SEXISM! What's with the standards?

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To the twelve people who quoted me

Yeah, I didn't phrase my arguments entirely well, but I'm glad to see many of you got the gist of it.

I really hate having to sink to this sort of thing.
I never really like talking this sort of thing on here, I think it honestly brings out the worst in me, because it depresses me.

Gamers like to say how inclusive they are, but when I'm forced to defend my gender (and common sense) over and over, it starts feeling like you are only included if you are male or dont mention that you are female.

And as much as I would love to go elsewhere and save myself headache.
What would that prove?
That I dont belong in this community. :P, I just have to hope that we as a community can mature.

GraveeKing:
See it's things exactly like this that when I'm called a sexist I can happily say.
Damn-well better than being a feminist - at least I believe in equal rights.

Happily displaying ignorance about feminists. Weird.

We USED to live in a society where women got no respect, and men were meant to treat them with extra care because they were delicate.
Now we need to treat them with even more care AND respect. If you want respect - EARN it! I don't decide to randomly give out respect - but they will take it personally when I say I don't.

Yeah, because clearly women are all demanding more respect than guys are shown. Oh wait, not really. And the people I see usually demanding that 'extra care' bit are men. Not sure if I've seen a woman do it, but around here I see that and most people accept it as a valid attitude or something.

I mean god if you even dare say you don't respect any random female they'll call it sexism - and yet they expect me to meet someone and instantaneously respect them BECAUSE of their gender?

Or maybe you're just paranoid and delusional. No, women are not all like that. Get real.

Everyone else works for it - but you seem to need to take even more care of a woman - the fact that (some - not all) like kids or you're automatically being a pervert makes you think that really, some people aren't just too sensitive - but really need to get over it.

Yeah, you sound like you're just making a paper thin excuse to be sexist. "I don't treat women with the same respect because everyone else earns it! Women never do!" Ha.Ha.Ha.

Feminists are right on one thing though - women do not have equal rights.
They have many... MANY more.

This is based on an incredible amount of evidence of course. That you can't show us or the Feminist Conspiracy will come and kill you!

I'm glad not all women in our society are like this - or really the general population would stop growing in all first-world country's....

Nah, you'll just accuse most women of it based on nothing.

Mau95:

Not if they're going overboars. I'd tell everyone to "man up" if they were overreacting. Which is also what I would have told the woman in the scenario.

OP: Wow, that sucks man. Condolences and stuff. It's sad that this stuff still happens. What country was this?

No worries, it was a number of years ago, and despite everything, he's moved on.

This was in Canada, by the way.

Phasmal:
To the twelve people who quoted me

Yeah, I didn't phrase my arguments entirely well, but I'm glad to see many of you got the gist of it.

I really hate having to sink to this sort of thing.
I never really like talking this sort of thing on here, I think it honestly brings out the worst in me, because it depresses me.

Gamers like to say how inclusive they are, but when I'm forced to defend my gender (and common sense) over and over, it starts feeling like you are only included if you are male or dont mention that you are female.

And as much as I would love to go elsewhere and save myself headache.
What would that prove?
That I dont belong in this community. :P, I just have to hope that we as a community can mature.

What defense of your gender did you have to do? The obligatory 'I'm going to assume he's generalizing based on one experience' that never happened?

I pointed out a double standard that, for all it's weight against women, is somehow MORE weighted against men.

If a guy does anything anybody on the PLANET doesn't think is macho, he gets belittled and his masculinity is pulled into question.

My old boss actually called me a girl for saying 'Ouch' when I sliced my finger open on a jagged strip of sheet-steel. <Situations like that and worse are so common these days that very few people notice or care anymore.

It doesn't matter to me if you're a girl/woman or not, finding fault in an argument that isn't there is simply making yourself a victim, which, by the way, simply perpetuates an already sickeningly common stereotype.

Griffolion:

Darius Brogan:
-snip-

You know, as terrible as this stuff is, it really doesn't shock me. I have a friend who, when going through his divorce, was pretty much branded a pedophile by the court (simply because his wife said so, it was all utter lies), lost his job, lost his position on his kids' schools parent teacher board, lost all his friends and a vast quantity of his money. The worse thing was, that the British justice system didn't even invite him to the divorce hearings, they didn't even tell him about them. So he wasn't able to get into court and defend his position. Naturally, she won.

