warhammer 40k or DC universe: Which is more over-powered?

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT
 

I'm not a huge fan of either, but I seem to recall hearing somewhere that superman could juggle planets.

kyuzo3567:
Ive never really had a chance to get into the Warhammer universe... could anyone recommend any good video games to get into it? (never been much for tabletop gaming... especially in uni with no source of income)

OT: the DC universe also includes all the villains as well... many of which are completely overpowered in their own right, they should be included in the calculations

You'll want to play the Relic Dawn of War games.

That is all I can really recommend.

Pre-Crisis Superman are overpowered enough to have Imperator Titan-level statline(Imperator Titan are the only things from 40k that can go toe-to-toe with Supes without Magic)

Lex Luthor can cleans 40k Universe from Abhumans, Adeptus Mechanicus, Space Marines, Psykers, Custodes, God Emperor of Mankind, the rest of 40k Humans that aren't unpowered Ordinary Humans, Xenos, and Chaos Forces(as part of purging the Omniverse from all sorts of Superpowered beings)

Masonicon:
Pre-Crisis Superman are overpowered enough to have Imperator Titan-level statline(Imperator Titan are the only things from 40k that can go toe-to-toe with Supes without Magic)

Yeeaahh, then he is eaten by invincible gods of the physical universe.

Also Luthor would simply be declared a heretic and purged by the inquisition.

kyuzo3567:
Ive never really had a chance to get into the Warhammer universe... could anyone recommend any good video games to get into it? (never been much for tabletop gaming... especially in uni with no source of income)

OT: the DC universe also includes all the villains as well... many of which are completely overpowered in their own right, they should be included in the calculations

The dawn of war rts, I've only played the first one, and it's great. Get the expansions with it too. Heard the second one is awesome too, as well as 40k: Space marine.

OT: 40k. I think even one of the factions could beat the dc universe. Imperium would just nuke the shit out of them and keep them occupied forever, and all the others can just beat the shit out of them.

Ultratwinkie:

A) Immortal (absolutely nothing can kill them) with all the powers of super man and more.

Anything can be killed, even in the DC universe. Inconceivably hard to kill, sure, but 40k has these in spades. See, for example, the gods of chaos.

Ultratwinkie:

B) Have superman's powers.

I can only think of a few characters that have superman's powers because Superman is so powerful as to be generally quite boring. Most of the supremely powerful characters also have really absurd weaknesses. Like, how the green lanterns are vulnerable to yellow in spite of the fact that yellow is a part of green.

Ultratwinkie:

C) Use magic on a level that makes Warhammer look like parlour tricks.

Flaying minds and the like is simple. 40k runs the gamut between world ending magic, suggestion, and super effective pre-cognition.

Ultratwinkie:

D) Have technology that runs on troll physics, and some beat necron tech.

Beyond the simple stuff like bolters and lasguns, you've got FTL travel via obscenely hostile alternate reality. You've got self repairing machines. You have weapon systems that destroy planets in a single blast. 40k has absurd levels of technology. Hell, the Imperium alone has fighting vehicles that keep critically injured soldiers alive indefinitely and vehicles so large as to be impossibly so, armed with more firepower than the planet currently has in store and able to withstand such punishment in turn.

Ultratwinkie:

E) Actual gods with more power than everything else combined.

There are plenty of gods in 40k. The Emperor of man, the chaos gods, the eldar pantheon, those of the orks etc.

Ultratwinkie:

F) Are part of huge inter galactic organizations like the Lantern corps (there are multiple), Brainiac's forces, etc.

The imperium of man alone fields a standing army that numbers in the hundreds of billions if not trillions, all pulled from an empire of a million worlds. That's just the grunts. You've also got several Thousand Grey Knights - soldiers who are expected to fight against the biggest and nastiest bastards in the universe as part of their normal duties. They have a million genetically modified and cybernetically agumented super soldiers that are quite simply the finest infantry in the galaxy. They have a navy of such size that it can darken the skies of hundreds of worlds with ships without effort. They have groups of assassins and inquisitors and warrior priests beyond counting.

Or, to put it another way, 40k is a universe where men fight with gods and monsters across a trillion battlefields. A small conflict could easily result in billions of casualties. Planets are purged of life on a whim. Populations have their loyalties turned in an instant. Going bigger and nastier simply isn't possible.

Ultratwinkie:

A) Immortal (absolutely nothing can kill them) with all the powers of super man and more.

Anything can be killed, even in the DC universe. Inconceivably hard to kill, sure, but 40k has these in spades. See, for example, the gods of chaos.

Ultratwinkie:

B) Have superman's powers.

I can only think of a few characters that have superman's powers because Superman is so powerful as to be generally quite boring. Most of the supremely powerful characters also have really absurd weaknesses. Like, how the green lanterns are vulnerable to yellow in spite of the fact that yellow is a part of green.

Ultratwinkie:

C) Use magic on a level that makes Warhammer look like parlour tricks.

Flaying minds and the like is simple. 40k runs the gamut between world ending magic, suggestion, and super effective pre-cognition.

Ultratwinkie:

D) Have technology that runs on troll physics, and some beat necron tech.

Beyond the simple stuff like bolters and lasguns, you've got FTL travel via obscenely hostile alternate reality. You've got self repairing machines. You have weapon systems that destroy planets in a single blast. 40k has absurd levels of technology. Hell, the Imperium alone has fighting vehicles that keep critically injured soldiers alive indefinitely and vehicles so large as to be impossibly so, armed with more firepower than the planet currently has in store and able to withstand such punishment in turn.

Ultratwinkie:

E) Actual gods with more power than everything else combined.

There are plenty of gods in 40k. The Emperor of man, the chaos gods, the eldar pantheon, those of the orks etc.

Ultratwinkie:

F) Are part of huge inter galactic organizations like the Lantern corps (there are multiple), Brainiac's forces, etc.

