SEXISM! What's with the standards?

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Phasmal:

Darius Brogan:
Snip.

UUUUUUUGGHHHHHHHH

Apparently this needs saying, because we are all five. There are terrible PEOPLE. Some PEOPLE are terrible. Yes?

It is very hard for legitimate victims of sexual assault/harrassment at work to get recognised, and stupid statements like `Women expect X` dont HELP anyone.
Women are not one being.
Women are not all out for money at work.
Some PEOPLE are out for money at work.
And terrible WOMEN are not TERRIBLE BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN.
Yes, it sucks that she was believed, I'm really suprised the dude couldn't appeal.

Being a woman on this forum is getting fucking tiring.

Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

This needs to be brought to attention, not that women are terrible, women are great! I'm sure you are great, but the problem is that you could probably say I'm harrassing you ONLY for saying that. That is what needs to be discussed, wether you find it tiring or not. If women seek equality they also need to do something about these screwed up social rules.

In short, it's not about insulting women, it's about wanting actual equality instead of treating one gender as overlords.

Mallefunction:

Matthew94:

For.I.Am.Mad:
Yeah, well call it reparations for women being treated like animals for....thousands of years. I'm sorry worse than animals. I'm pretty sure the family dog was treated better than the wife, in some cases.

I see this "argument" frequently and it's total bullshit.

You weren't around thousands of years ago, you didn't suffer that kind of discrimination so you have no right to take "reparations" or whatever name you like to call it.

Also it's horrifying to think you think it is ok for a woman to make a false claim and destroy a man's life because her ancestors hundreds of years ago were discriminated, I find that repulsive.

Even in the past woman had advantages over men, they never had to go and fight for some king who made them die for a piece of land, no they stayed at home and life went all. Do men ask for reparations for being forced to fight for all those years? No.

Oh you poor POOR babies. You know what you just said is exactly like a white person saying to a black person that they have NO RIGHT to be angry over that whole "slavery" thing because they were given a homes by their poor white masters who had worked hard to earn that land in the first place.

The male gaze, it shows SO bad here.

No, that's putting words in my mouth (and shows a lack of reading ability).

I'm saying a black person now shouldn't ask for handouts due to slavery now as it was their ancestors that were enslaved hundreds of years ago not them. The same applies to women, most these days have grown up with essentially no discrimination at all and therefore shouldn't feel justified if they DESTROY SOMEONES LIFE.

Phasmal:

Darius Brogan:

Phasmal:

If a woman becomes strong and independent, she's frosty, frigid, she's failing her children by working, she's emasculating her husband by out-earning him.

Sometimes it sucks to be everyone.

Well, it all depends on the individual in situations like that, really.

A woman can be strong, independent, outgoing and cheerful at the same time, but if you take independence to mean that you need to become a complete bitch, closed off the the rest of the world, you tend to garner a reputation as such.

Though I do tend to agree with you on: Sometimes it really does suck to be everyone.

Lol.
Independant does not mean closed off, but some people do take it to mean `a bitch`.
So saying independant means being a bitch is just.. sort of shooting yourself in the foot.
EDIT: I was a little unclear here, what I mean is I seriously doubt any woman thinks independance is achieved by being a bitch, but that label tends to get stuck on them anyway.

Believe me, there are women out there who become vicious attack-dogs to get where they want to be.

Like I said, it's a pretty individual situation. You can be independent and awesome, or you can be independent and bitchy, or any combination of things, but it's all in what conclusion you come to, to get where you want to be.

Crazycat690:
Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

Did you actually just call someone "missy"? For reals?

It's really frightening to live in a world where you can have your reputation dragged through the mud by the simple accusation of sexual misconduct, long before your guilt or innocence is ever established.

By the same token, I imagine it's even more frightening to live in world where you're constantly at risk of being the victim of sexual misconduct, and you'll get YOUR reputation dragged through the mud if you try to report it after it happens.

Both men and women would be well served to stop talking past one another on the issue of sexism and recognize that there are justifiable causes for concern on both sides of the ledger. And really, this forum is male dominated, and on more than one occasion has proven to be a festering pit of barely constrained misogyny, so I don't blame the resident female posters for being a little sensitive.

spartan231490:

Mortai Gravesend:

spartan231490:

Frankly, evidence for this is everywhere. How many women have you met who have said the phrase: "All men are X" How many women have you met who haven't? How many Men have you met who have said "All women are Y" How many men have you met who haven't? How many sitcoms have you watched where women slap men and people laugh? How many sitcoms have you watched where men slap women and people laugh? I mean, frankly, this shouldn't even have to be addressed, you don't need to cite sources for common knowledge, look around.

You're hilarious. I don't see people explicitly say either of those first two. I sure see people come close on the second one sometimes around here.

That's surprising, I hear the phrase: "All men are pigs" several times a day. I've never actually heard the phrase: "all women are X" directly, but I heard the same idea in different words all the time as well. But those aren't the only examples, any legitimate look at our culture shows gender bias working both ways. Next time you go to a sit-down restaurant, actually look at how many of the servers are men/women. The overwhelming majority will be women. With construction workers, on the other hand, the reverse is true. I'm not saying which side has it worse off, I'm just saying that there are huge gender bias's in our culture and that this fact is so obvious that no sources are needed. He's not trying to prove anything because there's no proof needed. He's just relating his experiences on the subject and initiating a discussion.

Also, discussion forms are places for opinions and anecdotal evidence, not conclusive scientific proof. If there was conclusive scientific proof, there would be no discussion. It's like having a discussion about the existence of gravity. Everyone agrees, let's move on. It's not a discussion. There has to be uncertainty in order for there to be a discussion, and so you have to allow arguments to be made that aren't conclusive, otherwise you have no discussion.