I'm not a fan of feminism. Why? Because all the "feminist" friends I have all say the same thing. "Feminism is about equality".

No.

Equality is about equality.

Feminism was created in the early 20th century as a reaction to the wrongful, extreme cultural and lawful oppression of women. Those women, rightfully stood up for themselves, and won themselves the vote and tons of other things over that century. Nowadays, feminism is a shell of what it used to be, and has actually become the thing it is supposedly against. It's now just an exclusive club for women to rant about men in society and the remaining inequalities. It personifies exclusion.

Me personally? I stand for equality. Equality for women, LGBT's, disabled individuals, etc. I stand for equality in all aspects of life, cultural, lawful, work etc. I speak and act consistent to this belief, I treat all people as equally as my flawed personality allows. Any inconsistencies get learned from and I move on.

Feminism is redundant, it now comes under the wider and more powerful banner of equality, for everyone.

Just give me a minute to get my flame suit on, this is clearly going to rile some people.

If that riles people up, then they've obviously got some form of hatred in them anyways, and they don't matter.

Equality is something everybody should strive for, and if more people did, perhaps the Radical Feminist movement wouldn't have gotten so large so fast.

Darius Brogan:

Phasmal:
To the twelve people who quoted me

Yeah, I didn't phrase my arguments entirely well, but I'm glad to see many of you got the gist of it.

I really hate having to sink to this sort of thing.
I never really like talking this sort of thing on here, I think it honestly brings out the worst in me, because it depresses me.

Gamers like to say how inclusive they are, but when I'm forced to defend my gender (and common sense) over and over, it starts feeling like you are only included if you are male or dont mention that you are female.

And as much as I would love to go elsewhere and save myself headache.
What would that prove?
That I dont belong in this community. :P, I just have to hope that we as a community can mature.

What defense of your gender did you have to do? The obligatory 'I'm going to assume he's generalizing based on one experience' that never happened?

I pointed out a double standard that, for all it's weight against women, is somehow MORE weighted against men.

If a guy does anything anybody on the PLANET doesn't think is macho, he gets belittled and his masculinity is pulled into question.

My old boss actually called me a girl for saying 'Ouch' when I sliced my finger open on a jagged strip of sheet-steel. <Situations like that and worse are so common these days that very few people notice or care anymore.

It doesn't matter to me if you're a girl/woman or not, finding fault in an argument that isn't there is simply making yourself a victim, which, by the way, simply perpetuates an already sickeningly common stereotype.

To be honest, I was speaking in more general terms, not just about this thread.

I'm not sure where you're going to with the `if a guy does something unmacho` thing. Men and women both have to deal with being punished for disobeying gender stereotypes. Okay, a dude called you a girl.
I've been cornered, called a lesbian and threatened for not acting womanly enough.
If I speak on games, I cant even repeat the shit that gets said. :P

Sometimes it sucks to be everybody.

I'm not sure which argument `isnt there`? That women are discriminated in this community?
They are.

I dont see myself as a victim of anything, its just something that bugs me, and I can't pretend it isn't there. Again, its not always, just enough times to make my brain explode.

oktalist:

Darius Brogan:
snip

I notice in your posts you have placed a much greater emphasis on double standards that affect men as opposed to double standards that affect women.

Isn't that, like, y'know... a DOUBLE STANDARD?

EDIT:

Darius Brogan:
Sexism has become so ingrained into society

No it has not become ingrained, it has always been ingrained. A subtle difference, but an important one.

Well, I could most certainly have worded my comments better, yes, but it was three am and I was really really tired at the time.

However, I do not, in any way, mean to focus specifically on the double standard towards men, but it IS being more-or-less overlooked by most of society, while women are getting some rather large attention groups.

Double standards of any kind are ridiculous, and I'm seriously surprised at how common they are in todays world.

Also: That is very true...

For.I.Am.Mad:
Yeah, well call it reparations for women being treated like animals for....thousands of years. I'm sorry worse than animals. I'm pretty sure the family dog was treated better than the wife, in some cases.

I'm going to make this as clear as humanly possible: NOBODY DESERVES REPARATIONS FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO SOMEBODY ELSE HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO! Clear enough?

Go back and read a history book, and you'll realize that, in some way shape or form, everybody has been treated worse than dirt at some point in time.

Women were seen as property for a goodly portion of time, but were they ever whipped and beaten until they couldn't stand after working an 18hour day in a cotton field? I doubt it.

Were they wantonly massacred by invaders looking to claim new land? Seriously doubt that too.

Women fought for their rights, and they won.
African Americans fought for their rights, and they got them.
Natives fought for their land, and they got it.

Reparations are just a pathetic excuse for people who've rarely, if ever, been inconvenienced to bitch and whine about something that happened to their great great great grandparents, and expect money or preferential treatment in return.

Judging by the tone of your story, your friend was a union employee. Having worked for several years in a management office for the discipline of all union employees under our contract, and having attended countless arbitration meetings, I can positively assure you of two things.

1. Women get preferential treatment during litigation proceedings concerning unions, due in large part to the effect that most Unions have a male and a female representative for their members, and the women is without question always the sharper on the paperwork side. 4

Which leads me to...

2. Arbitrators always go with the paperwork. They are not like normal judges. They look at all the paperwork put forward by both parties, and rule off that. If your friend had a clear and well viewed habit of perceived sexual harassment or negative behavior,

And rest assured, the FIRST thing management does in these cases is stop the office, cold. Then they spend a day or week, depending on the size, getting written statements from EVERY worker in that office, going back 365 days, or the "statute of limitations for discipline". If the witness statements show any behavior like what is being "grieved", they prepare the case for discipline. They also review the persons involved for past discipline, prior offenses, and previous issues. They then review the notes and evaluations of the manager or supervisory chain. They then, and only then, when discipline has been decided upon as a path, speak to the accused, with a union rep present. The person is interviewed, or "interrogated" as the manual writes it, to discern their story.

Then all information is accumulated and discipline is decided as yes or no. They then, based off previous similar cases and past history, estimate type and scope of discipline. This all is compiled in a disciplinary report, which, if the person decides to fight the discipline, is given to an arbitrator, in triplicate. The arbitrator then goes over the ENTIRE process again, which usually takes 4-6 months, unless fast tracked (NEVER HAPPENS, Arbs are paid by the hour) and the Arbitrator hands down a decision, and in that decision he or she says two things. Discipline is the correct path, or incorrect, and the proposed punishment is fair. If it is unfair, they can alter the scope, but not the type.

tl:dr - Sounds alot like 1. Your friend had a history of this type of behavior, well documented and well established, and 2. he made a REALLY shitty case for himself to management.

Das Boot:

Darius Brogan:

EDIT: Oh yes, just for the record, He didn't 'leave anything out' of his story, and I didn't 'Miss anything' because I was there. Right there, in person. When she went off her rocker and decided she was going to sue. If I hadn't been tthere, I wouldn't have bothered to say anything.

Either you left out an extremely large portion of this story or it is all a load of bullshit you made up for some stupid reason. I dont really care which it is or even why you would bother writing something as stupid as that.

For the umpteenth time: I don't care if you believe me or not, it's still true.

I see no reason to lie in real life, so why is the internet any different?

I was going to post something profound and strongly worded, some type of essay. I was actually writing it.

Now I'm cleaning the snot from nose. Fuck.

I don't like to cry and I'm glad this is the internet so none of you can see me right now.

OP? I'm sorry to see your friend hurt like that. I've got a Cousin who lost his house to his ex-girlfriend and her daughter-from-another-marriage. He's angry and hurt, caught somewhere between wanting to be the 'bigger man' wanting justice that the courts won't give him and wanting to go and get some justice on his own. He's so wrapped up in his pain he can't see anything else. So now he's an alcoholic.

Dude, what can I say? It seems that gentleness is leaving the world wholesale.

In the west chicks are rising into positions of power. It's because of technology. And honestly the world will be different in 20 years. What we need is for women to recognize their current and expanding social and political power and make a broad social stigma that values gentleness in these areas of power. Just like we need Bros to see their physical power as facet of their existence and self regulate by using a principle of gentleness.

Honestly I don't think we can change our current generation. I'd like to, I hope for it, but realistically I don't think it's going to happen. So for me, I'm going to raise my sons to be fair and my daughters to be gallant. I'm going to love each and every one of them and hold them to a high standard of morality, and love when they fail because they tried hard.

Peace, got to go wash my face before class. Love you'all.

This sounds like a job for anon, if what op says is correct. Bitch deserves to lose everything.

BloatedGuppy:

Darius Brogan:
I would like to know your thoughts on the subject, fellow Escapists.

EDIT: Oh yes, just for the record, He didn't 'leave anything out' of his story, and I didn't 'Miss anything' because I was there. Right there, in person. When she went off her rocker and decided she was going to sue. If I hadn't been tthere, I wouldn't have bothered to say anything.

Wow. Well. Hmm.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with the people calling foul on this story. I don't know if it's because you're showing profound editorial bias on behalf of your friend, or if it's an outright fabrication, or if you're just not good at expressing yourself. Whatever the cause, my horseshit detectors are going off like crazy. And it's not even confirmation bias, I'm plenty willing to believe that a sexual harassment case ended up as guilty until proven innocent.

But if we're to take this hypothetical situation you've presented us with at face value, the one in which a bat-shit crazy lady with no clear motivations falsely accuses your completely innocent and upstanding friend of a mild infraction, at which point he is railroaded by a presumably corrupt institution and has his life destroyed with no opportunity for appeal or recourse, then...what do I think? I think that's pretty bad! And surprising! And bad!

Well, there are a number of posts addressing the situation to which the validity of my statements is being called into question, and on those posts, you'll see something like this: I don't care if you believe me, it's true. I see no reason to lie.

Darius Brogan:
Well, there are a number of posts addressing the situation to which the validity of my statements is being called into question, and on those posts, you'll see something like this: I don't care if you believe me, it's true. I see no reason to lie.

I think it's a given that you don't care whether or not people believe you. If you did, you would've presented us with a less fantastical narrative.

Darius Brogan:
[I pointed out a double standard that, for all it's weight against women, is somehow MORE weighted against men.

If a guy does anything anybody on the PLANET doesn't think is macho, he gets belittled and his masculinity is pulled into question.

My old boss actually called me a girl for saying 'Ouch' when I sliced my finger open on a jagged strip of sheet-steel. <Situations like that and worse are so common these days that very few people notice or care anymore.

Yeah, if a guy doesn't seem tough enough, his masculinity will be questioned and he'll be said to be less. That is, he'll be said to be too female.

Equating weakness with feminity might not be much fun for the men, but it's obviously worse for the women.

Yes, such things are common and people don't care, despite the best efforts of feminists who aren't just there to take away people's toys.

GraveeKing:
See it's things exactly like this that when I'm called a sexist I can happily say.
Damn-well better than being a feminist - at least I believe in equal rights.

We USED to live in a society where women got no respect, and men were meant to treat them with extra care because they were delicate.
Now we need to treat them with even more care AND respect. If you want respect - EARN it! I don't decide to randomly give out respect - but they will take it personally when I say I don't.

I mean god if you even dare say you don't respect any random female they'll call it sexism - and yet they expect me to meet someone and instantaneously respect them BECAUSE of their gender?
Everyone else works for it - but you seem to need to take even more care of a woman - the fact that (some - not all) like kids or you're automatically being a pervert makes you think that really, some people aren't just too sensitive - but really need to get over it.

Feminists are right on one thing though - women do not have equal rights.
They have many... MANY more.

I'm glad not all women in our society are like this - or really the general population would stop growing in all first-world country's....

It is very, very gradually in a slow manner diminishing in I believe Europe and Japan.

I'm sorry about what happened to your friend. No modifiers on that.

But for every man who loses his job due to a false claim, ten men sexually harass at the workplace and face no repercussions. For ever man who gets thrown in jail for a false rape claim, one hundred men rape and then go free. For every man who loses his kids in a divorce, ten beat their wives to death before she even has the chance to speak to a lawyer.

It's always wrong when someone suffers for something they didn't do, but cases like this are exceptional because the opposite is so common. If you take a wide view of our society, there's no way a man can say he has it harder unless he is choking on his own male privilege. And this is coming from a man who has no shame whatsoever in being male. I don't hate my gender. I don't wish I was a woman. I simply have an honest view of the way the world works, and sadly a fundamental facet of that is the subjugation and marginalization of women throughout every strata of our society.

If we had a thread made every time the opposite of this incident happened, i.e. where a woman was sexually harassed, made a claim, and had it dismissed or straight-up ignored, then the forums would be flooded. Men don't have to deal with sexism every day of their lives, so when they do encounter it, they seem so shocked and indignant. Truth is, every once-in-a-lifetime complaint I see here from men happens daily to most women.

Suck it the fuck up.

Phasmal:

To be honest, I was speaking in more general terms, not just about this thread.

I'm not sure where you're going to with the `if a guy does something unmacho` thing. Men and women both have to deal with being punished for disobeying gender stereotypes. Okay, a dude called you a girl.
I've been cornered, called a lesbian and threatened for not acting womanly enough.
If I speak on games, I cant even repeat the shit that gets said. :P

Sometimes it sucks to be everybody.

I'm not sure which argument `isnt there`? That women are discriminated in this community?
They are.

I dont see myself as a victim of anything, its just something that bugs me, and I can't pretend it isn't there. Again, its not always, just enough times to make my brain explode.

I can understand where you're coming from, but you did make yourself a victim by saying you had to defend your gender, when there was no attack on women in the first place.

And my boss calling me a girl is is simply the more recent of a long string of incidents I've dealt with.

For my entire high-school career, I lived with almost everybody assuming I was gay, because I don't hunt women.
My best friends girlfriend called me a fucking pussy because I got in-between her and him while they were fighting, and she kicked my in the nuts so hard I actually couldn't breath for a minute.
I almost got expelled from middle school for grabbing the wrist of a girl who was trying to claw my eyes out (Figuratively speaking) but she was still viciously attacking my face.

The fact that sexism towards women gets so much face-time, while sexism towards men is on a back-burner because it's un-manly to care about it, is just sickening.

As for the video-game stigma, I can say this: Ignore them. It's what I did all through High-School, and that was in person.

BloatedGuppy:

Darius Brogan:
Well, there are a number of posts addressing the situation to which the validity of my statements is being called into question, and on those posts, you'll see something like this: I don't care if you believe me, it's true. I see no reason to lie.

I think it's a given that you don't care whether or not people believe you. If you did, you would've presented us with a less fantastical narrative.

Yeah, well the truth is stranger than fiction.

I'm not exaggerating when I say she started yelling, and didn't stop for five minutes, when the boss left his meeting to see what was going on.

Call it what you will, think of me what you will, none of it is important to me.

thaluikhain:

Darius Brogan:
[I pointed out a double standard that, for all it's weight against women, is somehow MORE weighted against men.

If a guy does anything anybody on the PLANET doesn't think is macho, he gets belittled and his masculinity is pulled into question.

My old boss actually called me a girl for saying 'Ouch' when I sliced my finger open on a jagged strip of sheet-steel. <Situations like that and worse are so common these days that very few people notice or care anymore.

Yeah, if a guy doesn't seem tough enough, his masculinity will be questioned and he'll be said to be less. That is, he'll be said to be too female.

Equating weakness with feminity might not be much fun for the men, but it's obviously worse for the women.

Yes, such things are common and people don't care, despite the best efforts of feminists who aren't just there to take away people's toys.

How is it worse for women?

When a woman becomes strong and independent, she's risen above her stigma of weakness, and she can take pride in that face, even though many sexist pricks will still think little of her.

If a man DOESN'T become strong, independent, manly, macho, or whatever, he's viewed as a weakling, a pansy, gay, or any number of retarded little groups and epithets pinned on a man not acting the way a man should.

Darius Brogan:
Call it what you will, think of me what you will, none of it is important to me.

Darius Brogan:
I would like to know your thoughts on the subject, fellow Escapists.

I would suggest, in the future, when the opinions of others are so completely unimportant to you, you cease to ask for them on internet forums.

BloatedGuppy:

Darius Brogan:
Call it what you will, think of me what you will, none of it is important to me.

Darius Brogan:
I would like to know your thoughts on the subject, fellow Escapists.

I would suggest, in the future, when the opinions of others are so completely unimportant to you, you cease to ask for them on internet forums.

I wanted to know your thoughts on the subject.

In what way does that imply that they're important to me?

Darius Brogan:

Freechoice:
To anyone who thinks that the gender divisions are equal, look at the TV Tropes page linked below. Nearly all of the male examples are either bodily or psychologically harmful if they occur. A lot of the female examples only occur as tropes in entertainment/art works.

Link

This may come off as a bald-faced-lie, but I've personally experienced almost all the Male Tropes in my life-time...

It's terrifyingly sad that I've brushed it off so often.

Oh, some of those are infuriating. The "No Guy Wants to be Chased" one particularly irritates me. My girlfriend and I got together because she saw me at a party, thought I was hot, and approached me shyly. She fancied me, and there's nothing wrong with that. It was liberating, I'll tell you.

Darius Brogan:
I wanted to know your thoughts on the subject.

In what way does that imply that they're important to me?

There are degrees of importance. The use of the word "want" implies a degree of importance.

Regardless, we are bickering over semantics. You asked for opinions, you got opinions. You don't care that I think you're a fabulist, and I don't care if you are a fabulist. I just think it's funny, that's all.

Darius Brogan:
Snip.

If a woman becomes strong and independant, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

Darius Brogan:

Kendarik:

Darius Brogan:

EDIT: Oh yes, just for the record, He didn't 'leave anything out' of his story, and I didn't 'Miss anything' because I was there. Right there, in person. When she went off her rocker and decided she was going to sue. If I hadn't been tthere, I wouldn't have bothered to say anything.

I don't believe you. Without some evidence, I don't believe a decision that large would have been made if that were the only incident and if you gave all the details.

Also I know men who have successfully complained about sexual harassment so you are wrong on that front too.

As I've stated numerous times before: I don't care if you believe me, because I know it's true. I feel no need to lie in real life, so why would the internet be any different?.

And I never said anything about guys never successfully filing suit, did I? No. I pointed out a double standard.

If it applies to both sides then it isn't a double standard.

edit: Oh thank god! Keep Solve media instead of Captcha ("accidentally on purpose" lol)

Phasmal:

Darius Brogan:
Snip.

If a woman becomes strong and independant, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

except being rich, I mean really rich, because hey, if you can afford to wipe your ass with a hundred pound bill then no one cares what gender you are.

....The rich suck :(

BloatedGuppy:

Darius Brogan:
I wanted to know your thoughts on the subject.

In what way does that imply that they're important to me?

There are degrees of importance. The use of the word "want" implies a degree of importance.

Regardless, we are bickering over semantics. You asked for opinions, you got opinions. You don't care that I think you're a fabulist, and I don't care if you are a fabulist. I just think it's funny, that's all.

The perceived importance of an opinion has no bearing on its validity or the quality of its information.

You could be the president of the US, and your opinion would be no more important than the potato farmer coming in from Idaho.

Phasmal:

Darius Brogan:
Snip.

If a woman becomes strong and independent, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

Well, it all depends on the individual in situations like that, really.

A woman can be strong, independent, outgoing and cheerful at the same time, but if you take independence to mean that you need to become a complete bitch, closed off the the rest of the world, you tend to garner a reputation as such.

Though I do tend to agree with you on: Sometimes it really does suck to be everyone.

Kendarik:

Darius Brogan:

Kendarik:

I don't believe you. Without some evidence, I don't believe a decision that large would have been made if that were the only incident and if you gave all the details.

Also I know men who have successfully complained about sexual harassment so you are wrong on that front too.

As I've stated numerous times before: I don't care if you believe me, because I know it's true. I feel no need to lie in real life, so why would the internet be any different?.

And I never said anything about guys never successfully filing suit, did I? No. I pointed out a double standard.

If it applies to both sides then it isn't a double standard.

edit: Oh thank god! Keep Solve media instead of Captcha ("accidentally on purpose" lol)

The double standard is that women complain about sexism all the time, and it gets attention, fact-time etc... but it's not manly for a guy to complain about the same.

I would imagine sexism is sexism, but apparently guys don't have the right to be offended or hurt by sexism, because it makes them pansies.

peruvianskys:

But for every man who loses his job due to a false claim, ten men sexually harass at the workplace and face no repercussions. For ever man who gets thrown in jail for a false rape claim, one hundred men rape and then go free. For every man who loses his kids in a divorce, ten beat their wives to death before she even has the chance to speak to a lawyer.

Ever heard of the Blackstone formulation?

"It's better to let ten guilty men walk free than to punish one innocent man."

Itīs easy to say the opposite of that until you are the innocent man being punished.

OT: Sexism goes both ways. There are both misandrists and misogynists out there and just because one exists does not give use the right to ignore the other. Just because women receive some privilege does not mean that men lose the same privilege just as even if women are treated unfairly in some situation does not make it okay to treat men unfairly in other situations. What should be done is work towards equality for everyone no matter what.

Not to mention that many (not all though) cases of misandry are also cases of misogyny. "Domestic abuse can't happen to men because women aren't strong enough to abuse men" vs "dude suck it up. Real men don't get abused by girls" or " The woman must raise the children instead of the man since she's better suited for it, being a woman and all" vs "Men aren't as good as raising children" or "Women can't rape men since they are to small and weak" vs "Dude you got to have sex why are you complaining? Are you a pussy?"

evilthecat:

spartan231490:
I don't recall asking to "still be seen as tough, independent and physically capable" I'm asking for violence to be seen as violence, regardless of who the perpetrator/victim is.

Perhaps I phrased it wrong..

It doesn't really matter what you want, you are seen as more independent, you are seen as more physically capable. You are expected to react differently to violence because of what is between your legs.

This is not some disconnected abstract point. This is precisely why violence against you would be treated less severely than it would against someone female.

spartan231490:
I pointed out that the gap is so massive that violence has been accepted as funny when it's perpetrated against a man, but as a nearly unforgivable crime when perpetrated against a women.

And who benefits?

That's all I'm asking you to consider. Who really benefits from that state of affairs? Who benefits from its perpetuation. Whose interests does it serve to have society still work like that?

Because you are insisting that there is some terrible prejudice against men here, when (taken as a whole) practically all the violence in our society, including the violence against men which is "accepted as funny", is perpetrated by men. So why are you fixating on violence against men by women as if it should somehow be treated differently? As if it should be special?

Are men prejudiced against themselves?

spartan231490:
I have no opposition to getting my ass kicked, so long as no lasting damage is done to my body. Frankly, if someone went that far, I probably deserved it, and I think that our society in general needs to stop making a huge deal out of things that aren't that important, including a little innocent fighting.

So it's okay to apply the same definition to everyone, men and women? It's okay to kick their arses as long as they aren't permanently hurt? They probably deserved it anyway?

You don't see any problems with that?

Well frankly, I wasn't trying to say that men get the short end of the stick from society, I was simply pointing out that some things are prejudiced against men. I also pointed out that many things are prejudiced against women, so I'm not entirely sure why you quoted me the first time. But anyway, men aren't viewed to react differently to violence because of what's between their legs. In general, men are bigger, hardier, and stronger. That's a simple truth, and that is the reason that men are expected to react to violence differently, not because they have a penis.

And it is some disconnected abstract point. If your house is on fire, you don't start arguing about why it's on fire, or who the fire benefits the most, you call the fire department and put it out.

And I'm not the one who's saying that violence against men by women should be treated differently, I'm pointing out that it is treated differently and it shouldn't be. In fact, I'm also saying the same thing about violence against women by men. All violence should be treated the same.

As for who benefits, I don't really see that anyone does. Except that women can get away with slapping or even beating on a guy with almost no repercussions, but I don't see that as much of a benefit. You keep saying that most violence is perpetrated by men, but women do it too, and they should be treated the same.

I feel like there was a mis-understanding on this last part. I don't think it's ok to kick someone's ass, but even a single slap can technically be considered assault, and I don't believe it's fair to charge someone with a felony level crime just for giving someone a bruise. And yes, it is 100% ok to apply that definition to everyone.

I'm not talking about beating someone unconscious or breaking bones, I'm just talking about when an argument gets a little heated and a punch or two is thrown. This shouldn't be the serious crime that it is. I think that our society does this with a lot of things, but that's a separate issue. I don't think it should be a crime with the punishment that assault carries unless either A) serious harm was done, or B) there was the intent to do serious harm. That's all I was trying to say, and I feel the same way no matter who the participants are.

Bradeck:
Judging by the tone of your story, your friend was a union employee. Having worked for several years in a management office for the discipline of all union employees under our contract, and having attended countless arbitration meetings, I can positively assure you of two things.

1. Women get preferential treatment during litigation proceedings concerning unions, due in large part to the effect that most Unions have a male and a female representative for their members, and the women is without question always the sharper on the paperwork side. 4

Which leads me to...

2. Arbitrators always go with the paperwork. They are not like normal judges. They look at all the paperwork put forward by both parties, and rule off that. If your friend had a clear and well viewed habit of perceived sexual harassment or negative behavior,

And rest assured, the FIRST thing management does in these cases is stop the office, cold. Then they spend a day or week, depending on the size, getting written statements from EVERY worker in that office, going back 365 days, or the "statute of limitations for discipline". If the witness statements show any behavior like what is being "grieved", they prepare the case for discipline. They also review the persons involved for past discipline, prior offenses, and previous issues. They then review the notes and evaluations of the manager or supervisory chain. They then, and only then, when discipline has been decided upon as a path, speak to the accused, with a union rep present. The person is interviewed, or "interrogated" as the manual writes it, to discern their story.

Then all information is accumulated and discipline is decided as yes or no. They then, based off previous similar cases and past history, estimate type and scope of discipline. This all is compiled in a disciplinary report, which, if the person decides to fight the discipline, is given to an arbitrator, in triplicate. The arbitrator then goes over the ENTIRE process again, which usually takes 4-6 months, unless fast tracked (NEVER HAPPENS, Arbs are paid by the hour) and the Arbitrator hands down a decision, and in that decision he or she says two things. Discipline is the correct path, or incorrect, and the proposed punishment is fair. If it is unfair, they can alter the scope, but not the type.

tl:dr - Sounds alot like 1. Your friend had a history of this type of behavior, well documented and well established, and 2. he made a REALLY shitty case for himself to management.

I'll admit freely that there's a lot I was never privy to in regards to his case, but I can say, with a clear conscience, that he'd never had any problems or complaints set against him before.

His case was weak specifically due to lack of experience in situations such as that, and he was taken apart because of it.

Mortai Gravesend:

spartan231490:

Mortai Gravesend:

Prevalent? Your evidence is what, your personal experience?

Frankly, evidence for this is everywhere. How many women have you met who have said the phrase: "All men are X" How many women have you met who haven't? How many Men have you met who have said "All women are Y" How many men have you met who haven't? How many sitcoms have you watched where women slap men and people laugh? How many sitcoms have you watched where men slap women and people laugh? I mean, frankly, this shouldn't even have to be addressed, you don't need to cite sources for common knowledge, look around.

You're hilarious. I don't see people explicitly say either of those first two. I sure see people come close on the second one sometimes around here.

That's surprising, I hear the phrase: "All men are pigs" several times a day. I've never actually heard the phrase: "all women are X" directly, but I heard the same idea in different words all the time as well. But those aren't the only examples, any legitimate look at our culture shows gender bias working both ways. Next time you go to a sit-down restaurant, actually look at how many of the servers are men/women. The overwhelming majority will be women. With construction workers, on the other hand, the reverse is true. I'm not saying which side has it worse off, I'm just saying that there are huge gender bias's in our culture and that this fact is so obvious that no sources are needed. He's not trying to prove anything because there's no proof needed. He's just relating his experiences on the subject and initiating a discussion.

Also, discussion forms are places for opinions and anecdotal evidence, not conclusive scientific proof. If there was conclusive scientific proof, there would be no discussion. It's like having a discussion about the existence of gravity. Everyone agrees, let's move on. It's not a discussion. There has to be uncertainty in order for there to be a discussion, and so you have to allow arguments to be made that aren't conclusive, otherwise you have no discussion.

Darius Brogan:

Phasmal:

Darius Brogan:
Snip.

If a woman becomes strong and independent, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

Well, it all depends on the individual in situations like that, really.

A woman can be strong, independent, outgoing and cheerful at the same time, but if you take independence to mean that you need to become a complete bitch, closed off the the rest of the world, you tend to garner a reputation as such.

Though I do tend to agree with you on: Sometimes it really does suck to be everyone.

Lol.
Independant does not mean closed off, but some people do take it to mean `a bitch`.
So saying independant means being a bitch is just.. sort of shooting yourself in the foot.
EDIT: I was a little unclear here, what I mean is I seriously doubt any woman thinks independance is achieved by being a bitch, but that label tends to get stuck on them anyway.

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