The imperium of man alone fields a standing army that numbers in the hundreds of billions if not trillions, all pulled from an empire of a million worlds. That's just the grunts. You've also got several Thousand Grey Knights - soldiers who are expected to fight against the biggest and nastiest bastards in the universe as part of their normal duties. They have a million genetically modified and cybernetically agumented super soldiers that are quite simply the finest infantry in the galaxy. They have a navy of such size that it can darken the skies of hundreds of worlds with ships without effort. They have groups of assassins and inquisitors and warrior priests beyond counting.

Or, to put it another way, 40k is a universe where men fight with gods and monsters across a trillion battlefields. A small conflict could easily result in billions of casualties. Planets are purged of life on a whim. Populations have their loyalties turned in an instant. Going bigger and nastier simply isn't possible.

Let me get this straight, a guy creates a supernova with his mind, and John Stewart creates a solar system with is ring. The chaos gods can destroy the 40k universe, and you have the Anti-monitor who destroyed the entire DC multiverse. Someone already mention one of Superman villains Mr. Myxyzptlyk, who is also able to do the same thing. In terms of plot armor, Joker took Mr. Myxyzptlyk powers destroys the entire multiverse and still couldn't kill Batman. Turns out no matter what Joker does he can't kill Batman by design.

DC curb-stomps 40k Universe, though if we are talking just on earth then very few can beat them unless Superman builds the miracle machine or what ever the thing was called. Don't bring Marvel in this just mutants alone will do 40k universe alone. Legion put the universe in a box, and Franklin Richards can build multiple universes like no tomorrow. Hell he made one while sleeping underneath his bed.

Eclectic Dreck:

Or, to put it another way, 40k is a universe where men fight with gods and monsters across a trillion battlefields. A small conflict could easily result in billions of casualties. Planets are purged of life on a whim. Populations have their loyalties turned in an instant. Going bigger and nastier simply isn't possible.

Of course it's possible. It's all made up, you are saying you cannot possibly make up something "bigger and nastier" than that? I just invented a setting in which entire galaxies have evolved into sentient machine colonies through some sort of technological bullshit and do battle with each other across the universe, whole galaxies are wiped out by the thousand. Bam! Bigger and nastier.

Eclectic Dreck:

Ultratwinkie:

A) Immortal (absolutely nothing can kill them) with all the powers of super man and more.

Anything can be killed, even in the DC universe. Inconceivably hard to kill, sure, but 40k has these in spades. See, for example, the gods of chaos.

Ultratwinkie:

B) Have superman's powers.

I can only think of a few characters that have superman's powers because Superman is so powerful as to be generally quite boring. Most of the supremely powerful characters also have really absurd weaknesses. Like, how the green lanterns are vulnerable to yellow in spite of the fact that yellow is a part of green.

Ultratwinkie:

C) Use magic on a level that makes Warhammer look like parlour tricks.

Flaying minds and the like is simple. 40k runs the gamut between world ending magic, suggestion, and super effective pre-cognition.

Ultratwinkie:

D) Have technology that runs on troll physics, and some beat necron tech.

Beyond the simple stuff like bolters and lasguns, you've got FTL travel via obscenely hostile alternate reality. You've got self repairing machines. You have weapon systems that destroy planets in a single blast. 40k has absurd levels of technology. Hell, the Imperium alone has fighting vehicles that keep critically injured soldiers alive indefinitely and vehicles so large as to be impossibly so, armed with more firepower than the planet currently has in store and able to withstand such punishment in turn.

Ultratwinkie:

E) Actual gods with more power than everything else combined.

There are plenty of gods in 40k. The Emperor of man, the chaos gods, the eldar pantheon, those of the orks etc.

Ultratwinkie:

F) Are part of huge inter galactic organizations like the Lantern corps (there are multiple), Brainiac's forces, etc.

The imperium of man alone fields a standing army that numbers in the hundreds of billions if not trillions, all pulled from an empire of a million worlds. That's just the grunts. You've also got several Thousand Grey Knights - soldiers who are expected to fight against the biggest and nastiest bastards in the universe as part of their normal duties. They have a million genetically modified and cybernetically agumented super soldiers that are quite simply the finest infantry in the galaxy. They have a navy of such size that it can darken the skies of hundreds of worlds with ships without effort. They have groups of assassins and inquisitors and warrior priests beyond counting.

Or, to put it another way, 40k is a universe where men fight with gods and monsters across a trillion battlefields. A small conflict could easily result in billions of casualties. Planets are purged of life on a whim. Populations have their loyalties turned in an instant. Going bigger and nastier simply isn't possible.

1. Look up the endless. They are the top gods. They cannot be killed, but they can kill anyone else.

2. DC universe has the same tech warhammer has, but defies any and all laws of physics. They have the OMAC virus, and EXOBYTES (look them up). They can literally make matter intangible, time travel, dimension travel.

3. There are characters in DC that have true immortality. True immortality is a level ABOVE that of warhammer gods. They cannot die by ANY MEANS EVER. That isn't like warhammer gods where another god can kill them. You cant kill DC immortals. at all. That is the thickest plot shield you can have. Fuck, here is list of gods in DC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods_%28DC_Comics%29

4. DC magic INCLUDES BUT ISN'T LIMITED TO:

Mind wipes (including mass mind wipes).
Rewriting entire personalities.
Soul exchanges.
Stealing any and all powers and abilities of any being, ever.
Summoning anyone dead or any fictional character into existence.
Ability to change reality, scientific laws, etc.
Summoning asteroids/comets.
Splitting seas
Plagues like the ten plagues of egypt.
reigniting suns
creating dimensions
converting matter into energy and absorbing it.
wind control
mind control
astral projection
creating matter and energy out of nothing (perpetual fucking energy).
Immunity to all kinds of magic.
transforming matter into other kinds of matter.

This is just the stuff I can find. There is much, much more. This is the basic magic the majority of the magic users in DC universe uses.

As much as I like Warhammer, DC comics beats it.

DirtyJunkieScum:

Eclectic Dreck:

Or, to put it another way, 40k is a universe where men fight with gods and monsters across a trillion battlefields. A small conflict could easily result in billions of casualties. Planets are purged of life on a whim. Populations have their loyalties turned in an instant. Going bigger and nastier simply isn't possible.