He sure seemed to be implying more than merely the existence of sexism. And in fact explicitly claimed more. Following up my reply to "While we're on this topic, why is it that any MALE claiming sexual harassment is pretty much told to man-up and quit being a fucking pussy?" with "It's a prevalent mentality shared by a vast majority of the male and female genders, a number of whom have already exhibited, in my presence, their distaste for gender inequality." is saying more than "Sexism exists towards both males and females"

Here's the thing I don't get. I hear a lot that men get paid more that women...in what jobs? Where the hell do these women work? You see as far as every job I have ever had goes you get your ass paid an fixed rate per hour, gender does't come into it.

Mallefunction:

Matthew94:

For.I.Am.Mad:
Yeah, well call it reparations for women being treated like animals for....thousands of years. I'm sorry worse than animals. I'm pretty sure the family dog was treated better than the wife, in some cases.

I see this "argument" frequently and it's total bullshit.

You weren't around thousands of years ago, you didn't suffer that kind of discrimination so you have no right to take "reparations" or whatever name you like to call it.

Also it's horrifying to think you think it is ok for a woman to make a false claim and destroy a man's life because her ancestors hundreds of years ago were discriminated, I find that repulsive.

Even in the past woman had advantages over men, they never had to go and fight for some king who made them die for a piece of land, no they stayed at home and life went all. Do men ask for reparations for being forced to fight for all those years? No.

Oh you poor POOR babies. You know what you just said is exactly like a white person saying to a black person that they have NO RIGHT to be angry over that whole "slavery" thing because they were given a homes by their poor white masters who had worked hard to earn that land in the first place.

The male gaze, it shows SO bad here.

Well no they don't, If a back person said that then i would have no problem saying them telling them to grow the fuck up and stop being so childish. And this is coming from someone who had ancestors that were kidnapped into slavery and sent halfway round the world. There come a point when we have to stop that kind of thinking. We should learn from the past, not live in it.

Edit

Apologies for the double post, my internetz is being a pig at the moment.

Crazycat690:

Phasmal:

Darius Brogan:
Snip.

UUUUUUUGGHHHHHHHH

Apparently this needs saying, because we are all five. There are terrible PEOPLE. Some PEOPLE are terrible. Yes?

It is very hard for legitimate victims of sexual assault/harrassment at work to get recognised, and stupid statements like `Women expect X` dont HELP anyone.
Women are not one being.
Women are not all out for money at work.
Some PEOPLE are out for money at work.
And terrible WOMEN are not TERRIBLE BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN.
Yes, it sucks that she was believed, I'm really suprised the dude couldn't appeal.

Being a woman on this forum is getting fucking tiring.

Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

This needs to be brought to attention, not that women are terrible, women are great! I'm sure you are great, but the problem is that you could probably say I'm harrassing you ONLY for saying that. That is what needs to be discussed, wether you find it tiring or not. If women seek equality they also need to do something about these screwed up social rules.

In short, it's not about insulting women, it's about wanting actual equality instead of treating one gender as overlords.

Heres the thing, Bro.
The whole `ruining your life` thing is hardly true, have you even seen rape conviction statistics??? Trust me, even the guilty ones are home free at the moment.

Yeah, it might be frightening to be accused, but its frightening to have to obey all the `rules` not to get raped (Dont go out at dark, dont drink, dont wear short clothes).

I couldn't `just say`, because most people demand evidence, but there we go. Obviously there are cases that fall between the cracks which should be addressed.
People telling me I `seek` equality annoy me, because it implies I'm not already equal to them. (I'm sure this was not what you meant, its just a word arrangement that annoys me).

The tiring bit is that the attitude that women are overlords is just wrong, and its kind of prevalent on here, which just gets on my nerves.

BloatedGuppy:

Crazycat690:
Well here's the thing missy, it's also tiring to see men constantly get rolled over by women purely because they are women and have social rights that men don't and then see women say they want more rights because they're the underdog. Do you realize how frightening it actually can be for men to go out in a world where a woman can ruin you merely by shouting "rape!"?

Did you actually just call someone "missy"? For reals?

It's really frightening to live in a world where you can have your reputation dragged through the mud by the simple accusation of sexual misconduct, long before your guilt or innocence is ever established.

By the same token, I imagine it's even more frightening to live in world where you're constantly at risk of being the victim of sexual misconduct, and you'll get YOUR reputation dragged through the mud if you try to report it after it happens.

Both men and women would be well served to stop talking past one another on the issue of sexism and recognize that there are justifiable causes for concern on both sides of the ledger. And really, this forum is male dominated, and on more than one occasion has proven to be a festering pit of barely constrained misogyny, so I don't blame the resident female posters for being a little sensitive.

Yay. Someone who gets it.
... I think I love you.
(And yeah, whats up with missy??? I'm not a child).

Phasmal:

Heres the thing, Bro.
The whole `ruining your life` thing is hardly true, have you even seen rape conviction statistics??? Trust me, even the guilty ones are home free at the moment.

He's not talking about conviction rates.

If anyone so much as hints that you raped someone, there is a permanent black-mark on your record that will NEVER go away.

Yeah, it's scary that you could be the subject of sexual harassment, but BOTH genders can be the subject of sexual harassment, and rape that is woman vs man is rarely taken seriously.

For example: A Russian hairdresser had a man try to rob her, she knocked him out, tied him to a radiator, fed him Viagra, and raped him for three days.

She's also got a rather extensive Facebook following APPLAUDING HER for turning a man into her sex slave.

That would NEVER, EVER, EVER happen if a man did it to a woman. EVER.

Darius Brogan:

Phasmal:

Heres the thing, Bro.
The whole `ruining your life` thing is hardly true, have you even seen rape conviction statistics??? Trust me, even the guilty ones are home free at the moment.

He's not talking about conviction rates.

If anyone so much as hints that you raped someone, there is a permanent black-mark on your record that will NEVER go away.

Yeah, it's scary that you could be the subject of sexual harassment, but BOTH genders can be the subject of sexual harassment, and rape that is woman vs man is rarely taken seriously.

