weird question regarding furries and transgender people

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After a very weird conversation with my friend, where I told my friend that it's polite to refer transgender people as their "new gender" (post op or otherwise) he gave a really weird argument. He asked if we should refer to furries as animals, since they also may think that "they were born as an animal". I know its a bit silly conversation but I wasn't able to make a solid argument against it.

So what do you think Escapist? Am I just retarded, or is it my friend?

Captcha: Save yourself... Is escapist trying to tell me that this thread is a really bad idea or something?

Referring to furries as animals seems a little silly. You can call a flower a person but it doesn't make it any less of a flower.

OT: How can someone believe they were born as an animal? I don't see how that works.

EDIT: I removed a bit referencing the part of the OP I misread.

I'd say the difference is that it's possible for someone to live as the opposite gender to which they were born as, if they so wish, while it's practically impossible for a furry who believes they are an animal to actually live as an animal. Wearing cat ears and a tail everywhere doesn't count. Heck, I guess if there really was a furry who gave up speech, wearing clothes and all other human activities, I would willingly call them an animal if they wanted me to.

Nah, bad idea. If you change your gender, you are still human.

If you change your species, well, you aren't a person anymore. Instead of the "which bathroom" arguments, should furries be kicked out altogether? Do they still get the right to vote? Is Danyal going to argue about their ability to consent?

Also, is it actually going to come up? We don't have species related pronouns, which is where gender usually crops up. It's a very serious issues for transgender people, though, you see it in court cases where the "trans panic" defence comes up.

Colour-Scientist:
I've never heard of someone using the term 'new gender' before.

What I meant by that is calling a man who went through surgery a woman and vice versa.

thaluikhain:

Also, is it actually going to come up? We don't have species related pronouns, which is where gender usually crops up. It's a very serious issues for transgender people, though, you see it in court cases where the "trans panic" defence comes up.

Thats the thing, It doesnt come up. Thats why I feel like the argument is pretty absurd.

A Weakgeek:

Colour-Scientist:
I've never heard of someone using the term 'new gender' before.

What I meant by that is calling a man who went through surgery a woman and vice versa.

I just read back over that now, no idea how I misread that the first time.

If they are post-op, then their sex organs are different so they should be referred to as whatever they are now.
A furry isn't actually an animal in the same way a man that has had a gender reassignment is now a woman.

Lol wut? Furry is way too broad of a term to lump people together like that; at the root it is simply an interest in anthropomorphism, whatever extensions people make to that definition is down to the individual. Some simply like to watch/draw anthropormphic art/characters/media, some like the conventions/sense of community, some are into the sexual aspect, some like to indulge in roleplay, some are into the whole fursuiting thing, and some are under the delusion that they are in fact animals trapped in the bodies of humans; though personally I find the ones who legitimately believe this to be pretty rare. Not all furries have the share the same perspective of just what qualifies as furry or not. It's a pretty stupid comparison, you should tell your friend to leave those poor straw men alone.

Well, it's possible for your brain chemistry/hormones to make you think/feel like a different gender then the one you were born as. It's not possible for your brain chemistry/hormones to make you feel like a sexy squirrel.

So...your friend is retarded.

Your DNA is human. You can't possibly be born meant to be an animal. Unless you've been seeing three-eyed crows.

subtlefuge:
Your DNA is human. You can't possibly be born meant to be an animal. Unless you've been seeing three-eyed crows.

...I know that you know this, but Humans are animals, because we aren't anything else, we are quite clearly animals in a biological sense.

Just in case I was wrong about you knowing about that.

Tree man:

subtlefuge:
Your DNA is human. You can't possibly be born meant to be an animal. Unless you've been seeing three-eyed crows.

...I know that you know this, but Humans are animals, because we aren't anything else, we are quite clearly animals in a biological sense.

Just in case I was wrong about you knowing about that.

The entire point of my post was to set up a A Song of Ice and Fire reference, but if it is better served that I validate Mr. 3rd Grade Life Science's pedantry, then so be it.

Thank you for correcting my mistake. I must have been asleep that day in General Biology.

subtlefuge:

Tree man:

subtlefuge:
Your DNA is human. You can't possibly be born meant to be an animal. Unless you've been seeing three-eyed crows.

...I know that you know this, but Humans are animals, because we aren't anything else, we are quite clearly animals in a biological sense.

Just in case I was wrong about you knowing about that.

The entire point of my post was to set up a A Song of Ice and Fire reference, but if it is better served that I validate Mr. 3rd Grade Life Science's pedantry, then so be it.

Thank you for correcting my mistake. I must have been asleep that day in General Biology.

...That was an unnecessarily nasty reply Mr. Insecure. Accusing me of being in 3rd Grade is rather strange considering that I am a teacher and was unaware of the intended set up and the source material it was quoted from.

And General biology, you must really have been the dunce of the class. ( If your mediocre mind cannot comprehend that last part it was an insult...actually most of this was an insult.)

A Weakgeek:
After a very weird conversation with my friend, where I told my friend that it's polite to refer transgender people as their "new gender" (post op or otherwise) he gave a really weird argument. He asked if we should refer to furries as animals, since they also may think that "they were born as an animal". I know its a bit silly conversation but I wasn't able to make a solid argument against it.

So what do you think Escapist? Am I just retarded, or is it my friend?

Captcha: Save yourself... Is escapist trying to tell me that this thread is a really bad idea or something?

That's just silly.
(Besides, I thought furries just `like` anthros, I thought the ones who think they ARE non-human were called something else, but I am drawing a blank).

But no, I dont think you come out human when you should have been an animal.
Besides, how on earth would you put something like that in practice?

subtlefuge:
A Song of Ice and Fire reference

Tree man:

subtlefuge:

Tree man:
Science clarification

Hey, it was a reference to A Song of Ice and Fire! [snide coment]

[snide comment]

Wow, Zero to flame in 13 posts. That lasted longer than I thought it would.

Seriously though guys, let's all calm down. We're all intelligent people here, there's no need to start insulting each other and making snide comments.[1] Let's all be civil people.

A Weakgeek:
-snip-

So what do you think Escapist? Am I just retarded, or is it my friend?

Neither, and please don't use that word as a pejoritive. While your friend is incorrect because of the whole "human" thing, s/he has a small point. A small point mind you, but a point nonetheless.

However, you should still refer to transgendered people as their prefered gender, be they pre or post op. It's just a matter of politness.

EDIT: I meant transexual, but one should in general use the pronouns a person would prefer. Just my thoughts.

[1] But I'm allowed to because I've got a smug sense of superiority, so there.

He was using a poor strawman argument. Being furry is not the same thing as being transgender. I can tell you that as both a furry and a transgender person. Both groups face misunderstanding, outright lies, bigotry and discrimination, but they are different things.

A transsexual person feels they should have been born as a different sex than they were assigned at birth. The medical establishment agrees that this is a valid issue. Both the medical establishment and common curtsey say that you should refer to someone using the gender titles that they prefer using. Whether or not you agree with their assessment, it is their choice as to how they live. If you deliberately misgender someone you are being extremely rude. Basically saying your opinions are more important than their opinions, their lives, the medical establishment and common courtesy.

Other kinds of transgender people, such as cross dressers, drag queens, androgynes may not care or prefer to use different pronouns than the ones they were assigned at birth. When in doubt, the polite thing to do is ask in a civilized manner.

People who identify as furry cover a large spectrum. Anywhere from liking anthropomorphic animal cartoons, like Bugs Bunny, to those who do feel they have an animal spirit in them or that feel they want to be part animal. Some of them do particularly identify with one kind of animal and make like being referred to as that in some cases. If so again, respect their feelings on the matter.

It's all about the golden rule. Treat others as you would wish to be treated. One person's opinions are not more important than any other person's opinions. If you don't agree with transgender people... fine. But at least have the bare minimum courtesy not to go out of your way to insult them by engendering them. Using the gender they prefer doesn't harm you in the least, but misgendering them DOES harm the transgender person.

Zen Toombs:

Neither, and please don't use that word as a pejoritive..

Even though Its too late now, I'd like to clarify that my use of that word was not meant to be offensive to people with mental illnesses and was very bad communication on my part.

is that what furries are?

I just wank to cartoon furry porn so I just assumed that made me a furry

Phasmal:

That's just silly.
(Besides, I thought furries just `like` anthros, I thought the ones who think they ARE non-human were called something else, but I am drawing a blank).

But no, I dont think you come out human when you should have been an animal.
Besides, how on earth would you put something like that in practice?

I think they're called 'otherkin' or something along those lines. I'm not entirely sure to be honest.

OT: As another user said, no. First of all, Furry is a generally used catch-all term for a large and fairly diverse group of people with similar interests, but different in key aspects. It's to the point where you'll have people in the group arguing 'this person is a furry while this isn't.' It's a fairly generic term with no real use other then pointing to the most obvious aspect and saying 'everyone in this group is like this.'

Secondly, most furries don't fall into the group your friend seems to be talking about. But they are out there. The difference, to me, is possibility. Transgender can have a sex change. At least if they can afford it and all of the painful things that they'd no doubt have to deal with. Furries... not so much. Now if it was possible, are there some who would do it? There's no doubt in my mind. But it's not and likely won't anytime soon.

When it comes down to it, I think it would be polite to refer to transgender if they are actively seeking to change their gender. If they're trying to have the operations needed done, even if they can't for one reason or another, then it would be polite to call them by their new gender (though I think it isn't rude to call them by what they are, but I've never met a transgendered person in real life). Furries can't be the species they want, and I think that unless they specify they want to be called that, then why would you go out of your way? And how many times does species come up in conversation anyways?

A Weakgeek:

Zen Toombs:

Neither, and please don't use that word as a pejoritive..

Even though Its too late now, I'd like to clarify that my use of that word was not meant to be offensive to people with mental illnesses and was very bad communication on my part.

No problem. I figured you didn't mean any harm, I just wanted to let you know. Have a great day!

Sexual preference and gender identity are completely different things. You could go all sciencey with genetics and hormones, but it's basically as simple as that first sentence.

so wait, by that logic should the appropriate respond be to call transgender people "mutilated Americans citizens" and for all furrehs who enter public places to be shooed out with a broom? Or squirted with a water bottle?!

/facepalm

Man, some people and their unevolved ignorance. Where is that "I dont want to live on this planet anymore" clip when yo need it?

I think it's a good question. I don't really see a problem with considering a furry person to be an animal if they say they are an animal.

Colour-Scientist:
Referring to furries as animals seems a little silly. You can call a flower a person but it doesn't make it any less of a flower.

Actually its pretty much the same. You can call a man a woman, but that doesn't make it less of a man. (or visa versa)

I'd suggest both the furry and the trans person have similar psycological problems.

You can call them what you like, furries aren't real.
(Actually...Are they? I'm really confused by this thread. I thought furries just existed in manga and anime. Or hentai. More hentai tbh.)

actually i believe this there is a web comic that involves furries and trans-gender types...trying to remember it's name...i think it's E G or something? anybody know what i'm talking about?

RedBird:
You can call them what you like, furries aren't real.
(Actually...Are they? I'm really confused by this thread. I thought furries just existed in manga and anime. Or hentai. More hentai tbh.)

Furry is a word used to describe people who like that stuff, to a varying extent it seems, some go as far as thinking they were "born as a fox". My friend compared this to TG people.

Sure why not it's just a word, if it makes them happy being called squirrel, dragon or dog, who I'm I to deny them that pleasure, just as long as there willing to put up with any nut, bone, or any other bad jokes I think up because bad innuendo is what makes me happy. Though I don't think I know any furries that go so far as to ask to be addressed by animal name.

RedBird:
You can call them what you like, furries aren't real.
(Actually...Are they? I'm really confused by this thread. I thought furries just existed in manga and anime. Or hentai. More hentai tbh.)

A furry is also the name given to the people aroused by the furries you're thinking about. I never realised how confusing this was.

Anyway... um... that's actually a pretty good argument. Or would be, if I didn't so readily accept the idea that if someone wanted to be called an animal I would oblige. I jst haven't met anyone like that.

Alright, OP, your friend was referring to Otherkin, the faggots who even we despise and wish would fuck off. The "otherkin" honestly believe they were born into the wrong species while the rest of us appreciate furry art and discussion.
Before you ask yes, I am a furry. No, I'm not an otherkin, I despise them and no, I'm not homosexual.

Well speaking for myself, not once have I ever thought that I should have been born an animal. I just happen to like the furry porn art and community a lot.

His argument just doesn't make sense. He's comparing something that is biologically possible with fantasy.

SirBryghtside:

RedBird:
You can call them what you like, furries aren't real.
(Actually...Are they? I'm really confused by this thread. I thought furries just existed in manga and anime. Or hentai. More hentai tbh.)

A furry is also the name given to the people aroused by the furries you're thinking about. I never realised how confusing this was.

Anyway... um... that's actually a pretty good argument. Or would be, if I didn't so readily accept the idea that if someone wanted to be called an animal I would oblige. I jst haven't met anyone like that.

Actually now that I know this wasn't a discussion about hentai and transsexuals, I'm less confused about the topic. More confused about why I'm actively participating...

Furry here, or was. Or am. can you be not one after you were one? Anyway the sheer amount of stupidity in the fandom from around 80% of it's members soured me on the whole thing. That and the absolute obsession with sex and bizarre fetishes contributed. It is silly. It's insane and asinine and almost all furries who believe that they were born animals, or otherkin BS have other mental problems with it. You can argue they don't, but they do. Go to a furmeet with a group and watch them put on fursuits and hump eachother through york city center and hug random kids. It's madness.

And now i return to lurking.

Furries don't think that they're animals. They're just idiots with a fetish, who are very very loud about said fetish. (Says the guy with an MLP avatar)

A Weakgeek:
After a very weird conversation with my friend, where I told my friend that it's polite to refer transgender people as their "new gender" (post op or otherwise) he gave a really weird argument. He asked if we should refer to furries as animals, since they also may think that "they were born as an animal". I know its a bit silly conversation but I wasn't able to make a solid argument against it.

So what do you think Escapist? Am I just retarded, or is it my friend?

Captcha: Save yourself... Is escapist trying to tell me that this thread is a really bad idea or something?

Your friend is technically correct in that we cannot do true sex change operations right now. We should call those particularly hardcore furries (i.e. otherkin) animals out of common courtesy despite them not really being animals just as we should call transgendered people by their preferred pronoun and title despite them biologically not being that gender.

Now, don't get me wrong, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with wanting to live as a different gender and/or species. Which is why I believe we should give otherkin the same respect that we give transgendered people. Sure, otherkin may be changing themselves "more" than transgendered people but I don't see why that means we should discriminate against them.

I'm neither transgender nor am I an otherkin and I do not believe that I will ever want to be one. Nevertheless I'm a bit disappointed at all the hate I'm seeing for otherkin in this thread. It seems that the progress of society is merely shifting the focus of the bigots and not stopping bigotry.

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