Pyramid Head Presents an Essay on Loli (Anime and Manga Rant)

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT
 

This is an item i wrote around a year ago and posted on an anime hosting site i'm no longer a part of because the community there was something akin to YouTube in that people who even knew grammar existed were a very distinct minority. I'm moving it here just for the hell of it. Feel free to comment or tell me where i should move this. Be warned, it is a bit of a wall of text and if you're not into anime or manga you may be confused.

During the 80s a massive trend hit Japanese manga with the same intensity that a baseball traveling at 150 miles per hour hit's a glass window, utterly changing the frame of manga for ever, and that was the advent of "Loli." For those of you who are unaware, loli, or lolicon, are slang terms for "Lolita Complex." Referring to an old novel "Lolita" about a middle aged man falling head over balls in love for a 12-year-old girl, Lolita complex doesn't exactly draw a positive image when you use it in it's literal context. Many people seem to believe "Lolicon" refers to anyone who has some form of attraction, sexual or otherwise, to "Lolis," females who appear to be or indeed are young girls depicted in a cute or sexually charged manner. Is this the correct way of thinking?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Though this is debated even in Japan, country of origin to this phenomenon, as far as many high voices in Japan are concerned, Lolita Complex is a slang term for pedophilia, and openly boasting about being a lolicon will to some be seen as openly boasting to be a pedophile.

Before we delve further, a history lesson will be necessary. Lolicon style anime flourished in the 80s when many adult and non-adult targeting mangas found success with loli characters. A lot of it was in similar context to other popular Japanese themes in their ecchi and hentai, and that is exploring forbidden relationships, and many issues involve what is considered to be sexual deviance. The influence of this ranges from yaoi having it's own extended library, bestiality, incest, lolicons in 18+ material, and nearly any other form of paraphilia or former paraphilia you care to name. Obviously yaoi takes a lot less heat, especially since homosexuality is no longer considered to be a mental disorder, but lolicon is still to many a slang term for pedophilic displays.

With that in mind, where did this confusion come from? As mentioned earlier, many feel the definition is much more relaxed and doesn't necessarily need to include sexually explicit manners and can include kawaii depictions or items that only allude to sexuality, one example being someone who used a clip from anime Seitokai Yakuindomo in which a 15 year old frequently mistaken for a 9 year old leaps up to kick someone and her shoe flies off, smacking her target in the face. Much of this is due to western influence; or at least influence not native to mainstream beliefs in Japan, coming up with the "Anything cute or sexy, not necessarily explicit and not necessarily underaged" definition, essentially making loli a subset of moe.

Moe is a separate kettle of fish. Literally meaning "To Sprout" moe does indeed fit a broader definition and can refer to sexy, cute, or thought provoking examples (Though rarely is the latter exercised) relating to girls who are under-aged. The definition is so broad that examples used in Lucky Star of Miyuki and Yutaka are both accurate depictions of moe even though the two are polar opposites. Moe indeed is loosely defined enough in Japan itself that you could make the square-rectangle argument, all loli is moe but not all moe is loli.

Now resuming the history lesson, the debate on lolis exact definition is one that still rages on. It generally is identical to the argument between the damaging effects of violence in games, the general belief of opponents is that loli will encourage people to act on the deviance depicted while proponents feel loli is clearly fiction and that the actual risk of an increase in sexual deviance is negligible at best. These debates do include the Western vs. Eastern definition matter, but they do take some dark turns.

Major fuel for the fire of "Is it as harmless as we think" comes in the form of tragedies. Not unlike the debate of how heavily the game "Doom" influenced the two students behind the Columbine Massacre, arguments over how heavily lolicon media was involved in the actions of criminals is brought up. This happened most strongly with a man referred to as "The Otaku Killer," who infamously kidnapped, murdered, and raped the corpses of four young girls during 1988 and 1989, culminating in cannibalism of one victim which many feel is the apex of human depravity. This sentiment resurged as lately as 2005 when a registered sex offender committed a murder not unlike an act of The Otaku Killer. Many have been fast to try and pin blame on lolicon material, even though evidence of it's involvement was lacking at best.

The question of how much influence the item has is one that should be examined carefully. Some believe graphic depictions encourage behavior, others believe they are outlets and prevent the behavior, a middle ground is that a majority is capable of telling it's fiction and entire outlet or genre should not be targeted because of the mentally ill who cannot make the distinction. All claims have been examined and while research in Japan suggests that frequent viewing of hentai or porn does not lead to an increase in sexually deviant behavior, nothing conclusive exists due to the extreme number of variables in human psychiatry. That being said, there are known cases of sexual repression turning into violent behavior which may lend credence to the "Outlet and prevention" argument.