For example: A Russian hairdresser had a man try to rob her, she knocked him out, tied him to a radiator, fed him Viagra, and raped him for three days.

She's also got a rather extensive Facebook following APPLAUDING HER for turning a man into her sex slave.

That would NEVER, EVER, EVER happen if a man did it to a woman. EVER.

The people who were apparently applauding this were a bunch of fucking nuts. And this is the internet, I'm sure you wouldn't be hard pressed to find a bunch of other fucking nuts who would applaud the rape or sexual abuse of a woman.

But yes, I do agree that female on male rape is taken much less seriously than male on female rape. For one it definitely is a less common action, for two it goes back to societies' view that women are helpless and weak. How could a weak helpless woman rape a man? He must've been even weaker, which is cause for ridicule. This is definitely a problem.

But do you honestly think that those actions in any way equal the male-on-female sexual assaults in the world in terms of numbers? Yes everyone has the potential to be a victim of sexual assault. It's just a lot more likely in this world that it's going to be a woman.

Darius Brogan:

Snip.

EDIT: Had links but removed. I dont feel comfortable bringing specific indcidents into this.
But trust me, loads of guys who have actually DONE it, are getting on with THEIR lives just fine.

One in four women have suffered rape or attempted rape.
Are that many men blacklisted for life?
Cause I'm really not seeing it.

Anyone who congratulates someone for sexual assault is disgusting, no matter what gender the parties involve. (But I doubt that that wouldnt happen, havent you seen all the nasty shit on facebook? Groups about rape and smacking women are not uncommon).

Heh, so the word reparations gets your neo-nazi sense tingling. You know I said it in jest. The reparations part not the women treated like dogs part. They really were.

Phasmal:

Darius Brogan:

Snip.

There, I removed them as well.

One in four women have suffered rape or attempted rape.
Are that many men blacklisted for life?
Cause I'm really not seeing it.

Anyone who congratulates someone for sexual assault is disgusting, no matter what gender the parties involve. (But I doubt that that wouldnt happen, havent you seen all the nasty shit on facebook? Groups about rape and smacking women are not uncommon).

Funny thing is: My point still stands.

The first article, he was convicted of assault, but he doesn't have a cult following BECAUSE HE RAPED HER. He's popular because he's a basketball star. I challenge you to check on his future successes with the female crowd.

The second article focuses exclusively on the churches opinions, which I couldn't care less about anyways.

Once again: Find me a male rapist who has a following of men and women applauding his actions as a rapist.

I'm not trying to belittle women or their problems with rape and/or sexual assault, but you ARE almost completely ignoring anything that could possibly happen to a man, in favor of 'it happens more often to women'.

Here's the thing: Men report their abuse less than a third as often as women, because it's embarrassing.

For.I.Am.Mad:
Heh, so the word reparations gets your neo-nazi sense tingling. You know I said it in jest. The reparations part not the women treated like dogs part. They really were.

No, they were not.

Women were treated as second-class citizens, not animals. Any common history book will tell you that.

Aside from the fact that, throughout almost all of history, women of various cultures have held positions of extreme power.

Queens, Empresses, Etc... So that kinda destroys your foundations. Hell, Cleopatra was long lauded as the single most powerful and beautiful woman in history.

See, historically speaking, people were subjugated by those in power, and treated as animals.

Darius Brogan:
-snip-

The only difference between me and a feminist is that I believe that the "Feminist" moniker is unneeded. It all should come under the banner of equality, which, in my opinion, is a far more powerful and unifying name. I stand for the rights and status of women in our society in the name of equality. The same way I do with LGBT people, disabled people, and and all ethnic minorities, all faiths. We all don't need these individual logo's and names, we should all come together and fight against the injustices that bother us all.

Phasmal:

Yeah, it might be frightening to be accused, but its frightening to have to obey all the `rules` not to get raped (Dont go out at dark, dont drink, dont wear short clothes).

Find me a single woman who follows these rules as I know of none.

Darius Brogan:

Funny thing is: My point still stands.

The first article, he was convicted of assault, but he doesn't have a cult following BECAUSE HE RAPED HER. He's popular because he's a basketball star. I challenge you to check on his future successes with the female crowd.

The second article focuses exclusively on the churches opinions, which I couldn't care less about anyways.

Once again: Find me a male rapist who has a following of men and women applauding his actions as a rapist.

I'm not trying to belittle women or their problems with rape and/or sexual assault, but you ARE almost completely ignoring anything that could possibly happen to a man, in favor of 'it happens more often to women'.

Here's the thing: Men report their abuse less than a third as often as women, because it's embarrassing.

I'm not ignoring your points, I just think we're talking past each other at the moment.
It does happen more often to women, but that doesn't make it any less horrible when it happens to a man. I would encourage any man who I even suspected was being abused to seek help. Unfortunately, some attitudes like `its not manly`, are blocking people from coming forward.

I have absolutely no desire to go looking for rapists for you, and I dont want to make myself sick looking for people willing to CONGRATULATE them.
My original point is that the `black mark forever` theory doesn't stand.

This thread is totally derailing and just turning into what all these threads turn into.

Matthew94:

Phasmal:

Yeah, it might be frightening to be accused, but its frightening to have to obey all the `rules` not to get raped (Dont go out at dark, dont drink, dont wear short clothes).

Find me a single woman who follows these rules as I know of none.

Hmmmm... me. That wasn't hard.

Damn those non following women!
Not all women follow all `rules`, but I promise you every woman you know has to deal with the fear of rapists, and should they NOT follow the `rules`, the slut-shaming begins. She was asking for it, wearing a short skirt/walking alone/ being a woman. :P
Btw I put `rules` like that because they are Bullshit.

I'm pretty much retiring from this thread. Going to be busy with work and family matters this week. I'm sure you can get the gist of it though. I would say please dont quote me but someone will.

