Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

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I agree, except it's frustrating to hear "I wish I had a boyfriend like you". No matter what the intention is, it comes across completely different. Like, what's the point in saying it? To make someone feel bad that they don't have the physical attractiveness necessary to date you? Maybe that's a pessimistic outlook, maybe it's meant to be a compliment about their character but honestly, people should stop saying it.

I've been friend zoned a couple times before the asking a girl out, and I've taken it in stride. I have a ton of girls that are friends, girls I'm legitimately not attracted to (just think about girls you know from school, you wouldn't want to get with even half of them, admit it), that if they asked me out, I would say the same thing, yet I value their friendship and I would want someone with their qualities, but hotter (f**k it, I'm vain, okay? haha).

Now, I have had this happen a couple times and I'm not sure why, but I've had girls want to be friends AFTER we've gone out. And I'm not just saying we go out a few times, we've maybe dated a week. This is us never knowing eachother, and then dating for 5 months, and it gets pretty serious. When a girl pulls that move on me, and I've had it happen quite a few times (I can think of 2 but there's maybe a third), THAT pisses me off. On the one hand, you're breaking up with me, yet on the other, you still want to hang out with me and my friends. I'm sorry, but I'm going to want to spend some time away for you for quite a while.

It's a jab to the eyes and a kick in the balls. You're dumping me, and sort of saying "none of that all mattered, I can immediately hang out with you and not really feel bad." The worst part is, they get mad when I say that that's not good enough for me. I've been in too deep (no pun intended), and there's no shallow end; I'm either all in or I'm all out. There's no middle ground once you date someone for quite a while.

I agree with the OP's points, minus "Why can't I find a guy like you" and then "you're just not the kind of guy I'm looking for". There's better ways to put that exact mindset, but I don't think doing it that way is good at all because it doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure how to put it, I've never had those girls I talked about ask me out, but if you're a girl and you're reading this, I'm assuming for most guys, that whole spiel doesn't work.

TL;DR: I agree with the OP on most things, but girls can't date someone for months and then try and pull the "can we just be friends?" bit because it's unfair.

While I too am not one for men who think all girls are smelly cooty-carriers who like shopping and friend-zoning, I think there's validity to both you OP and the concept of the friendzone.

While I agree that guys shouldn't assume that just being nice to a girl means they're in like Flynn, men who see more in their lady-friends than just a friend shouldn't just be judged as shallow and wanting to get into their pants. It's like...getting into different bands, with any new band you listen to a few songs, get to know their style, if you like it maybe you buy an album to listen to a few more of their songs, if this only increases your love then it grows from there, and you can either stop at a point where you like the band and their songs but not enough to become a big fan (this would be akin to just being plain old friends with a girl) or, if you wish, take it further and become a big fan because of how much you enjoy what you've heard of them so far (this is akin to a man starting out as friends with a girl, then trying to further the relationship). The complication that arises is that while a band cannot control how big or small your affection for them grows a woman most certainly can, and while we could go on all day about men reading the signs and getting the signals before taking the plunge and telling someone how they feel to satisfy their desire of furthering the relationship they ultimately don't know what's going to happen until they confess, so the confession is justified.

With that out of the way, in terms of the "friend-zoning" that can follow, while nobody likes giving or receiving dejection I see no wrong in a woman letting a guy-friend she can't see as a potential partner down gently with an affirmation of just wanting to keep their relationship at the level of friendship. And while I think what you were saying about saying "I think you've got the qualities I look for in partners, but you're just without that special something" instead of outright saying "I wouldn't date you because you've got a big nose" is at least satisfying to the guy who'd want to know why instead of being left to draw his own pessimistic conclusions, telling a man he's got all the qualities you like but you're just not attracted to him is objectively a little bit nasty and somewhat confusing, I mean what's to stop them reading that as the woman seeing him as nothing but a conveniently placed friend to call on and no more in their life, or the woman not being attracted to the thought of being seen out in public with them? In a perfect world neither side would have any conflictions in sharing how they really felt about one-another (do we really have to live in a world where men are expected to be the ones who approach women? It takes two to make a relationship, wouldn't it make the most sense for both sides to be free to have an equal hand in making that relationship?)

And with all that out of the way, regarding how men handle this I'll go back to what I said earlier: reacting by declaring that all women are bitches and acting like the woman they asked out spat in their face is just being silly. However, like I said, nobody likes rejection, and we can't just say that all men who ever ask lady-friends out are irrational, lusty and need to suck it up and take it like a man when a lady-friend says no (keeping in mind of course that the woman is also not just irrational, bitchy and not put in a very delicate position). Right up until the moment a man confesses he's probably going through a lot of self-doubt, deep-thought, weighing up the pros and cons, considering the effects a yes or a no would have on the already existing relationship, so obviously when he's knocked back it's not just a simple turn-down for a guy wanting to get laid, he's probably gonna be dissapointed, have his pride shaken, maybe feel like an idiot because of the effect it alone will have and so on. I think both parties can tend to just see through each other without realising that we're all rational, imaginative beings not driven solely by balls or bitchiness.

Then again, what would I know?

It is normal to be sexually attracted to your opposite sex (or some some cases, same sex) friends at some point in the relationship, but that dies not mean that a sexual relationship will be pursued. I really hate it when guys become my friend just to get into my knickers, brrr, it is super super creepy.

To be honest I do not really like nice guys though. I like honest decent guys, and when you are honest and decent, sometimes you have to be the bad guy and do things that are not very nice.

I'm going to add: Any girl who thinks a guy is just being her friend for X years just to bang her is completely insane, and not accepting his advances when he finally musters up the courage to ask you out is the most decent thing you could do. Being with someone with that much narcissism and pessimism will crush any nice guy.

Sorry ladies, I know some (not all, some) of you might only judge yourselves and others by how you look, and what's inbetween your legs... you vapid cunts who're talking about nice guys in an ironic way, doting about alpha males, and who honestly think you can have any man, but just to fill you in on a secret - you can't, and there is more to life than you seem to be capable of understanding or wanting.

I am apparently a "nice guy" and I have experienced the "friend zone" on multiple occasions. I never felt entitled to a relationship, i never thought the woman was a bitch for not wanting to go out with me or anything like that, but at the same time people (male/and female) cant help but form emotional attachments to others, its part of our nature. So, at least for me, when a guy is a "nice guy" to a girl, hes is not always trying to get sex. Often time the man has formed an emotional connection to the woman, and when those feelings are not returned, they feel quite unloved. For the females part, telling a man that you "wish you could find someone like him" does absolutely nothing to help out his emotions, in his mind he is "someone like him", because all the qualities your seeing are ones your seeing in him. This just causes him to question why you wouldn't date him, and that doubt wreaks havoc on his self esteem causing problems in future relationships. So be honest, I'm not saying to tell the guy hes ugly, or something like that, but don't just drop vague lines that leave him feeling inadequate. Tell him what the issue is and you may be surprised to see how quickly he works on the issues. Who knows he may become someone you find your self wanting to be with.

museofdoom:

So you become friends with a female

^^HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO THIS^^

OT: Y'know what no, no OT, I've never even been friends with a girl and I'm in college, guys who get friendzoned can shut the hell up, I'd kill to be friendzoned

Relish in Chaos:
I don't think the "friend zone" even exists. She either likes you, or she doesn't. I understand that's quite a black-and-white outlook, but that's how it is. You never would've had a chance in the first place, so it'd make no difference whether you made a move six weeks ago.

Also, from personal observations, the best way to find a partner is to stop looking. You know, make friends without any ulterior motives, and if you both happen to like each other, then I guess you just...start dating one another.

yeah not always black and white. but I've done that a lot. I make friends first. and about 3 times i made a friend that i ended up liking a lot more than just a friend. the first 2 times they were already in relationships. the third time i went for it after I had known her for a couple months when i started liking her September/mid-November. asked her in December. got rejected. "I have a bad track record with relationships and don't want one for a while, plus I'm working full time and going to college, i don't have the time" was her response. (by February she had a boyfriend.)

I don't want to call myself nice, that just feels wrong. not that it wouldn't be mostly true. I don't break friendships off because I'm in the "friend-zone" but still it feels like a knife to the gut when every I see her. and she doesn't talk to me much any more. I make effort to contact her, we used to talk a lot about every topic under the sun. That's never come so naturally, with her we we're talking like that a week after meeting. but man i don't want to complain, i don't want to get mad at her, but it's hard sometimes, we used to talk about everything happen in our lives... but she never told me about her getting a boyfriend, I had to see them together. She never introduced me when I did, I had to introduce myself to him. and the look he gives me when she doesn't see... man it still hurts. (plus the way she turned me down, it made me feel like she had lied to me. that hurt. i trusted her)

TL:DR it's not black and white, good guys don't make make friends to try and butter up girls, sometimes they just end up caring for them, and by then you just might have blown your shot and your in the friends zone. and a lot of that bitching is just a way to get over it. understand it hurts, people. people don't always handle pain like that well.

stvncpr236:
I am apparently a "nice guy" and I have experienced the "friend zone" on multiple occasions. I never felt entitled to a relationship, i never thought the woman was a bitch for not wanting to go out with me or anything like that, but at the same time people (male/and female) cant help but form emotional attachments to others, its part of our nature. So, at least for me, when a guy is a "nice guy" to a girl, hes is not always trying to get sex. Often time the man has formed an emotional connection to the woman, and when those feelings are not returned, they feel quite unloved. For the females part, telling a man that you "wish you could find someone like him" does absolutely nothing to help out his emotions, in his mind he is "someone like him", because all the qualities your seeing are ones your seeing in him. This just causes him to question why you wouldn't date him, and that doubt wreaks havoc on his self esteem causing problems in future relationships. So be honest, I'm not saying to tell the guy hes ugly, or something like that, but don't just drop vague lines that leave him feeling inadequate. Tell him what the issue is and you may be surprised to see how quickly he works on the issues. Who knows he may become someone you find your self wanting to be with.

to this i hearty agree. if she told me something was wrong with me, something i could change, like managing my schedule to match hers, then i would have worked towards changing it. because to me she would be worth it.

tobyornottoby:
You said "being a controlling, aggressive dickhead is the only way to get girls." Where does the cares/doesn't care come from?

Also, caring, like being nice, is a requisite, not a goal. If all someone can offer to a girl is caring about her, he's coming up short.

What was said in the post you replied to. She's looking for someone with the traits she likes about you. I replied to a post were you were analysing that line to the letter.

There are differences between men and women on average. Knowing and understanding those (and of course, understanding that this is about averages and not about the individual level) will greatly help in matters like these.

It is implied that if you are a controlling dickhead, you don't care about the person you're being a dickhead to.
Learn to read between the lines, please.
The natural conclusion is that attractiveness is directly proportional to how much of a dick you are.
My point was that that was where their disappointment came from, which you completely missed.
Then you came out of nowhere with some line about how the world isn't black and white.

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are nice because they genuinely have a desire to be kind to others.
We really don't have any idea what their intentions are, so it is pure conjecture at this point.

Also, no one claimed that being nice isn't all the the hypothetical friendzoned individual has to offer.
Maybe you see caring and kindness as a requisite, a means to an end, but some people actually want to be nice and see kindness as an end in itself.

She's looking for someone with the particular traits she likes about the individual.
She doesn't want someone like the individual.
The wording is poor and misleading.

There are differences that are immediately visible and statistically provable, such as height or skeletal structure.
Saying that women are less literal, a claim which is at best supported by anecdotal evidence and is not visible or statistically provable, is not acceptable.
Stop pulling random "gender facts" out of your ass.

This is such a meaningless thread.

I'll start off with this, because this post might jump around.

If a girl says she wants someone "just like you" and doesn't date you, she's being shitty.

That being said, I have friend zoned a guy before, a few months ago, actually. He was a "nice guy." I didn't want that. You can't just be nice to a girl, you have to be romantic and make her feel special. All he wanted was to talk and play video games. No kissing. No sex. Why would I want that? He also couldn't communicate his feelings properly (he asked me out in Japanese because he was too nervous to in English.) I could overcome the thought of seeing him without a shirt on made me want to puke, love overshadows that. You get ugly when you get old anyway. I can't overcome everything else. But he was nice, so I did the let's be friends thing, because I did not feel the same way. At all. Would it be better if I led him on and broke his heart after getting his hopes up? I felt like shit doing it.

If the guy is too awkward to act as more than a friend, why ruin a perfectly good friendship to make it a shitty romantic relationship? I've done that twice before. Once it worked out fine, we stayed friends after a small awkward period. The other one had too many feelings involved and I can't ever be just friends with him. Sometimes the risk just shouldn't be taken.

I've been on the other side of the guy who lashes out at being friend zoned. It can be really jarring. You're honest, you don't have feelings and you want to let them down easy because you do value your friendship, but they just act like you are the worst person in the world because you aren't dating them. I know rejection sucks, feel free to wallow in self-pity and not talk to me, but you don't need to moan on Facebook for a week so your bros pity you and try to guilt me into saying yes. That is not how you want someone to say yes.

Oh, and then there's the "because I'm single I'm automatically available" aspect. After I had to call it quits with my high school sweetheart because LDRs suck, I had a guy try to swoop me up and be my prince charming, but I wasn't having it. Ended up dating a clingy friend of mine with low self-esteem.

I can be kind of bubbly, so I worry about accidentally leading guys on. I'm sure I have before and I feel bad for it, but I never would take advantage of a crush for my benefit. That's cruel and no matter how much of a dork a guy can be, he deserves better.

If you were nice to someone just to get into their pants then you aren't exactly a "nice guy" are you?
(toward your example of friend-zoned person)

Your example is alittle extreme and bitter I think. Honestly friend-zoned is just you like someone who thinks of you as a friend. I understand ending the relationship because it might be a bit painful, but it's up to you to decide whether it's worth it. I imagine many times it is worth it. Running away and crying about it is just that, running away and crying.

I get friend zoned all the time, but I'm not bitter or angry about it. I appreciate the female friends I have made and keep looking. The idea that they like and care about me is very important too.

You utterly ignore the difference between "I think I'm in love with her" and "I want to jump her bones." A lot of the pain of being friendzoned comes from the fact that you have come to need that person, want a deeper relationship than "hey we just hang out," yet you can never have that person. To be honest, it hurts. Especially when your "friendship" with this person is in almost every way a deeper relationship than a most sexual (note I refuse to use the term "romantic") relationships. Annother part of the problem is that sometimes one person wants a significant other who is also a friend, but no matter where they turn, no matter how close a friend they become, that other person would rather have exciting relationships that may or may not be entirely impersonal.

TL:DR: you are coming down too hard on a topic you haven't done your homework on. If it happened to you, you'd know it isn't all about sex.

CAPTCHA: The all-new Chevy Sonic

I'm sick and tired of this one. Nobody cares, Chevy. At least, not enough that they want to see it on EVERY website they visit!

Personally its the fun in trying to get the girl for me. I fail miserably, but I have come to enjoy it for the most part. Unlike my creepy old 17-18 year old self.

Xangba:

ElPatron:
And again the Escapist sank in an argument about entitlement.

I thought most "friendzone" posts were supposed to be about girls who repeatedly commit the mistake of dating jerks.

I am talking about people stupid enough to start dating just because a guy paid her a beer while the proverbial "nice guy" is doing her laundry or something.

It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with people too stupid to take a hint.

That was what I thought, didn't realize so many viewed it as the guys problem instead of the standard "She dates ass, gets fucked over, complains about no nice guys" thing.

But hey message out to you guys and gals in the "friend zone," your time will come around, and because you're the kind to be friends first you'll have some of the best relationships. Just can't let a few bumps trip you up.

That's really nice to hear, thank you. It's been a little rough for me personally, and it's always good to hear words of hope, especially ones that aren't cliches.

OT: Just for me personally, it takes me a little while to get interested in a girl. I'm still going to college, there are tons of good looking, smart girls around here. I have to spend time with them to become interested at all. If it doesn't work out, well at least I've met a really interesting person who may or may not want to stick around.

I don't really see the big deal about friend zoning. Unless you've literally been good friends with someone for like 10 years to the point where you feel like they are basically a family member; there is not going to be a magical fucking line where someone becomes undatable. You have as much chance of getting someone to date you having just met them as you have after they have become your 'friend.' If they don't like you that way, then they just don't. So learn to deal, because friendship has nothing to do with it.

AstylahAthrys:

That being said, I have friend zoned a guy before, a few months ago, actually.

AstylahAthrys:
All he wanted was to talk and play video games. No kissing. No sex.

Uhhhh you sure you friend-zoned him? Because it sounds like he friend-zoned you.

Nemesis729:

museofdoom:

So you become friends with a female

^^HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO THIS^^

OT: Y'know what no, no OT, I've never even been friends with a girl and I'm in college, guys who get friendzoned can shut the hell up, I'd kill to be friendzoned

Coming from a straight male virgin who has had more female friends than male friends: It's pretty fucking easy. You do it the exact same way you make any friend. Talk to them, hang out, enjoy the same things. And no, finding them sexually attractive does not preclude you from being their friend; you just have to either have the self control to not be creepy, or just not give enough of a shit about having sex with them.

Mycroft Holmes:

AstylahAthrys:

That being said, I have friend zoned a guy before, a few months ago, actually.

AstylahAthrys:
All he wanted was to talk and play video games. No kissing. No sex.

Uhhhh you sure you friend-zoned him? Because it sounds like he friend-zoned you.

I wish he had. That would have saved a lot of drama. He begged and pleaded me to take me out on a date, but I knew he was not physically affectionate because I am friends with his ex, who just broke up with him for that very reason. I got showered with plenty of pretty words, but it didn't change I thought he was not boyfriend material. He was just a very awkward boy who wanted to hold hands, go to movies and call me his girlfriend. He's 18, I'm 20, so maybe he'll grow up. And start talking about things other than Bleach and Naruto and moving to Japan (the greatest country ever according to him) and video games. I may love me some video games, but I'm also an adult. The fact we both love Skyrim will only go so far.

Eamar:
Takes all sorts to make a world and all that. But yes, this isn't exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to find on a gaming forum. I do sometimes wonder how some people find these forums in the first place, but then again that probably makes me guilty of generalising so... yeah :P

It's too easy to start generalizing, that's how our lazy brains are built. Some people probably assume everyone here is a fat, white male shut in their mom's basement.

Anyhow, my original point was that those few women were no better than the "friend-zoned" guys, even worse, perhaps. They're just shallow, where are the men are just bitter and hurt, much easier to sympathize with, if almost as annoying. Not that I'm calling all women shallow bitches or anything. Just a select few. On reflection, it's not like my gender is much better for that, I know too many of my friends that berate me whenever I so much as look at a girl who isn't an "8" or better. And they think they're virgins because of bad luck... LOL.

bluepilot:
I really hate it when guys become my friend just to get into my knickers, brrr, it is super super creepy.

Again operating under the assumption men are emotionless pussy hunters, as flattered as we may be by this Iron-man impression people go on it is only wishful thinking, if only leaving emotion aside was that simple.

If we could do it then friendships wouldn't ever come to mind, when you can simply get a girl drunk and see her inhibitions wash away till you get to hump her leg.
Truth however is that just isn't the real picture, we want to be wanted, we want people to desire us as a full package, add to that the daunting fear of rejection and you get the safe road to meeting people... friendship.
Not saying it's the right approach but the "pussy stalking creeper" idea starting to build up behind these things is just insane.

Hmmm you seemed to have generalised the events leading up to the friend zone status, that or my experience just happened to be a tad different.
I did like a girl and as you put it yourself "You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors."
That is true, that is what I did and the outcome was very similar to what you said... except that when I told her we were both drunk and she said she did have feelings for me in that way, so for a week a was lead to believe that were so, the next time we spoke she informed me she didn't mean it.
I admit, I was a little bit heartbroken when she asked if we could still be friends, rather thank thinking "if I can't get what I want (a relationship, not the "get some action" bullshit you were thinking), then she cant get what she wants" I instead thought "ok,I don't mind being just friends" this was because the last thing I wanted was to lose this person from my life completely. This was my recent experience with friend zones, it happened two years ago and we are still close friends to this day.
This creates my point that not all 'friend zoning' happens like the way you say it does, they are all different, a part of me is glad of the outcome because if we did get into a relationship and it bombed it would have been harder to stay friends. My only argument is towards the "I wish I could find a guy like you" If you're not trying to imply something to that person you shouldn't say it as it can build up hopes that will ultimately be crush.

Tl;DR - Friend zone situations happen differently, girls shouldnt say "I wish I could find a guy like you.

Eternal Taros:
It is implied that if you are a controlling dickhead, you don't care about the person you're being a dickhead to.
Learn to read between the lines, please.
The natural conclusion is that attractiveness is directly proportional to how much of a dick you are.

Or maybe both 'being a dickhead' and 'being attractive' both come from the same source, 'being assertive and confident' but are not necessarily correlated.

Eternal Taros:
I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are nice because they genuinely have a desire to be kind to others.
We really don't have any idea what their intentions are, so it is pure conjecture at this point.

Sorry I didn't mean it that way, what I'm saying is that being nice is not enough. You can be smart, funny, good-looking, sharing hobbies or views, all those things will attract people to each other. A woman can be attracted to a man who's good looking. She can be head over heals for an 'ugly' man who's very smart. But you don't just fall in love with someone simply because they're nice.

Eternal Taros:
Also, no one claimed that being nice isn't all the the hypothetical friendzoned individual has to offer.

Some of those "Nice Guy" rants do. "They are nice, they do not get the girl, that's unfair."

Eternal Taros:
Maybe you see caring and kindness as a requisite, a means to an end, but some people actually want to be nice and see kindness as an end in itself.

Certainly. As I said a while ago in the thread:
If you want someone to hate you, be mean to them.
If you want someone to be friends with you, be nice to them.
If you want someone to love you, be romantic to them.

If you are nice to a girl and she wants to be friends with you, that's exactly what you asked for. And yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. Being nice to people and men and women being friends are beautiful things.

But men shouldn't complain they're being nice but the other doesn't love them back. If they want B, act B. Don't act A and complain you're not getting B.

Eternal Taros:
There are differences that are immediately visible and statistically provable, such as height or skeletal structure.
Saying that women are less literal, a claim which is at best supported by anecdotal evidence and is not visible or statistically provable, is not acceptable.
Stop pulling random "gender facts" out of your ass.

There have been many books written on the subject. (The following are all generalisations and do NOT apply to every individual)

When a woman says "You never take out the garbage and you always keep your dirty clothes lying around" she doesn't literally mean 'never' and 'always' (rather as poetic embellishments), although men will interpret it as such, leading to pointless arguments.
When a woman asks "does this make me look fat" she doesn't want a yes or no answer. She wants to hear you find her beautiful.
When a woman talks about her problems, chances are she doesn't want to hear solutions but just a listening ear.
When a woman asks "Are you hungry? We can pull over to stop somewhere", chances are she is hungry herself, so you just saying "no" and carrying on will be interpreted as insensitive. Women are more likely to ask things indirectly.

Evidence, provability? These are everyday problems, happening all the time.

tobyornottoby:

Or maybe both 'being a dickhead' and 'being attractive' both come from the same source, 'being assertive and confident' but are not necessarily correlated.

I'd be inclined to argue that 'geing a dickhead' more likely comes from the source of 'not being very confident'. You know, act tough when you're second-guessing yourself and you can easily try too hard.

Sorry I didn't mean it that way, what I'm saying is that being nice is not enough. You can be smart, funny, good-looking, sharing hobbies or views, all those things will attract people to each other. A woman can be attracted to a man who's good looking. She can be head over heals for an 'ugly' man who's very smart. But you don't just fall in love with someone simply because they're nice.

I doubt that any one trait is sufficient, really. I mean, for falling in love. For wanting to have sex, the trait of 'having a cock and not looking like a complete slob' is often quite enough for a woman. Similarly for a man.

Certainly. As I said a while ago in the thread:
If you want someone to hate you, be mean to them.
If you want someone to be friends with you, be nice to them.
If you want someone to love you, be romantic to them.

If you are nice to a girl and she wants to be friends with you, that's exactly what you asked for. And there's nothing wrong with that. Being nice to people and men and women being friends are beautiful things.

But men shouldn't complain they're being nice but the other doesn't love them back. If they want B, act B. Don't act A and complain you're not getting B.

That simple, is it? Every woman will just fall head over heels for you if you inviter her for a candle-lit dinner? I think the only pretty much guaranteed outcome is he mean/hate one, but even there we have exceptions. And well, I daresay most romantic things are also nice, and the line is often blurred.

imahobbit4062:
I'd agree with the whole "Just because you're nice doesn't entitle you to a relationship with them"
However, the friend I had feelings for, hooked up with me (while she was completely sober mind you) months after we became friends, then when I confessed my feelings for her I was instantly friend zoned.
Now that was bullshit.

That happened to me so much in high school. I'm fine with being just friends but make it clear from the off you aren't interested don't lead me on _
It's also really annoying, [true story alert], when a girl tells you she has feelings for you, then goes off with her dickhead druggy boyfriend and then blames you when he abuses her. As if it's my fault she makes bad decisions or something? Sadly, nice guys do finish last, speaking from experience of being a nice guy.

At any rate it doesn't affect me these days, I have a girlfriend of just over 3 years so I don't really care about girls not liking me. =p

...
Nice guys should finish last anyway (;

Vegosiux:
I'd be inclined to argue that 'geing a dickhead' more likely comes from the source of 'not being very confident'. You know, act tough when you're second-guessing yourself and you can easily try too hard.

That might be true. Reminds me of the Dog Wisperer, where it's about calm assertive behavior, versus insecure aggressive dogs.

So we would have assertive confident guys as the holy grail for girls, assertive insecure guys as the 'bad bfs', shy confident guys ending up just fine, and shy insecure guys posting "Nice Guy" rants?

Vegosiux:
I doubt that any one trait is sufficient, really. I mean, for falling in love.

Certainly, I oversimplified it there. I used those other exampled to show that being nice is not the holy grail.

Vegosiux:
That simple, is it? Every woman will just fall head over heels for you if you inviter her for a candle-lit dinner? I think the only pretty much guaranteed outcome is he mean/hate one, but even there we have exceptions. And well, I daresay most romantic things are also nice, and the line is often blurred.

Of course it's not guaranteed. Just like how "If you want to pass an exam, study" doesn't mean that studying guarantees passing. Just that studying will improve your changes of passing more than playing games would.

Cow is an animal, animal isn't a cow. Sure romantic things are nice. Nice things don't have to be romantic.

Also, what I find quite fascinating, is how some romantic things aren't actually nice. Like Simba pulling Nala in the water in the Lion King. Playfully annoying/teasing people.

MrGseff:

Tl;DR - Friend zone situations happen differently, girls shouldnt say "I wish I could find a guy like you.

My reply to that line was always "But I am a guy like me!" and then it'd end up losing a friend because of the application of cold logic.

Such is life.

Just a few thouoghts about the lines we women use to turn people down, because I've seen quite a few guys in this thread who don't seem to understand them (which may well be understandable- you're not mind-readers):

"Let's just be friends" - means you're not a stranger (you wouldn't say this to some randomer in a bar), but she has no romantic interest in you. If you really are friends when you ask her out, then she really does want to be friends. If you're not really friends to begin with, more like acquaintances perhaps, then she doesn't mean she wants you to be her best friend overnight. Generally, this phrase has less to do with friendship per se and more to do with wanting your relationship to stay as it is (friends, co-workers, acquaintances, someone who went on a couple of "trial" dates with her, etc etc).

"I just don't think of you in that way" - means just that. There's nothing sinister going on here. She may like a lot of your qualities and enjoy being around you if you're friends, but she doesn't feel any chemistry. The pheromones are off or something. Those of you saying we should come out and say what's "wrong" with you so you can change are missing the point: if it was just one thing like say, smoking, she probably WOULD come out and say it. If you're friends with her you should probably know she doesn't like smokers anyway. Just one example, but whatever. The cold, hard truth is that you can't force chemistry. It doesn't mean she thinks you're ugly, it means that something's off on the most basic level of attraction.

"I don't want a relationship right now" - is sometimes true, sometimes a cop-out. She's trying to let you down gently. It's a classic "it's not you, it's me" line, and she's NOT meaning to lie to you if she ends up with someone else a little while afterwards. Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to find someone you want to be with when you're not actively looking for a relationship. In truth, the explanation probably has more to do with the lack of chemistry mentioned above.

Very few people enjoy turning people down. No genuinely nice person enjoys it. Yes, some of the things women (and men!) say in this situation can seem unsatisfactory to the person being turned down, but do try and consider the other person's point of view. (S)he's been put in a delicate situation, quite possibly been put on the spot, and is trying to say something that will inevitably hurt your feelings ("I don't want a relationship with you"), while at the same time trying to minimise the damage. I've been on both sides of this situation, and both suck.

Eamar:
Just a few thouoghts about the lines we women use to turn people down, because I've seen quite a few guys in this thread who don't seem to understand them (which may well be understandable- you're not mind-readers):

"Let's just be friends" - means you're not a stranger (you wouldn't say this to some randomer in a bar), but she has no romantic interest in you. If you really are friends when you ask her out, then she really does want to be friends. If you're not really friends to begin with, more like acquaintances perhaps, then she doesn't mean she wants you to be her best friend overnight. Generally, this phrase has less to do with friendship per se and more to do with wanting your relationship to stay as it is (friends, co-workers, acquaintances, someone who went on a couple of "trial" dates with her, etc etc).

"I just don't think of you in that way" - means just that. There's nothing sinister going on here. She may like a lot of your qualities and enjoy being around you if you're friends, but she doesn't feel any chemistry. The pheromones are off or something. Those of you saying we should come out and say what's "wrong" with you so you can change are missing the point: if it was just one thing like say, smoking, she probably WOULD come out and say it. If you're friends with her you should probably know she doesn't like smokers anyway. Just one example, but whatever. The cold, hard truth is that you can't force chemistry. It doesn't mean she thinks you're ugly, it means that something's off on the most basic level of attraction.

"I don't want a relationship right now" - is sometimes true, sometimes a cop-out. She's trying to let you down gently. It's a classic "it's not you, it's me" line, and she's NOT meaning to lie to you if she ends up with someone else a little while afterwards. Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to find someone you want to be with when you're not actively looking for a relationship. In truth, the explanation probably has more to do with the lack of chemistry mentioned above.

Very few people enjoy turning people down. No genuinely nice person enjoys it. Yes, some of the things women (and men!) say in this situation can seem unsatisfactory to the person being turned down, but do try and consider the other person's point of view. (S)he's been put in a delicate situation, quite possibly been put on the spot, and is trying to say something that will inevitably hurt your feelings ("I don't want a relationship with you"), while at the same time trying to minimise the damage. I've been on both sides of this situation, and both suck.

Good post. I'd say this is true most of the time with there being exceptions to the rule just like anything else. I've honestly just never had this problem and I truly feel this is something people bring onto themselves more than anything else.

Saviordd1:
image
Seriously, these get annoying.

Self confidence is everything, if a girl is only looking for a super hot dude or a popular one she isn't worth your time ANYWAY.

"Nice guys" want a girlfriend? Grow up, stop being what is essentially sexist and try looking at girls for more then their damned looks.

Self confidence is everything, if a girl is only looking for a super hot dude or a popular one she isn't worth your time ANYWAY.

Self confidence is everything

Self

confidence

everything

You are wrong.

It's obviously might that controls everything.

Confirmation bias is everywhere :D

Eamar:

Very few people enjoy turning people down. No genuinely nice person enjoys it. Yes, some of the things women (and men!) say in this situation can seem unsatisfactory to the person being turned down, but do try and consider the other person's point of view. (S)he's been put in a delicate situation, quite possibly been put on the spot, and is trying to say something that will inevitably hurt your feelings ("I don't want a relationship with you"), while at the same time trying to minimise the damage. I've been on both sides of this situation, and both suck.

A straight answer is usually the one that does minimal damage, people would do well to get that into their skulls. That goes for both genders, in any situation. And by straight, I do not mean blunt. Just clear.

"But I don't want to hurt him/her." Well, you are going to do it regardless, so best be clear and honest about it. Trying to weasel word one's way around the issue will simply leave a degree uncertainty behind, and that's always going to bite someone in the ass. If it's unavoidable, at least make it clean so that it doesn't fester.

Vegosiux:

A straight answer is usually the one that does minimal damage. That goes for both genders, in any situation. And by straight, I do not mean blunt. Just clear.

"But I don't want to hurt him/her." Well, you are going to, so best be clear and honest about it. Trying to weasel word one's way around the issue will simply leave a degree uncertainty behind, and that's always going to bite someone in the ass.

"I just don't think of you in that way" is about as straight an answer as you can get. It's just that people (of both genders) when confronted with this aren't satisfied. They don't accept that it can be that simple, there has to be something more. There has to be some other reason WHY they don't feel attracted to you. Hell, I've thought like that before now.

My post basically meant that most of the common phrases used boil down to a simple lack of basic attraction (note: not a lack of basic attractiveness, as some people seem to think). It's harsh but it's true.

To be honest though, while you're right that a straight answer is usually the best one, I defy you to remain so logical when someone you genuinely care for, hell, even someone you don't know all that well but who you know to be a decent human being, has feelings you don;t return. I don't know, you may have been able to do that before and avoided the complications of trying to let someone down gently. If you've always managed to do that, you're a stronger person than I am.

"I wish I could find a guy like you"

The reason that so many guys get upset/depressed when they hear those words is because it is a heavy blow against their self-esteem. The only thing they hear in those words are "You are not good enough" and even though that is not what the girl is saying that is what the guy hears.

The feeling of rejection is horrible and if the guy pulls himself away after a rejection it probably to protect himself from more harm than to be an arsehole. And the argument "Get into her pants" is hardly valid because if that is your goal then it was never about love. It was in that case only about sexual need rather than feelings.

My girlfriend of 2+ years was your stereotypical high school friendzone situation. I bought us Taylor Swift tickets for her birthday, and that was our first date. We're now at two different universities in London, and very happy together. Take it from me, persistence can work!

Mr.K.:

bluepilot:
I really hate it when guys become my friend just to get into my knickers, brrr, it is super super creepy.

Again operating under the assumption men are emotionless pussy hunters, as flattered as we may be by this Iron-man impression people go on it is only wishful thinking, if only leaving emotion aside was that simple.

If we could do it then friendships wouldn't ever come to mind, when you can simply get a girl drunk and see her inhibitions wash away till you get to hump her leg.
Truth however is that just isn't the real picture, we want to be wanted, we want people to desire us as a full package, add to that the daunting fear of rejection and you get the safe road to meeting people... friendship.
Not saying it's the right approach but the "pussy stalking creeper" idea starting to build up behind these things is just insane.

I assumed nothing. I am the current only copyright holder of my own opinions so please refrain from putting words into my mouth.

I have no problem per say with "emotionless pussy hunters", as long as they are honest in their intentions.

I cam understand what you are saying about the fear of rejection from relationships and therefore wanting to take the safe path. However, sometimes this inner conflict can give a very negative impression. I know that it is hard for guys to approach girls so I am kind to guys, but after some of the creeps I have met....brrr.....

There was this one guy who really hated women, but I quite liked him anyway because he was funny, but his hatred of women yet desire to pursue a physical relationship with me (the only girl who would talk to him), came into conflict and I got the brunt of it. Yet, he claimed himself to be the, "nice guy". In some ways this is true.

Once you have met a "pussy stalking creeper"......brrrr.....

I've seen guys being friend-zoned. At the same time the girl(s) in question go for the "bad boy" type. The guy who treats them like crap, leaves them with bruises that they need those "wife-beaten sunglasses" to cover, and sleeps with their friends/sisters. (Oh, and they're soooo surprised when the "bad boys" are bad...) Working in retail I see couples like that all the time and it makes me wonder, what does that guy have that my friends didn't? Oh, a woman with no self esteem and no self respect. One thing to remember though, for the guys out there, is that an attractive woman has people being nice to her all the time. It is expected and therefore easily ignored. It's the guys that she has to chase that get her interested.

Have I been friend-zoned myself? I was thinking really hard about how to answer that. I have female friends that i'm in the friend-zone with... but that's because they're really awesome people who are already dating equally awesome people and I never steal. So I guess I have intentionally put myself in the friend-zone on a couple of occassions.

ThePS1Fan:
Please consult this video


Thanks.

Holy crap! Thanks for this. It sums up pretty much everything I try to explain to 'nice guys' who either fall for me or other girls and can't understand why we don't want them.

Doclector:
Y'know what? Although this needs to be said (but has been said many times before) understanding is a two way street. So here it is from the other side.

You're alone. You've been alone for years. Sure, you have friends, maybe a lot of them, but those pesky human impulses want more. Everyone around you has found someone. Everyone keeps saying there's nothing wrong with you, but the evidence for this claim is scarce.

You meet someone. You like her (or him, if you're that way inclined) she seems to like you. Hard to tell, seeming as everyone you ask for advice peddles out useless cliches like "if it's meant to happen, it'll happen" and "someone for everyone". After building up the courage and figuring out how to do it, a hard task for someone with your lack of experience, you admit your feelings, and she doesn't feel the same.

You're heartbroken. Your seemingly anual (or even less frequent) singular chance has came and went, and you don't even know why. You talk to friends sooner or later, because hell, you can't keep this kind of hurt to yourself forever. More cliches, somehow even more useless than before.

Spending time with the person you liked is hard enough. Suspicions run through your mind, or simple excuses not to be there. She doesn't want you there. The very sight of you disgusts her. Even a bad reason for it to have happened is better than no reason at all. Eventually she gets someone else, and it becomes impossible to spend time with her, not because of jealousy necessarily, but you'll be looking at that person and using him as a battering ram against your own self esteem.

Now, what I'm saying here isn't that it's right, or fair, that the supposed "victim" of "the friend zone" does this, abandons what was a friend, but that it's understandable. People forget how hard it is to stay around someone you love that only likes you.

And I know why it happened to me. I know every damn day I look in the mirror and somehow look more of an abomination than the day before. Everyone's shallow, I know that, even I'm shallow a little. You can't lie and say that isn't the reason, because 90% of the time, it is. Now I don't do that to girls anymore. I don't disappear with barely a word. Because I don't ask girls out anymore, because I know there is only one conclusion, that she rejects me, and either I leave her forever, or completely destroy myself by staying. I've accepted the fact that I will never be wanted. I am a horrifying, disgusting creature, and it was always a bit unfair to expect anyone to be attracted to me, but that doesn't make it an easy thing to accept.

So yeah. It's not fair or right that this "friendzone" effect exists, but it does, because you just don't stop wanting someone because they don't want them back. Quoted because I'm interested to know what you think.

Honestly, this was me for a bit, but I tell you what, when you hang around 'that girl' long enough, you become more attractive. Wanna know why? 'cause she loves who you are. It may take a while (took years for me) until you become her first choice, not a rebound guy, not a pity guy, but a legit great guy she loves. Why? Because you were there through everything, through the beautiful things and the ugly things. Especially helps if you never make a move on her, because then she will be curious and may actually want you because you don't show too much interest (gasp!). Hey, if it doesn't work out, still got a great friend! (woot woot!) Forgetting is easier than what people make it out to be, it's true.

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