Lovecraft vs. Warhammer!

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Zerstiren:
Aren't we forgetting Michael Moorcock and the Elric universe, the one which sparked inspiration for Dungeons and Dragons and the Warhammer universes?

Arioch: the one who pulls all the strings.

It's true, here he is, preventing me from working on my graphic novel (it's true his name is Arioch-from the Moorcock novels)

image

Lovecraft has elder gods that are larger than the entity of the universe and exist outside of logic or understanding. So yeah, Warhammer can't really top that.

Hal10k:

dyre:
Isn't there a guy in the Lovecraft universe that will end the universe if he ever becomes aware of it? That pretty much trumps everything.

That would be Azathoth, the blind, gibbering idiot god at the center of all creation.

Really, that's the advantage the Lovecraft's creations have over Warhammer's. Warhammer's "gods" are actually rather underpowered. For something so omnipotent, they really don't do a lot of omnipoting. I cite as proof of this the fact that Holy Terra has yet to explode. The Chaos Cultists are really just equivalent to the Star Spawn, who are lightweights by the standards of Lovecraft's racism-fueled imagination. If Azathoth, or even just Yog-Sothoth managed to manifest fully, then the game is over; everything is either dead or betentacled.

The Chaos Gods are only described as 'gods' because what other title could you ascribe to them? To the ordinary human, they appear omnipotent, omniscient, and in the case of Slannesh, omnisexual. However, they do have limits. They didn't create the universe, they merely reside in it.
And, to be fair, Holy Terra has it's own demi-god protecting it.

epic lawls :), too cute.

Da Orky Man:

Hal10k:

dyre:
Isn't there a guy in the Lovecraft universe that will end the universe if he ever becomes aware of it? That pretty much trumps everything.

That would be Azathoth, the blind, gibbering idiot god at the center of all creation.

Really, that's the advantage the Lovecraft's creations have over Warhammer's. Warhammer's "gods" are actually rather underpowered. For something so omnipotent, they really don't do a lot of omnipoting. I cite as proof of this the fact that Holy Terra has yet to explode. The Chaos Cultists are really just equivalent to the Star Spawn, who are lightweights by the standards of Lovecraft's racism-fueled imagination. If Azathoth, or even just Yog-Sothoth managed to manifest fully, then the game is over; everything is either dead or betentacled.

The Chaos Gods are only described as 'gods' because what other title could you ascribe to them? To the ordinary human, they appear omnipotent, omniscient, and in the case of Slannesh, omnisexual. However, they do have limits. They didn't create the universe, they merely reside in it.
And, to be fair, Holy Terra has it's own demi-god protecting it.

no they don't, the emperor is dead, they tell people he's alive to keep chaos on their toes. All those psykers they sacrifice to him, are really there to be a beacon for ships as they travel through the warp. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

Melanie McGreevey:

Da Orky Man:

Hal10k:

That would be Azathoth, the blind, gibbering idiot god at the center of all creation.

Really, that's the advantage the Lovecraft's creations have over Warhammer's. Warhammer's "gods" are actually rather underpowered. For something so omnipotent, they really don't do a lot of omnipoting. I cite as proof of this the fact that Holy Terra has yet to explode. The Chaos Cultists are really just equivalent to the Star Spawn, who are lightweights by the standards of Lovecraft's racism-fueled imagination. If Azathoth, or even just Yog-Sothoth managed to manifest fully, then the game is over; everything is either dead or betentacled.

The Chaos Gods are only described as 'gods' because what other title could you ascribe to them? To the ordinary human, they appear omnipotent, omniscient, and in the case of Slannesh, omnisexual. However, they do have limits. They didn't create the universe, they merely reside in it.
And, to be fair, Holy Terra has it's own demi-god protecting it.

no they don't, the emperor is dead, they tell people he's alive to keep chaos on their toes. All those psykers they sacrifice to him, are really there to be a beacon for ships as they travel through the warp. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

Hey, I'm no Imperialist here, I play Eldar. And occasionally by brother's Tau army. Doesn't it even state in the fluff that the psykers are sacrificed to provide the power anyway, and the Emperor merely guides it?