Phasmal:

I'm not ignoring your points, I just think we're talking past each other at the moment.
It does happen more often to women, but that doesn't make it any less horrible when it happens to a man. I would encourage any man who I even suspected was being abused to seek help. Unfortunately, some attitudes like `its not manly`, are blocking people from coming forward.

I have absolutely no desire to go looking for rapists for you, and I dont want to make myself sick looking for people willing to CONGRATULATE them.
My original point is that the `black mark forever` theory doesn't stand.

This thread is totally derailing and just turning into what all these threads turn into.

Matthew94:

Phasmal:

Yeah, it might be frightening to be accused, but its frightening to have to obey all the `rules` not to get raped (Dont go out at dark, dont drink, dont wear short clothes).

Find me a single woman who follows these rules as I know of none.

Hmmmm... me. That wasn't hard.

Damn those non following women!
Not all women follow all rules, but I promise you every woman you know has to deal with the fear of rapists, and should they NOT follow the `rules`, the slut-shaming begins. She was asking for it, wearing a short skirt/walking alone/ being a woman. :P

Well, if you're not ignoring them, you sure seem to be glazing over them.

Men and women are, believe it or not, almost equal in terms of sexual assault/rape by either gender, and favoring one over the other isn't helping.

You seem to be pulling the same stunt you claimed I did earlier, as well.

the slut-shaming begins. She was asking for it, wearing a short skirt/walking alone/ being a woman.

I know damn well that happens (with the exception of 'being a woman'. I've never in my life, EVER heard of that being used as an excuse for ANYTHING), in fact, an example pops into my head almost immediately, but you completely ignored the fact that men are just as easily destroyed by false accusations as women.

Also: Those 'rules' are complete crap. Rapists NEVER rape women because they were out late, wearing skirts, or anything of the like, there is ALWAYS a mental motivation for it.

Darius Brogan:
An I would like to know why it is that any female claiming sexual harassment gets the IMMEDIATE AND UNQUESTIONABLE benefit of the doubt, simply for being female.
She had no argument for sexual harassment outside his one, accidental, encounter, yet she managed to take him for everything we was worth, ruin his entire life, and feel self-righteously justified about it at the same time... It doesn't make sense.

Why?

Seriously?

Oh, I dunno, for the hundreds of years that women could only work (if at all) in subservient positions, and were treated by their exclusively male bosses/lords/owners/etc as pieces of meat?

Maybe because of that?

Now, I am sorry for your friend, I really am; but the fact of the matter is that for 99% of history, ALL benefit of the doubt went to then men. You could sleep with your maids, secretaries, servants etc to your heart's content, but if she got pregnant, HER life was ruint. As in, she was marked as a slut, could never marry, and probably had to turn to prostitution. Oh, and to this day, women get harrassed sexually way more than men in the workplace, get paid less, and hold far less leadership positions.

So yeah, some women are bitches, and some are hysterical about this. But for a man to whinge about sexism when rampant sexism towards women was the standard until VERY recently is just risible.

It's EXACTLY the same reason why black people get to call whites names, but not the other way around.

Archangel357:

Darius Brogan:
An I would like to know why it is that any female claiming sexual harassment gets the IMMEDIATE AND UNQUESTIONABLE benefit of the doubt, simply for being female.
She had no argument for sexual harassment outside his one, accidental, encounter, yet she managed to take him for everything we was worth, ruin his entire life, and feel self-righteously justified about it at the same time... It doesn't make sense.

Why?

Seriously?

Oh, I dunno, for the hundreds of years that women could only work (if at all) in subservient positions, and were treated by their exclusively male bosses/lords/owners/etc as pieces of meat?

Maybe because of that?

Now, I am sorry for your friend, I really am; but the fact of the matter is that for 99% of history, ALL benefit of the doubt went to then men. You could sleep with your maids, secretaries, servants etc to your heart's content, but if she got pregnant, HER life was ruint. As in, she was marked as a slut, could never marry, and probably had to turn to prostitution. Oh, and to this day, women get harrassed sexually way more than men in the workplace, get paid less, and hold far less leadership positions.

So yeah, some women are bitches, and some are hysterical about this. But for a man to whinge about sexism when rampant sexism towards women was the standard until VERY recently is just risible.

It's EXACTLY the same reason why black people get to call whites names, but not the other way around.

I've already addressed a comment similar to this one. Go back and find it. I'm not going to bother re-writing the whole thing again.

Suffice it to say that your whole comment comes out to 'bullshit'.

Nobody, but NOBODY deserves special treatment for something that happened to someone else hundreds or thousands of years ago. EVER.

If a Black man ridicules me, I ridicule him right back.
If a woman calls me a pig, I cal her a fucking bitch.

You want equality. You GET equality. No exceptions.

Darius Brogan:

Queens, Empresses, Etc... So that kinda destroys your foundations. Hell, Cleopatra was long lauded as the single most powerful and beautiful woman in history.

For every empress (I can think of only four: Cixi, Longju, Maria Theresa and Catherine the Great), there were 100 emperors. For every queen, there were 100 kings. So what you are saying is that the exceptions that prove the rule... disprove the rule? Really?
Oh, and Cleopatra was a puppet queen of a Roman fucking COLONY, meaning that she had about as much real power as the head of state of Guam. Your grasp of history fails hilariously.

Question for the OP: Did you, or were you able to, give testimony on the man's behalf? Because it may have made a difference to a sane jury.
And yes, she sounds like a litigious bitch, as so many men and women are.

Darius Brogan:
I've already addressed a comment similar to this one. Go back and find it. I'm not going to bother re-writing the whole thing again.

Suffice it to say that your whole comment comes out to 'bullshit'.

Nobody, but NOBODY deserves special treatment for something that happened to someone else hundreds or thousands of years ago. EVER.

If a Black man ridicules me, I ridicule him right back.
If a woman calls me a pig, I cal her a fucking bitch.

