You know, it's something that has been crossing my mind for a while now, surely others have been thinking the same thing. It's been a hot topic in 2012, some government, whether state/provincial or even national intends to push a new bill regarding the internet that threatens to violate our constitutional rights. Left and right, each day it seems like it's something new that some dickhead politicians are trying to push, for good or bad intentions.
I posted in a thread yesterday saying I honestly wouldn't feel bad if some politicians were killed off to make a point, maybe not the best idea even though I still wouldn't object to it. But I've been thinking that there should be a massive protest scheduled.
The SOHPA protests had a lot of participants and got a lot of attention, and to a reasonable degree it did have some success. SOHPA died, but SOHPA it soon turned out wasn't the problem, our governments are the problem. Surprise surprise.
They appear to hold a superficial respect for our constitutional rights and freedoms, they generally won't try to touch established grounds and precedents, it would be political suicide, but they seem to have no qualms about tackling grey areas. Even if those grey areas are effectively and morally correlated to our rights that they remind to have respect for.
Most of our constitutional rights and freedoms are born from wise men who knew the dangers of a corrupt government, and that corruption always goes hand in hand with power, power that our governments certainly have. These absolute laws are put in place to protect us and inhibit corruption of government.
I think it would be a great idea to celebrate our constitutional freedoms and reiterate to our governments why they are important and that we will not tolerate our constitution to be sullied by their misdeeds. It seems cliche, but I think it's really important to do. You can send letters to your MP or whatever, and that's cool, but unconcentrated efforts rare have any impact, strength in numbers.
Here in the UK we had Poll Tax riots many moons ago and something was done to change that. Since then other taxes and cuts have come around and people just can't be bothered to protest them anymore.
Yeah we've had small protests about things but nothing as big as the poll tax one. Nothing big enough to warrant a change anyway.
Riots don't count, we have lots of them in UK and they usually boil down to "our football club sucks, lets smash up the town".
If your talking something on a global scale then that is, sadly, just wishful thinking.
There are many things I dislike about what our government has or is doing but what do I do about it?
Fuck all. I go for a beer down my local and whine about it with the rest of the folks in there, then we get on with our lives.
And this is why governments are like this. They mirror the public, which is their purpose, people don't give a shit and we get governments who don't give a shit. Protests are good at pressing single issues, but I have never seen a protest getting a party in power reviewing their whole ideology. What needs to happen is people taking the time to overview the parties they vote for, not being afraid to not vote for the most popular ones.
In most of the democratic world I think the blame lies with the people.
thats because if i protested everything the government did that was stupid (which is pretty much everything the government does) i wouldnt have enough time to eat, sleep or go to school so youve got to pick youre battles to were you protest big issues and let some smaller annoyances slide
although i have to admit that the whole poll tax thing slipped me by, my target of annoyance for a long time has been how stupid VAT is in england
And this is why governments are like this. They mirror the public, which is their purpose, people don't give a shit and we get governments who don't give a shit. Protests are good at pressing single issues, but I have never seen a protest getting a party in power reviewing their whole ideology. What needs to happen is people taking the time to overview the parties they vote for, not being afraid to not vote for the most popular ones.
In most of the democratic world I think the blame lies with the people.
I completely agree.
I'll use the UK again (mainly because I have very little clue what goes on in the rest of the world so can't comment).
People are blaming the Tories for a lot of the problems we are having at the moment, we are having a lot of "cuts".
However it was us (not me, I still vote Labour) who voted them into power.
If people stood for what they wanted and not for whoever fed them the most bullshit we would have things a bit better than they are at the minute.
Regnes: Most of our constitutional rights and freedoms are born from wise men who knew the dangers of a corrupt government, and that corruption always goes hand in hand with power, power that our governments certainly have. These absolute laws are put in place to protect us and inhibit corruption of government.
I think it would be a great idea to celebrate our constitutional freedoms and reiterate to our governments why they are important and that we will not tolerate our constitution to be sullied by their misdeeds. It seems cliche, but I think it's really important to do. You can send letters to your MP or whatever, and that's cool, but unconcentrated efforts rare have any impact, strength in numbers.
Yet you also have wealthy plutocrats and religious fundamentalists who use a malevolent interpretation of US constitution to uphold cruelty and oppression, to invest huge amounts in political candidates and call it something like "corporate free speech", to challenge evolution with creation science.
Like many others, the US system is rigged. Ordinary Americans cannot trust the constitution to uphold their rights. They couldn't trust it to stop the PATRIOT act. They can't trust it to stop further infringements upon their freedoms.
In the UK, we have a shitty two (and a half) party system which fails to deliver any sort of choice or principled leaders. The first past the post voting method doesn't help. Still, people are not motivated to stop voting labour or conservative. They should have thought outside the big two/three a long time ago. If people are determined to get rid of these out of touch idiots, they have a golden opportunity to oust all of them at the ballot box. If the electorate woke up, UKIP, The Green Party, and (God forbid) Respect could topple Lib Lab Con over the next few general elections. People need to turn their anger and dissatisfaction with the system into a ballot box revolution.
The problem I see I the lack of will power, protests always work the first time, then we get some alternative bill that is done under the table. It sucks really, I think Euroland Greymane had it right, "Both tell you how to live your life, I guess I'd rather hear it from a local nord than from some emporer down south."
The thing is we can mostly run ourselves, but the governments treat us like idiots. I don't hate our government to the bone, but it does need improvement
That's a really bad idea. I'm all for people in their own nation protesting their own nation's problems (though whether or not protesting actually achieves anything is another matter), but assuming that the problems are the same all over and that people should therefore complain about the same things...no, that's not a good idea.
thats because if i protested everything the government did that was stupid (which is pretty much everything the government does) i wouldnt have enough time to eat, sleep or go to school so youve got to pick youre battles to were you protest big issues and let some smaller annoyances slide
You are the reason we have this problem. You and people like you.
You take a hyperbolic statement, 'everything the government does is stupid', and pretend that it's true because it lets you justify not taking action.
the goverment CAN only do what we allow them to do... so all your problems with the government should really be with yourself for allowing it to happen
you should be protesting against the stupid and lazy masses of citizens that let the government do the things you don't like
"Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" - Winston Churchill
Fact is everyone thinks they could do a better job then the ones who do it but this is rarely, if ever, the case in a modern developed nation.
At the end of the day two things stop anyone in charge every being the perfect leader we want: 1) People are morons: MIB stuff, the person is smart etc. in a collective group we change our minds and dick around more then chimps at the zoo. 2) Power Corrupts: All power, all the time, any person.
All you can do is work hard for whats yours and look after your own family and friends. Selfish? Absolutely but I'll take honest selfishness before all the flimsy justifications and half-baked crap that comes before 'The Revolution'.
And this is why governments are like this. They mirror the public, which is their purpose, people don't give a shit and we get governments who don't give a shit. Protests are good at pressing single issues, but I have never seen a protest getting a party in power reviewing their whole ideology. What needs to happen is people taking the time to overview the parties they vote for, not being afraid to not vote for the most popular ones.
In most of the democratic world I think the blame lies with the people.
I completely agree.
I'll use the UK again (mainly because I have very little clue what goes on in the rest of the world so can't comment).
People are blaming the Tories for a lot of the problems we are having at the moment, we are having a lot of "cuts".
However it was us (not me, I still vote Labour) who voted them into power.
If people stood for what they wanted and not for whoever fed them the most bullshit we would have things a bit better than they are at the minute.
thats a simplification of the custerf*ck that was the election time. Between students naively believing lib dem dream policies and the back room deals that got mr brown into the office there were plenty of reasons to not vote either of those in. (and anybody who votes ukip/bnp is silly)
This topic has actually inspired me to look into politics in Britain a little more, and I've decided I'm actually going to pay attention to who I'm voting for in the next election.
I'm goin' to vote for the Green party, simply because I refuse to vote for the main three that have been ass raping our country over and over for the past several years.
It's time for a change ladies and gentlemen! Lets give someone new a shot at ruining England!
Well I think its certainly in order, but the problem is its not practical.
Criticism without a constructive undertone is little more than complaining. So given that the problems of every country can be wildly different, a blanket world wide protest would only be an aimless, directionless catch all protest that would basically accomplish nothing. (sort of like Occupy Wallstreet)
What has to happen is that the nature of people has to change. People need to take responsibility for their actions as well as responsibility for the effects of their actions on others. People need to actually participate in their governmental processes to ensure it doesnt become an ineffectual representative government.
And beyond all of that, if your not willing to do the work to make certain the government works in the manner in which it was intended, then protesting is not going to do any good unless you can somehow come up with a methodology that DOES work, and compensates for peoples lethargy.
Im all for revolution. Too many of our governmental systems are broken and corrupt, but unless you can offer an idea that will work better to eliminate what allowed the existing system to become broken and corrupt, then theres not really a lot of point to revolt.
Eh, are we really in such a bad position? The average guy in the UK has by far a more comfortable life than any given generation of average guys before them. Sure, we have problems, but for the moment I'm quite content with the way things are. I mean, so what if the government is so corrupt and terrible, who am I to think that I or anyone else could really do a better job of it? Trying to unite a nation of people to all agree on the same thing is a damned impossible job (case in point: every civil war, ever). I wouldn't wish a job of nation leadership on anyone. It's an absolutely thankless task that you are going to fuck up. So there's not really that much point in fighting for our 'freedoms', we're hardly serfs now, are we?
thats a simplification of the custerf*ck that was the election time. Between students naively believing lib dem dream policies and the back room deals that got mr brown into the office there were plenty of reasons to not vote either of those in. (and anybody who votes ukip/bnp is silly)
And there was the problem.
As you say, it was a complete clusterfuck.
All that crap with Brown had just come out so Labour were "disgraced" so to speak, the Lib Dems have always had issues and we all know what the Tories are like.
Options were severely limited. People were angry at Labour and voted Tory/Lib Dem (some without thinking) while some of us still voted Labour because, well, better the devil you know.
Only other option for me would be BNP and they are a comedy show (funny story, the Burnley branch had a party and hired a DJ. When the DJ turned up it was a black fella. The person that hired him said "well he sounded white on the phone" ... I did laugh when that got out).
I demand someone bring a voodoo priest over and resurrect Screaming Lord Sutch. I would quite happily vote Monster Raving Looney Party.
Just protesting governments in general will accomplish nothing. What will it tell them really? Presumably they think they're doing a good enough job or have the right idea. Just saying that you don't like what they do in general doesn't give them a direction to improve in really.
And I'm not a pony fanatic or anything, but it made me think of this:
thats because if i protested everything the government did that was stupid (which is pretty much everything the government does) i wouldnt have enough time to eat, sleep or go to school so youve got to pick youre battles to were you protest big issues and let some smaller annoyances slide
You are the reason we have this problem. You and people like you.
You take a hyperbolic statement, 'everything the government does is stupid', and pretend that it's true because it lets you justify not taking action.
Hyperbole: exaggeration for effect.
Exaggeration.
Not truth.
1. i didnt say "everything the goverment does is stupid" but "most of what it does is stupid" which is about right in my opinion (others think differently because right and wrong is subject to opinion)
2. i dont use it as en excuse not to take action instead i pick my battles and complain on serious issues but let minor problems slide because i dont have the time of day to fight against every bad decision the government takes. (like i said in my comment)
Yes, but it's not going to happen. The number of people who would actually do it is a fairly small number. That fairly small number either wouldn't gain any recognition at all, or more likely they'd earn passive agressive jabs from the news media. This would paint their cause in a negative light, which most of the populace would see them as, and then the movement would die out without any public support.
I definitely believe the systems of several of the world's governments should be shifted up, but there's no way it's going to happen.
Audacity: QUICK EVERYONE! Go outside with signs to show you are unhappy with the current situation.
Change is only ever achieved in blood. If you're not willing to bleed for it why even raise your voice?
Basically this. The majority of people today don't even care enough to do anything, let alone something that might inconvenience them. You can slowly take away all their rights and they will just sit there being apathetic until it's all over.
Audacity: QUICK EVERYONE! Go outside with signs to show you are unhappy with the current situation.
Change is only ever achieved in blood. If you're not willing to bleed for it why even raise your voice?
Basically this. The majority of people today don't even care enough to do anything, let alone something that might inconvenience them. You can slowly take away all their rights and they will just sit there being apathetic until it's all over.
Or go on a forum and bitch and moan about it thinking that's how change comes now lol.
Off Topic: I still want to March down to Bioware here in the city and sit outside with a sign that says "I Am Displeased" and when asked just say "I got a message to be here at this time with a sign."
Why bother? If you're truly unhappy at the way your government runs things, then get into it. You can try to tear at the government from the outside, but that's like trying to tear down a brick wall while a mason builds it. In the end, he knows how to build it far better than you know how to destroy it, so the only thing you're going to accomplish is setting a precedent for your generation to follow and make yourselves all worthless.
OR
You can just wait. The last generation is in control of the government now, one day our generation will be in control. Then you can do whatever the hell you want, and the next generation will hate us for it. This happens every time, the new generation thinks they're smarter than the last and try to push them out as fast as possible instead of waiting their turn.
You'll get your day in the limelight, just give it time.
Audacity: QUICK EVERYONE! Go outside with signs to show you are unhappy with the current situation.
Change is only ever achieved in blood. If you're not willing to bleed for it why even raise your voice?
Basically this. The majority of people today don't even care enough to do anything, let alone something that might inconvenience them. You can slowly take away all their rights and they will just sit there being apathetic until it's all over.
Or go on a forum and bitch and moan about it thinking that's how change comes now lol.
Off Topic: I still want to March down to Bioware here in the city and sit outside with a sign that says "I Am Displeased" and when asked just say "I got a message to be here at this time with a sign."
Yeah a lot of people who protest things aren't even informed about what they are protesting. They are just joiners that want to hang around with everyone and act like they are doing some kind of activism.
I don't see how you could have an international protest that celebrated our constitional freedoms, seeing as how countries like Britain don't actually have a constitution.
Basically this. The majority of people today don't even care enough to do anything, let alone something that might inconvenience them. You can slowly take away all their rights and they will just sit there being apathetic until it's all over.
Or go on a forum and bitch and moan about it thinking that's how change comes now lol.
Off Topic: I still want to March down to Bioware here in the city and sit outside with a sign that says "I Am Displeased" and when asked just say "I got a message to be here at this time with a sign."
Yeah a lot of people who protest things aren't even informed about what they are protesting. They are just joiners that want to hang around with everyone and act like they are doing some kind of activism.
It's the main reason I hate the internet. I am willing to shed blood on the things I believe in. People on the internet think that just jumping on a band wagon with a sign that says "STOP CORPORATE GREED!" or something makes their resolve as strong as mine. Until you find something you are both willing to kill for and die for, you won't really know what devotion to cause is.
Appleshampoo: This topic has actually inspired me to look into politics in Britain a little more, and I've decided I'm actually going to pay attention to who I'm voting for in the next election.
I'm goin' to vote for the Green party, simply because I refuse to vote for the main three that have been ass raping our country over and over for the past several years.
It's time for a change ladies and gentlemen! Lets give someone new a shot at ruining England!
Move to Scotland where we've already kicked out 2 of the big 3 (Lib Dems and Tories) and actually have a viable alternative (SNP)!
Or go on a forum and bitch and moan about it thinking that's how change comes now lol.
Off Topic: I still want to March down to Bioware here in the city and sit outside with a sign that says "I Am Displeased" and when asked just say "I got a message to be here at this time with a sign."
Yeah a lot of people who protest things aren't even informed about what they are protesting. They are just joiners that want to hang around with everyone and act like they are doing some kind of activism.
It's the main reason I hate the internet. I am willing to shed blood on the things I believe in. People on the internet think that just jumping on a band wagon with a sign that says "STOP CORPORATE GREED!" or something makes their resolve as strong as mine. Until you find something you are both willing to kill for and die for, you won't really know what devotion to cause is.
Well I am not really willing to kill to affect a change in government at the moment but that is also because I am very much against killing in just about any situation. That doesn't mean I can't help in ways that don't involve being responsible for ending a life. I get your point though.
Yeah a lot of people who protest things aren't even informed about what they are protesting. They are just joiners that want to hang around with everyone and act like they are doing some kind of activism.
It's the main reason I hate the internet. I am willing to shed blood on the things I believe in. People on the internet think that just jumping on a band wagon with a sign that says "STOP CORPORATE GREED!" or something makes their resolve as strong as mine. Until you find something you are both willing to kill for and die for, you won't really know what devotion to cause is.
Well I am not really willing to kill to affect a change in government at the moment but that is also because I am very much against killing in just about any situation. That doesn't mean I can't help in ways that don't involve being responsible for ending a life. I get your point though.
Government is of no concern to me. But try and take MY personal freedom away. You'll see how dangerous and resourceful I can be. It'll be like Law Abiding Citizen. Only not as clever and with more toxic fumes lol.
It's the main reason I hate the internet. I am willing to shed blood on the things I believe in. People on the internet think that just jumping on a band wagon with a sign that says "STOP CORPORATE GREED!" or something makes their resolve as strong as mine. Until you find something you are both willing to kill for and die for, you won't really know what devotion to cause is.
Well I am not really willing to kill to affect a change in government at the moment but that is also because I am very much against killing in just about any situation. That doesn't mean I can't help in ways that don't involve being responsible for ending a life. I get your point though.
Government is of no concern to me. But try and take MY personal freedom away. You'll see how dangerous and resourceful I can be. It'll be like Law Abiding Citizen. Only not as clever and with more toxic fumes lol.
Oh, well yeah. I am all about personal liberty and I'd totally be willing to die to defend it, definitely. I am not a fan of sacrificing any liberty for security.
Government is of no concern to me. But try and take MY personal freedom away. You'll see how dangerous and resourceful I can be. It'll be like Law Abiding Citizen. Only not as clever and with more toxic fumes lol.
Oh, well yeah. I am all about personal liberty and I'd totally be willing to die to defend it, definitely. I am not a fan of sacrificing any liberty for security.
Exactly. You can only be pushed so far before you push back sort of thing. We all have our breaking points.
Good luck getting a unified message that isn't "Blarg gubberments be evil". If the "Occupy Wall Street" movement can't even get its shit together, do you honestly expect everybody over the world could?
Everybody wants different things. Some want reform. Others just want anarchy. So you wouldn't be able to put up a unified front, and it just becomes several different groups of malcontents.
Regnes: Most of our constitutional rights and freedoms are born from wise men who knew the dangers of a corrupt government, and that corruption always goes hand in hand with power, power that our governments certainly have. These absolute laws are put in place to protect us and inhibit corruption of government.
I think it would be a great idea to celebrate our constitutional freedoms and reiterate to our governments why they are important and that we will not tolerate our constitution to be sullied by their misdeeds. It seems cliche, but I think it's really important to do. You can send letters to your MP or whatever, and that's cool, but unconcentrated efforts rare have any impact, strength in numbers.
Yet you also have wealthy plutocrats and religious fundamentalists who use a malevolent interpretation of US constitution to uphold cruelty and oppression, to invest huge amounts in political candidates and call it something like "corporate free speech", to challenge evolution with creation science.
Like many others, the US system is rigged. Ordinary Americans cannot trust the constitution to uphold their rights. They couldn't trust it to stop the PATRIOT act. They can't trust it to stop further infringements upon their freedoms.
In the UK, we have a shitty two (and a half) party system which fails to deliver any sort of choice or principled leaders. The first past the post voting method doesn't help. Still, people are not motivated to stop voting labour or conservative. They should have thought outside the big two/three a long time ago. If people are determined to get rid of these out of touch idiots, they have a golden opportunity to oust all of them at the ballot box. If the electorate woke up, UKIP, The Green Party, and (God forbid) Respect could topple Lib Lab Con over the next few general elections. People need to turn their anger and dissatisfaction with the system into a ballot box revolution.
See, we had this thing a while a go were the voting system would change to Preferential voting, so other parties could get more power, whatever happened to that?
Oh that's right, we voted against it, by like 89% against. Good job UK citizens.
You know, it's something that has been crossing my mind for a while now, surely others have been thinking the same thing. It's been a hot topic in 2012, some government, whether state/provincial or even national intends to push a new bill regarding the internet that threatens to violate our constitutional rights. Left and right, each day it seems like it's something new that some dickhead politicians are trying to push, for good or bad intentions.
I posted in a thread yesterday saying I honestly wouldn't feel bad if some politicians were killed off to make a point, maybe not the best idea even though I still wouldn't object to it. But I've been thinking that there should be a massive protest scheduled.
The SOHPA protests had a lot of participants and got a lot of attention, and to a reasonable degree it did have some success. SOHPA died, but SOHPA it soon turned out wasn't the problem, our governments are the problem. Surprise surprise.
They appear to hold a superficial respect for our constitutional rights and freedoms, they generally won't try to touch established grounds and precedents, it would be political suicide, but they seem to have no qualms about tackling grey areas. Even if those grey areas are effectively and morally correlated to our rights that they remind to have respect for.
Most of our constitutional rights and freedoms are born from wise men who knew the dangers of a corrupt government, and that corruption always goes hand in hand with power, power that our governments certainly have. These absolute laws are put in place to protect us and inhibit corruption of government.
I think it would be a great idea to celebrate our constitutional freedoms and reiterate to our governments why they are important and that we will not tolerate our constitution to be sullied by their misdeeds. It seems cliche, but I think it's really important to do. You can send letters to your MP or whatever, and that's cool, but unconcentrated efforts rare have any impact, strength in numbers.