Da Orky Man:

Melanie McGreevey:

Da Orky Man:

The Chaos Gods are only described as 'gods' because what other title could you ascribe to them? To the ordinary human, they appear omnipotent, omniscient, and in the case of Slannesh, omnisexual. However, they do have limits. They didn't create the universe, they merely reside in it.
And, to be fair, Holy Terra has it's own demi-god protecting it.

no they don't, the emperor is dead, they tell people he's alive to keep chaos on their toes. All those psykers they sacrifice to him, are really there to be a beacon for ships as they travel through the warp. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

Hey, I'm no Imperialist here, I play Eldar. And occasionally by brother's Tau army. Doesn't it even state in the fluff that the psykers are sacrificed to provide the power anyway, and the Emperor merely guides it?

ya ya, even GW lies... they are trying to protect their precious imperium from the crushing force of chaos... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

Melanie McGreevey:

Da Orky Man:

Melanie McGreevey:

no they don't, the emperor is dead, they tell people he's alive to keep chaos on their toes. All those psykers they sacrifice to him, are really there to be a beacon for ships as they travel through the warp. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!!

Hey, I'm no Imperialist here, I play Eldar. And occasionally by brother's Tau army. Doesn't it even state in the fluff that the psykers are sacrificed to provide the power anyway, and the Emperor merely guides it?

ya ya, even GW lies... they are trying to protect their precious imperium from the crushing force of chaos... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!

image

Da Orky Man:

Melanie McGreevey:

Da Orky Man:

Hey, I'm no Imperialist here, I play Eldar. And occasionally by brother's Tau army. Doesn't it even state in the fluff that the psykers are sacrificed to provide the power anyway, and the Emperor merely guides it?

ya ya, even GW lies... they are trying to protect their precious imperium from the crushing force of chaos... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!

image

LMAO.. you made me laugh out loud! LOVE THAT!!!! i can't stop laughing, "milk for the khorne flakes" LMAO

If it was a game of just as planned the Warhammer universe by a mile in my opinion but in an open fight I'd say probably Lovecraft.

imahobbit4062:
Threads like these that make me want to read up on both Lovecraft and Warhammer Lore...except, it's so vast I don't have a fucking clue where to begin.

Well the problem with Warhammer fluff is that it gets retconned so much. Where something might have been the greatest threat in the universe in one codex it suddenly becomes weak in another. Sizes of armies change radically, powers jump around, and nothing ever really happens. I still find the codexs interesting reads in themselves but they are by no means truly concrete. Still if you want to jump in just pick a codex or book up. Doesn't matter where just jump in where ever you feel like it.

Kahunaburger:

Off topic: is Tzeentch Nyarlathotep, or is Nyarlathotep Tzeentch?

Actually Nyarlathotep would probably be closer to Slaanesh than Tzeentch. In Lovecraft Mythos Nyarlathotep was described as being the most similar to mortals in terms of its mindset, it was a being devoted to the corruption and degeneration of humanity much in the same way that Slaanesh does in the Warhammer 40k universe.

Most of the Chaos Gods have a Lovecraftian analogue:

Tzeetch bears the most resemblance to Yog-Sothoth with his 'Thousands of faces and facets' and lacking any definite form.

Slaanesh, as I said, I most similiar to Slaanesh for the reasons above.

Hastur AKA The Unnameable One would probably be similar to Nurgle in terms of personality and action.

Khorne is the only one that doesn't really have a Lovecraftian counterpart, he's visceral war and bloodshed which wasn't really Lovecraft's thing.

You have on one side the entire pantheon of Chaos Gods, vast is their power and armies. On the other, you have a being who, if he so much as becomes aware of something, that thing ceases to exist. It doesn't die, it unbecomes. Yeah...no contest. Azathoth beats anything.

thaluikhain:
40k stuff works on a (supposedly) galactic scale, Lovecraft mostly on a planetary scale.

Cthullu would be the equivalent of a daemon prince, I'd say, and they are nasty, but 40k has lots of them.

On the other hand, even in Lovecraft's work, Cthullu is a celebrity more than a monster, it gets named dropped lots of times, but rarely actually harms anyone.

ScreamingNinja:
Chaos would just twist the LC Gods around their little fingers or use them as pawns for some messed up end game.

True story.

You can't judge the Lovecraft Gods by Cthulhu, he is considered the weak bitch of the Mythos, Azathoth would just become aware of the piss-ant(no offense compared to Azathoth everything is piss-ant) Chaos Gods and they would no longer exist. True story.

captcha: magical realism I don't think any kind realism works with the Lovecraft Mythos.

dyre:
Isn't there a guy in the Lovecraft universe that will end the universe if he ever becomes aware of it? That pretty much trumps everything.

That would be Azathoth, most people here seem to ascribe Azathoth as an analogue to Tzeentch but that's not really accurate. In the Lovecraft mythos Azathoth wasn't even really sentient. He was described by Lovecraft in The Haunter in the Dark: "the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a demonic flute held in nameless paws."

So in terms of the Warhammer Universe Azathoth would more likely be an analogue to the insidious corruption native to the Warp itself or as Chaos Undivided rather than a single Ruinous Power.

thaluikhain:
40k stuff works on a (supposedly) galactic scale, Lovecraft mostly on a planetary scale.

Cthullu would be the equivalent of a daemon prince, I'd say, and they are nasty, but 40k has lots of them.

On the other hand, even in Lovecraft's work, Cthullu is a celebrity more than a monster, it gets named dropped lots of times, but rarely actually harms anyone.

Lovecraft's stories may individually mostly be set on earth, but his Mythos is set on a cosmic, interdimensional or inter-reality (is that a thing) scale. The way Lovecraft wrote is that most of his 'monsters' don't generally make appearances, they're characterised by the fact that just knowledge of them existing is enough to cause harm. Certainly to humans anyway.

The gods in the cthulhu mythos (fun fact, august derleth coined that, lovecraft jokingly called it the Yog Sothothery) are generally split into the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods. The Great Old Ones, like Cthulhu, have a definite location and form and are mostly very powerful beings that view humanity as ants, so you could argue the 40k gods might give them a run for their money, my bet is still on Bokrug to kick some Tzeentch arse though. And Outer Gods, like Yog Sothoth and Azathoth whom do not view humanity at all, because we're so insignificant and I think the 40k universe has nothing on that, so go Yog Sothoth! you are my gate.

Neither. Because Khorne loves war but it doesn't like winning because that means there's no more war. And Tzeentch would manipulate the forces into a stalemate.

Darknacht:

thaluikhain:
40k stuff works on a (supposedly) galactic scale, Lovecraft mostly on a planetary scale.

Cthullu would be the equivalent of a daemon prince, I'd say, and they are nasty, but 40k has lots of them.

On the other hand, even in Lovecraft's work, Cthullu is a celebrity more than a monster, it gets named dropped lots of times, but rarely actually harms anyone.

ScreamingNinja:
Chaos would just twist the LC Gods around their little fingers or use them as pawns for some messed up end game.

True story.

You can't judge the Lovecraft Gods by Cthulhu, he is considered the weak bitch of the Mythos, Azathoth would just become aware of the piss-ant(no offense compared to Azathoth everything is piss-ant) Chaos Gods and they would no longer exist. True story.

captcha: magical realism I don't think any kind realism works with the Lovecraft Mythos.

Or Khorne would just lay waste to his face and make him sad and die. Problem soooolved!

ScreamingNinja:
Or Khorne would just lay waste to his face and make him sad and die. Problem soooolved!

It's cute that you think Azathoth can actually be killed. Or made sad. Or have anything done to him at all.

The thing about Lovecraft was, mortals are not exempt: there is always, ALWAYS something bigger, stronger, and more alien than the last guy. The Chaos Gods are just manifestations of our own baser desires - potent and maddening, to be sure, but still based on what we understand at our most primal levels.

The "Elder Things" of Lovecraft are the complete opposite. They aren't evil per se, they simply don't comprehend such things as morality and mortality. Its presence destroys us the same way our own presence destroys bacteria in our intestines: we aren't aware of it on any level, it's just the way we are.

And anything that can just sweep the galaxy clean with a stray thought like that, removing the source of the Chaos God's essence, has automatically won any battle. The galaxy is emptied and the Chaos Gods dissolve back into nothing.

...Then the Elder Things are themselves consumed by their own "Chaos God" equivalents from the Warp, beings so immeasurably frightening and unnatural that they corrupt the Elder Things. And they themselves are destroyed when something even worse shows up. The cycle goes on. Even death may die.

Well considering that the Dark Gods are physically impossible to kill or truly weaken, and that they are all very good at killing, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

ScreamingNinja:
Or Khorne would just lay waste to his face and make him sad and die. Problem soooolved!

I don't think you understand Azathoth cannot be harmed in any way as soon as something comes in contact with Azathoth, or Azathoth even notices it exists, it no longer exists. Azathoth is an infinite being, an amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity beyond space and time on a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos. He created everything and if he ever becomes aware of it he will destroy it.

How is this even close? Lovecraft, yo. Warhammer has always struck me as juvenile and then some.

For the glory of nurgle, I spread pestilence!!

(my own drawing)

image

Looks a bit skinny for a follower of Nurgle =P

Neither, I just invented my own deity, supermegagohantotallynotazathoth, who exists on so many layers of reality he can do anything, even crush the lovecraftian gods with his pinky, then simultaneously tentacle rape the chaos gods and the Q collective in the space the blink of an eye.

Seriously though, it's hard to compare because the settings are very different, and fictional characters are only bound by the author's constraints, so if anyone does want to create a more serious analogue to my - no pun intended - forementioned monster, then voila, it's as good as made. And honestly, I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around omnipotent beings. If you can do anything, then why not snap your fingers and erase your enemies from existence in a heartbeat? It just raises so many questions, many of which keep me up at night.

I think I'm just going to sit back and watch the fireworks. Hopefully I don't go so insane that I forget that last bullet I saved for myself.

Team Mythos for the win.

To be perfectly honest, the 40K pantheon is rather weak, compared to the products of an imagination fueled by a mixture of Pulp stories, horrific nightmares, hydrophobia and almost hilariously outdated racism, even for its time. There's a core of terrible earnestness in Lovecraft's Mythos, whereas Games Workshop's baby reminds me of myself when I used to obsess over poorly conceived D&D campaigns.

"Oh, um... That Evil God's name is... um... KHORNE! And stuff! And he... um... needs blood! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Yeah! Yeah, that sounds badass. Probably..."

Azatoth and Shub-Niggurath are where it's at.

Also, as someone else has so aptly explained through a nifty 'shop job; Khorne?! That's the dumbest name ever for any god!

Da Orky Man:
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I cannot take that guy seriously. With all due respect, 40K fans, I'll give the Imperium a shot when I won't feel one of your mythological concepts is Cap'n Crunch's long-lost cousin.

Mr.Squishy:
And honestly, I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around omnipotent beings. If you can do anything, then why not snap your fingers and erase your enemies from existence in a heartbeat? It just raises so many questions, many of which keep me up at night.

Thats what Azathoth does, as soon as it knows something exists, it makes it vanish from existence. The only reason it has not blinked everything out of existence is because it does not know that anything else exists.

I really did enjoy reading through this thread, and as a fan of both pantheons, I'd go with Cthulhu and pals. Cthulhu had no real power, he was just an alarm clock for the more powerful gos that the Elder Gods put under. Also, if we're including the entire Cthulhu mythos, I'd like to put forward Ghroth from Campbell: "Ghroth (the Harbinger) resembles a small, rust-colored planet or moon with a single, gigantic red eye which it can close to avoid detection. Ghroth drifts throughout the universe singing its siren song, the Music of the Spheres. As it swings by a planet, any Great Old One or Outer God sleeping there is awakened by the song. This usually results in the extinction of all life on the planet or perhaps even the utter destruction of the planet itself.
Ghroth is believed to be responsible for the periodic mass extinctions that wiped out 90% of all life on earth, including the extinction of the dinosaurs at the end of the Cretaceous era."

I know that he probably doesn't compare to some of the Chaos gods, but the idea of a sentient planet that just floats around ruining people's days makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Abandon4093:
The Chaos Gods would likely walk over the majority of Lovecrafts Deities.... But Azathoth.

I dunno.

What about Abhoth, Source of Uncleanliness and Daoloth, Render of Veils?

The other outer gods need love too :'(

Da Orky Man:
Holy Terra has it's own demi-god protecting it.

isnt the machine god a long slumbering eldar god? god of ignorance and corruption or something like that.

PaganAxe:
Cthulu is relatively weak when compared to Lovecraft's Outer Gods Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth.

Look at this artist's interpretation of Azathoth.
image

When I look at this, I imagine him as unfathomably immense. At the center of all infinity.

HOLEY FUCK BALLS ON SHIT MOUNTAIN!! O.o and I thought the Deep ones where scary. Man...Lovecraft was a radical guy. I love the imagery and visual details from those books. How he leaves so much of it up to the mind of the reader. The horror in our minds will always trump reality.

As for the Chaos gods....they can't really affect reality without a host or something right? I mean why else would they need human's? The Gods in Lovecraft...we are dust under their feet and only exist cause we're not worth the effort to wipe out.

Well.. My own impression is that Warhammer "gods" are very limited, or rather i should say "specialized" creatures. You have "war guy", there's "sick guy" and stuff. Lovecraftian true gods were creatures indistinguishable from the fabric of reality at some level. Their presence only would suffice to distort reality and make the universe bleed. I don't think that WH deities would stand any chances in the typical mano-a-mano with Azathoth. :]

BTW :
In the next edition of WH40k the Ultra-Grey Marine will probably wield enough firepower to singlehandely kick ass of Khorne. Just sayin'...

Darknacht:

ScreamingNinja:
Or Khorne would just lay waste to his face and make him sad and die. Problem soooolved!

I don't think you understand Azathoth cannot be harmed in any way as soon as something comes in contact with Azathoth, or Azathoth even notices it exists, it no longer exists. Azathoth is an infinite being, an amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity beyond space and time on a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos. He created everything and if he ever becomes aware of it he will destroy it.

And yet, Khorne would rip what passes for a face off it, and spit down what is left of what it has as a neck. Winning!

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