You want equality. You GET equality. No exceptions.

You do know that women were only granted equal pay for equal work a few decades ago, right?

Also, wrong. Ignorant. Baseline republican in its benightedness. If one group oppressed another for centuries, then it cannot simply declare "we're equal now" and say that that's it. Why? Because one of the groups starts from a disadvantaged position. Way over 80% of top politicians and executives in the US are men. Does that sound like "equality" to you? One group was able to hand down businesses to male heirs for centuries. Men had men succeed them in positions of power. One gender owned EVERYTHING until VERY recently.
Basically, it's like a millionaire heir and a trailer park dweller graduating high school with the same grades, and the former saying that all things were equal.

No it isn't.

Actual equality between the sexes, especially in America, is decades away. And people like you will only prolong that period.

Archangel357:

Darius Brogan:

Queens, Empresses, Etc... So that kinda destroys your foundations. Hell, Cleopatra was long lauded as the single most powerful and beautiful woman in history.

For every empress (I can think of only four: Cixi, Longju, Maria Theresa and Catherine the Great), there were 100 emperors. For every queen, there were 100 kings. So what you are saying is that the exceptions that prove the rule... disprove the rule? Really?
Oh, and Cleopatra was a puppet queen of a Roman fucking COLONY, meaning that she had about as much real power as the head of state of Guam. Your grasp of history fails hilariously.

You realize, don't you, that the simple fact that there were any women ANYWHERE allowed to take positions of power destroyed your argument? Queens, Empresses, Duchesses, Ladies, Baronesses, and the list goes on.

Find some statistics supporting your '1/100' and I'll believe you.

Also: Really? You're poking fun at my knowledge of history? Cleopatra was allowed to take power in the first place.

The Queen of England is nothing but a figurehead, and you're still liable for a $14,000 fine if you STARTLE HER.

No power? Totally.

Archangel357:

Darius Brogan:
I've already addressed a comment similar to this one. Go back and find it. I'm not going to bother re-writing the whole thing again.

Suffice it to say that your whole comment comes out to 'bullshit'.

Nobody, but NOBODY deserves special treatment for something that happened to someone else hundreds or thousands of years ago. EVER.

If a Black man ridicules me, I ridicule him right back.
If a woman calls me a pig, I cal her a fucking bitch.

You want equality. You GET equality. No exceptions.

You do know that women were only granted equal pay for equal work a few decades ago, right?

Also, wrong. Ignorant. Baseline republican in its benightedness. If one group oppressed another for centuries, then it cannot simply declare "we're equal now" and say that that's it. Why? Because one of the groups starts from a disadvantaged position. Way over 80% of top politicians and executives in the US are men. Does that sound like "equality" to you? One group was able to hand down businesses to male heirs for centuries. Men had men succeed them in positions of power. One gender owned EVERYTHING until VERY recently.
Basically, it's like a millionaire heir and a trailer park dweller graduating high school with the same grades, and the former saying that all things were equal.

No it isn't.

Actual equality between the sexes, especially in America, is decades away. And people like you will only prolong that period.

You have no idea what you're talking about do you?
a) How am I wrong?
b) How is it ignorant?
c) I'm not American, therefore your equating me to a republican is meaningless.
d) People like YOU, who feel that, because a group was slighted decades ago, it somehow has the magical right to do the SAME THING to the group that slighted them are making damn sure there will never be equality in this world.

I'm done with you. You're pinning ignorance on me that doesn't exist. If you want to be treated equally I will treat you equally. There is not, and never will be an exception to that rule.

ensouls:
Question for the OP: Did you, or were you able to, give testimony on the man's behalf? Because it may have made a difference to a sane jury.
And yes, she sounds like a litigious bitch, as so many men and women are.

Yes, I was able to testify on his behalf, as I was present when 'all hell broke loose' as it were.

It didn't do much, unfortunately. The deliberations ended on the opinion that 'He took advantage of the crowd density in an attempt sexually harass her without notice'

It's been a couple years, so I could be paraphrasing, but it means the same thing.

DevilWithaHalo:
I'm somewhat skeptical regarding your anecdotal story. Even in a country with outlandishly frivolous lawsuits, that one sounds a bit far fetched. Especially considering a group of witnesses who could have testified on his behalf. Something seems amiss.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the various double standards the genders have to face in various facets of their lives. But I'd like to know more about your friends situation.

Memory is fallible. Its been proved on several occasions in controlled lab tests that how people react to a situation often dictates how its remember by those who experienced it. Is she freaked out claiming he grabbed her ass and she did it loudly, shouting over his protest all anyone will remember is that he grabbed her ass and she was extremely offended regardless of what actually happened. This is in addition to personality biased memory bias and social conditioning.

Not saying the story is true, simply stating that in something like this witnesses are unreliable at best.

OT: It is actually becoming an endemic problem that is slowly getting more and more recognition. The idea that sexism goes both way. The fact that religious and racial discrimination goes both ways are still largely ignored because to say anything at all on that subject it basically a licence to be slated and become the target for abuse nationally.

It stems from the idea that it is...Or was is probably more accurate for most things now with a few notable exceptions (front line soldiers), a mans world. We got so engrossed and still are, in defending the rights of the once oppressed we largely fail to realise that sometimes in close spaces brushing past someone is just that. Or that an unfortunate combination of movements from both parties can end with hands in unfortunate places. It happens, but atm in the legal system taking offence is the only real category required to make a claim and its very VERY hard to prove in a situation like this that you had no intent not in the least because "my hand just happened to end up there" sounds dodge even if its the truth.

Phasmal:
Apparently this needs saying, because we are all five. There are terrible PEOPLE. Some PEOPLE are terrible. Yes?

It is very hard for legitimate victims of sexual assault/harrassment at work to get recognised, and stupid statements like `Women expect X` dont HELP anyone.
Women are not one being.
Women are not all out for money at work.
Some PEOPLE are out for money at work.
And terrible WOMEN are not TERRIBLE BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN.
Yes, it sucks that she was believed, I'm really suprised the dude couldn't appeal.

Being a woman on this forum is getting fucking tiring.

I don't think he was saying "hurr durr women are horrible", I'm pretty sure he was saying "society is skewed in the favour of women's right above men's". I didn't really see a "WOMEN ARE EVIL" sentiment to his story.

On topic, reminds me of the time I opened a door for a woman only to get blasted in the face with some speech about how she could have done it by herself, and me assuming she needed the door open for her was sexist. Didn't dull my opinion of women, just led me to the conclusion that radical feminists are called "radical" for a reason.

Reason being that they're morons.

spartan231490:
In general, men are bigger, hardier, and stronger. That's a simple truth, and that is the reason that men are expected to react to violence differently, not because they have a penis.

I'm 5'7. I weigh about 120 pounds. I can assure you that I'm not "bigger, hardier and stronger". I did however go to school, and I had to fight quite a lot.

Do you think the girls who were physically bigger than me and could probably punch me to the ground if they wanted to ever had to fight? No, they didn't, not because I was "bigger, hardier and stronger", but because they were girls.

Violence by men against other men doesn't happen because they're bigger, it doesn't happen because they're stronger, it happens because they're men. As men, we consider it acceptable to hit other men, regardless of size and regardless of strength, because we assume that they can deal with it, that it doesn't really hurt them physically or emotionally. We don't consider it acceptable to hit women, regardless of size and regardless of strength because we assume it does hurt them, physically or emotionally.

Stop invalidating your own argument. If you genuinely believe (as I actually do if you'd bothered to listen) that violence against men is worthy of the same consideration as violence against women, then don't fall back on these ridiculous Mars and Venus arguments.

spartan231490:
As for who benefits, I don't really see that anyone does.

Really?

Let me repeat one of my axioms again. Despite very seldom being victims of violence, women fear violence hugely more than men. They feel powerless, they doubt that they would be able to defend themselves, and they also fear that being physically overpowered would open them to sexual violence.

Have you ever worried about any of those things? Have you ever worried that if someone started a fight with you and physically overpowered you they might sexually assault you?

Would you rather people looked at you and assumed that you could handle yourself (and thus felt that they could get in your face or even hit you because it wouldn't really affect you that much) or would you rather they assumed you were not worth fighting, that if anyone did want anything from you they could just beat you into submission without any difficulty.

It starts with you. If you won't even take violence against yourself seriously, then where is your case for it being equally severe?

spartan231490:
And I'm not the one who's saying that violence against men by women should be treated differently.

But most men, probably including you and I, treat it differently. That's what I'm saying. It's not a feminist conspiracy to seize control of the legal system, it's people like you and me who make this happen. It's our expectation of each other as men which means we don't take each other seriously.

You say you want it changed, I'm saying that change starts with you and me. Not with bad, evil women learning that they shouldn't slap their boyfriends, because that's a pretty insignificant minority of violence against men. The real violence against men, the enormous, enormous majority, involves men attacking other men in ways they would never think to attack women.

Don't punish women for following assumptions laid down to benefit men like you or me. That's bullshit.

evilthecat:

spartan231490:
In general, men are bigger, hardier, and stronger. That's a simple truth, and that is the reason that men are expected to react to violence differently, not because they have a penis.

I'm 5'7. I weigh about 120 pounds. I can assure you that I'm not "bigger, hardier and stronger". I did however go to school, and I had to fight quite a lot.

Do you think the girls who were physically bigger than me and could probably punch me to the ground if they wanted to ever had to fight? No, they didn't, not because I was "bigger, hardier and stronger", but because they were girls.

Violence by men against other men doesn't happen because they're bigger, it doesn't happen because they're stronger, it happens because they're men. As men, we consider it acceptable to hit other men, regardless of size and regardless of strength, because we assume that they can deal with it, that it doesn't really hurt them physically or emotionally. We don't consider it acceptable to hit women, regardless of size and regardless of strength because we assume it does hurt them, physically or emotionally.

Stop invalidating your own argument. If you genuinely believe (as I actually do if you'd bothered to listen) that violence against men is worthy of the same consideration as violence against women, then don't fall back on these ridiculous Mars and Venus arguments.

spartan231490:
As for who benefits, I don't really see that anyone does.

Really?

Let me repeat one of my axioms again. Despite very seldom being victims of violence, women fear violence hugely more than men. They feel powerless, they doubt that they would be able to defend themselves, and they also fear that being physically overpowered would open them to sexual violence.

Have you ever worried about any of those things? Have you ever worried that if someone started a fight with you and physically overpowered you they might sexually assault you?

Would you rather people looked at you and assumed that you could handle yourself (and thus felt that they could get in your face or even hit you because it wouldn't really affect you that much) or would you rather they assumed you were not worth fighting, that if anyone did want anything from you they could just beat you into submission without any difficulty.

It starts with you. If you won't even take violence against yourself seriously, then where is your case for it being equally severe?

spartan231490:
And I'm not the one who's saying that violence against men by women should be treated differently.

But most men, probably including you and I, treat it differently. That's what I'm saying. It's not a feminist conspiracy to seize control of the legal system, it's people like you and me who make this happen. It's our expectation of each other as men which means we don't take each other seriously.

You say you want it changed, I'm saying that change starts with you and me. Not with bad, evil women learning that they shouldn't slap their boyfriends, because that's a pretty insignificant minority of violence against men. The real violence against men, the enormous, enormous majority, involves men attacking other men in ways they would never think to attack women.

Don't punish women for following assumptions laid down to benefit men like you or me. That's bullshit.

