radius.

The "somehow" you mention is love. Lily was willing to die defending her son, and when Voldemort killed her, her sacrifice created a powerful ward on Harry. When Voldemort turned his killing curse on Harry, that ward repelled the magic that destroyed Voldemort's body. Even Voldemort mentions this, calling it "old magic" that he didn't consider when he tried to kill Harry, and goes so far to use Harry's blood to rebuild his new body thinking that it would circumvent the protection her love provided (and it did, to a small extent).

And killing curse is apparently the only spell which is SPECIFICALLY designed to kill. The question shouldn't be why don't they shoot Voldemort but rather why doesn't Voldemort use a gun himself!?!? Guns WITH magic would be a HIGHLY effective combination. Like combining laser guidance systems with high-explosive air-dropped bombs, to give the Laser Guided Bomb that can deliver several tons of high explosives right through a ventilation shaft... or some "Force" guide a proton torpedo down a thermal exhaust port:

image

Magic sometimes has an odd effect on technology built during or after the Industrial Revolution. This is most obvious when Arthur Weasley's car spontaneously "goes feral" and drives itself off into the woods, where it presumably remained.

For that matter... why would Voldemort, an insane wizard-supremacist, even consider touching a "filthy muggle" artifact? They very idea would make his skin crawl, and to borrow from your own example "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant, next to the power of the Force."

All the magic in Harry Potter just seems so arbitrary and open to abuse it's meaningless even within a work of fiction. It's not like a new set of rules, it's rules change all the time.

Yes, they do. I believe Rowling herself admitted as much. Magic exists outside of physical laws, so it stands to reason that it can be easily convoluted.

And the Elder Wand thing. That's not love, that's providence. Or in this case where we know it is a book, plot contrivance. JK Rowling conveniently made the random events of wands exchanging hands means the Elder Wand was Harry's and then introduce the element of obedience in wands so refuse to cast a Killing Curse on the owner... even though it did so minutes earlier, where Harry was again saved by convenience beyond his plan or will, did the wand "know" that?

In the Elder Wand's case it's an example of Voldemort's evil destroying himself. He seeks it out, believing it would prove more powerful than Harry's wand (since his own wand is it's "equal" and when he used Malfoy's wand, it blew up), never imagining that it was Harry's mindset: his courage and willingness to fight and die for his friends, that was making Harry the "better man" in this duels. Voldemort can't even conceive of love so he just kept seeking "stronger" wands, believing that the Elder Wand, as the strongest, would turn the tied.

I admit, how it switched hands is very convoluted, but I would imagine it understood what was happening as Voldemort cast the killing curse on Harry: first it sensed its true target was the fragment of Voldemort's soul inside Harry, and second it knew it was being used against its master. Ollivander suggests that wands can choose their allegiances, and the wand doubtless felt that Harry was the more worthy wielder.

I won't say it's not convoluted, but this is how the books play out.

This has nothing to do with love and compassion. This has to do with Harry stealing Draco's wand after he betrayed Dumbledor and Voldemort not understanding the rules of magic that Rowling is clearly making up as she goes along. So larceny on top of betrayal depending on ignorance...

Larceny, betrayal, and ignorance seem to have a lot to do with the absence of love, however, don't they? Voldemort stole, Voldemort betrayed, Voldemort refused to consider the power of love in Harry, and it cost him dearly.

PS: first you say Voldemort is motivated to kill Harry by hatred. Then suddenly you say he is motivated by practicality, that he thinks he must do it to survive. Which is it? Is it both? It's not unreasonable to hate someone that is going to cost you your life, even if a delusional opinion that makes him insane, not evil. Insane to kill a baby at a time when it clearly posed no threat nor ability to even indicate threat.

Obviously he set out to kill Harry as a matter of practicality: we can't have a boy destined to destroy me lurking about. He read his Evil Overlord List. But as Voldemort's efforts continued to fail and backfire, it quickly turned to hate, with a little fear and desperation mixed in.