Yet the argument is very complex, and evidence has been presented by both sides. Though true the more credible evidence tends to exist with the in favor group, namely one statistic showing that despite the existence of lolicon and the spread of lolicon, the crimes they were accused of causing have been decreasing in frequency during what should have been the timeline they were increasing; on the other hand, depending on which definition you adhere to, lolicon does indeed depict a fetish that can be extremely damaging if someone acts on it, so while it may not be instant-pedo material, a degree of regulation may be necessary. On the backside of the other hand, it should be noted that when tragedy does strike, ignoring all other factors and focusing on one item regardless of previous signs is a hazardous practice on it's own.

Though lolicon is a hotly debated topic, misinformation exists on all sides so taking one without careful analysis might be risky. Those trying to ban it are wrong, restricting creative freedoms, trying to restrict what is harmless entertainment to most and an outlet to others is not going to solve any problems. Those who publish it sometimes make too light a deal of just what kind of consequences would arise should sexual relationships exist. Those who try to argue the harmlessness of it all are sometimes not aware that it's literal definition is merely a slang term for pedophilia and that which definition is being used should always be brought into consideration.

As for my stance, I'm mixed. This isn't like a sexual fetish existing in a gray area, there is a reason relationships with young girls is a taboo, and I won't deny that such depictions sometimes makes me uncomfortable. On the other hand, it could be someone with a harmless attraction to a 2D image who views real life in a completely different light. Though I will more often than not oppose restriction of creative freedom, I'm not entirely comfortable with lolicon depictions, but generally feel that way about any fetish I don't share. It's an entertainment medium, a 2D drawing that people don't take seriously depicting subject matter that is a very serious matter. Perhaps it is with good reason that this subject is debated, and a level of regulation might also be a good idea. Bare in mind, by that I mean as in how games are regulated with warnings relating to content and an age rating, not complete bans. If vague depictions help vent desires that people who do possess a fetish they really can't help, I won't begrudge them their taste in adult material. If people think it's cute or amusing, I won't begrudge them for having different tastes. If people think mere depictions will cause utter disaster, I'll call them out on it and demand that they provide proof or adjust their stance.

Now, for the end of this essay, you have a bit of homework. Baring in mind that the literal term is indeed synonymous with pedophile, do you still identify yourself as a lolicon, or do you feel the alternate Western definition that it can be lesser depictions of ecchi and not even feature girls who really are under-aged but simply look that way? Do you think that the subject matter is completely harmless or that it should be taken seriously because of how things work in real life? Please think about it.

--Likes his Women in Straight Jackets
Pyramid Head

This is an item i wrote around a year ago and posted on an anime hosting site i'm no longer a part of because the community there was something akin to YouTube in that people who even knew grammar existed were a very distinct minority.

Glass houses, etc. And that's all I'm gonna say about that.

Or rather, I'll try not to say more.

For those of you who are unaware, loli, or lolicon, are slang terms for "Lolita Complex." Referring to an old novel "Lolita" about a middle aged man falling head over balls in love for a 12-year-old girl, Lolita complex doesn't exactly draw a positive image when you use it in it's literal context. Many people seem to believe "Lolicon" refers to anyone who has some form of attraction, sexual or otherwise, to "Lolis," females who appear to be or indeed are young girls depicted in a cute or sexually charged manner. Is this the correct way of thinking?

"Lolicon" is short for lolita complex, correct, but "loli" refers just to the girl herself.

all loli is moe but not all moe is loli.

I donno. Mina Tepes from Dance in the Vampire Bund is a loli, but not played for moe. Umineko's Maria is...well, no moe reaction there either IMHO.

Now resuming the history lesson, the debate on lolis exact definition is one that still rages on.

Having just gone through this on TVTropes, I characterize it this way: there's a significant number of people outside the anime fandom that see loli and pedophilia as inseparable. Most of those in the anime fandom are easily able to separate the two, and see loli as just a concise word for "cute little girl."

Now, for the end of this essay, you have a bit of homework. Baring in mind that the literal term is indeed synonymous with pedophile, do you still identify yourself as a lolicon, or do you feel the alternate Western definition that it can be lesser depictions of ecchi and not even feature girls who really are under-aged but simply look that way? Do you think that the subject matter is completely harmless or that it should be taken seriously because of how things work in real life? Please think about it.