Of course it's possible. It's all made up, you are saying you cannot possibly make up something "bigger and nastier" than that? I just invented a setting in which entire galaxies have evolved into sentient machine colonies through some sort of technological bullshit and do battle with each other across the universe, whole galaxies are wiped out by the thousand. Bam! Bigger and nastier.

That's actually smaller and less nasty. One does not regard a battle between two humans as a conflict of trillions of cells. The same would be true of your galaxies. Basically, going bigger and nastier is impossible because doing so changes the scope so radically to make the big nasty stuff small and irrelevant.

Eclectic Dreck:

DirtyJunkieScum:

Eclectic Dreck:

Or, to put it another way, 40k is a universe where men fight with gods and monsters across a trillion battlefields. A small conflict could easily result in billions of casualties. Planets are purged of life on a whim. Populations have their loyalties turned in an instant. Going bigger and nastier simply isn't possible.

Of course it's possible. It's all made up, you are saying you cannot possibly make up something "bigger and nastier" than that? I just invented a setting in which entire galaxies have evolved into sentient machine colonies through some sort of technological bullshit and do battle with each other across the universe, whole galaxies are wiped out by the thousand. Bam! Bigger and nastier.

That's actually smaller and less nasty. One does not regard a battle between two humans as a conflict of trillions of cells. The same would be true of your galaxies. Basically, going bigger and nastier is impossible because doing so changes the scope so radically to make the big nasty stuff small and irrelevant.

No, no you see all of these galaxies are still inhabited by living thinking beings caught up in this horrible war, sad really.

Anyway, main point being: Yes, you can go bigger and nastier, my 1/2 second off the cuff example being only one of many, many possibilities. As for your second argument...I...I I can't even... no, I can but I have to go to work now, but rest assured I'll come back to deal with that one.

Stalemate.

Both sides have all-powerful gods.

Ultratwinkie:

1. Look up the endless. They are the top gods. They cannot be killed, but they can kill anyone else.

They cannot be killed based on the canon to date. A canon that has proven arbitrarily mutable. Thus a declaration of immortality is moot. Inconceivably hard to kill as a fundamental and unalterable law of canon sure. Impossible? DC kills the unkillable and beats the invincible on a regular basis.

Ultratwinkie:

2. [b]DC universe has the same tech warhammer has, but defies any and all laws of physics. They have the OMAC virus, and EXOBYTES (look them up). They can literally make matter intangible, time travel, dimension travel.

Technology that violates all laws of physics is not technology. It is magic. All science fiction tends to rely on some amount of magic to work of course. How the hell does a titan support itself in motion in spite of a number of laws of physics that indicate that'd be really close to impossible? Magic.

Of course intangibility? Some things can fade partially into the warp or change forms to the extent that it'd meet your requirement. Time travel? Hell, travel in the warp easily allows for such things. Dimensional travel? The Warp peeks in again.

Ultratwinkie:

3. There are characters in DC that have true immortality. True immortality is a level ABOVE that of warhammer gods. They cannot die by ANY MEANS EVER. That isn't like warhammer gods where another god can kill them. You cant kill DC immortals. at all. That is the thickest plot shield you can have. Fuck, here is list of gods in DC:[/b]

See my point for the gods above. Arbitrarily mutable rules, etc.

Ultratwinkie:

Mind wipes (including mass mind wipes).

Yep - that's a thing in warhammer.

Ultratwinkie:

Rewriting entire personalities.

Also a thing. Possession is a common example.

Ultratwinkie:

Soul exchanges.

The Eldar keep their souls in a bank and pull them out to drive their various war machines. The Emperor of Man consumes souls. The Chaos Gods harvest souls. Ownership of a soul only exists as far as one can defend said ownership in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

Stealing any and all powers and abilities of any being, ever.

I'm not aware of a character that manifests that power. Presumably, Tzeench could do so if he desired.

Ultratwinkie:

Summoning anyone dead or any fictional character into existence.

40k features the dead continuing the good fight in spite of the notable handicap of being dead and, in many cases, missing bodies.

Ultratwinkie:

Ability to change reality, scientific laws, etc.

That's just magic. Kinda a cop out.

Ultratwinkie:

Summoning asteroids/comets.

Arming and flying around in asteroids and comets.

Ultratwinkie:

Splitting seas

Similar examples of using magic to overcome natural boundaries are pretty common in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

Plagues like the ten plagues of egypt.

Virus bombs that wipe out life on planets in hours.

Ultratwinkie:

reigniting suns

Destroying suns.

Ultratwinkie:

creating dimensions

The warp, arguably. Also, webways and such.

Ultratwinkie:

converting matter into energy and absorbing it.

Simple energy generation says hello.

Ultratwinkie:

astral projection

Yep.

Ultratwinkie:

creating matter and energy out of nothing (perpetual fucking energy).

Neat trick I suppose.

Ultratwinkie:

Immunity to all kinds of magic.

See my first point. Moreover, an example of bad writing as it represents a paradox were it true.

Proof: Suppose we assume that one could be immune to magic. This protection is, by its nature, magical. Since they are immune to magic, they could not possibly have this protection. Thus, by virtue of the logical inconsistency, immunity to magic is not possible.

Ultratwinkie:

transforming matter into other kinds of matter.

You don't need magic for that. Chemistry will suffice.

DirtyJunkieScum:

No, no you see all of these galaxies are still inhabited by living thinking beings caught up in this horrible war, sad really.

They sure are. But in much the same way one does not consider the individual cells in the bodies of each combatant in say a boxing match, the concerns of the equivalent of single molecules in each galaxy are so far below the scope of your world that they are literally irrelevant.

And if you endeavor to focus on those irrelevant little specs, then the clashing of galaxies becomes little more than a rule of the universe itself.

To put it another way, in a few billion years a larger galaxy will crash into our own. In real life. The result is definitely the destruction of our own galaxy. Yet, somehow, that bit of information is so big as to be inconsequential.

The Marvel universe might be more interesting. I wonder how the Imperium would take a full-force Hulk.

Eclectic Dreck:

Ultratwinkie:

1. Look up the endless. They are the top gods. They cannot be killed, but they can kill anyone else.

They cannot be killed based on the canon to date. A canon that has proven arbitrarily mutable. Thus a declaration of immortality is moot. Inconceivably hard to kill as a fundamental and unalterable law of canon sure. Impossible? DC kills the unkillable and beats the invincible on a regular basis.

Ultratwinkie:

2. [b]DC universe has the same tech warhammer has, but defies any and all laws of physics. They have the OMAC virus, and EXOBYTES (look them up). They can literally make matter intangible, time travel, dimension travel.

Technology that violates all laws of physics is not technology. It is magic. All science fiction tends to rely on some amount of magic to work of course. How the hell does a titan support itself in motion in spite of a number of laws of physics that indicate that'd be really close to impossible? Magic.

Of course intangibility? Some things can fade partially into the warp or change forms to the extent that it'd meet your requirement. Time travel? Hell, travel in the warp easily allows for such things. Dimensional travel? The Warp peeks in again.

Ultratwinkie:

3. There are characters in DC that have true immortality. True immortality is a level ABOVE that of warhammer gods. They cannot die by ANY MEANS EVER. That isn't like warhammer gods where another god can kill them. You cant kill DC immortals. at all. That is the thickest plot shield you can have. Fuck, here is list of gods in DC:[/b]

See my point for the gods above. Arbitrarily mutable rules, etc.

Ultratwinkie:

Mind wipes (including mass mind wipes).

Yep - that's a thing in warhammer.

Ultratwinkie:

Rewriting entire personalities.

Also a thing. Possession is a common example.

Ultratwinkie:

Soul exchanges.

The Eldar keep their souls in a bank and pull them out to drive their various war machines. The Emperor of Man consumes souls. The Chaos Gods harvest souls. Ownership of a soul only exists as far as one can defend said ownership in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

Stealing any and all powers and abilities of any being, ever.

I'm not aware of a character that manifests that power. Presumably, Tzeench could do so if he desired.

Ultratwinkie:

Summoning anyone dead or any fictional character into existence.

40k features the dead continuing the good fight in spite of the notable handicap of being dead and, in many cases, missing bodies.

Ultratwinkie:

Ability to change reality, scientific laws, etc.

That's just magic. Kinda a cop out.

Ultratwinkie:

Summoning asteroids/comets.

Arming and flying around in asteroids and comets.

Ultratwinkie:

Splitting seas

Similar examples of using magic to overcome natural boundaries are pretty common in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

Plagues like the ten plagues of egypt.

Virus bombs that wipe out life on planets in hours.

Ultratwinkie:

reigniting suns

Destroying suns.

Ultratwinkie:

creating dimensions

The warp, arguably. Also, webways and such.

Ultratwinkie:

converting matter into energy and absorbing it.

Simple energy generation says hello.

Ultratwinkie:

astral projection

Yep.

Ultratwinkie:

creating matter and energy out of nothing (perpetual fucking energy).

Neat trick I suppose.

Ultratwinkie:

Immunity to all kinds of magic.

See my first point. Moreover, an example of bad writing as it represents a paradox were it true.

Proof: Suppose we assume that one could be immune to magic. This protection is, by its nature, magical. Since they are immune to magic, they could not possibly have this protection. Thus, by virtue of the logical inconsistency, immunity to magic is not possible.

Ultratwinkie:

transforming matter into other kinds of matter.

You don't need magic for that. Chemistry will suffice.

1. When I said changing matter. Its like changing a flower into a 100 ton war machine that is invincible to any and all attack. This works in converse, where an emperor capital ship is turned into jelly.

2. concerning turning matter into energy, its like deconstructing a car into pixie dust and sucking the dust into you like you would sniff a flower. Basically everything turns into a portable magic battery. This can work for destructive purposes.

3. When concerning creating dimensions and changing reality. It follows the same rules as the daedra in the Elder Scrolls do. Whatever they can think, they change. They can create dimensions with a mere thought and con travel through dimensions at will.

4. Technology in DC is more advanced than Necron tech, but more absurd than ork tech. Case in point, the exobytes, which is a nanobot that has unlimited computer power and unlimited computer storage space. Not only that, but it can give anyone any power in existence, ever. The OMAC virus turns organics into synthetic robots by use of nanobots.

5. When summoning the dead and fictional characters, that's like wishing santa claus with two M60s into existence so he can fight with you.

6. DC soul exchange is often ridiculous. If you fight an enemy who steals souls or uses a "no soul barrier", you give the soul to someone else for safekeeping as casually as you would put your stuff in a locker before going on a water ride at the amusement park.

Ultratwinkie:

1. When I said changing matter. Its like changing a flower into a 100 ton war machine that is invincible to any and all attack. This works in converse, where an emperor capital ship is turned into jelly.

Then that would fall into the category of violations of the laws of thermodynamics. Examples of grievous breaches of this nature are common in SciFi.

Ultratwinkie:

2. concerning turning matter into energy, its like deconstructing a car into pixie dust and sucking the dust into you like you would sniff a flower. Basically everything turns into a portable magic battery. This can work for destructive purposes.

Matter is energy. And, more to the point, anti-matter reactors do precisely what you describe. To a lesser extent, a fire does what you describe as well.

Ultratwinkie:

3. When concerning creating dimensions and changing reality. It follows the same rules as the daedra in the Elder Scrolls do. Whatever they can think, they change. They can create dimensions with a mere thought and con travel through dimensions at will.

That's remarkably less interesting or notable in a universe that consists of countless parallel universes. In fact, given how sketchy they are about the number of universes, it could, in fact, be infinite. If that was the case, creation of new dimensions is impossible given all possible dimensions would already exist.