Men are in general bigger, tougher, and stronger. Fact. I expressed the opinion, that this is probably the reason that this particular gender bias ocurred. I didn't say it was the reason it's still around. I didn't say that it makes any difference in individual cases. Stop putting words in my mouth, or I'm just going to ignore you and wash my hands of this whole thread. Also, your assumption that a woman couldn't beat you in a fight(I think that's what you said, the first paragraph makes no sense grammatically, I can't be sure what it says) just because she's a woman, is dramatically false. If you're saying she wouldn't, that's a cultural thing, it doesn't have anything to do with anything innately "woman"

Again, putting words in my mouth. I never said that men hit other men because they're bigger than women. I said that the gender bias about fighting, in my opinion, originated from the physical difference between men and women, I.E. men are usually bigger, tougher, and stronger. That is the likely reason that violence against men became more acceptable. You can say that you're smaller than women all you want, it doesn't affect the norm. You can call it a men from mars/ women from venus argument, but it's not, it's a demonstrable scientific fact. And I am professing the belief that this gender bias originated from that fact.

No, I never worried about being physically overpowered and sexually assaulted. I never worried about being physically overpowered, but even if I did, I wouldn't worry about being sexually assaulted. What's your point? Again, you are confusing a cultural construct for reality. Women are perfectly capable of defending themselves if they are trained, and likely unable if not, but that's also true for men. But again, what's your point? What bearing does this have on the existence of this gender bias?

Also, I would very much like to see some proof behind your assertion that women are the target of violence less than men. Particularly from a study that didn't consider gang violence, because generally predators(talking about human criminals here) go after those they believe to be weak. Women being very high on that list. That's why managers fear that stores are robbed less often with a single male employee on staff than if there is a single female employee on staff. That's why convenience stores will try to schedule men for the closing shifts, even if they won't say that's the reason.

Again, I never said that. I never once said I didn't take violence against myself seriously. I do, but only if it's serious violence. I mean really, did you even read my post?

To summarize, stop putting words in my mouth, and violence should be examined by how severe the violent act is, not by who the victim is.

Simple fact is, regrettably simple. There is no true equality. We've come far, very far, though men and women still aren't on the same playing field.

Much like how women will more often then not get the child in custody, people are more predisposed to giving the woman, the "fairer sex", the "weaker sex", the yin (or is it yang?), the benefit of the doubt, or their unjustified automatic belief.

Not to say that all women are given this, just in a lot of scenarios.
Men are in turn, given more power in terms of position, status, money, and the ability to date many women without being called a slut, the way a woman would (although with the younger generations of today, that's starting to fade).

Things may stay this way for a wile, since progression these days, in this particular field, is very slow now.

Nexxis:

OtherSideofSky:

For.I.Am.Mad:
Yeah, well call it reparations for women being treated like animals for....thousands of years. I'm sorry worse than animals. I'm pretty sure the family dog was treated better than the wife, in some cases.

This. Did. Not. Happen.
Your statement betrays an utter ignorance of historical reality. The actual, incredibly varied, circumstances of people throughout history do not line up with the myth, created in the 1960s by sociologists masquerading as historians and anthropologists in order to make themselves look especially glorious, that you are repeating as fact in order to attempt the justification of systematic discrimination. Ancient cultures afforded women rights far in excess of the slavery you imagine (owning property, running businesses, in some cases occupying positions of political and religious authority) and rape and domestic violence have been serious crimes in Western societies for hundreds of years (we're just now fighting to get men the same legal protection). Roman women even had the option of a quite effective morning after pill. The condition you refer to as oppression was actually the result of a very, very important social structure designed to keep women out of harms way. This was important because women are the limiting factor on the growth of any human population and any society that did not do this was therefore destined not to be around much longer. These systems were generally as limiting and repressive for men as they were for women and represented interlocking sets of privileges and disadvantages (remember, most of that socially visible work men had to do was work that was likely to get you killed), not a system of oppression like that which existed, and in many ways still exists, based on socioeconomic class.

We, as a society, like to imagine ourselves better than our forebears and one of the ways we judge the value of a society is the way it treats women (just look at the things we say about anyone we go to war with. Its been a tried and true tactic for playing up the immorality of an enemy for centuries. This kind of propaganda is where the idea of the entirely chimerical medieval laws which supposedly allowed feudal lords to freely rape peasant women came from). As a result, many among us have a distinct tendency to greatly exaggerate the historical mistreatment of women, sometimes by repeating inaccurate data, sometimes by inventing out of whole cloth as you have done (the "family dog" as more than a beast of utility is a relatively recent invention. There were few pets, as we would understand the term, in the ancient world) or by stating the conditions endured by women while omitting those suffered by the men of their class (you know they're selling something when they want you to compare a peasant woman to a king and call it a fair measure of gender discrimination).

Do you have some online sources for this information or some terms I should use in a google search to be able to get to it?

No. Unfortunately you, like the rest of us, will have to study history the hard way. I assure you that if there were a quick Google link I would not have taken out nearly as many loans in order to formally study history. A Google search should certainly provide you with confirmation on the specific details I mentioned (I think two of them have even been featured on Cracked, although Cracked provides no citations and is therefore a poor source. Certainly, you'll be able to find court records of laws against rape and "wife beating" so strong they were routinely exploited by professional con-artists for the past 200 years in the English speaking world. Said crimes were also often punished by lynch mobs). Beyond that? Study anthropology, read primary sources (nothing will tell you more about the rights of people in the past than reading their legal codes).

One point you may find interesting are the differences between hunter-gatherers and agricultural society (gender roles in hunter-gatherer societies are now thought to be much less divergent and far less rigid. Many of the divisions that affect us to this day came with the advent of settled agriculture). You may also want to note the fact that men do not display anything remotely close to the level of in-group bias that women do (i.e., women identify with, side with and seek to protect and benefit other women to a degree far greater than that to which men relate to and identify with other men). This means that men occupying positions of power does not benefit other men in the way patriarchy theory commonly supposes it to (no one ever thought to make any scientific attempt at testing that particular theory before hailing it as fact) because men in power do not act in the interests of or sympathize with men in general. As such, the only women definitely disadvantaged by most positions of power being held by men were the women at the top of the social pyramid who might otherwise have occupied those positions.

Darius Brogan:
Equality is something everybody should strive for, and if more people did, perhaps the Radical Feminist movement wouldn't have gotten so large so fast.

Technically, Radical Feminists are the ones who believe that sexism is so entrenched in society that a major restructuring is needed to get rid of it, not scary straw feminists.

Darius Brogan:
How is it worse for women?

When a woman becomes strong and independent, she's risen above her stigma of weakness, and she can take pride in that face, even though many sexist pricks will still think little of her.

If a man DOESN'T become strong, independent, manly, macho, or whatever, he's viewed as a weakling, a pansy, gay, or any number of retarded little groups and epithets pinned on a man not acting the way a man should.

You are saying (quite truthfully) that a "failed" man is equated to being a woman. Ok, maybe a woman who becomes too strong and independant to ignore might get honourary male status and
not be labelled an bitch for challenging the genders roles, but if so, that grudging respect is only given by a select few people. To the man on the street, she's just a woman, just a failed man.

Darius Brogan:
Men and women are, believe it or not, almost equal in terms of sexual assault/rape by either gender, and favoring one over the other isn't helping.

That's simply not true. Men are overwhelmingly (but not exclusively) the perpetrators, women are overwhelming (but not exclusively) the victims.

Darius Brogan:
but you completely ignored the fact that men are just as easily destroyed by false accusations as women.

Assuming that a false accusation is going to ruin someone's life (which is quite possible, but hardly inevitable), the false accusation rate is about the same for rape as it is for anything else, which makes it far, far less common than actual rapes that don't make it to court.

Darius Brogan:
Also: Those 'rules' are complete crap. Rapists NEVER rape women because they were out late, wearing skirts, or anything of the like, there is ALWAYS a mental motivation for it.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Hell, 90%+ of rapes are committed by teh victim's close friends or family. But society tends to overlook that, if the victim could have prevented it, but didn't, if it's their fault, it means it can't happen to Good People. It's a disgusting example of the Just World Fallacy.

BloatedGuppy:

Exactly.

thaluikhain:
snip

I don't do individual quotes, 'cuz I hate giant walls-o-text, but here goes.

1) Most (not all) Radical Feminists are out and out 'man-haters' who will do anything they can to insult, degrade, or otherwise belittle men, out of some deep-seated need to 'pay us back' for centuries of subjugation, despite much of that not actually happening.

2) Basically, yeah, it's dually sexist with insulting implications for both genders.
A man's not strong enough? Equate him with a woman.
Stupid outlook, because I know a number of women that could turn me inside out. One of whom is a three time national Tae Kwon Do champion in the States, and happens to be my aunt.

3) That's not true either. Women report their abuse almost three times more often than men do, because a man reporting abuse of pretty much any variety is un-manly, and it's embarrassing. There is man vs women, man vs man, woman vs man, and woman vs woman. Statistically speaking, women perpetrate assault almost as often as men do.

4) I understand your point here, but I was trying to point out that women who are destroyed by an accusation being taken as false, are really just as common as men who are destroyed by a false accusation taken as true.
I've seen both happen and, quite frankly, both problems need to be solved somehow.

5) Society is completely fucked up. Lets just get that out there.
There was a man in Australia acquitted of rape because a judge thought the woman's skinny jeans would be 'too difficult to remove without her permission'... Fucked up.
Rape is the absolute worst thing you can do to a human, male or female, because you destroy them emotionally, but they're alive to re-live the event over and over.

You can recover from rape somewhat, but I guarantee you, you will never, ever be the same again.

Darius Brogan:
1) Most (not all) Radical Feminists are out and out 'man-haters' who will do anything they can to insult, degrade, or otherwise belittle men, out of some deep-seated need to 'pay us back' for centuries of subjugation, despite much of that not actually happening.

This isn't at all true. You'll find an overwhelming hatred of male culture, perhaps, but not so much at men in general.

Darius Brogan:
2) Basically, yeah, it's dually sexist with insulting implications for both genders.
A man's not strong enough? Equate him with a woman.
Stupid outlook, because I know a number of women that could turn me inside out. One of whom is a three time national Tae Kwon Do champion in the States, and happens to be my aunt.

Oh, I agree with that, it's something everyone should be trying to get rid of, it's in nobody's interest. But bad for all does not equate to as bad for all.

Darius Brogan:
3) That's not true either. Women report their abuse almost three times more often than men do, because a man reporting abuse of pretty much any variety is un-manly, and it's embarrassing. There is man vs women, man vs man, woman vs man, and woman vs woman. Statistically speaking, women perpetrate assault almost as often as men do.

I'm not saying that all sexual assault is male against women, just that the mjaority is. If is was simply a question of men not wanting to admit to being sexually assaulted by women, why are there much more male on male than female on female cases reported?

Darius Brogan:
4) I understand your point here, but I was trying to point out that women who are destroyed by an accusation being taken as false, are really just as common as men who are destroyed by a false accusation taken as true.
I've seen both happen and, quite frankly, both problems need to be solved somehow.

Again, they are both problems that need to be eliminated, but the rates of false rape convictions are nowhere near the number of actual rapes.

You are drawing false equivalencies again. Just because it's a smaller issue doesn't mean that the issue doesn't matter, but it's commonly blown out of proportion to somehow invalidate the shocking actual statistics regarding rape.

Darius Brogan:
5) Society is completely fucked up. Lets just get that out there.
There was a man in Australia acquitted of rape because a judge thought the woman's skinny jeans would be 'too difficult to remove without her permission'... Fucked up.
Rape is the absolute worst thing you can do to a human, male or female, because you destroy them emotionally, but they're alive to re-live the event over and over.

No argument there.

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