I loves me some Kojika, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

evilneko:

This is an item i wrote around a year ago and posted on an anime hosting site i'm no longer a part of because the community there was something akin to YouTube in that people who even knew grammar existed were a very distinct minority.

Glass houses, etc. And that's all I'm gonna say about that.

Or rather, I'll try not to say more.

For those of you who are unaware, loli, or lolicon, are slang terms for "Lolita Complex." Referring to an old novel "Lolita" about a middle aged man falling head over balls in love for a 12-year-old girl, Lolita complex doesn't exactly draw a positive image when you use it in it's literal context. Many people seem to believe "Lolicon" refers to anyone who has some form of attraction, sexual or otherwise, to "Lolis," females who appear to be or indeed are young girls depicted in a cute or sexually charged manner. Is this the correct way of thinking?

"Lolicon" is short for lolita complex, correct, but "loli" refers just to the girl herself.

all loli is moe but not all moe is loli.

I donno. Mina Tepes from Dance in the Vampire Bund is a loli, but not played for moe. Umineko's Maria is...well, no moe reaction there either IMHO.

Now resuming the history lesson, the debate on lolis exact definition is one that still rages on.

Having just gone through this on TVTropes, I characterize it this way: there's a significant number of people outside the anime fandom that see loli and pedophilia as inseparable. Most of those in the anime fandom are easily able to separate the two, and see loli as just a concise word for "cute little girl."

Now, for the end of this essay, you have a bit of homework. Baring in mind that the literal term is indeed synonymous with pedophile, do you still identify yourself as a lolicon, or do you feel the alternate Western definition that it can be lesser depictions of ecchi and not even feature girls who really are under-aged but simply look that way? Do you think that the subject matter is completely harmless or that it should be taken seriously because of how things work in real life? Please think about it.

I loves me some Kojika, and I'm not afraid to admit it.

I'm basing that more on the way i've heard it, since i've heard the loli definition used both ways. This isn't my best work, i forgot to mention that the reason loli's sprang up in adult material in the first place was Japanese censorship rules relating to pubic hair (Don't ask), but i'm glad to see i've gotten a response so quickly.

Now maybe you could tell me who the fuck Kojika is?

I'm probably gonna get some flak for this but in my opinion, anyone who finds a "loli" character sexually attractive is a bona-fide pedophile. I don't buy that someone could be attracted to characters who closely resemble young girls but not actually be attracted to them in real life, I suspect what they really mean is that privately they are into both but for legal/moral reasons they only go after the cartoon ones.

Note: this isn't including the use of the word "loli" as a general slang for little girl.

The irony of this post: The same can be said for the terms hentai, ecchi, anime, and otaku, at least inasmuch as people in the West get them completely wrong, and at least one of them carries a pejorative in Japan. Moral of the story: your average weaboo doesn't speak as much Japanese as they think they do.

Pyramid Head:
Referring to an old novel "Lolita" about a middle aged man falling head over balls in love for a 12-year-old girl,...

This always annoys the hell out of me. Humbert does not "fall in love with" or even become infatuated with her Dolores, he deliberately stalks and sexually abuses her (a 13 year old), drives her mother to suicide and then keeps her as his sex slave. The only genuine emotions he exibits are jealousy and fear that she might escape him. And self pity. lots of self pity.

And anyone who thinks that lolicon has no sexual connotations is fooling themselves.

Pyramid Head:

I'm basing that more on the way i've heard it, since i've heard the loli definition used both ways. This isn't my best work, i forgot to mention that the reason loli's sprang up in adult material in the first place was Japanese censorship rules relating to pubic hair (Don't ask), but i'm glad to see i've gotten a response so quickly.

Yes. I've heard about that. I was actually amazed the first time I saw pubes in a hentai. That was back when I actually sought it out. Most of it is sucky non-con/rapey stuff. Good yuri is practically non-existent. I digress though.

Now maybe you could tell me who the fuck Kojika is?

Not who, what.

Kodomo no Jikan. Only the greatest manga ever.* Also has an as-yet incomplete animated adaptation, though it fails to provide the same depth. Definitely not to be confused with the hentai anime of the same name, although oddly enough some basic elements are the same... with genders reversed...

I usually have an avatar from Kojika. In fact, I think I'll go put one of them on.

*Possibly exaggerating.

I don't like sloppy language in general, I would like it if people would use language more literally. "Pedophile" and "child molester" have distinct literal definitions, but sloppiness leads many people to see them as synonyms. Even when they know enough to recognize the technical distinction, they will commonly assert worthless psycho-analysis to justify treating the words as synonymous. Typically this involves wildly unfounded generalizations, such as surveying some people and claiming the results apply to all people, or just pulling things out of their ass with an "clearly / it's obvious / everyone knows", etc. In light of this discussion, I would say a fan of loli art is a pedophile, but not necessarily a child molester, a criminal, or even a bad person.

