England Jails Homophobes

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Three Muslim extremists who handed out leaflets calling for homosexuals to be hanged, stoned and burned to death have been jailed.

The group handed out the material in the street as well as posting it through letterboxes in a hate-filled campaign calling for the execution of gay people who they claimed were at the root of society's problems.

Ihjaz Ali, Kabir Ahmed and Razwan Javed are the first to be prosecuted under new laws against inciting hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation. Ali was jailed for two years and Ahmed and Javed for 15 months each.

In sentencing the men, Judge John Burgess, Recorder of Derby, told them:

'You have been convicted of intending to stir up hatred.

'It follows that your intention was to do great harm in a peaceful community.''Much has been said during the course of this trial about freedom of expression, and the freedom to preach strongly held beliefs; beliefs, which may have some foundation in scripture.

'Freedom of speech is a cornerstone of democracy and a basic ingredient of any free society. Parliament clearly had this very much in mind when this legislation was passed.'

Last month the trio were found guilty at Derby Crown Court. Residents had told of how the three fundamentalists wanted to transform their small area of Derby into a 'medieval state' under Sharia law.

Anyone who dared to question their extreme agenda was branded an 'M15 agent' or a 'sell-out,' they said.

During the trial, the court heard how the group's activities intimidated residents and left gay people frightened to walk on the streets.

The first, entitled 'Death penalty?' proclaimed that 'Allah permits the destruction' of gay people and that 'the only question is how it should be carried out'. The second, entitled 'Turn or Burn', featured a burning figure in a blazing lake of fire and warned that the decriminalization of homosexuality was 'the root of all problems'.

image

From:http://www.crucibleofterror.org/
From:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099397/Muslim-fanatics-called-execution-gays-wanted-set-medieval-state-Sharia-law-Derby-jailed.html

The irony is hilarious. Sadly, this has martyr written all over it.

to be honest you could remove the "homosexual" part and replace it with ANY group of people and they still would have been arrested

also I fail to see any irony in this... if say a group of homosexuals had hanged, stoned or burned to death these guys then it would be ironic... but them going to jail for saying people should kill gays isn't

I feel that "homophob" is a bit of an understatment to call someone calling publicity to murder someone else in the most violent way due to their sexual oriantation.

Liquidacid23:
to be honest you could remove the "homosexual" part and replace it with ANY group of people and they still would have been arrested

also I fail to see any irony in this... if say a group of homosexuals had hanged, stoned or burned to death these guys then it would be ironic... but them going to jail for saying people should kill gays isn't

The irony is in the general context of people being jailed for campaigning against something they say should be criminal.

Caligulas.dog:
I feel that "homophob" is a bit of an understatment to call someone calling publicity to murder someone else in the most violent way due to their sexual oriantation.

Maybe "insane and potentially violent homophobes" would fit better, but for the sake of a reasonably sized title, you'll have to forgive me ;P

I was expecting just "someone said they didn't approve of a gay person and they were hauled off by cops" and was all prepared with a "this is over-reacting" speech but this?

Yeah, I'm fully okay with these hateful pricks being in jail. You can't just call for a group of people to be violently murdered and expect to not catch shit for saying that openly and in public.

ReservoirAngel:
I was expecting just "someone said they didn't approve of a gay person and they were hauled off by cops" and was all prepared with a "this is over-reacting" speech but this?

Yeah, I'm fully okay with these hateful pricks being in jail. You can't just call for a group of people to be violently murdered and expect to not catch shit for saying that openly and in public.

I'm actually not sure how okay with it I am. Obviously these guys are massive assholes, but they were campaigning for gay people to be legally executed, not for them to be murdered in the streets--the latter of which is inciting violence, the former more... a dick move, lol.

I don't care that they are in jail per se, but I dunno if it oversteps the boundaries a little.

Wishing death on someone for whatever reason is a view best kept to yourself. I support freedom of speech, and that includes negative views on homosexuals, but asking (nay, telling) them to be killed is not something that can be tolerated in a modern, civil country.

Yeah, I have no problem with this.
These people are actively campaigning for the deaths of people cause they don't agree with who they love. This kind of shit has no place in our society.

BathorysGraveland:
Wishing death on someone for whatever reason is a view best kept to yourself. I support freedom of speech, and that includes negative views on homosexuals, but asking (nay, telling) them to be killed is not something that can be tolerated in a modern, civil country.

If you really look at it, there is a, in my opinion, strong argument to not jail them over this. If they were inciting people to murder gay people, they need to be removed from society. But in this case they seem to have been campaigning for gay people to be executed under the law, and that would be as defensible as campaigning for, say, rapists to be executed.

The guys are wankers, of that I have no doubt, lol. But I'm not too keen on going down a road of "don't upset people".

Phasmal:
Yeah, I have no problem with this.
These people are actively campaigning for the deaths of people cause they don't agree with who they love. This kind of shit has no place in our society.

I think my post above also refers to your comment well.

I don't disagree with you fully, so to speak. But there is a fine line and this one is tricky.

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
Yeah, I have no problem with this.
These people are actively campaigning for the deaths of people cause they don't agree with who they love. This kind of shit has no place in our society.

I think my post above also refers to your comment well.

I don't disagree with you fully, so to speak. But there is a fine line and this one is tricky.

The very thing you posted says they intimidated people and left gay people afraid to walk the street.
I have no problem with these people being in jail, this was more than just `dont upset people`.

BathorysGraveland:
Wishing death on someone for whatever reason is a view best kept to yourself. I support freedom of speech, and that includes negative views on homosexuals, but asking (nay, telling) them to be killed is not something that can be tolerated in a modern, civil country.

Lots of people in my country talk about the death penalty being restored for mass murderers, pedophiles, etc. Should they go to jail?

It really depends on the actual fliers. Was it a campaign to make being gay a capital offense? If so, its super dumb, but it's free speech.

If on the other hand it was worded to incite people to take murder into their own hands, well that deserves a long long prison term.

Grey Day for Elcia:
If you really look at it, there is a, in my opinion, strong argument to not jail them over this. If they were inciting people to murder gay people, they need to be removed from society. But in this case they seem to have been campaigning for gay people to be executed under the law, and that would be as defensible as campaigning for, say, rapists to be executed.

Hmm, now you mention it, I think you may have a valid point there. Voicing ones opinion that a new law should be made, no matter how extreme, is a freedom we all should have. In the end, it's up to the authorities and people in charge to determine whether such a law passes or not, so there isn't a whole lot of harm there. Merely requesting a new law to be constructed or pondered is something I can definitely support, but there is a problem regardless: homosexuals are afraid to leave their homes. They may very well believe the campaigners would seek to incite non-legal measures against them as well, and that is something I don't support. You know what I mean?

Phasmal:

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
Yeah, I have no problem with this.
These people are actively campaigning for the deaths of people cause they don't agree with who they love. This kind of shit has no place in our society.

I think my post above also refers to your comment well.

I don't disagree with you fully, so to speak. But there is a fine line and this one is tricky.

The very thing you posted says they intimidated people and left gay people afraid to walk the street.
I have no problem with these people being in jail, this was more than just `dont upset people`.

Gay people were scared by them. It doesn't say they went out of their way to intimidate or ever threaten a homosexual.

People are scared and intimidated by a lot. I know a man who is terrified (and I mean absolutely scared shitless) by any dog at all. I don't think people who walk their dog should be held responsible for him being scared. I know these two things are vastly different circumstances; I am talking only of the intimidation and fear people felt.

I feel that although these guys are huge pricks, we would all be singing a different tune--at least a more 'meh, I don't care' one--if they were campaigning for the legal execution of a more hated group, like paedohpiles and child molesters. I just wonder how okay it is for us to begin deciding who can and cannot speak their mind, on the basis that some people will dislike it, or what the moral majority feels okay with. It seems to be at least on the utter most border of a slippery slope. Careful treading required, lol.

Kendarik:

BathorysGraveland:
Wishing death on someone for whatever reason is a view best kept to yourself. I support freedom of speech, and that includes negative views on homosexuals, but asking (nay, telling) them to be killed is not something that can be tolerated in a modern, civil country.

Lots of people in my country talk about the death penalty being restored for mass murderers, pedophiles, etc. Should they go to jail?

It really depends on the actual fliers. Was it a campaign to make being gay a capital offense? If so, its super dumb, but it's free speech.

If on the other hand it was worded to incite people to take murder into their own hands, well that deserves a long long prison term.

BathorysGraveland:

Grey Day for Elcia:
If you really look at it, there is a, in my opinion, strong argument to not jail them over this. If they were inciting people to murder gay people, they need to be removed from society. But in this case they seem to have been campaigning for gay people to be executed under the law, and that would be as defensible as campaigning for, say, rapists to be executed.

Hmm, now you mention it, I think you may have a valid point there. Voicing ones opinion that a new law should be made, no matter how extreme, is a freedom we all should have. In the end, it's up to the authorities and people in charge to determine whether such a law passes or not, so there isn't a whole lot of harm there. Merely requesting a new law to be constructed or pondered is something I can definitely support, but there is a problem regardless: homosexuals are afraid to leave their homes. They may very well believe the campaigners would seek to incite non-legal measures against them as well, and that is something I don't support. You know what I mean?

I think you, Bath, would find the above quoted post to be relevant. I mean, I'm sure people asking for child molesters to be given a death sentence would make molesters scared to leave their home, lol.

It would be so much easier if they WERE actually inciting violence on the streets, lol.

Kendarik:
Lots of people in my country talk about the death penalty being restored for mass murderers, pedophiles, etc. Should they go to jail?

I understand that, and no they shouldn't be punished for voicing such views. However, if they were to say that everyone should grab a bat and beat the paedophile who lives down the street to death, then yes, I believe they should definitely be punished.

Considering they were pretty much distributing death threats, I think they deserve to go to jail. No matter what group they were threatening, it would still be inexcusable.

You right to freedom ends when it hurts someone else.

Grey Day for Elcia:
Gay people were scared by them. It doesn't say they went out of their way to intimidate or ever threaten a homosexual.

People are scared and intimidated by a lot. I know a man who is terrified (and I mean absolutely scared shitless) by any dog at all. I don't think people who walk their dog should be held responsible for him being scared. I know these two things are vastly different circumstances; I am talking only of the intimidation and fear people felt.

I feel that although these guys are huge pricks, we would all be singing a different tune--at least a more 'meh, I don't care' one--if they were campaigning for the legal execution of a more hated group, like paedohpiles and child molesters. I just wonder how okay it is for us to begin deciding who can and cannot speak their mind, on the basis that some people will dislike it, or what the moral majority feels okay with. It seems to be at least on the utter most border of a slippery slope. Careful treading required, lol.

Paedophiles and child molesters have generally commited a crime. Gay people have commited no crime. I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion. Sexual orientation is protected under the same basis.

Also, I would imagine dogs aren't distributing leaflets about how they want this guy to be tortured.

They were not campaigning to change the law at all, or they would have actually tried to change the law.

This is hate speech pure and simple. I am completely unconflicted about this.

BathorysGraveland:

Kendarik:
Lots of people in my country talk about the death penalty being restored for mass murderers, pedophiles, etc. Should they go to jail?

I understand that, and no they shouldn't be punished for voicing such views. However, if they were to say that everyone should grab a bat and beat the paedophile who lives down the street to death, then yes, I believe they should definitely be punished.

I think we are in agreement.

If they were requesting a law be made, they are idiots, but not criminals and they should have gone about it better. They don't HAVE to go about it better, but they really should have.

If they were requesting street level violence on gay people, they are idiots and criminals. And assholes.

Grey Day for Elcia:
I think you, Bath, would find the above quoted post to be relevant.

I read it and agree completely. It makes perfect sense now that you've explained it. Someone could say they are a massive fan of gore horror films and state that he think they should be even more extreme. Someone could then be afraid of him afterwards, thinking he is sick for liking them so much and that he could murder someone soon in mimicry of the films. He would certainly not deserve to be punished for stating his views on a genre of film.

So yeah, perfect sense.

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Nooooo. I am simply saying that hate speech (which this was) is not protected and you can be prosecuted for it.
That is what the law is.
It's not my moral law, its the law law.

Inciting hatred against a group (such as gays) is against the law. If a bunch of guys were doing this (and if you read it clearly they certainly were), they shouldn't act suprised when they go to jail.

Phasmal:

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Nooooo. I am simply saying that hate speech (which this was) is not protected and you can be prosecuted for it.
That is what the law is.
It's not my moral law, its the law law.

Inciting hatred against a group (such as gays) is against the law. If a bunch of guys were doing this (and if you read it clearly they certainly were), they shouldn't act suprised when they go to jail.

Inciting hatred against a sexual orientation is only illegal in the UK and only has been for about a month. Inciting VIOLENCE is illegal in more places.

At the end of the day, these guys didn't actually incite violence and they weren't convicted if that; they were convicted of spreading hate. I think that's pretty fucked up. I have no doubt in my mind at all that someone leaving leaflets about how horrible rapists are wouldn't be punished, because it's 'okay' to hate them. I have no doubt at all that spreading hatred against neo-nazis and the KKK would be unpunished. It's 'okay' to hate them, it seems. The idiots here are being jailed because they spoke out against a group that it's 'not okay' to hate on. Outlawing hate is just not on. There are plenty of groups to hate and that's plenty okay. I think hating homosexuals is absolutely one of the dumbest things you could do, but my opinion isn't fact and I'm sure a KKK member would think hating them is idiotic.

It's a double standard in my eyes and a miscaridge of justice.

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Ya this case does not really have all that much to do with free speech. If you read any of the articles on it they were clearly inciting hatred and using intimidation tactics on people. They were not just campaigning for a law to be made. They were inciting violence against gays which is illegal.

Grey Day for Elcia:
Sniiiiiiiiip.

Well, like I said before, rapists have commited a crime.
Homosexuals have not commited a crime.

Either way is a sort of fucked up vigilantism (which I think is also not legal).
I'm not saying you can't feel conflicted, but I don't.
It is quite clear they were calling for specific violence (and also, I cant find where it says they were calling for it legally, they just said they reckon their guy is cool with it) against a group who have done nothing wrong.

These guys knew exactly what they were doing, and I don't feel sorry for them at all. You can if you want but its probably a waste of time.

Das Boot:

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Ya this case does not really have all that much to do with free speech. If you read any of the articles on it they were clearly inciting hatred and using intimidation tactics on people. They were not just campaigning for a law to be made.

People were intimidated by them. They didn't intimidate people.

It's the same difference between making it illegal to walk your dog because someone people are terrified of dogs, and someone throwing a dog on someone who is scared of them.

You don't have the right to not be offended and you don't have the right to make laws to keep things that scare you away from you in public.

This law is very new and only exists in the UK. I don't see it lasting long.

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Free Speech does not protect you from consequences. Time people start to learn that. There are laws against "hate speech" or "incitement to crime" in about every country which values human rights.

Grey Day for Elcia:
People were intimidated by them. They didn't intimidate people.

They did. Calling out that they have the RIGHT to kill you because of your sexual preferences is intimading a group.

"The first, entitled 'Death penalty?' proclaimed that 'Allah permits the destruction' of gay people and that 'the only question is how it should be carried out'."

Phasmal:

Grey Day for Elcia:
Sniiiiiiiiip.

Well, like I said before, rapists have commited a crime.
Homosexuals have not commited a crime.

Either way is a sort of fucked up vigilantism (which I think is also not legal).
I'm not saying you can't feel conflicted, but I don't.
It is quite clear they were calling for specific violence (and also, I cant find where it says they were calling for it legally, they just said they reckon their guy is cool with it) against a group who have done nothing wrong.

These guys knew exactly what they were doing, and I don't feel sorry for them at all. You can if you want but its probably a waste of time.

I guess we will leave it there. In my eyes, they did nothing wrong. In yours and that judges, they did.

Such is the way of us human beings. Curse our differences :P

TheKasp:

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Free Speech does not protect you from consequences. Time people start to learn that. There are laws against "hate speech" or "incitement to crime" in about every country which values human rights.

So much this.

These guys were not meekly trying to change a law, they were intimidating and calling for the hanging, stoning and burning of people on the basis they didnt agree with their sex life.
That. Is. Not. Okay.

Grey Day for Elcia:

You don't have the right to not be offended and you don't have the right to make laws to keep things that scare you away from you in public.

This law is very new and only exists in the UK. I don't see it lasting long.

Actually its not really a new law its an old law that has been amended. Previously it was only illegal to incite violence against people based on race or religion. They changed it so it now also covers sexual orientation.

Also this has nothing to do with people being offended. Your trying to make this case about something that it isnt because you either didnt read the dam article, were to stupid to understand it, or you just want to have an argument.

There is no grey area in this case if you actually bother to read about what they were doing.

TheKasp:

Grey Day for Elcia:

Phasmal:
I would be behind them being in prison if they were putting around leaflets calling for the `legal` death of any race/religion.

You are trying to make an argument against free speech there. There is nothing wrong with wanting a law to be made, even if it asks for the death penalty. Just because YOU dislike the death penalty (as do I), doesn't mean it's not okay for others to want it.

You are walking down the path of making your own moral law. That's bad. That's what countries that KILL gay people have.

Free Speech does not protect you from consequences. Time people start to learn that. There are laws against "hate speech" or "incitement to crime" in about every country which values human rights.

If you read the post, they didn't incite crime. They were campaigning for a law to be made for homosexuals to be legally given a death sentence. That's the exact same as campaigning for murderers to be given longer times in prison. It's not a hate crime legally, they were convicted for "inciting hatred". That's the fucked part.

If you support their conviction, you cannot ever again wish paedophiles be imprisoned or vocally oppose their kind; that's hate, being a paedophile isn't illegal, it's a sexual orientation (a fucked up one >_>) and they haven't harmed anyone. Saying hateful things against them is the exact same as saying hateful things against homosexuals. Just that one deserves it and the other doesn't >_>

I think these guys are huge douche bags and I could't care less about them, really. I just feel it is a very dangerous and, quite frankly, pretty fucked uop road to go down if we wanna start locking people up for vocally hating people they think deserve it. You wanna head down a path that could arguably lead to it being a hate crime to hand out leaflets railing a politician or rapist?

Basically: these guys suck, sucked in to them. Maybe not a great idea to imprison them.

Das Boot:

Grey Day for Elcia:

You don't have the right to not be offended and you don't have the right to make laws to keep things that scare you away from you in public.

This law is very new and only exists in the UK. I don't see it lasting long.

Actually its not really a new law its an old law that has been amended. Previously it was only illegal to incite violence against people based on race or religion. They changed it so it now also covers sexual orientation.

Also this has nothing to do with people being offended. Your trying to make this case about something that it isnt because you either didnt read the dam article, were to stupid to understand it, or you just want to have an argument.

There is no grey area in this case if you actually bother to read about what they were doing.

Woah, woah, woah. Is there any need to start calling people "too damn stupid"? We are all having very civil discussions here.

Also, you called me stupid and misspelled "too". That's kind of funny, lol.

Grey Day for Elcia:
Woah, woah, woah. Is there any need to start calling people "too damn stupid"? We are all having very civil discussions here.

Also, you called me stupid and misspelled "too". That's kind of funny, lol.

I can take it that your failure to actually address any of my points is because you know I am right then?

Grey Day for Elcia:
snip

You are wrong.

"The first, entitled 'Death penalty?' proclaimed that 'Allah permits the destruction' of gay people and that 'the only question is how it should be carried out'.

The second, entitled 'Turn or Burn', featured a burning figure in a blazing lake of fire and warned that the decriminalisation of homosexuality was 'the root of all problems'."

No word of "laws for executions of homosexuals". They just wanted to get people to kill homosexuals on the basis of their religion and giving them the fault for everything. The same way it worked with jews about all of christian history.

Basically you have no clue what you're talking about.

Also to your funny "example". I don't think pedophiles should be imprisoned just because they are pedophiles. I think people should be imprisoned because they did commit a crime = molest a child / abuse a child. Also: Just beind a pedophile is NOT illegal. Commiting pedophile acts is. Another thing where you are simply wrong.

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