Think of it this way: you're playing a multi-player game, and someone kills you. Fair enough. But then you spawn in, and he kills you again. Now you've got a grudge to settle. You seek him out, hoping to get even, but in the ensuing battle he kills you a THIRD time. You start actively hunting him, intent to make him pay. You start making mistakes; maybe you let your teammates die so you can chase this guy around the map, maybe you leave yourself open to being killed by your new enemy's own teammates. But it goes on and on and you can't land a single kill, and even worse, he kills you a few more times. Tell me you wouldn't start getting pissed off as this point.

Ok. I take it the OP never read the books. The movies do the books about as much justice as Stephanie Meyers does to literacy (ZING!) so allow for my...well...I suppose "counter-counter argument" (although I really don't care much to actually argue on this topic):

"Why don't they nuke Hogwarts" - Hogwarts, along with many other locations, such as #12 Grimwold (sp?) Place, St. Mungos (again, sp?) and Diagon Alley are all protected with illusions and other magical spells that render them invisible to the muggles perception. Even if they wanted to nuke hogwarts, they would need to locate it, which wouldn't work because it's location, with said enchantment looks like a giant, green field and forest. Last time I checked, the Brits aren't too keen on just nuking large open spaces in their own country for the hell of it.

"Why don't they just shoot him/shoot him repeatedly?" -

Voldemort got to be the most feared wizard for a reason. Not because he's immortal. But because he is powerful. In particular, what I feel would make this extremely difficult is his ability to read the minds of those around him. He is able to enter the mind of individuals and force them to tell him what's going on. So I am almost certain, as he had agents posted in all major police forces, special agencies etc in the "muggle world" that he would be tipped off if there was an assassination attempt. This aside, the Minister of Magic had a deal worked out with the Prime Minister that they would "take care of their own" (i.e. the wizards would take care of voldemort, so gtfo). Now, lets say for instance someone were to just walk up and shoot him. A sociopath for instance. That would most likely work (element of surprise) but it's not like Voldemort went around window shopping at the local square, or drinking at the local pub. Even when he had all but taken over the wizarding world, he was always under HEAVY guard. Even if there was a sniper somewhere, I'm sure the shit-ton of dementors flying around would spot them and steal their soul.

So the chances that someone would be able to walk up, shoot him, wait for his soul fragment to reform into a body (a period that the first time took around 13 years) only to do it again is HIGHLY unlikely, and would also make the book very boring (not to mention a super long series).

In conclusion. It's a book. It's fiction. It's supposed to be fun and suspenseful. It's like taking a classic like Stephen King's "It" and saying "why didn't the kids just shoot Pennywise?"

It's because it would take what is an amazing book and would make it crap for the sake of someone who doesn't really care about the subject matter.

I don't know if anyone said this already, but I believe JK Rowling herself once said "a muggle with a gun would beat a wizard with a wand anyday".

Muggles- 1

Wizards- 0

It also seems like the Wizardry world is... Pretty much almost completely out of touch with the "muggle" one. I'm not sure if I remember it correctly, but during one chapter of the Prisoner of Azkaban, I believe they tried to get "Muggle Authorities" on their side by claiming Sirius black was a dangerous killer and they referred to the weapon he used as a "Metal or sometimes wooden stick, like a wand, that makes a large boom and kills people."

If they had trouble even coming up with the word for a gun, I think it really shows that they don't pay much attention to what goes on in the "outside world" and probably would be unaware to the many, many, MANY advances regular humans have made to weaponry, hell most of them seem to barely understand basic "Muggle" fashion or the fact that our tents don't have chimneys coming out of them. Then there's the whole "Flying car is illegal" deal, which could be seen as the Ministry trying to crack down on the use of "Muggle" tech. (They have a whole class devoted just to studying "Muggle Life" which goes pretty far to show how the two sides know next to nothing about each other)

Although Harry and Hermione not mentioning it seems pretty inexcusable.

Normally, I'd just roll my eyes and move on. It's a series of fictional books full of real plot holes, for crying out loud.

But since I was just woken up by bad news and need something to distract me...Let's look at these counters.