Pyramid head posts a thread about rape/ devience.

Expected :P

I think there's a pretty simple way to summarize the whole issue, it's fucking disgusting. Get your small breasted short tsunderes out of my anime already. I find them completely unattractive. I prefer my women with disproportionately large breasts and annoyingly happy all the time. These kinks that are not mine disgust me.

Now, for the end of this essay, you have a bit of homework. Baring in mind that the literal term is indeed synonymous with pedophile, do you still identify yourself as a lolicon, or do you feel the alternate Western definition that it can be lesser depictions of ecchi and not even feature girls who really are under-aged but simply look that way? Do you think that the subject matter is completely harmless or that it should be taken seriously because of how things work in real life? Please think about it.

I never identified myself as a lolicon, but I do tend to find loli design cute, and I have no inherent objections to lolicon done in drawn adult material...so I probably identify more with the "alternate Western definition." If I could understand that second question, I'd probably answer it. What things working in real life are we talking about? The murders you mentioned?

Owyn_Merrilin:
The irony of this post: The same can be said for the terms hentai, ecchi, anime, and otaku, at least inasmuch as people in the West get them completely wrong, and at least one of them carries a pejorative in Japan. Moral of the story: your average weaboo doesn't speak as much Japanese as they think they do.

That's only true if one actually goes to Japan, uses those terms, and expects to be understood in the context they're used to. Otherwise, there's no real way to get those words "wrong," in the same sense that a Japanese person isn't wrong for referring to an apartment complex as a "mansion" or underwear as "pants" (manshon and pantsu, respectively).

Loan words don't always retain the same meaning in their new locations, especially for languages like English and Japanese which absolutely thrive on them.

NeutralDrow:

Now, for the end of this essay, you have a bit of homework. Baring in mind that the literal term is indeed synonymous with pedophile, do you still identify yourself as a lolicon, or do you feel the alternate Western definition that it can be lesser depictions of ecchi and not even feature girls who really are under-aged but simply look that way? Do you think that the subject matter is completely harmless or that it should be taken seriously because of how things work in real life? Please think about it.

I never identified myself as a lolicon, but I do tend to find loli design cute, and I have no inherent objections to lolicon done in drawn adult material...so I probably identify more with the "alternate Western definition." If I could understand that second question, I'd probably answer it. What things working in real life are we talking about? The murders you mentioned?

Owyn_Merrilin:
The irony of this post: The same can be said for the terms hentai, ecchi, anime, and otaku, at least inasmuch as people in the West get them completely wrong, and at least one of them carries a pejorative in Japan. Moral of the story: your average weaboo doesn't speak as much Japanese as they think they do.

That's only true if one actually goes to Japan, uses those terms, and expects to be understood in the context they're used to. Otherwise, there's no real way to get those words "wrong," in the same sense that a Japanese person isn't wrong for referring to an apartment complex as a "mansion" or underwear as "pants" (manshon and pantsu, respectively).

Loan words don't always retain the same meaning in their new locations, especially for languages like English and Japanese which absolutely thrive on them.

Your point? The OP was making the same claim about Lolicon that I did about ecchi, hentai, anime, and otaku: westerners routinely misuse the term.

Edit: Also, "Pants" is proper English for underwear. It's a British thing.

image

^Not sure what else to say, I kinda know all this already. Goes to show it pays to have a Japanese friend XD

Now, for the end of this essay, you have a bit of homework. Baring in mind that the literal term is indeed synonymous with pedophile, do you still identify yourself as a lolicon, or do you feel the alternate Western definition that it can be lesser depictions of ecchi and not even feature girls who really are under-aged but simply look that way? Do you think that the subject matter is completely harmless or that it should be taken seriously because of how things work in real life? Please think about it.

-Haha, nope and I figure if it looks like jailbait stay away from it
-It's one of those things where it depends on how you look at it and it CAN range from totally harmless to serious extremes... not sure if there is a yes or no answer to that
-oh, I will ;P

Owyn_Merrilin:

NeutralDrow:

Owyn_Merrilin:
The irony of this post: The same can be said for the terms hentai, ecchi, anime, and otaku, at least inasmuch as people in the West get them completely wrong, and at least one of them carries a pejorative in Japan. Moral of the story: your average weaboo doesn't speak as much Japanese as they think they do.