Ultratwinkie:

4. Technology in DC is more advanced than Necron tech, but more absurd than ork tech. Case in point, the exobytes, which is a nanobot that has unlimited computer power and unlimited computer storage space. Not only that, but it can give anyone any power in existence, ever. The OMAC virus turns organics into synthetic robots by use of nanobots.

The former is simply an all powerful artifact that grants unthinkable power. 40k is ripe with such things. The latter is no better than cyborg or mind control.

Ultratwinkie:

5. When summoning the dead and fictional characters, that's like wishing santa claus with two M60s into existence so he can fight with you.

That falls under the same category of thermodynamics law violations. The fundamental form of the trick is "summon a thing". Summoning a thing is pretty common in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

6. DC soul exchange is often ridiculous. If you fight an enemy who steals souls or uses a "no soul barrier", you give the soul to someone else for safekeeping as casually as you would put your stuff in a locker before going on a water ride at the amusement park.

Well, that is a notable power but the effect is no greater than simply wearing armor. It is a protection against a threat. More importantly, the ease of doing so undermines how over powered it is. When the act itself is so easy, all it really does is transfer a vulnerability elsewhere. The same can be done by having a gun fall out of someones hand in a struggle.

You should also bear in mind that in many cases above I am not demonstrating absolute equality. Just giving an example of things that are similar. Creating a new dimension and building a webway are two equally absurd bits of magic.

To use an example of silly stuff from 40k: Ork technology works largely because the orks believe it should rather than because any mechanical or physical law allows it. You've also got things like energy fields that allow an object to pass through any other object as though it didn't exist. Or shields that are simply portable dimensional rifts.

Hell, one need not read more than a few pages of any 40k related thing without stumbling across some example of silly and absurd.

But, given that both universes deal in the absurd routinely, the best reason to make the distinction that one was more absurd than another is based entirely on the obvious. 40k - all of it, deals in the absurdly over powered. Every story, every game, every manual makes common use of the grim and overpowered ultra violence. Even the most human stories put the characters in conflicts where the stakes are planets and galactic sectors. DC is often not about all the marbles in the galaxy. 40k seems to trade exclusively in scope.

Or, from the other angle, the absurd in DC is largely because of narrative necessity. The unkillable gods, the immune to magic sorcerers, the soul swapping - these are absurd things that facilitated some plot. In 40k, there is no narrative need for a scope where a single war regularly devastates multiple planets and resulted in billions of deaths. There was no need for warships that destroy planets and suns. DC is something that has ramped over time. 40k started at absurd.

Batman wins.

Because, Batman.

Eclectic Dreck:

Ultratwinkie:

1. When I said changing matter. Its like changing a flower into a 100 ton war machine that is invincible to any and all attack. This works in converse, where an emperor capital ship is turned into jelly.

Then that would fall into the category of violations of the laws of thermodynamics. Examples of grievous breaches of this nature are common in SciFi.

Ultratwinkie:

2. concerning turning matter into energy, its like deconstructing a car into pixie dust and sucking the dust into you like you would sniff a flower. Basically everything turns into a portable magic battery. This can work for destructive purposes.

Matter is energy. And, more to the point, anti-matter reactors do precisely what you describe. To a lesser extent, a fire does what you describe as well.

Ultratwinkie:

3. When concerning creating dimensions and changing reality. It follows the same rules as the daedra in the Elder Scrolls do. Whatever they can think, they change. They can create dimensions with a mere thought and con travel through dimensions at will.

That's remarkably less interesting or notable in a universe that consists of countless parallel universes. In fact, given how sketchy they are about the number of universes, it could, in fact, be infinite. If that was the case, creation of new dimensions is impossible given all possible dimensions would already exist.

Ultratwinkie:

4. Technology in DC is more advanced than Necron tech, but more absurd than ork tech. Case in point, the exobytes, which is a nanobot that has unlimited computer power and unlimited computer storage space. Not only that, but it can give anyone any power in existence, ever. The OMAC virus turns organics into synthetic robots by use of nanobots.

The former is simply an all powerful artifact that grants unthinkable power. 40k is ripe with such things. The latter is no better than cyborg or mind control.

Ultratwinkie:

5. When summoning the dead and fictional characters, that's like wishing santa claus with two M60s into existence so he can fight with you.

That falls under the same category of thermodynamics law violations. The fundamental form of the trick is "summon a thing". Summoning a thing is pretty common in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

6. DC soul exchange is often ridiculous. If you fight an enemy who steals souls or uses a "no soul barrier", you give the soul to someone else for safekeeping as casually as you would put your stuff in a locker before going on a water ride at the amusement park.

Well, that is a notable power but the effect is no greater than simply wearing armor. It is a protection against a threat. More importantly, the ease of doing so undermines how over powered it is. When the act itself is so easy, all it really does is transfer a vulnerability elsewhere. The same can be done by having a gun fall out of someones hand in a struggle.

1. yes, in a scientific context yes it would. However, this is DC magic. So it converts matter not into energy per se, but magic (or mana). They don't explain how you can "run out" of magical power. Magic that can deconstruct the entire universe into mana isn't as rare as you think. Don't ask how matter converts into mana if matter is also energy or why the universe still exists with this power. Don't ask how magical abilities "run out." Don't ask why All the gods humanity has ever had somehow living together despite conflicts in power. Don't ask why a flower can be turned into an invincible tank. Its DC magic, so it makes no sense and its all powerful and can do anything it ever wants.

2. The thing is exobytes are incredibly common. You can get a barrel of the things from anywhere. In fact, you can find exobytes floating in air. Exobytes are infinite as long as Brainiac exists. The OMAC virus is more than just mind control. It has planetary range. An OMAC on Earth can infect anyone ON earth at any given time and anywhere. There is no defense against the OMAC virus. This is just the two examples I can remember.

3. Actually its not transferring a vulnerability to where it can be exploited. Its like leaving your expensive watch at home in a lockbox. There is no way your soul can be taken unless you are stupid enough to tell them where it is. Its done casually because its foolproof. Its the same reason soul stealing is left for magic users to create magic zombies out of civilians (who most likely cant safeguard their soul). Leaving your soul with someone has no negative effects if done right.

Ultratwinkie:

1. yes, in a scientific context yes it would. However, this is DC magic. So it converts matter not into energy per se, but magic (or mana). They don't explain how you can "run out" of magical power. Magic that can deconstruct the entire universe into mana isn't as rare as you think. Don't ask how matter converts into mana if matter is also energy or why the universe still exists with this power. Don't ask how magical abilities "run out." Don't ask why All the gods humanity has ever had somehow living together despite conflicts in power. Don't ask why a flower can be turned into an invincible tank. Its DC magic, so it makes no sense and its all powerful and can do anything it ever wants.

The specifics are largely irrelevant I'd say. Translating matter to energy is something that gets done regularly in normal life. Doing the same on an insane scale is also normal. Hell, if there's one thing that marks Sci-Fi it's that whole absurd energy sources. The humble photon torpedo in star trek has a yield greater than all the atomic weapons ever created because it results in a perfect annihilation of 3 kgs of matter into energy.

That it cannot translate it into a particular type of energy is largely irrelevant, especially given that magic in 40k is not governed by mana in the slightest.

Ultratwinkie:

2. The thing is exobytes are incredibly common. You can get a barrel of the things from anywhere. In fact, you can find exobytes floating in air. Exobytes are infinite as long as Brainiac exists. The OMAC virus is more than just mind control. It has planetary range. An OMAC on Earth can infect anyone ON earth at any given time and anywhere. There is no defense against the OMAC virus. This is just the two examples I can remember.

The former is, as I've said, a largely irrelevant thing. It is a plot device that allows for the absurd and yet is obviously regularly and easily countered. It's availability demonstrates that it is not all that overpowered in the strictest sense. By contrast, the only defense against a Virus Bombing? Be on a different planet. The latter remains nothing by cybernetics and mind control. A space marine held under thrall is precisely this. Sure it isn't a common thing. Turns out, it's really hard to turn a space marine with magic.

Ultratwinkie:

3. Actually its not transferring a vulnerability to where it can be exploited. Its like leaving your expensive watch at home in a lockbox. There is no way your soul can be taken unless you are stupid enough to tell them where it is. Its done casually because its foolproof. Its the same reason soul stealing is left for magic users to create magic zombies out of civilians (who most likely cant safeguard their soul). Leaving your soul with someone has no negative effects if done right.

It does have a negative effect. Someone else has your soul. This vulnerable thing is somewhere you are not. That the vulnerability is difficult to exploit is irrelevant. If the soul was in danger as part of your person, it is also in danger when it is not on your person. Much the same way that a bullet is a danger without armor but less so with armor.

How is it that I bring in Mr. Myxyzptlyk who makes the DC 52 universes his play thing not render this argument mute. I brought in Anti-monitor who destroyed the DC multiverse with ease. I mean really the Legion of Superheroes Braniac (Braniac 5 I think) built a machine that can do anything. I mean what does it take.

DC destroyed it's own multiverse several times, unless I am missing something here I haven't read anything on that level for the 40k universe on this thread. So why still have this conversation. @OnJohnNo Hulk would die, try Franklin Richards as he literally Marvels Dues Ex Machnia. Kids can warp reality at a multiverse scale, and is up there with the Marvels upper gods.

Eclectic Dreck:

DirtyJunkieScum:

No, no you see all of these galaxies are still inhabited by living thinking beings caught up in this horrible war, sad really.

They sure are. But in much the same way one does not consider the individual cells in the bodies of each combatant in say a boxing match, the concerns of the equivalent of single molecules in each galaxy are so far below the scope of your world that they are literally irrelevant.

And if you endeavor to focus on those irrelevant little specs, then the clashing of galaxies becomes little more than a rule of the universe itself.

To put it another way, in a few billion years a larger galaxy will crash into our own. In real life. The result is definitely the destruction of our own galaxy. Yet, somehow, that bit of information is so big as to be inconsequential.

As I said, my 1/2 second off the cuff example is not the issue. You said going bigger and nastier simply isn't possible. If you cannot get something bigger and nastier than the 40k universe within the realms of human imagination...then you have no imagination.

and that concludes, Superpowered fictional universes of DC and Marvel are can stomps 40k

another thing that makes DC more overpowered than 40k: Doomsday(it can stomps all 4 chaos gods themselves because it's too dumb to be corrupted by Chaos and it's can grows stronger and more invulnerable everytime we hits it harder with whatever)

Dtox333:
considering the sheer size of the WH40k universe, I don't think they'd need anything special to take down people such as superman or what have you, he'd just be overwhelmed.

if someone like BATMAN can be pretty much the counter measure to some of the greatest heros, then I'm fairly sure a vast empire of advanced people's with near endless resources can overcome what's in the DC universe.

And that's just the Imperium of Man (and it's one million planets+1000 strong 100 chapter Astartes super soldiers). Employing the other forces in 40k would be overkill.

It bears mentioning, though, that 40k was built to be ridiculously powerful in the first place.

Magenera:
The Marvel universe might be more interesting. I wonder how the Imperium would take a full-force Hulk.

Masonicon:
another thing that makes DC more overpowered than 40k: Doomsday(it can stomps all 4 chaos gods themselves because it's too dumb to be corrupted by Chaos and it's can grows stronger and more invulnerable everytime we hits it harder with whatever)

You can't "stomp" Chaos gods in the first place, as they are incarnations of sentient emotions. That's like saying Doomsday can stomp out deciet, death, war, and disease. The Chaos Gods exist as long as any of those things are present. That's what sustains them.

If you mean he can take on, say, greater Daemons, maybe. Assuming a Great Unclean One doesn't poison/disease him 1000 ways to sunday or he's compeltely incapable of feeling lust or pleasure and thus doesn't succumb to a Keeper of Secrets.