SaneAmongInsane:

1. You tell me some sort of electronic device doesn't work, I get it. Theres no telling what a magical aura could do to electricity. However a gun is mechanical and chemical. I have to assume if a pully and rope can work in Harry's universe a revolver would work to. Maybe you could argue that the gun powder wouldn't combust... But an obvious solution to that would be just use the wizard-chemical-equalvelent of gun power. Then you got yourself a magic gun!

The series does establish some level of interference with muggle technology. I think it even goes so far as to indicate problems with some mechanical devices. Combining magic and tech doesn't seem to be incredibly effective in this world, and worse, opens itself up to the question of whether or not it would allow Voldie to defend it.

2. Bullshit. First off, most of the spells require either saying a two syllable word and making a motion with the wand and I doubt Volde could do that against a bullet. Secondly, Voldemort being the racist that he is wouldn't know what a gun is/does if he saw one so he wouldn't have anyway of anticipating the impending bullet.

The books definitely establish that spells can be done without that. Sorry. Secondly, Voldemort was initially raised in the "muggle" world and stood a very good chance of knowing what a gun did and how it worked.

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

Because wizards have no way of healing serious wounds.

...Actually, that kind of opens up a real plot hole, but that's a can of worms for some other argument.

4. NO! I freaking hate this response, because all it is trying to cover up how poor the story really is. Hey, I get a kick out the series, but this is a glaring serious plot hole. The whole reason the stakes are high is because the magic world assumes that unless Harry stops volde the muggles wouldn't stand a chance... Truth of the matter is, and JK Rowling said so herself, that in a straight up war with the magical realm the muggles would win. We have vastly superior technology and armor, not to mention numbers.

The story is really good, actually. It's not without flaws, but there's quite often an easier solution than the one given. Hell, Darth Vader was only an issue because the entire Galaxy was handed a major idiot ball.

Good storytelling can still be riddled with holes, and in this case it definitely was. And the less said about the last book, the better. But really, you're talking about stories that involve prophecies and chosen ones. You're arguing that something as contrived and forced as the "destiny" cliché should be undone by firearms?

The only reason, the only GOOD reason why they didn't shoot Voldemort is because Harry just plain didn't think of doing it... and seeing as how both he and hermione both came from the muggle world and never once even lampshaded it I see is a major flaw in the whole series.

To be fair, Hermione seemed pretty much to believe the doctrine of "magic is awesome." And Harry wasn't very bright.

Also, it's a British series and I'm not sure about the mindset, but I'm willing to bet their first solution as a result is probably not gun-toting Yahoos. Without them being a major presence in the lives of the Brits, it would be fairly unsurprising they didn't think much of it. So I see no need to lampshade it, and it hardly seems a major flaw. It's fun to laugh at, poke fun at, but a major flaw? The minute you picked up books about a chosen one, you signed off on exactly this sort of thing. It's kind of like complaining about elves and dwarves in a fantasy book.

Hell, this is a world where they can bug a WORD.

Jonluw:
-SNIP-

May have been posted in the pages since, but just in case, covering the same ground....

I loves me some HISHE.

WeAreStevo:
In conclusion. It's a book. It's fiction. It's supposed to be fun and suspenseful. It's like taking a classic like Stephen King's "It" and saying "why didn't the kids just shoot Pennywise?"

It's because it would take what is an amazing book and would make it crap for the sake of someone who doesn't really care about the subject matter.

Incidentally, it's also the sort of thing that takes the fun out of PnP RPGs sometimes. The players think more like the audience and less like characters in a story. Not only will they avoid the game's potential pitfalls, not only will they spend about ten hours trying to avoid dozens of pitfalls that never occurred to you, but they will often avoid the game.

Which is great, but when you think about it, the most practical solution is to stay home in the first place. So since we've kicked that out the window....

And back to books, nobody wants to read about the sensible adventurers who stayed home, got a safe job at the local pub, and lived a safe and boring life.

Also, I'm picturing your description of the scenario as the worst case of spawn camping ever. XD

Plus, if the worst thing someone can say about an author is they didn't think of literally EVERYTHING, they're not doing that bad.

Wait, wait... you're seriously complaining about a plot hole in a kids book? Why? If you prove your point, what do you gain? You assume fans of the book will stop loving it because you're right? What? I guess you wouldn't like Terminator either.

How about this: They're a society that's secluded themselves from muggle ways, with only the rare few handling muggle technology, most have come accustomed to using magic for everything, perhaps a gun is not something they would consider. Perhaps they see muggle weapons as nothing more then toys for the 'dim-witted' muggles to use. Maybe they have rules about bringing muggle items into their world.

Maybe there's the fact that unless they steal a gun, they need to go out, get one, register themselves for the gun and purchase it with money they don't use. Then they can go back and use the gun they don't know how it works, to try and kill a guy who'll probably kill them before they get the hang of shooting him.

And then there's the concept of having a gun... if they have one, why doesn't Voldemort take a machine gun? Hell, why doesn't he force his way through the army to get tanks and other such devises, using magic to hide his presence/teleport into the place and kill everyone before they know what's going on? Who knows, maybe Voldemort had servants studying muggle weaponry and pretending to be muggles so they can go into the army and learn the muggles forces for the day he came back at full force.

I mean seriously, why do people need to attack other peoples loves, just because they spotted a flaw in it?

SaneAmongInsane:

well... heres my counter argument,

1. You tell me some sort of electronic device doesn't work, I get it. Theres no telling what a magical aura could do to electricity. However a gun is mechanical and chemical. I have to assume if a pully and rope can work in Harry's universe a revolver would work to. Maybe you could argue that the gun powder wouldn't combust... But an obvious solution to that would be just use the wizard-chemical-equalvelent of gun power. Then you got yourself a magic gun!

It is stated in the books that muggle technology doesnt work as it is supposed to with too much magic around it, in the sense that it can become erratic, as in a gun could explode in the hand of the wielder or it could just not fire, "magic in the air" makes things like that volatile and random in the chemical sense

2. Bullshit. First off, most of the spells require either saying a two syllable word and making a motion with the wand and I doubt Volde could do that against a bullet. Secondly, Voldemort being the racist that he is wouldn't know what a gun is/does if he saw one so he wouldn't have anyway of anticipating the impending bullet.

it is stated in the books that by the mere thought of the word and a slight motion in the wand, the most experienced and powerfull wizards can cast spells without utering a single word, take for instance "sectusempra" which can be cast withouth saying the words and works best that way because it was intended to be used as a surprise attack, also, Voldemort knew several things about the muggle world because he was muggle born himself, if anyone tryed to get near him with a gun, a simple "protego" would keep him from harm

3. So Voldemort comes back... Just keep shooting everytime he resurrects. It's not like it's instantaneous, and you could probably do it several times before he actually could come up with an effective counter... and even then, just have hermione snipe him from across the pond. The time granted (instead of being wasted fighting him with magic) would be invaluable in finding the remain horcruxes.

lets say you shot him the first time and miraculously the gun worked fine and the bullet "killed" him, when he gets back he will know what a gun does, and as stated before a simple protego would avoid him further injury, even more your reasoning doesnt makes sense in the world they live because it is highly doubtful that hermionie would be able to perform a sniper shot, let alone any being that hasnt being trained in the military... also to note is the fact that the only one that knew about the horcruxes Voldemort made was Dumbledore and Harry, that knowledge required a lot of investigation in the past memories of severall people to string together (it was supposed to be a forbidden AND forgotten magic) and even then they had no proof or evidence that he actually made any, so it would again be the duty of Harry to find them and destroy them given that most of the people that gave them that information where afraid of being framed and placed under arrest for severall reasons and the info had to be bullyed from them.

4. NO! I freaking hate this response, because all it is trying to cover up how poor the story really is. Hey, I get a kick out the series, but this is a glaring serious plot hole. The whole reason the stakes are high is because the magic world assumes that unless Harry stops volde the muggles wouldn't stand a chance... Truth of the matter is, and JK Rowling said so herself, that in a straight up war with the magical realm the muggles would win. We have vastly superior technology and armor, not to mention numbers.

The only reason, the only GOOD reason why they didn't shoot Voldemort is because Harry just plain didn't think of doing it... and seeing as how both he and hermione both came from the muggle world and never once even lampshaded it I see is a major flaw in the whole series.

the main reason the magic world is against being discovered by the muggle world is that same thing you are saying, the muggles would erradicate all kinds and forms of magic killing thoudsands of wizards and other magical beings, something no one wanted and voldemort was too... stupid to think a simple muggle could be a treat to him, Harry wasnt protecting so much the muggle world, he was protecting the wizard world from being destroyed.

also, dont get so mad about being wrong, you like the series, cool, but there is logic in the world of Rowling, and that last response is just the polite way of saying "i know no matter what i say you will keep trying to find something to ruin the story so i will just give you something to stop arguing with me by accepting you are right but i dont care"

any more inquiries feel free to write them to me, i have read the whole set of books over 10 times and know every single aspect from them, i hated the movies because they left things unexplained (like that exact gun question you are pondering)

SaneAmongInsane:
Snip

The reasons are much more straight forward than that. They are magical minors in a world that shuns muggle technology that they can that is located in a country that makes it nearly impossible for any citizen to get a gun.

No great leaps in logic, no "wizard's are immune to guns" business. Just a simple answer.

The idea that Voldemort wouldn't know what a gun is or how to defend himself from one is unlikely as he spent as much time or more than Harry in the muggle world and would probably know it better. If my memory serves correctly by the 6th year Harry was learning spells without needing the words so it is possible that because he wouldn't need to speak Voldemort could shield himself or transfigure the gun without being shot himself unless taken by surprise. Healing magic appears to be advanced enough that unless hit in the brain they could recover as missing all of the bones in your arm is something that takes only a night to heal. Voldemort himself was rarely seen outside and fighting himself, I believe that other than the seventh book he only fights when resurrected in the fourth book and at the end of the fifth making it significantly harder to get a chance to shoot him.

On another subject I have a hard time picturing any serious fighting between muggles and magicals ending in any other situation than a resounding victory by the magical forces, we would be utterly slaughtered.

I would be more worried about other plot holes. Like is Lily the only mother in the entire war to die trying to save her son? If it is so important that Harry stays at his Aunt's house for the protection during the summer why does he also spend time at places like the world cup and several weeks at diagon alley?

There was never an opportunity to just shoot him as anyone who truly knew he was a murderous psychopath where all magical beings. As the books and movies pointed out, people who are magical can't figure out even the simplest of muggle technology. This would include a gun.

Even if the muggles he killed had a gun I would doubt anyone would have a chance to shoot. I personally would of just looked confused as he pointed a stick while shouting nonsense at me.

Muggle technology on Hogwarts?! Noooo! I mean, it is not like they ever used a camera in the movies! Oh wait? They did? One that takes moving pictures? So they made a magical version of muggle tech?

WHAT? We do not know if it actually took moving pictures? So it might have been an old fashioned muggle camera?

In stupid conclusion; Magical version of muggle tech works perfectly. So does this gun that uses magic to shoot lead at high speed.

image

maybe the people who caught them took a oath not to kill somebody without a proper trial.
they could just use the death spell to kill him.

It's set in Britain, nobody thought of that?

HentMas:

It is stated in the books that muggle technology doesnt work as it is supposed to with too much magic around it, in the sense that it can become erratic, as in a gun could explode in the hand of the wielder or it could just not fire, "magic in the air" makes things like that volatile and random in the chemical sense

Mechanical and chemical machinery work just fine in Hogwarts. The locks on the doors all work without magical help, which is on par with the mechanics of most guns. There is also the train, which appears to run on steam and not on magic, which requires combustion to be possible. Also, if chemical machines don't work, which our entire body is made of, would mean students would drop dead as soon as they take a step into the castle.

it is stated in the books that by the mere thought of the word and a slight motion in the wand, the most experienced and powerfull wizards can cast spells without utering a single word, take for instance "sectusempra" which can be cast withouth saying the words and works best that way because it was intended to be used as a surprise attack, also, Voldemort knew several things about the muggle world because he was muggle born himself, if anyone tryed to get near him with a gun, a simple "protego" would keep him from harm

The problem isn't ability, it is reaction time. Your average round can go anywhere from 800 to 1400 feet per SECOND, which takes less time to cross the room than you have to think a single letter, or even to comprehend that a gun has been fired. Also hitting a super sonic tiny piece of lead with a glowing piece of energy that has been shown slow enough to dodge from only feet away is not that easy.

Your also assuming to much about the shield spell. Potego has never been shown to protect from physical attacks moving at the speed of a bullet, and has always been in reaction TO a spell, not to prepare FOR a spell, nor have we ever seen any character hold protego for the duration than the spell they are attacked with. How years of dueling have taught Voldermort how to use the shielding spell would prove disasterous when faced with fast moving lead.

Also, bringing in stealth is giving one group a tremendous advantage over the other. If I go full Solid Snake mode and stab all the gaurds, does that mean my tiny little knife is more dangerous than their AK-47's?

lets say you shot him the first time and miraculously the gun worked fine and the bullet "killed" him, when he gets back he will know what a gun does, and as stated before a simple protego would avoid him further injury, even more your reasoning doesnt makes sense in the world they live because it is highly doubtful that hermionie would be able to perform a sniper shot, let alone any being that hasnt being trained in the military... also to note is the fact that the only one that knew about the horcruxes Voldemort made was Dumbledore and Harry, that knowledge required a lot of investigation in the past memories of severall people to string together (it was supposed to be a forbidden AND forgotten magic) and even then they had no proof or evidence that he actually made any, so it would again be the duty of Harry to find them and destroy them given that most of the people that gave them that information where afraid of being framed and placed under arrest for severall reasons and the info had to be bullyed from them.

Well, how would he know what killed him? The bullet got to him even before the SOUND of the bullet did. When he returns YEARS later, confused as to how a lowly muggle killed him, he may find out but doesn't mean he will instantly know how to counter it? You expect him to have a shield charm on ALL the time. While raised in an orphanage, we have no idea how much he learned about guns, or if he remembers any of it. How much do you remember from the classes you took before you were eleven?

And do you really expect him to walk around with a shield charm up all day?

the main reason the magic world is against being discovered by the muggle world is that same thing you are saying, the muggles would erradicate all kinds and forms of magic killing thoudsands of wizards and other magical beings, something no one wanted and voldemort was too... stupid to think a simple muggle could be a treat to him, Harry wasnt protecting so much the muggle world, he was protecting the wizard world from being destroyed.

also, dont get so mad about being wrong, you like the series, cool, but there is logic in the world of Rowling, and that last response is just the polite way of saying "i know no matter what i say you will keep trying to find something to ruin the story so i will just give you something to stop arguing with me by accepting you are right but i dont care"

any more inquiries feel free to write them to me, i have read the whole set of books over 10 times and know every single aspect from them, i hated the movies because they left things unexplained (like that exact gun question you are pondering)

No, it is simply because they are from a society that shuns muggle tech and weapons, which is in a nation that makes it impossible for a citizen to own a gun. As three minors in the U.K., where are they going to get a gun? Neither Harry nor Hermione have any reason to know a gun runner, nor is Hermione going to let them steal one from the police over the Statue of Magical Secrecy.

FalloutJack:
Another good explanation is that the wizarding community just puts too much faith IN magic, believing that technology is really just a thing, a parlor trick (rather ironic mode of thinking that it is). In short, hubris! They live in a world of dragons, hexes, and flying brooms! The comfort and safety of a well-armed fighter jet with machine guns and missles would be lost upon them.

Frankly, I say ole' Tom hates normal people because nothing he's got can amount to "I am death, destroyer of worlds." and never will.

This.

The argument, that wizards don't know what a gun is... well...
In the third book, Sirius Black is reported to be armed with a gun. If I am not completely mistaken, the daily prophet says: "A sort of metal wand muggles use to kill each other".
This means, guns are NOT general knowledge. But since everyone reads the bloody daily prophet...

Also world wars...
One might think, that even sorcerers' history books report about something like 1000s of fighter planes reducing whole british cities to dust. Magic shield yourself all you want. But even if you are not seen. If a bomb hits you, your done. The argument that the blast of an explosion cant travel through the barriers is bullshit.
They have wind too, dont they?

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