That's only true if one actually goes to Japan, uses those terms, and expects to be understood in the context they're used to. Otherwise, there's no real way to get those words "wrong," in the same sense that a Japanese person isn't wrong for referring to an apartment complex as a "mansion" or underwear as "pants" (manshon and pantsu, respectively).

Loan words don't always retain the same meaning in their new locations, especially for languages like English and Japanese which absolutely thrive on them.

Your point? The OP was making the same claim about Lolicon that I did about ecchi, hentai, anime, and otaku: westerners routinely misuse the term.

Huh. I misread his post as being ambiguous on the subject (and when you called it "ironic," I though you were implying he was saying the opposite of you).

In that case, my point is that he's wrong, too.

Edit: Also, "Pants" is proper English for underwear. It's a British thing.

Exactly, it's British. Everyone knows they can't speak proper English, even them. That's why they started mocking and deriding American English in the 18th century while simultaneously borrowing every second term they came across.

...that is a joke, yes. I don't hold anything against British English except for their heinous crime against etymology called "aluminium." In any case, the point stands: if an American anime fan went to Japan and asked about "hentai," the result would be roughly the same as a Japanese person going into an American store and asking where to find "pants" (they'd just have better luck in the UK).

I guess I must be really into anime culture (no, I don't guess, I know it :P) cause I didn't read anything new here but this is a good 101 course in the maters of lolita complex for the uninitiated I suppose.

As for my view, I can understand 2D-con in all it's forms and lolicon is one of them. I'd post that geshiken gif that explains it but i'm tired atm. Just as a woman with a cat tail and cat ears that really loves you cause of your dimples doesn't exist, so does the 12 year old with the craving for penis that can't be satiated. Lolicon is entirely fantasy and has no relationship with reality. (not any more than dragons do by being similar to lizards anyways)

So yeah, I don't mind people enjoying that mythical creature, the loli. I myself only care for depth or epicness though so it won't be a major boost (nor a negative) if a series contains them. One of my favorite manga series, kodomo no jikan, is pretty heavy on in and has some quite suggestive moments as well but where it shines is in character development and that was the reason I went through 6 volumes in one sitting. I suppose the mangaka being female has a lot to do with sexual situations being depicted in a way that does not cheapen the characters but merely transcribes their experiences in a way that feels real.

Now, if some people can't tell fantasy from reality or have some dark urges they let out through their entertainment, tough shit. Unless you ban all violence on tv first, you have no ground to stand on if you choose to go after them.

I donno. Mina Tepes from Dance in the Vampire Bund is a loli, but not played for moe. Umineko's Maria is...well, no moe reaction there either IMHO.

Say whaaaa? :P

Maybe in the anime, the manga has it's moments, quite a few of em too. :D

Revnak:
I think there's a pretty simple way to summarize the whole issue, it's fucking disgusting. Get your small breasted short tsunderes out of my anime already. I find them completely unattractive. I prefer my women with disproportionately large breasts and annoyingly happy all the time. These kinks that are not mine disgust me.

But tiny tyrannical tsunderes are the best! How dare your kinks conflict with my own! Heads will roll for this outrage!

So wait I have a question, are all loli's under 18 or is anyone female with a underdeveloped body a loli?

For example a character that that is said to be over 18 but doesn't look it, is it loli?

What if the character is under 18 but is given watermelon knockers, is that loli?

Marcus Kehoe:
So wait I have a question, are all loli's under 18 or is anyone female with a underdeveloped body a loli?

For example a character that that is said to be over 18 but doesn't look it, is it loli?

What if the character is under 18 but is given watermelon knockers, is that loli?

It's the former. Typically even when someone is said to be thousands of years old, as long as the appearance is that of an underdeveloped girl, it counts as a loli. You can see this in the Disgaea series very easily.

Oh and for the lulz, that girl in the image I posted above, she's a vampire and she's actually hundreds of years old! :P

You are smart in pinpointing a big issue of debate by the way. The fundamentally wrong thing about pedophilia is that children are being taken advantage of and that they can't consent to sex. Not that under-developed bodies having sex is by itself evil. This in turn lends fantasy a realm where you can have a mature consciousness in the body of a child.

Is the adult still off limits because she looks underage? Are you a pedo for liking her as a character and not because she simply looks like a little girl, just because her body is that of one? Those are all much larger questions than the ones posed in the OP and you touched on all of them a bit with your query. :D

Furthermore, what about her?

Let's take the above vampire girl for example, she's doomed to live in the body of a child for eternity. Does she not deserve love? Are we going to say that sick perversion is the sole form of affection she is to ever be met with? Well, thankfully the manga answers our questions for us and with a kinder, albeit maybe a bit troubling no. In that story, it's more about who she is than what she looks like, even when she transforms into an adult. She actually does have the power to temporarily become a full-size woman, it's mainly used for fighting and she can't maintain it for long and she's still the same. The very first time she does it you notice how nothing about her is really different and that her body being that of a little girl or of an adult woman with D-size breasts is completely irrelavant to liking or disliking her.

This is how I really see Loli stuff to be honest, I either like the char or I don't, whether it's loli or not doesn't really matter.

JoJo:
I'm probably gonna get some flak for this but in my opinion, anyone who finds a "loli" character sexually attractive is a bona-fide pedophile. I don't buy that someone could be attracted to characters who closely resemble young girls but not actually be attracted to them in real life, I suspect what they really mean is that privately they are into both but for legal/moral reasons they only go after the cartoon ones.

Note: this isn't including the use of the word "loli" as a general slang for little girl.

I feel the exact same way.
I think if my boyfriend was into this kind of thing, that would be kind of it (also I would vomit up my entire spine).
I would normally say `If thats what you like, fair enough`, but in this case I can't really say that. It grosses me out, I think its wrong. Thats kind of just how it is.
EDIT: Also aren't you not supposed to make topics on this subject? Or am I confusing that?

Phasmal:

JoJo:
I'm probably gonna get some flak for this but in my opinion, anyone who finds a "loli" character sexually attractive is a bona-fide pedophile. I don't buy that someone could be attracted to characters who closely resemble young girls but not actually be attracted to them in real life, I suspect what they really mean is that privately they are into both but for legal/moral reasons they only go after the cartoon ones.

Note: this isn't including the use of the word "loli" as a general slang for little girl.

I feel the exact same way.
I think if my boyfriend was into this kind of thing, that would be kind of it (also I would vomit up my entire spine).
I would normally say `If thats what you like, fair enough`, but in this case I can't really say that. It grosses me out, I think its wrong. Thats kind of just how it is.
EDIT: Also aren't you not supposed to make topics on this subject? Or am I confusing that?

If your boyfriend was a pedo, assuming you're older than 14, he wouldn't be your boyfriend cause you'd be too old, so I doubt you run that risk lol. Vomiting an entire spine...now you gave me a fighting game move idea lol.

Oh and I think we're not supposed to talk about pedophilia, this thread is about anime culture. Sure, a fraction of it has to do with pedophilia too but it's a much larger scale discussion. It would be like saying we can't talk about the police because they catch a lot of pedophiles. :P

Dreiko:

If your boyfriend was a pedo, assuming you're older than 14, he wouldn't be your boyfriend cause you'd be too old, so I doubt you run that risk lol. Vomiting an entire spine...now you gave me a fighting game move idea lol.

Oh and I think we're not supposed to talk about pedophilia, this thread is about anime culture. Sure, a fraction of it has to do with pedophilia too but it's a much larger scale discussion. It would be like saying we can't talk about the police because they catch a lot of pedophiles. :P

Well as you say, some people think it's not peadophilia to like this kind of stuff.
(And I am a month younger than him, the cradle-snatcher!)

But it does make me wonder about people who like this, and their partners (if they have them).

I was just unsure where the `line` is in this kind of conversation.

Phasmal:

Well as you say, some people think it's not peadophilia to like this kind of stuff.
(And I am a month younger than him, the cradle-snatcher!)

But it does make me wonder about people who like this, and their partners (if they have them).

I was just unsure where the `line` is in this kind of conversation.

There actually is a sect of Japanese people who completely write off anything real (they call it 3D) and only care for anime characters, to those I'd maybe consider it since they truly don't actually find any real people attractive and only like the anime/manga characters. Now, the chances of someone like that having sprouted in our neck of the woods, those are microscopic enough to be negligible.

As for dealing with them, I have met a few people a few notches above creepy in my time as a serious anime culture fan lol. I think as long as you trust that someone is a good person and love them and stuff, you kind of accept that they can't really control what they "like" and just stay there for them.

I am very suprised that the escapist's "pedo and proud" squad hasn't jumped all over this yet.

Anyone that's so easily influenced by something like that and actually acts upon those urges, apparently having such lack of self-control, are clearly insane and/or have had poor upbringings/lack of supervision from their parents, so it's the fault of the person themselves, not whatever they've been playing/watching.