Eclectic Dreck:

Ultratwinkie:

1. Look up the endless. They are the top gods. They cannot be killed, but they can kill anyone else.

They cannot be killed based on the canon to date. A canon that has proven arbitrarily mutable. Thus a declaration of immortality is moot. Inconceivably hard to kill as a fundamental and unalterable law of canon sure. Impossible? DC kills the unkillable and beats the invincible on a regular basis.

Ultratwinkie:

2. [b]DC universe has the same tech warhammer has, but defies any and all laws of physics. They have the OMAC virus, and EXOBYTES (look them up). They can literally make matter intangible, time travel, dimension travel.

Technology that violates all laws of physics is not technology. It is magic. All science fiction tends to rely on some amount of magic to work of course. How the hell does a titan support itself in motion in spite of a number of laws of physics that indicate that'd be really close to impossible? Magic.

Of course intangibility? Some things can fade partially into the warp or change forms to the extent that it'd meet your requirement. Time travel? Hell, travel in the warp easily allows for such things. Dimensional travel? The Warp peeks in again.

Ultratwinkie:

3. There are characters in DC that have true immortality. True immortality is a level ABOVE that of warhammer gods. They cannot die by ANY MEANS EVER. That isn't like warhammer gods where another god can kill them. You cant kill DC immortals. at all. That is the thickest plot shield you can have. Fuck, here is list of gods in DC:[/b]

See my point for the gods above. Arbitrarily mutable rules, etc.

Ultratwinkie:

Mind wipes (including mass mind wipes).

Yep - that's a thing in warhammer.

Ultratwinkie:

Rewriting entire personalities.

Also a thing. Possession is a common example.

Ultratwinkie:

Soul exchanges.

The Eldar keep their souls in a bank and pull them out to drive their various war machines. The Emperor of Man consumes souls. The Chaos Gods harvest souls. Ownership of a soul only exists as far as one can defend said ownership in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

Stealing any and all powers and abilities of any being, ever.

I'm not aware of a character that manifests that power. Presumably, Tzeench could do so if he desired.

Ultratwinkie:

Summoning anyone dead or any fictional character into existence.

40k features the dead continuing the good fight in spite of the notable handicap of being dead and, in many cases, missing bodies.

Ultratwinkie:

Ability to change reality, scientific laws, etc.

That's just magic. Kinda a cop out.

Ultratwinkie:

Summoning asteroids/comets.

Arming and flying around in asteroids and comets.

Ultratwinkie:

Splitting seas

Similar examples of using magic to overcome natural boundaries are pretty common in 40k.

Ultratwinkie:

Plagues like the ten plagues of egypt.

Virus bombs that wipe out life on planets in hours.

Ultratwinkie:

reigniting suns

Destroying suns.

Ultratwinkie:

creating dimensions

The warp, arguably. Also, webways and such.

Ultratwinkie:

converting matter into energy and absorbing it.

Simple energy generation says hello.

Ultratwinkie:

astral projection

Yep.

Ultratwinkie:

creating matter and energy out of nothing (perpetual fucking energy).

Neat trick I suppose.

Ultratwinkie:

Immunity to all kinds of magic.

See my first point. Moreover, an example of bad writing as it represents a paradox were it true.

Proof: Suppose we assume that one could be immune to magic. This protection is, by its nature, magical. Since they are immune to magic, they could not possibly have this protection. Thus, by virtue of the logical inconsistency, immunity to magic is not possible.

Ultratwinkie:

transforming matter into other kinds of matter.

You don't need magic for that. Chemistry will suffice.

Does that means Powered Exoskeletons(unless requires it's users to be augmented) considered Science while most other Futuristic Technologies including even Strong AI and all the methods of Human Augmentation(including even mechanical augmentation) are considered Magic?

and if you thinks laws of thermodynamics makes sci-fi technologies impossible IRL, how it makes Man-Made Global Warming and WTC Collapses from fire alone possible?

Masonicon:

Does that means Powered Exoskeletons(unless requires it's users to be augmented) considered Science while most other Futuristic Technologies including even Strong AI and all the methods of Human Augmentation(including even mechanical augmentation) are considered Magic?

No, because such inventions do not obviously violate various natural laws as we understand them.

Masonicon:

and if you thinks laws of thermodynamics makes sci-fi technologies impossible IRL, how it makes Man-Made Global Warming and WTC Collapses from fire alone possible?

The laws of thermodynamics are simple and, as far as any test or model has shown to date, impossible to violate. As a whole, they simply assert that any system that does useful work will lose energy. Thus why car's require gas, why you require food etc. Laws along similar lines assert that the total mass energy of the universe is a constant.

There are plenty of examples of Sci-Fi technology that violate one or more physical principles. Faster than light travel for the most part does precisely this though various works have attempted to offer a mechanism for covering distances faster than light without actually exceeding the absolute speed of light (Star Trek's Warp Drive, Warhammer's use of travel via an alternate dimension). Other technologies, such as true AI, do not seem to violate any fundamental laws - we simply have not discovered how to make it work.

Eclectic Dreck:

Masonicon:

Does that means Powered Exoskeletons(unless requires it's users to be augmented) considered Science while most other Futuristic Technologies including even Strong AI and all the methods of Human Augmentation(including even mechanical augmentation) are considered Magic?

No, because such inventions do not obviously violate various natural laws as we understand them.

Masonicon:

and if you thinks laws of thermodynamics makes sci-fi technologies impossible IRL, how it makes Man-Made Global Warming and WTC Collapses from fire alone possible?

The laws of thermodynamics are simple and, as far as any test or model has shown to date, impossible to violate. As a whole, they simply assert that any system that does useful work will lose energy. Thus why car's require gas, why you require food etc. Laws along similar lines assert that the total mass energy of the universe is a constant.

There are plenty of examples of Sci-Fi technology that violate one or more physical principles. Faster than light travel for the most part does precisely this though various works have attempted to offer a mechanism for covering distances faster than light without actually exceeding the absolute speed of light (Star Trek's Warp Drive, Warhammer's use of travel via an alternate dimension). Other technologies, such as true AI, do not seem to violate any fundamental laws - we simply have not discovered how to make it work.

I respect your opinion!

and just because you considers it non-scientific or violates physical principles, doesn't always mean they're fictional

As always happens when someone brings the 40k discussion into the mix, people not intimate with the setting dont really grasp the scale of it all, and people who are intimate aren't particularly helpful. It's a rabid cult kind of franchise.

In a rational competition, as in, excluding things that basically are all powerful(as in, the creator of the universe etc), as that invalidates the discussion to begin with, 40k wins.

Take the Corps for example, it has what, 7200 members? Most of which are fairly average? How exactly do they face millions of Tyranid bioships? Or the imperial Navy for that matter. We are talking hundreds of thousands of ships per fleet. Superman is indestructible, but, you know, join the club. Indestructible people disappear into the Warp all the time. Or just get overwealmed by endless numbers. Even if nobody stops him, he can't physically kill planets fast enough to make the empire care, unless he heads for Terra. Hulk? Even if he could jump from planet to planet, he simply cant smash fast enough either.

Generally, you are comparing some thousands of exceptional individuals to trillions of hardened warriors. The numbers are just too skewed.

And if you are not talking about empires of hundreds of thousand planets, you are not really a threat to the Imperum. 40k's scale is just silly, on purpose.

If you do start bringing in the Endless, DC wins, simply because 40k's creator deities are not really part of the game.... but bringing in personifications of concepts like Death or Fate is not really much of a discussion. It's like trying to compare a True or False statement numerically. Turns out my super awesome heat ray power loses to the concept of death? uuuum.

Ladies and gentlemen, settle down. What I'm about to tell you will come as quite the body-blow.

First off, DC universe(s). We have magic users, beings that are "immortal", can fly through space without a suit, and so on. Yada, yada, yada.

Take a look at the 40k universe. Ithas everything DC has, but with a few notable additions. Virus bombs, nova weapons, railcannons, pulse rifles, Lifta-droppas, mekkannon, TITANS (!). Sure, DC has tech, but nothing like 40k has. If any of you 40k fans have read Priests of mars, you'll know about the warlord titan. This turd has a nightmare, a SODDING NIGHTMARE, and blows the largest space-vessel outside of Nid's out of kick. It was scared and it fired it's plasma destructor at a reaver titan (the next size down) and the only reason the reaver didn't die was becasue one of the princeps (secondary drivers) knocked the things aim. The smallest titan is a warhound; 100m high (or so i'm told.) An imperator titan (above Warlord) is 1km or so high, and uses those plasma destructors I mentioned in GATLING ARRANGEMENTS. IT STEPS ON WARHOUNDS, FOR FUN. Then The Gods of Chaos. They do something similar to Imperators. Beings of "pure emotions", they are thus invicible, indestructible, immortal beings. And The only weakness they have involves wiping out all of the universes that exist in any fate or timeline, ever. Feasibly impossible. Cos' whoever did so would thus go down too.

Tyranids. I love the critters. For a simple reason. Superman? Scratch his arm, sample his gentic code, release a phage organism directly tailored to bring him down. OR, use his code to create super-nids. A scary prospect; all-devouring aliens in spandex. (shudders)

And for my last point, the DC universe was made so it's characters are invinceible, unbeatable men that stand up to things that should nerf them to atoms. And they come up smelling of roses. Why? becasue the need to be. Meanwhile, the 40k universe has been designed so certain scenarios make certain races unbeatable, or more beatable than normal. This is so all races are playable and thus can beat everthing else. But a lot of races can exploit each other or bolster one another. In short, facing the entire universe is impossible. It CANNOT be done. You'd have to face each faction in tiny bits, one at a time. And in a universe containing a trillion, million million of individual people, creatures and etheral beings, that isn't an option.

Helmholtz Watson:

TimeLord:
Life Eater virus. A biological weapon that disintegrates your body in nanoseconds.
Exterminatus. An orbital bombardment that has the ability to literally crack open a planet.
Biologically advances super solders with guns that fire miniature rockets, tanks that fire lazer beams, swords that can carve through armour and flesh like paper.
Titans that have weapons capable of levelling entire continents

Vs

Men in spandex

40k wins

You seem to be forgetting...

Watchman technically is not in the main DC universe, so it doesn't count as much.

Also, remember that Warhammer 40,000 also does have their own gods from the ever changing horrors of the Warp, the few survivors of the Eldar panthoen, the ever fighting brothers of the Orks, the (former) Necron star gods, and the God Emperor of Mankind.

Ultratwinkie:

Revnak:

Ultratwinkie:

the super hero powers are powered by a magic maguffin that has no connection to anything other than "because we can." A lot of the time the magic runs above and beyond anything troll physics can even dream of.

And DC comics use basically every God humanity ever had... ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gods_%28DC_Comics%29

I'm pretty certain the chaos gods would corrupt the powers upon killing their original power sources. Come to think of it, it would take time to start corrupting them.

The chaos gods killed every god that numerous races with gods have ever had. I think they could eventually accomplish this again. The question would be whether DC would have already won by then. In the long term 40k would win, but DC would win for a little while after they realized that they're going to have to start killing people. Lots of people.

I don't know if they can, since they are heavily outnumbered. Especially since Hinduism has Shiva on their side. Not to mention the array of fucked up Gods we invented over the years.

Slaanesh alone easily carved her way through the Eldar Panetheon by herself, leaving only three Gods alive, and only one of those got out unscaved (one was broken into a billion pieces, one is currently in Nurgle's captivity, and the last one is currently hiding in the Eldar's web-way). If all the Chaos gods, plus all their demon princes, the C'tan, the Emperor of Mankind, and all the other dieties of this universe worked together, they could do some damage. If the Gods of earth or powered by belief like the Warhammer 40K ones are, then you have some gods who split some 7 billion people for their power source, then they are facing down beings powered by Hundreds of trillions of sentient creatures.

Now, if Chaos would infect magic users just for using magic, I am not so sure. However, what Chaos can do is tempt them with promises of greater power, more power than any Devil could offer them in exchange for servitude.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked