Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

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personally I'm gay so I don't really have the friendzone problem, but I have seen alot of women lead on a guy that has been friendzoned. They know that the guy wants them so they get him to buy them stuff, or take care of them in bad situations.

I had one girl ask me if it was wrong to flirt with a guy to buy her a pizza even though she new the guy liked her and she had no intention of ever dating the guy. I told her "idk its kinda what girls do." and then she got mad at me.

idk women are confusing and weird.

The friend zone can be an interesting thing. I've often considered that, as a girl, life would be much easier if we could just fall for the guys who liked us. Case in point: I have a very good friend who is one of the sweetest guys I've ever known. He makes me laugh, listens thoughtfully to my video game ranting even though he doesn't get it, loves my cooking and I have a ball hanging out with him. The problem? I'm just not attracted to him, but every person and their dog that we both know has come back to me with "You realise he has it bad for you, right?". Secondary problem: I've got pretty strong feelings for his boss and my friend knows it.

Now, in my defense, I knew his boss first. I'd liked the guy since the moment he shook my hand, looked me in the eye, smiled and told me his name. Thing is, girls can be dicks about friendzoning. Yeah, I'll admit it. Some girls like to turn the screw in until the guy is screaming in agony. I'm not that kind of girl(usually, I'll either try and keep my mate's boss out of our conversation or let him bring the guy up).

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that sometimes guys have the right to whinge about being friend-zoned. Heck, I've had it happen to me often enough. But you know, I'd much rather be their friend than lose them altogether. :)

bluepilot:
I assumed nothing. I am the current only copyright holder of my own opinions so please refrain from putting words into my mouth.
I have no problem per say with "emotionless pussy hunters", as long as they are honest in their intentions.

Oh I see, well if you already made up your mind then the point of my post was rather lost.
Bottom line is if people cared to understand one another there would be far less of these pointing fingers and laughing debacles.

I'm prepared to put my hand up and admit I have been guilty of indulging the mindset of friendship+time=relationship. In fact, the first time I was educated about 'the friend zone' was in response to the girl in question saying 'I just want to find a good, nice guy' [words to that effect] and myself responding [slightly petulantly, literally through gritted teeth] 'there's one sitting right next to you'.

Now, I'm prouder to say that I'm still very good friends with this person, even though it still sometimes kills me inside to be in such a so-near-and-yet-so-far position (which, I may suggest is what really drives many a friend zone complainer half mad).

Having expended a huge amount of thought (alright, a moderate amount of thought and a huge amount of incandescent angst) on the matter, I think what annoys me personally -and which I'd be interested to see if others feel similarly- is this:

It sometimes seems almost as if Nice Guys are viewed as rather like a public service; in that they should be conveniently available by default. Now, I don't deny for one moment that many a young lady deserves only the finest young gentleman who will treat her properly (not least my dear friend, who's just broken up with someone who was not and did not). But what gets under my skin is the girls whose actual preference is fun with a fit, muscle-bound alpha-male type and then a nice guy later on for when they want staid reliability.

My point? The difficulty for a girl in finding a nice guy (in SOME, let me be clear, not ALL cases)may be because the nice guy who would have done anything for her has been so crushed inside by watching her flirt and court and associate with shallow Adonis types that he no longer has the self-worth or confidence to greet the day with an open heart anymore.

Now, yes this is all based on self-experience. I was driven to the point of self-harming by perceiving things in this way and, as a result, I'm determined never to indulge romantic inclinations ever again. However, it's a viewpoint from the other side of the fence, which I believe was the intention of the OP.

Mr.K.:

bluepilot:
I assumed nothing. I am the current only copyright holder of my own opinions so please refrain from putting words into my mouth.
I have no problem per say with "emotionless pussy hunters", as long as they are honest in their intentions.

Oh I see, well if you already made up your mind then the point of my post was rather lost.
Bottom line is if people cared to understand one another there would be far less of these pointing fingers and laughing debacles.

You are still putting words in my mouth. I know you mean well and you probably do not mean to do it but I'm afraid that I do not appreciate having my internal dialogue construed. Would you be kind enough to stop that please?

I can certainly agree with your second point though. It would be a great world if we all took the time to get to know each other better. However, this can be quite difficult at times as expressing yourself and communication are not always the easiest of things. I think the two of us are having a hard time understanding each other but nevermind. This is an internet forum and we might have more success at a hypothetical cafe over a hypothetical chocolate parfait.

Quite the hilarious picture I've just seen...

imahobbit4062:
I'd agree with the whole "Just because you're nice doesn't entitle you to a relationship with them"
However, the friend I had feelings for, hooked up with me (while she was completely sober mind you) months after we became friends, then when I confessed my feelings for her I was instantly friend zoned.
Now that was bullshit.

I experienced something similar and it was not pleasant. "Yeah, you know that amazing sex we just had? That deep emotional and physical bond we just shared? I don't like you anymore." If a man did that to a woman, he's be seen as an inhuman monster. (It doesn't make women or men "inhuman monsters," but as you said, that is some bullshit.)

I'm going to take a slightly counter opinion to the "guys are whiny jerks" and say that when you find out that someone you want to have a relationship with doesn't like you like that, you DO have a right to be upset about it. It's disappointing and if you didn't feel anything at all, something might be wrong with you or you might have never been really attracted to this person. Granted, it's not her problem and you shouldn't say anything mean to her or make ridiculous demands. But whether you want to stay friends is entirely up to you.

Personally, I'd opt to stay friends. People grow and change and the person that she might become might like you that way. It's a long shot, but anything's possible. Also, girls also have friends that are girls. They talk about us and if you act like an ass, it will get around. And if you really are a good friend, she might take pity on you and set you up with another good friend. Networking is very beneficial.

Plus, if this girl who friend zoned you changes her mind one day, maybe by then you'll have found someone else and she'll just have to feel like an idiot that she didn't accept you way back when. You wouldn't want to miss out on that, would you? The best revenge is to live well.

JoesshittyOs:

Hagi:
As far as I'm concerned the "Friend Zone" is an entirely fictional thing made up by teenagers to avoid admitting their own inexperience and clumsiness.

I've never particularly viewed the term "friend zoned" as a whiny thing. It's just a term to described that the person you've been pursuing only views you as a friend. It's not fictional, and it's something that you are well within your power to change. It's just a phrase, no different from saying something like "she hates me".

I've just always been confused with people like you who try to turn it into a thing people say to avoid the fact that it's somehow their fault that they didn't win over the person. It's just a simple term to describe the relationship between two people.

I have to agree with you 100%. I have never used it as an excuse as to why I didn't get the girl or as a crutch to say I was owed a date. To me the Friend Zone is a term used to describe the effect of someone you like romantically only liking you as a friend. I am sure there are asshats out there who use the "Friend Zone" term as a crutch and these people are mostly going to be awkward or inexperienced guys trying to get that mythical golden goose, just like there are guys that engineer situations and feelings to "get" the girl as though she was a game. Honestly I think the latter of the two are the larger problem, but it doesn't get whined about. Women can also help alleviate the amount this happens by making their feelings known when the guy starts to present those "signs". Having grown up around mostly women (family, friends, community, ect) I know women can detect the signs (well most can). Especially the signs from the socially awkward and shy guys. The women then continue on with the friendship knowing what the eventuality is. So is the woman not at least partially at fault for having let her situation become engineered around her (note I do not mean this for every situation). The fault could also be put on the ROMCOMS for causing an excess of people thinking this is a good idea.

PS: If you are friend zoned, figure out why and work on it. Crying about it does absolutely nothing for your situation. Get up, get over it, and get moving.

Raven's Nest:
Quite the hilarious picture I've just seen...

Hmm, I actually made a thread about that picture a long time ago - seems they've added some extra stuff to it, the last 4 windows weren't there before^^

tobyornottoby:
Or maybe both 'being a dickhead' and 'being attractive' both come from the same source, 'being assertive and confident' but are not necessarily correlated.

Sorry I didn't mean it that way, what I'm saying is that being nice is not enough. You can be smart, funny, good-looking, sharing hobbies or views, all those things will attract people to each other. A woman can be attracted to a man who's good looking. She can be head over heals for an 'ugly' man who's very smart. But you don't just fall in love with someone simply because they're nice.

Some of those "Nice Guy" rants do. "They are nice, they do not get the girl, that's unfair."

Certainly. As I said a while ago in the thread:
If you want someone to hate you, be mean to them.
If you want someone to be friends with you, be nice to them.
If you want someone to love you, be romantic to them.

If you are nice to a girl and she wants to be friends with you, that's exactly what you asked for. And yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. Being nice to people and men and women being friends are beautiful things.

But men shouldn't complain they're being nice but the other doesn't love them back. If they want B, act B. Don't act A and complain you're not getting B.

There have been many books written on the subject. (The following are all generalisations and do NOT apply to every individual)

When a woman says "You never take out the garbage and you always keep your dirty clothes lying around" she doesn't literally mean 'never' and 'always' (rather as poetic embellishments), although men will interpret it as such, leading to pointless arguments.
When a woman asks "does this make me look fat" she doesn't want a yes or no answer. She wants to hear you find her beautiful.
When a woman talks about her problems, chances are she doesn't want to hear solutions but just a listening ear.
When a woman asks "Are you hungry? We can pull over to stop somewhere", chances are she is hungry herself, so you just saying "no" and carrying on will be interpreted as insensitive. Women are more likely to ask things indirectly.

Evidence, provability? These are everyday problems, happening all the time.

I can agree with that. Being assertive is what attracts people.
However, people don't realize this, on both sides of the gender divide.
Girls will go after asshole guys who are assertive and "nice guys" will despair at this phenomenon, neither one really understanding what's happening.

Of course not. A person who's only nice is a boring person.

Some of them do, yes.
But the main thing is that they are emotionally there for the girl.
They're willing to listen and help the girl with her problems.
They hope that this loyalty is enough to let them a relationship and I can't really blame them.
However, what they don't realize is that they are in fucking high school and that girls don't give a shit about loyalty yet.

They think that A should net them B. I think that this is something you still don't understand for some reason.
They think that being nice and listening to what the girl has to say is the key to getting a girl to like them.
There is no hard and fast rule to how to get people to like you, so this issue is more unclear than you give it credit for.

Again, anecdotal evidence. Guys say "always" and "never" all the time and they don't mean it literally.
When people ask for evaluations of their appearance they usually don't want the truth, regardless of gender.
etc, etc...
Anecdotal evidence is not reliable.

Glad to see someone has the balls to face facts. I used to get friend zoned frequently but halfway through college i figured how that it was getting me nowhere. Now I'm still a nice guy but If I'm on a date, I'm not at all subtle about my intentions. One bit advice I will add to those seeking play; if she'll let you touch her crotch, she'll have sex with you, scientifically proven.

As someone who has been "Friendzoned" enough times to get my mail there, yes it sucks, I tend to stay involved in the vain hope that one day one might pan out at least as a date. Remember the effects of the last gamble don't effect the next one, so eventually one will pan out, probity.

But one the existence of guy culture having the term "Friendzone", it's warranted, It allows for other not to go blindly were you have tread and avoid the mistakes you have made.

Daystar Clarion:
-Damnit-

I can't decide if I love you or hate you for that.

Saviordd1:

Daystar Clarion:
-Damnit-

I can't decide if I love you or hate you for that.

That's love that you're feeling.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Phantomess:

Now, in my defense, I knew his boss first. I'd liked the guy since the moment he shook my hand, looked me in the eye, smiled and told me his name. Thing is, girls can be dicks about friendzoning. Yeah, I'll admit it. Some girls like to turn the screw in until the guy is screaming in agony. I'm not that kind of girl(usually, I'll either try and keep my mate's boss out of our conversation or let him bring the guy up).

You may not be doing it on purpose but you two are still both doing it wrong, holding things back and let them simmer until the pressure is too high and it all blows up in everyones face is where that is headed.
If you two actually are friends then you need to sit down and talk it over before that happens, yes it will be painfull and awkward on both ends but his bleeding hearth can't start healing while you are holding the wound wide open.

Pharsalus:
Glad to see someone has the balls to face facts. I used to get friend zoned frequently but halfway through college i figured how that it was getting me nowhere. Now I'm still a nice guy but If I'm on a date, I'm not at all subtle about my intentions. One bit advice I will add to those seeking play; if she'll let you touch her crotch, she'll have sex with you, scientifically proven.

Noted. If I had been aware of this fact earlier, I would have had sex with somebody who I didn't have sex with. Not sure if that would have been a good idea, but I know that it probably would have happened.

Why are you friends with girls?

Women and solidarity do not go well together.

Your forgetting that BOTH genders are equally P.O.H. retarded.
Its true, men will quite often be "nice guys" for shallow reasons. they then complain that nice guys finish last. (true regardless of sincerity)
Its also true that women will reject someone who at least is at least is acting like a nice guy for equally shallow reasons, and then wonder why he doesn't have any of the "nice guy" qualities.
Don't believe me? who do YOU think got more action?
the smart teen
or good looking teen?

You guys know you can power through the friend zone to sexville right?

Onjenae:

I wish more women were like me I do not hang around or associate with males that call themselves nice guys which is ually code for pushover , cornball,creep,or just very unattractive socially awkard male

could you generalize any more than that?

I for one am offended, I consider myself a "Nice-guy" and i am neither a push-over, cornball nor creepy. I may not be the most attractive guy in the universe and i may be a bit socially awkward. but to say that everyone who are a "nice guy" is a creep, is idiotic. it's like saying every beautiful woman is a bitch and is stupid and self-centered.

To clarify, I do not feel entitled to a relationship just because i was nice to them. and those who think that should not be considered or consider them selves as "nice guys" but be considered as douchebags.

Condiments:

Nickolai77:

But being a nice-guy and friendzoning is a consequence of the way dating works. Most guy's at a young age don't have the courage to go up to a girl they barely know and ask her out. I can't blame them because i was once like that. With age girls become less scary, you also become more self-confident because you know that girls are only human like you. And you get better at wearing masks.

"Nice Guy Syndrome" is just an unfortunate fact of current gender roles/courting. While there are 'Assholes' who berate women's self confidence to establish higher social value so they can pick them up, there is also 'Nice Guys'(another kind of asshole), who try to warm up to their love interest in order to gather the courage to ask them out. It'd be easier to simply express interest right away, but the beginning stages of dating can be terrifying for the uninitiated, especially for the guy who has to make the first move. I'm not justifying their actions, just explaining the facts.

Sorry, I fail to see how wanting build up courage and ensure I'm making the right decision before I ask a girl out makes me an asshole.

Cyfu:

Onjenae:

I wish more women were like me I do not hang around or associate with males that call themselves nice guys which is ually code for pushover , cornball,creep,or just very unattractive socially awkard male

could you generalize any more than that?

I for one am offended, I consider myself a "Nice-guy" and i am neither a push-over, cornball nor creepy. I may not be the most attractive guy in the universe and i may be a bit socially awkward. but to say that everyone who are a "nice guy" is a creep, is idiotic. it's like saying every beautiful woman is a bitch and is stupid and self-centered.

To clarify, I do not feel entitled to a relationship just because i was nice to them. and those who think that should not be considered or consider them selves as "nice guys" but be considered as douchebags.

I can't say how you can be offended. You go around labelling yourself and then you are surprised when others think it's ok to label you themselves. If you have nothing else to take pride in than the fact you are a "nice guy" by your own admission and feel the need to point it out to your friends then you shouldn't be surprised you aren't as interesting to people as you'd wish. Being nice isn't a virtue, it's a minimum requirement of human decency.

Please. I don't want to be rude but you can aspire to a bit more than being nice.

Ho-wow this is a tricky subject. Coincidentally, I actually wrote a paper on this for English - not on the "friend-zone" specifically, but on why girls don't go for nice guys. Considering this thread is already 11 pages long and nearly every possible angle has been identified - posting this is probably pretty useless and unnecessary, and if so then you should ignore it an go about your merry way. However, if you have a response I'd be happy to hear it. I've thought about this kind of thing for far too long. My assessment is as follows:

I hate women.
That's not true. I love women, but they've caused me the most frustration out of probably anything else in my 19 years of living. You ever hear the phrase "nice guys finish last"? Well unfortunately, it's entirely true. As it turns out, most girls will use almost any excuse they can come up with to avoid dating a nice guy: "He's too nice," "all the good guys are taken," "we're just good friends, dating would make things weird," "yadda, yadda, yadda." Please ladies, spare me, I've heard them all before.

Now at this point in time you're probably wondering: "Christopher, you bitter old woman-hater, if you know so well then what do you define as a nice guy?" Well I'm glad I'm assuming you've asked. Nice guys are the ones who respect women, and not in a "wait on them hand and foot" kind of way. What I mean is that they don't try and take advantage of anyone. They honestly care about the feelings and emotions of women, and not because they have to, because they are naturally genuine and sincere. They want to make a girl feel good, not because they're trying to get rewarded for it, but because it's what a good man does. So why is it that the majority of the time the careless jerk; we'll refer to him as Chad McSexy, gets the girl over us sweet and caring guys? I've narrowed the answer down to three reasons:

Reason #1) Nice guys are generally not very confident. This sucks because girls eat up confidence like a box of chocolate unicorns covered in pixie dust sprinkles. Women love men who have a good sense of who they are, that's a lot of what confidence is all about. They like it when a guy knows what he wants out of life, where he's headed, and what values are important to him. But whether or not Chad McSexy knows any of these things isn't really important, because he can sure as hell act like it. (And when you're trying to get into a girl's pants, what else really matters?)

Sadly, nice guys aren't good actors. We may have that sense of who we are, but we don't know how to express it or use it to our advantage. To many of us, even just walking up to a girl we've never talked to before and introducing ourselves is a terrifying notion. Yes, we understand that you're people just like everyone else and will be polite if we approach you, but these things don't change the fact that we find you incredibly intimidating. Sure, nice guys are more likely to be romantic and cutesy, but we don't have the confidence to show it, not at first anyway. It takes us some time for us to become comfortable around you, time most women aren't willing to waste.
Reason #2) Chad McSexy is a very good con man. Whether it's intentional or not, it's easy for him to make girls think he's an actual nice guy. No really, he totally is. He's vulnerable and insecure and he really cares about those special people in his life. And the way that he looks at you makes you- what's that? He wants you to take your pants off? Well, maybe just this once, he's been so sweet to you all night. He wouldn't take advantage of you. He's not that kind of guy. "Can you hold on a second?" you say. "I just need to strangle this last bit of common sense to its imminent death." *sounds of a struggle* "Oops, I accidently killed my self respect too. Oh well."

My point is, Chad McSexy is a good deceiver because on the outside, he's already all the things women like, so it's easy for him to automatically appeal to them. He's got a great smile and a charismatic personality, but nice guys don't usually come in that neat of a package. We're not outgoing, or have fun in the same ways you do, and are probably into things that only we find cool. But if given the chance, we'll hop into our X-Wings and blow that Death Star to a million pieces, just for you.
Reason #3) Girls don't understand that the rules of attraction don't come naturally to nice guys. You ladies expect us to know when to make a move, what to say when we introduce ourselves, or how to know if you like us back; but these things have never been clear to us. I was talking to a girl today about this very subject and she said, "Girls aren't hard to read ... you can tell when we like you, we give you this look." To which I immediately thought: "There's a look??" Some universal look that women give to men they're attracted to? No I didn't know this! How was I supposed to? Why wasn't I informed of this earlier?" No ladies, there's no look, you think there's a look. You think we know these things about you, when really we have about as much of a clue as to why you guys get so much enjoyment out of reality television. (It puzzles me to this day.)

So ladies, cut the nice guys some slack. We're truly sorry we reference so many dorky things, play a lot of video games, and don't have Ryan Reynolds' abs, but this doesn't mean we should be cast out and left bitter and alone because of it. I understand that you're young and these are all things that you will probably grow out of once you stop craving drama, but after you've been hurt and manipulated so many times, wouldn't you say it's time for a little change? Give us a chance. Give us a chance to become the men you never thought we could be. Who knows? We may surprise you. Don't immediately give up on us because we're "too nice" or "too clingy," we haven't had much practice at this stuff after all. If something is bothering you about the relationship, then talk to us. Teach us how to be the kind of guys that girls want to date, while still keeping our morality and sweetness intact. And for the love of god, stop giving in to the Chad McSexys of the world. You're better than that.

Revolutionaryloser:

I can't say how you can be offended. You go around labelling yourself and then you are surprised when others think it's ok to label you themselves. If you have nothing else to take pride in than the fact you are a "nice guy" by your own admission and feel the need to point it out to your friends then you shouldn't be surprised you aren't as interesting to people as you'd wish. Being nice isn't a virtue, it's a minimum requirement of human decency.

Please. I don't want to be rude but you can aspire to a bit more than being nice.

Looks like you can't even pull off nice.

He's one up on you.

Revolutionaryloser:

Cyfu:

could you generalize any more than that?

I for one am offended, I consider myself a "Nice-guy" and i am neither a push-over, cornball nor creepy. I may not be the most attractive guy in the universe and i may be a bit socially awkward. but to say that everyone who are a "nice guy" is a creep, is idiotic. it's like saying every beautiful woman is a bitch and is stupid and self-centered.

To clarify, I do not feel entitled to a relationship just because i was nice to them. and those who think that should not be considered or consider them selves as "nice guys" but be considered as douchebags.

I can't say how you can be offended. You go around labelling yourself and then you are surprised when others think it's ok to label you themselves. If you have nothing else to take pride in than the fact you are a "nice guy" by your own admission and feel the need to point it out to your friends then you shouldn't be surprised you aren't as interesting to people as you'd wish. Being nice isn't a virtue, it's a minimum requirement of human decency.

Please. I don't want to be rude but you can aspire to a bit more than being nice.

I don't really know how to answer this, but i will try.
you assume that i go around telling everyone that how nice a guy I am. and that i think that being nice, as you said , is a virtue.
yes, I pride myself in being a nice guy. but this is the first time in my entire life I have labeled myself as a nice guy. I don't expect anyone to behave in any other way than this. because like you said it's the minimum requirement of human decency. but when someone says that behaving according to human decency is a sign of being bigger ass or creep than people who are behaving below the minimum requirement of human decency is, in my opinion, a pretty good reason to be offended.

museofdoom:
...if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

The two things I find wrong with this statement are a) it assumes the "nice guy" isn't the same with other girls, and b) it assumes the nice guy just wants in their pants.

(Side note: I think my issue with all of the "nice guy hate" that's starting around the internet is coming from the fact that I use the term's annotation [a guy who is generally nicer to people than the accepted average) instead of its label/connotation (a guy who acts overly kind to a female he is interested in.])

Gromril:
You guys know you can power through the friend zone to sexville right?

Does that statement come with an explanation within legal limits or should we notify the authorities?

Imma just ram in a quote right here.

"Generally, I think being "nice" to attract a mate is overrated. "Nice" is great if you're a Disney Princess, but come on, everyone should be nice to each other. That's just standard practice for living in polite society. And just because people often aren't nice to each other doesn't mean that when you are, it somehow makes you more distinctive or desirable. I mean, it's like flossing. You really want to hang your hat on the fact that you floss, and other people don't? I mean, sure, you'll have nice teeth. But... what else?

A woman who tells her friends that, "well, he was nice" is damning you with faint praise, because it means she can't think of anything else to remember you by.

So don't settle for being "nice". Strive for "amazing", or "unforgettable", or "the greatest man I've ever met".

Yes, be respectful, generous and kind. Be nice. But also: Do the things you do well. Don't apologize when you win. Tell jokes in a crowd. Take the mic in Rock Band. Be the DM. See the world. Laugh loudly. Dance badly. Try the things that scare you. Wear a stupid hat. Share your opinions freely. Share your kindnesses even more freely. Love yourself first, and without restraint. Just burn, burn like a flame that can't go out; burn brighter and hotter than even the sun.

Fuck being a nice guy. Be a supernova instead."

Dont JUST be nice. Be AWESOME as well. Being nice is good but it doesnt make you datable or fun or interesting or hilarious. It just makes you pleasant to interact with. It doesnt say anythjng about how fun or exhillerating that interaction is. Ive always taken this idea that you need to be a PERSON. Being an automatic robot that spouts nice phrases and politeness is BORING. Get an awesome hobby, play thne banjo and be something awesome. When a girl walks away from talking to you get them to remember you as "the funny one" or "the one who loves singing" not just "the one who was kinda nice". Being nice doesnt mean squat because you can be nice and fucking boring. Being nice is good but it doesnt say anything about the depths of your personality. The thing that really gets girls being intreging.

Be SO interesting that that girl wants nothing more than to spend her life working you out, knowing you, getting every last hilarious or interesting nuggett out of you, dont just be nice.

So I read a lot about this thing where people pretend to be friends with someone just for the chance of getting romantically involved with them. I have to ask, does anyone actually do that? Ever? It would be an almost Machiavellian gambit if it wasn't so universally ineffective and presumably painful. I've never known anything like that happen, I've never heard anyone else complain about it, and the examples I'm presented with online are strange. Well, people say they've done it, so I suppose it's happened (shows what I know.)

But there's a myriad of more reasonable explanations as to why or how anyone would find themselves in that situation; from fear (based from yet another myriad of reasons) to the changing of feelings or circumstances to just naturally getting to know someone, hell the list of excuses goes on - and I've not even talked about the "whys" in the reaction/aftermath. We're only human, so why is this "nice guy gambit" assumed? I think these accusations are cynical.

And this whole "entitlement to love/sex" thing. Again I must be missing something and would appreciate some enlightenment. I think most human beings want to love and be loved; we are a social animal with a hormone driven reproductive system. Why is the word "entitlement" used at all? There's this icky pseudo-libertarian vibe to it all.

I think we should treat each other with a little more respect - especially with regards to something millions of year of natural selection has carved into our innate subconscious. And especially with the younger guys; cut 'em some slack eh?

Onjenae:
The friend zone does not exist usually guys that get put in the friendzone are either losers or very unattractive no offense.

BTW i notice that nice guys seem to think they are entitled to women alot of you so called nice guys really creep me out

you act as if women belong to you and seem to be mad at the world because you rejected and noboyd wants to sleep with you.

Being nice does not make you an interesting person, a good person, does not mean you are attractive and I've notice unlike men , us ladies usually do not tell men we find unttractive that they are unattractive.

I wish more women were like me I do not hang around or associate with males that call themselves nice guys which is ually code for pushover , cornball,creep,or just very unattractive socially awkard male

trhe reason nice guys get the friend zone is not because of them being nice its because they are usually ugly as hell.

So if you are ugly you donīt deserve to be happy? If a guy isnīt succssful or good looking he should never be loved?

museofdoom:
So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her...

Too late.

Become friends and spend time with her? You have defined a girl friend, not a girlfriend.

Lemme put it another way: Sexual frequency is established from the moment you meet. If you need sex once a week, you better have sex in the first week. If you need sex once a month, then wait a month. If you wait a year first, your life together will probably not include a sex life.

Actually think about it like this. Imagine by some awesome turn of events you have a fuck buddy. You guys do the stuff and talk a little and youre always nice but thats pretty much it. Then one day you ask her to marry you. She says no and is weirded out. This is obviously the wrong way to go about anything. But for some reason springing a relationship out of a friendship without warning is fine? There was an established relationship and suddenly youve come out of nowhere and turned it all on its head. See why that might confuse and scare off a lot of girls?

Its also a proven fact that youre more likely to fall for people you KNOW like you. So dont be shy guys tell girls you like them!

Mr.K.:

Gromril:
You guys know you can power through the friend zone to sexville right?

Does that statement come with an explanation within legal limits or should we notify the authorities?

Heh nah, Iv'e never asked a woman If the rag Im holding smells of chloraform or anything like that.

Eternal Taros:
Some of them do, yes.
But the main thing is that they are emotionally there for the girl.
They're willing to listen and help the girl with her problems.
They hope that this loyalty is enough to let them a relationship and I can't really blame them.

Well I think I can. Say there's a job opening for rocket builder, and one of the requirements is 'great team worker'. Just because I happen to be a great team worker doesn't mean I have a shot if I don't have a rocket science degree.

Eternal Taros:
They think that A should net them B. I think that this is something you still don't understand for some reason.

I don't quite understand what I don't understand. I know they think that. But they're thinking wrong.

Eternal Taros:
There is no hard and fast rule to how to get people to like you, so this issue is more unclear than you give it credit for.

Of course, I vastly oversimplified it. But while it's hard to say what works, I do think it's somewhat easier to say what doesn't work.

Eternal Taros:
Again, anecdotal evidence. Guys say "always" and "never" all the time and they don't mean it literally.
When people ask for evaluations of their appearance they usually don't want the truth, regardless of gender.
etc, etc...
Anecdotal evidence is not reliable.

Reliable enough to have been of great help to me at least in my interaction with others =)

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