Sometimes I watch BDSM videos staged to look as if the woman's getting raped. You can form your own opinions as to whether or not I'm some kind of sicko for that, but whatever, I don't care. Is that going to make me go out and rape some girl? No, because I understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

As for whether or not lolicon and paedophilia can be related...I'd have to say yes, but perhaps not in all cases. I guess it depends, really.

By the way, as aforementioned, there is a distinct difference between paedophilia and child molester, but also that paedophila denotes an -exclusive- sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Not to mention that a child molester isn't always necessarily a paedophile; like rape (including man-on-man rape by a heterosexual male), some just do it for the power and humiliation.

NeutralDrow:

Edit: Also, "Pants" is proper English for underwear. It's a British thing.

Exactly, it's British. Everyone knows they can't speak proper English, even them. That's why they started mocking and deriding American English in the 18th century while simultaneously borrowing every second term they came across.

...that is a joke, yes. I don't hold anything against British English except for their heinous crime against etymology called "aluminium." In any case, the point stands: if an American anime fan went to Japan and asked about "hentai," the result would be roughly the same as a Japanese person going into an American store and asking where to find "pants" (they'd just have better luck in the UK).

Just as an aside, blame chemical naming conventions for that. Aluminum was the original name suggested by the discoverer, but the scientific community at the time insisted on it ending in '-ium', so aluminium it is. Aluminum just sounds silly, anyway.

OT: It's hard to say, really. I guess you could make the old 'I know the difference between fantasy and reality' argument here, and as it's an animation, no-one's getting hurt in the making of it. However, that still doesn't detract from the somewhat dubious nature of what lolicon actually depicts. I certainly wouldn't identify as one, although I'm definitely not much of a manga or anime fan, so I guess that's a moot point.

I have a question to raise as well.......... what about Shotacon? Wouldn't that term fall under the same controversy as Lolicon?

OT: personally I have no issue with lolicon, either sexual Lolicon or regular "cute-girl" Lolicon. I feel that just because you can get off sexually to this doesn't make you disgusting or a monster.... if it leads you to go after "loli" girls in real life... thats a major issue and you should be put in prison as soon as possible, but keeping it within the realms of hentai? Do as you wish with your free time and fantasies.

Edit: as for the Aluminium comments above... ever since I did Chem in grade 9 its now a habit to correct everyone who pronounces is as "um' at the end instead of "ium" just because of how its spelled, that is all

Loop Stricken:

Revnak:
I think there's a pretty simple way to summarize the whole issue, it's fucking disgusting. Get your small breasted short tsunderes out of my anime already. I find them completely unattractive. I prefer my women with disproportionately large breasts and annoyingly happy all the time. These kinks that are not mine disgust me.

But tiny tyrannical tsunderes are the best! How dare your kinks conflict with my own! Heads will roll for this outrage!

Bah I say! Bah! I shall never give in to the fandom's filthy obsession! My first love shall always be the happy go lucky woman, no matter what tortures you use on me! Go ahead and try! The pain will merely strengthen my resolve and my outrageous boner!

I have a question to raise as well.......... what about Shotacon? Wouldn't that term fall under the same controversy as Lolicon?

If it were as widely-emphasised, maybe. I get the feeling a lot of the people who find lolicon disgusting would conversely find shotacon just silly.

kyuzo3567:
Edit: as for the Aluminium comments above... ever since I did Chem in grade 9 its now a habit to correct everyone who pronounces is as "um' at the end instead of "ium" just because of how its spelled, that is all

Melon Hunter:

NeutralDrow:

Edit: Also, "Pants" is proper English for underwear. It's a British thing.

Exactly, it's British. Everyone knows they can't speak proper English, even them. That's why they started mocking and deriding American English in the 18th century while simultaneously borrowing every second term they came across.

...that is a joke, yes. I don't hold anything against British English except for their heinous crime against etymology called "aluminium." In any case, the point stands: if an American anime fan went to Japan and asked about "hentai," the result would be roughly the same as a Japanese person going into an American store and asking where to find "pants" (they'd just have better luck in the UK).

Just as an aside, blame chemical naming conventions for that. Aluminum was the original name suggested by the discoverer, but the scientific community at the time insisted on it ending in '-ium', so aluminium it is. Aluminum just sounds silly, anyway.

I'm well aware, and it's not even that. The only basis the scientific community gave for the -ium ending was because it sounded "more classical." I'm surprised they didn't try to retroactively change molybdenum or platinum, or that any latin speakers listening didn't pointed cough and start talking loudly about "plumbum" and "aurum." Considering what the name was derived from (alumina), the change made as much sense as trying to change the name "triceratops" to "tricerasaurus" because other dinosaurs have that suffix in their names.

As for the silliness...eh, matter of opinion. Aluminium sounds sillier to me because of the extra syllable, and the fact that you have to emphasize the first syllable. Schwas have a respected and well-established place in the language.

Revnak:

Loop Stricken:

Revnak:
I think there's a pretty simple way to summarize the whole issue, it's fucking disgusting. Get your small breasted short tsunderes out of my anime already. I find them completely unattractive. I prefer my women with disproportionately large breasts and annoyingly happy all the time. These kinks that are not mine disgust me.

But tiny tyrannical tsunderes are the best! How dare your kinks conflict with my own! Heads will roll for this outrage!

Bah I say! Bah! I shall never give in to the fandom's filthy obsession! My first love shall always be the happy go lucky woman, no matter what tortures you use on me! Go ahead and try! The pain will merely strengthen my resolve and my outrageous boner!

Am I the only one who prefers the calm, modestly-dressed, yet large-breasted ones? Sakura Matou and Aoi Sakuraba are goddesses... >_>

Whether it's right or wrong is sort of subject to debate; One could argue that these "loli" characters don't actually have an age, they are cartoons after all.

NeutralDrow:

Am I the only one who prefers the calm, modestly-dressed, yet large-breasted ones? Sakura Matou and Aoi Sakuraba are goddesses... >_>

I don't care what size her breasts are honestly, I like some flat and some extra bouncy girls just the same. It just has to be a good character, that's all.

Take Nami from One Piece for example, I just love her, she's full of awesome traits, her bust is awesome too. On the other end of the spectrum, we have Shinobu from bake/nisemonogatari, she's about as devious, completely child-like and eats doughnuts like it's nobody's business, she's awesome too! :D

While I can understand the love for cute things, the obsession with loli's is always going to be a negative stereotype. No amount of reasoning is going to make you less creepy. Age as a defense is also a laughable one. "But their age isnt specified!" or "She's a witch so she's actually like 500 years old so its ok!". I find these funny because they never address the fact that your still sexually attracted to someone with the body of a little girl.

BlindTom:
I am very suprised that the escapist's "pedo and proud" squad hasn't jumped all over this yet.

Thats a thing? oh dear :C

Don Savik:
While I can understand the love for cute things, the obsession with loli's is always going to be a negative stereotype. No amount of reasoning is going to make you less creepy. Age as a defense is also a laughable one. "But their age isnt specified!" or "She's a witch so she's actually like 500 years old so its ok!". I find these funny because they never address the fact that your still sexually attracted to someone with the body of a little girl.

I think while sending some off-putting messages at times, it is worthwhile to ponder a few things.

Like, lets say your adult girlfriend who you love somehow transforms into a little girl. Are you suddenly a pedo for loving her now? If you were to be more attracted to her you would be, sure, but if nothing really changes between you two because you love her for who she is and not for the body she has then I don't think jumping the gun would be justified. A lot of these loli stories are about seeing people for who they are rather than for how they appear, it's the same with same-sex relationships too, you love that person even if the magical panda cursed him and turned him into a girl, that sorta thing. Obviously there are some who use this as an excuse to provide somewhat-pedophilic titillation but this I say here is not the whole picture. Not by a long shot.

Again, this is all fantasy and stuff, it allows us to explore the realm of the impossible, that's why I called the loli a mythical creature with some elements inspired by reality, like a dragon or a harpy. As long as you are able to tell fantasy from reality I don't see anything that stigmatizing about it.

JoJo:
I'm probably gonna get some flak for this but in my opinion, anyone who finds a "loli" character sexually attractive is a bona-fide pedophile. I don't buy that someone could be attracted to characters who closely resemble young girls but not actually be attracted to them in real life, I suspect what they really mean is that privately they are into both but for legal/moral reasons they only go after the cartoon ones.

Note: this isn't including the use of the word "loli" as a general slang for little girl.

Well, maybe if loli would be really a photorealistic depiction of little girls you would have a point there. In anime/manga drawing style however there mostly isn't much difference between a child, a teen or an adult besides body size. That and many people can differentiate between drawings and reality.

I personally can't say i'm particullary grossed out by loli and in real life so far i've been only sexually adracted to people close to my age.

In the end you are drawing the same generalizations as the crowd who depicts gamers as violent killers just because they play fps games.

Beyond just the style, there's also the expressions. If you draw a child with an adult expression the viewer is getting mixed signals while real children can't naturally produce adult expressions.

 Pages 1 2 3 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked