Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

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deathzero021:
actually that isn't the reason males get mad at friend zoning. it's because they may or may not have a serious desire for the girl. it's not about getting into their pants it's about being with them romantically. being rejected by a close friend that you like is an incredibly painful feeling. i'm guessing the OP just hasn't experienced this. it seems to be an experience more common with guys.

so since your a female and haven't been in the situation, i don't think you can tell us males why it is we rant about it. that's being ignorant and rude. asking the question would have been good enough but describing it without having a clue about what's really going on is just stupid.

Well I am male, and yes the OP is right. You claiming that she is a woman and therefore doesn't understand is what is ignorant and rude. Did it ever occur to you that maybe she's been on the other side? Maybe she rejected a guy who acted this exact way? Or maybe she has been on the advice section of this or any forum and watched all the guys complain about how much attention they have heaped on a girl only for her to have the nerve to reject him. She wasn't talking about all men, just the guys who act nice because they believe that it makes them entitled to a relationship. And when they don't get it the start badmouthing the girl who was their friend moments before and end the friendship.

And before you ask, I have been reject by girls who are my friend, and guess what? We stayed friends I didn't hold it against them, and I got over it.

Phasmal:

artanis_neravar:

Phasmal:

As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are. :P

And being the friend who flirts with the friend who is oblivious makes things a little difficult.

Oblivious people are... different. They may require a bit less subtlety.
(Is oblivious herself)

Oblivious people sure can be entertaining though. Maybe I'll try slowly reducing the subtly till she starts to notice...

artanis_neravar:

Char-Nobyl:
snip

These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you. I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them. To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.

You (not just you, tho) seem to be mixing up "is attractive" and "am attracted to". Maybe looks like an insignificant difference, but it isn't, really.

artanis_neravar:

deathzero021:
actually that isn't the reason males get mad at friend zoning. it's because they may or may not have a serious desire for the girl. it's not about getting into their pants it's about being with them romantically. being rejected by a close friend that you like is an incredibly painful feeling. i'm guessing the OP just hasn't experienced this. it seems to be an experience more common with guys.

so since your a female and haven't been in the situation, i don't think you can tell us males why it is we rant about it. that's being ignorant and rude. asking the question would have been good enough but describing it without having a clue about what's really going on is just stupid.

Well I am male, and yes the OP is right. You claiming that she is a woman and therefore doesn't understand is what is ignorant and rude. Did it ever occur to you that maybe she's been on the other side? Maybe she rejected a guy who acted this exact way? Or maybe she has been on the advice section of this or any forum and watched all the guys complain about how much attention they have heaped on a girl only for her to have the nerve to reject him. She wasn't talking about all men, just the guys who act nice because they believe that it makes them entitled to a relationship. And when they don't get it the start badmouthing the girl who was their friend moments before and end the friendship.

And before you ask, I have been reject by girls who are my friend, and guess what? We stayed friends I didn't hold it against them, and I got over it.

what i meant by her not understanding, is that she hasn't been in the male point of view on the issue, i never meant that she hadn't been in the situation entirely but if she was on the side that was rejecting than she must not understand how the guy FEELS about it and why they may do or say stupid things because they are hurt. i dont think they rant because they are hateful, theyre doing it to vent out their pain.

if you stayed friends with them than that's great but not everyone is going to react the same way and you can't expect everyone to get over it. some people just cant. so i can understand those type of people and i'm not going to attack them. personally none of this matters to me because i havent been in the situation but i have been close to it and i can put myself into their shoes and understand somewhat how they are feeling.

i dont think they would stop being friends because they didnt "get any" they may stop being friends because it would become too uncomfortable for them. the guy might always see her in a romantic way and therefor just cant be the type of friend she wants him to be. i dont understand why if a guy likes a girl, people instantly assume he just wants to sleep with her? that's disturbing to hear... really i can't understand that. there are plenty of men interested in romantic and meaningful relationships. to assume that these guys are just chasing tail is juvenile.

if you really think about it, what kinda tailchaser is going to devote a lot of time to a close friend of his, be nice for her and hang out with her a lot, just to try and get some? in case you haven't noticed, those qualities don't match that of a tailchaser. those qualities match that of someone who is romantically interested. guys chasing sex aren't gonna stick around like that. they hit the bars, they try and sleep with girls on the first night. seriously use your heads people.

museofdoom:
Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a bitch. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0

I think it comes from a few things. (This is an outside perspective I don't get mad, I have a friend for whom I have romantic feelings who is completely plutonic to me and I'm fine with it.)

-The nice guy type of guy tends to not always be the most social guy, which leads up to that guy really focusing his efforts on a girl mostly on generally limited options.

-Everything in society tells guys that a pretty girl is the general reward he can expect, Stand up to a bully, get the girl, save the universe, get the girl, graduate highschool, get the girl. (Its been around forever look at Fred and Wilma Flintstone, be an obnoxious stupid loudmouth jackass, you still get a wife with an hourglass figure and red hair.) So when the nice guy dose what he feels is going out of his way to prove himself a suitable life partner he feels naturally and unfairly (If not consiously or realistically) cheated when he dosn't get his pretty girl society has promised him.

-The guy tends to receive mixed signals the aforementioned "I would really want a guy like you." That like in there gets edited out by the brain pretty instantly.

I'm not saying its fair of them to get mad at you or feel particularly entitled but generally its these things that causes it.

Vegosiux:

artanis_neravar:

Char-Nobyl:
snip

These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you. I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them. To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.

You (not just you, tho) seem to be mixing up "is attractive" and "am attracted to". Maybe looks like an insignificant difference, but it isn't, really.

No, no I am not. Being attractive is subjective. For example I do not find models attractive, I don't find large breast of butts attractive so i would define such a person as unattractive, while people who do like those things would define them as attractive.

Ok. Here's a streamlined and stupid version of how romantic relationships go.

For both genders, the most important factor is physical appearance, specifically that the other person happens to find yours attractive. Second is how desperate you are for a relationship and for sex. Everything else, personality, intelligence, whatever the fuck have you is more or less irrelevant when it comes to hooking up w/ someone. This works both ways.

Combine Rustler:
Ok. Here's a streamlined and stupid version of how romantic relationships go.

For both genders, the most important factor is physical appearance, specifically that the other person happens to find yours attractive. Second is how desperate you are for a relationship and for sex. Everything else, personality, intelligence, whatever the fuck have you is more or less irrelevant when it comes to hooking up w/ someone. This works both ways.

Indeed.
The more desperate you are, the harder it is.
And that kind of desperation is not easy to hide in a believable manner.

Also, I don't even understand the "friendszone" thing at all.
Being angry because she wants to stay friends?

What kind of bullshit is that?
Being friends with a girl and being nice to her does not in any way entitle you to get in her pants and/or having a romantic/physicak relationship with her.

If anything it is she that should be pissed of at you, because clearly your not really interested in being her friend at all.

deathzero021:
snip

if you really think about it, what kinda tailchaser is going to devote a lot of time to a close friend of his, be nice for her and hang out with her a lot, just to try and get some? in case you haven't noticed, those qualities don't match that of a tailchaser. those qualities match that of someone who is romantically interested. guys chasing sex aren't gonna stick around like that. they hit the bars, they try and sleep with girls on the first night. seriously use your heads people.

While you are right about some guys, there are many who act just the way the OP described for the reasons that she described.

For the part I quoted they aren't really tailchasers in the traditional sense. Their goal isn't necessarily (misspelled necessarily as nessicarliy and spell check tried to correct me to carsickness) sex. And even when it is they aren't the type of guy with the confidence or charisma to pick up a girl at the bar. So they do what they think they should do to get a "girlfriend". They treat courtship as set prerequisites to a realtionship, something that if you do it all you immediately go from friend to boyfriend. It's that they are only being nice because they believe that being nice is what women expect, not because they genuinely act nice. They are the guys who will agree with everything a girl says just because they believe that is what the girl wants. Everything they do for the girl is because they believe it's what they are supposed to do, not because they want to.

Sarge034:
It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit.

Ah you just haveto put things into context and it makes perfect sense.
You see the viable candidates for relationships are exciting guys, and that scope does not include the default nice and dependable guys because they are quite dull and with it quite invisible.
So when a girl says "I want a nice guy" it means they want the exciting guys to also be nice and dependable for them, and when they say "I want a guy like you" it again means they want someone exciting to have your traits, so on and so forth...

It is a strange and convoluted system but it luckily means that "friend-zone" is not the end point if you are willing to reform into an exciting guy.

artanis_neravar:
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you.

That's just a more specific kind of bad. If a girl turns down a relationship because of that, she's the epitome of every girl who has ever posted a "OMG all guys are such dicks" status on Facebook, or claimed that "All the best guys are gay or married."

You're describing someone who says, "I like everything about you, but I think I can do better in the looks department. Will you stick around and support me until I find 'You 2.0'?" That's shallow and self-centered almost beyond words.

artanis_neravar:
I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them.

Okay...now, riddle me this: are you not attracted to them because you find them ugly? Or is it because you think their personalities make them great friends, but not great partners?

artanis_neravar:
To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.

Wait, what? How are looks equitable with education in this comparison? If anything, you can use looks both times through. It's like getting turned down by a hospital because you don't look enough like their idealized image of a doctor, even if they think you're perfect for the job in every other regard.

artanis_neravar:

deathzero021:
snip

if you really think about it, what kinda tailchaser is going to devote a lot of time to a close friend of his, be nice for her and hang out with her a lot, just to try and get some? in case you haven't noticed, those qualities don't match that of a tailchaser. those qualities match that of someone who is romantically interested. guys chasing sex aren't gonna stick around like that. they hit the bars, they try and sleep with girls on the first night. seriously use your heads people.

While you are right about some guys, there are many who act just the way the OP described for the reasons that she described.

For the part I quoted they aren't really tailchasers in the traditional sense. Their goal isn't necessarily (misspelled necessarily as nessicarliy and spell check tried to correct me to carsickness) sex. And even when it is they aren't the type of guy with the confidence or charisma to pick up a girl at the bar. So they do what they think they should do to get a "girlfriend". They treat courtship as set prerequisites to a realtionship, something that if you do it all you immediately go from friend to boyfriend. It's that they are only being nice because they believe that being nice is what women expect, not because they genuinely act nice. They are the guys who will agree with everything a girl says just because they believe that is what the girl wants. Everything they do for the girl is because they believe it's what they are supposed to do, not because they want to.

hmm well i guess i wouldn't know much about those types than (i have no male friends lol). i wouldn't say it's impossible, there are some strange people out there. i just wanted to get my point across that not all guys ranting about friend zoning are the type you just described and not all of them deserve any sort of harsh treatment for it. it might also be quite hard to see the difference between the motives of these varying people so lets just avoid jumping to conclusions before hearing them out. that's all im saying.

Why can't we all just get along? Why can't friendzoners understand that it's kind of a bummer to be just friends with someone you have romantic feelings for? Why can't friendzonees understand that they're not entitled to a relationship? Why can't we all just agree that we all deserve equal respect and base our actions and relationships accordingly? Why do we have to vilify everyone that isn't us?

Char-Nobyl:

artanis_neravar:
These easiest way to answer most of that is to say that the girl isn't finishing her sentence when she says "find a guy like you." the last part of it is "but attractive" Just because she likes your personality doesn't mean she is attracted to you.

That's just a more specific kind of bad. If a girl turns down a relationship because of that, she's the epitome of every girl who has ever posted a "OMG all guys are such dicks" status on Facebook, or claimed that "All the best guys are gay or married."

You're describing someone who says, "I like everything about you, but I think I can do better in the looks department. Will you stick around and support me until I find 'You 2.0'?" That's shallow and self-centered almost beyond words.

No I am not, just because a girl doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean that she only dates jerks. The girl never asked the guy to stay around until she finds another guy, the girl believes that this guy is her friend. If your friend has always made himself available for you to talk to why should you believe that this has changed

artanis_neravar:
I like my friends personalities, that is why I'm friends with them, but I'm not attracted to them.

Okay...now, riddle me this: are you not attracted to them because you find them ugly? Or is it because you think their personalities make them great friends, but not great partners?

I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.

artanis_neravar:
To use your metaphor I could be excel at the interview, but fail to meet their education requirements. They want someone like me personality wise, but better qualified in educational matters.

Wait, what? How are looks equitable with education in this comparison? If anything, you can use looks both times through. It's like getting turned down by a hospital because you don't look enough like their idealized image of a doctor, even if they think you're perfect for the job in every other regard.

No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.

Sorry lady but men don't like to think that they've been lead on. If your totally going to shoot them down then you shouldn't be surprised if they totally shoot you down as a friend and move on. Besides being awkward its somewhat just sad to stay with the person you like when they make it clear theres nothing. If theyre looking for a relationship(which is perfectly acceptable) and you just want friendship then they would be just wasting their time and unless you are going to help, you would be wasting theirs. If their thought of the friendship was going to lead to something and you strike it down then the friendship needs to be reevaluated or let go.

artanis_neravar:

No, no I am not. Being attractive is subjective. For example I do not find models attractive, I don't find large breast of butts attractive so i would define such a person as unattractive, while people who do like those things would define them as attractive.

Yes, I agree, it's subjective. But "You're unattractive" is not a subjective statement. "I don't find you attractive" is.

Also, nitpick alert: "Like you, but X" is "Not like you." You either get the whole package or you don't, there's no custom character creator in reality.

Vegosiux:

artanis_neravar:

No, no I am not. Being attractive is subjective. For example I do not find models attractive, I don't find large breast of butts attractive so i would define such a person as unattractive, while people who do like those things would define them as attractive.

Yes, I agree, it's subjective. But "You're unattractive" is not a subjective statement. "I don't find you attractive" is.

Also, nitpick alert: "Like you, but X" is "Not like you." You either get the whole package or you don't, there's no custom character creator in reality.

"I don't find you attractive" is the polite way to say it.

To nitpick "Like you, but X" is "like you but X" If you choose to date somebody you don't get to pick the parts of them you like and get ride of the parts of them you don't. But when you are choosing whether you want to date someone you do get to choose what traits you want. For example a guy meets this girl. She is a gamer, likes anime, and the same TV shows. These are all things he is looking for in a girl, but not all of the things he is looking for. Now lets say this girl also is extremely controlling, which is something that he doesn't want. he can choose to go find a girl with all of the things he likes who isn't controlling

requisitename:
If people (male and female) would make their intentions and desires clear up front, we wouldn't have this issue. When people (male and female) play games, people (male and female) get hurt/angry/etc.

I've known enough people (male and female) to know that generally, interest is there (or not) from the beginning. It's been very rare that I've seen the typical romcom "just realized what was right in front of my face, now I'm crazy in love" trope play out in real life. People (male and female) certainly shouldn't count on that happening.

*sighs*

Of course, people will most likely continue to play games regardless of my advice and then get hurt or mad when things don't turn out the way they want them to. C'est la guerre.

thats why elcors are the best partners in the galaxy
image

man: do you think im a good guy. as in as good to have a relationship with?
female elcor: friendly distancing with slight disgust: yes you are a nice guy and you could have a relationship. i need to go to the bathroom. i'll be back in a minuite.
man: :(

artanis_neravar:
No I am not, just because a girl doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean that she only dates jerks.

That's correct. It just means that she loses all credibility when she complains about how "all guys r dicks" while on the hunt for a better-looking version of her rejected male friend.

artanis_neravar:
The girl never asked the guy to stay around until she finds another guy, the girl believes that this guy is her friend. If your friend has always made himself available for you to talk to why should you believe that this has changed

Possibly because you revealed that your only reason for rejecting his attempt at a relationship is your belief that you can find someone just as good but better looking.

artanis_neravar:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.

*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?

artanis_neravar:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.

Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?

artanis_neravar:
"I don't find you attractive" is the polite way to say it.

No, it's the way of saying it that correctly relays the fact that it's a subjective opinion.

If you say "You're unattractive", you are not relaying that. "Unattractive" would be something (nearly) nobody could ever be attracted to, ever.

For example, you talk about models. Am I attracted to them? Nah. Do I think they're unattractive? No, since considering they attract quite some people, there must be something making them attractive.

Or let me try an analogy. You're at a friend's place for lunch, and they make something you don't really like. Does the fact that you didn't like the meal make them a shitty cook? I didn't think so.

The 'friend zone' is better described as the 'do not want to date' zone. The idea of people being so close that their friendship might be in jeopardy if they date is cute but extremely rare, it does happen but we're talking like one in a few million here. No the majority of it is "I don't want to date you." and you know what? That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that and people getting their knickers in a twist because they really want to screw the girl that just rejected them need to man the hell up.

As for "nice guys", there's again a difference here, nice guys are great and do well in life. I'm a nice guy, honestly I am, I go out of my way to help people, I put myself there for them. I don't bitch about others, I avoid the very few people I dislike and I give out advice like a pez dispenser gives out sweet crunchy goodness.
"Nice guys" are dicks who lie and act nice in order to get laid. The difference between a nice guy and a "nice guy" isn't hard to see really and is best exemplified by what happens in the case that both get rejected by a girl.

A nice guy will accept that he is not what she wants but stay friends, sure they may drift apart now he's not hitting on her but the reasons he liked her remain so he'll stick around and they'll become buds, maybe even great friends.
A "nice guy" will get angry that she dare reject him and will cease all communication with her because now she won't fuck him she's as useful as a pile of straw in his life.

Nice guys and "nice guys". Simples.
These comics help my point:
http://xkcd.com/513/
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrskhrpOs21qcz3izo1_500.png

So in you're example, first he becomes friends with her, and then he starts feeling attracted to her, and the she rejects him (which she is completely justified in doing don't take me wrong), and then the man only ever wanted to hang out with the woman because he wanted to have sex with her?

I agree with you almost 100 % but you have a bit of a contradiction there.

And in my opinion (to be honest my opinion was created mostly by other commenters on this thread but in "my" opinion) you can trace the problem to people not making their intentions clear.

With the exception of the entitlement bit, I can understand a lot of what the OP is saying. Though, I always felt that the "Friend-zone" was just a simple explanation of where you are in your relationship with another person. If you are just a friend, and will never be anything but that, it is fair to say you are in the "Friend-zone."

One note: I would say that when a female friend complains to me that one of her male friends sees her as "Just another one of the guys," it is the equivalent of a male bitching about being "Friend-zoned." In my experience, the woman who complains of being viewed as "Just another one of the guys," often talks about it in a way that suggests she is entitled to a relationship with the male of her focus.

In other words, this habit is by no means a male-only occurrence and shouldn't be treated as such.

llagrok:

Michael Logan:
The term friendzone is just to make people who get rejected feel good about themself. Kind of like how ugly people say that beauty comes from within.

You couldn't be further off base.

One is a loose term about how people either try to jump from being friends to lovers, or find themselves friends with the girl they wanted to date. This has no positive associations. Why would this be a term created to make people feel good about themselves? Nobody thinks this is a good thing.

The second is a rejection of how media's sold you on what's beautiful and what isn't. Go back a few years and the trait people wanted in women were good child-bearing hips.

These two are not similar in the least.

I guess so, what I meant was that when someone gets rejected they can tell themself that it wasnt their fault(for being ugly, boring or whatever.) its because the girl put them in the friendzone, its out of their control.

Phasmal:
I've heard `dating is expensive` several times, but I dont think I've ever had or been expensive during dating. I initially go out with boyfriend, neither of us have jobs, we go to a restaurant (our first date was on my birthday), he buys because its my birthday, cost him maybe 25 (less in dollars but I dont know how much and cba to google it). Next month is his birthday, I pay for us to go out.

I can't say I have cost my boyfriend any more than he has cost me.

It sounds like you both understand that money is going to be tight in the relationship so I would call your relationship a statistical outlier. I also don't know what the social norm is in the UK for dating. In the US the social norm is that more often than not the man will cover any expense during an outing. However, sometimes the couple will "go Dutch" or split the bill in half. The male is also expected to buy gifts for the female every once in a while.

Also...
>1 Pound = about $1.50 US
>25 Pounds = about $39.65 US

A meal for two under $40.00 US is a pretty good deal at a middle class restaurant, but meals will be $40.00+ US per person at an upper-middle class restaurant.

I'm sure you cost each other more than 25 Pounds a year, but reguardless I know for a fact that most coupples in the US spend way more than $80.00 US on each other per year.

Char-Nobyl:

artanis_neravar:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.

*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?

Yes, it is, while they are fun people to be around I am not attracted to any of them physically. If I was physically attracted to them then I might consider a romantic relationship with them.

artanis_neravar:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.

Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?

Physical attraction is a major part of any attraction, if you aren't attracted to someone then the relationship will never work, so yes physical attraction plays a very big part in who I am willing to date.

And before anyone tries to call me shallow, it works the other way to, if I find a girl physically attractive, but don't like her personality then I won't date her.

Sarge034:
Snip.

Yeah that was an example from the first two months of us dating, since then there has been times when I've worked and he hasnt and when (like now) he's working and I'm not. (Its complicated, I got hit by a mystery illness). But we used to maintain a you-pay-I-pay thing when we went out, and every other couple I know does it too, but I don't know much about the US (as evidenced by getting the pound and dollar thing mixed up).
He only gets me gifts if its an occasion and thats standard as far as I know.
But now we've been together long enough its `our` money now, no matter who brings it in.

I'll be mean and direct : In a majority of friend zone cases, that troll Onjenae is right. However she/he/it worded it to sting rather than provide a reality check.

I'll provide the reality check.

Yet it remains: often the guy who is crushing on a girl and ends up friend-zoned, has few, if nothing to show that he might be attractive enough to be even a casual hook-up. Quite a few of these are nerds or socially awkward, either scrawny or fat, unkempt, with weird or unpopular side gigs, dressed by their moms with next to no knowledge about male fashion and dressing right, and low assertiveness and high shyness level.

If they would work on these issues and improve themselves physically, like hit the gym, dress nicer, use fitting colors, go out in social clubs and meet out new people with no ulterior motives behind their head than networking, meeting new people, and having fun, and take the energy to invest in themselves not only the pool of girls they'd meet would grow, but they would be actually showing attractive traits like determination, ambition, drive, maturity, growing up, fitness, etc. To get high, you have to start low.

It's sad, because a lot of these guys, if they took the time and effort to work on their appearance, would be much more marketable as potential mates. Girls and women want a guy they can show around as theirs, they want some sort of bragging rights, if only to say "See my guy over here who looks good? He's MY guy. I'm in love with him."

Also, and tangently linked to the above, a lot of crushers that have weaseled themselves into into romantic dead-end zones are crushing on a woman a lot of guys would, in fact, find attractive and who have much more options available to them than their little guy friend pining for her over there. Guys want bragging rights as well, however you don't hear them whine about being friend-zoned by the 200-pounded, bottled-eyes shy girl who hangs up with the girl posse because she's desperate for friends.

Odds are, the crushee is quite attractive, and she's like a buoy to her crushing boy. Hence why they invest A LOT emotionally in this "relationship". A lot of them haven't accepted that first they have to go where they can fit in right now, rather than aiming too high without having the goods to show they deserve that high. But no, the girlfriend has to be cute and attractive. Why aim for little miss plain, shy Jane over there who's never kissed a boy, when you can be friends and have the lottery ticket with Miss Queen Popularity who's so hot and so nice with you. If she's so nice with me, maybe it's because she finds me... cute?

Now if they took the time to work on themselves to improve their attractiveness and their social intelligence AND stopped to rate potential girlfriends on how "hawt" they'd be around their arms to show to their guy friends, their chances would improve significantly. Odds are, for every guy being friend zoned by a hot girl, there's a girl, not necessarily among the most attractive of ducklings, who's crushing on him right now.

Vegosiux:

artanis_neravar:
"I don't find you attractive" is the polite way to say it.

No, it's the way of saying it that correctly relays the fact that it's a subjective opinion.

If you say "You're unattractive", you are not relaying that. "Unattractive" would be something (nearly) nobody could ever be attracted to, ever.

For example, you talk about models. Am I attracted to them? Nah. Do I think they're unattractive? No, since considering they attract quite some people, there must be something making them attractive.

Or let me try an analogy. You're at a friend's place for lunch, and they make something you don't really like. Does the fact that you didn't like the meal make them a shitty cook? I didn't think so.

Unattractive is subjective, as I said, so my saying that someone is unattractive should only be taken as my subjective opinion. Most models are unattractive, because I find them unattractive. Could I expand on that more? Sure. Do I have to to get my point across? Nope.

Would I say that my friend is a bad cook? No, but I would say that the food was bad.

artanis_neravar:

Char-Nobyl:

artanis_neravar:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.

*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?

Yes, it is, while they are fun people to be around I am not attracted to any of them physically. If I was physically attracted to them then I might consider a romantic relationship with them.

artanis_neravar:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.

Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?

Physical attraction is a major part of any attraction, if you aren't attracted to someone then the relationship will never work, so yes physical attraction plays a very big part in who I am willing to date.

And before anyone tries to call me shallow, it works the other way to, if I find a girl physically attractive, but don't like her personality then I won't date her.

I think part of tthe discussion needs to be "why do women never seem to see nice guys as attractive, only being friend material?" To use image exploitation memes, Good Guy Greg will never get laid. EVER. While the Scumbag Steves keep getting with his friends. Why is this pattern so prevalent? I'm no female, but I would say most of my friends who've been friendzoned were actually pretty good-looking. One theory I have: the nice guy is clearly interested in a committed relationship, while the other guy promises instant gratification. The nice guy won't pursue sex at first becauuse he doesn't want the girl to feel used. He doesn't ask her out because he doesn't want to seem like all he wants is sex. Meanwhile, the other guy comes in and promises everything on the spot. What baffles mee is why while men are pigs, men that are not pigs get turned down time and again for men who are. Being friendzoned is one thing, but in every time I've seen, it is always coupled with the scumbag rival getting the girl and inevitably hurting her later by being, well, a scumbag.

I've only been friendzoned a couple times, and yeah it hurts a bit, but also on the other hand I have almost no female friends that I've not been involved with first... so maybe I'm doing it the wrong way... lol

Char-Nobyl:

artanis_neravar:
No I am not, just because a girl doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean that she only dates jerks.

That's correct. It just means that she loses all credibility when she complains about how "all guys r dicks" while on the hunt for a better-looking version of her rejected male friend.

artanis_neravar:
The girl never asked the guy to stay around until she finds another guy, the girl believes that this guy is her friend. If your friend has always made himself available for you to talk to why should you believe that this has changed

Possibly because you revealed that your only reason for rejecting his attempt at a relationship is your belief that you can find someone just as good but better looking.

artanis_neravar:
I am not attracted to them because, while I like their personality traits, I do not find them attractive.

*facepalm*

Okay, then humor me a bit further: is this a lack of physical attraction that you're talking about? And, for bonus points, is the reason for it because of their appearance (ie, you don't think they're good looking), or because you can't view them as romantic partners because of how your existing friendship/interactions affects how you view them?

Or, a bit more frankly: if they were better looking (up to your ideal), would you consider romantic advances if they were presented to you?

artanis_neravar:
No you can't because physical appearance has no bearing on a job. So in order to make a proper comparison you need to change appearance to something that has bearing on whether or not you are hired, like education.

Okay. Then tell me: how does physical appearance affect someone's candidacy as a dating prospect? And we're not talking about extremes, either (ie, Igor vs Adonis). Do you really consider it just as important that your partner be a knockout as you would a prospective doctor having graduated from medical school?

I will supplement your point via my example. I am painfully friendzone-prone, coupled with my family-troubles-related depression. That being said, I won my fiancee by being her best friend and showing that a relationship with me would be rewarding emotionally, etc etc saving you a wall of text. I would not, however, call myself very physically attractive. I am short and slightly overweight, and have a permanent cough from chemical lung damage. My lack of aattractiveness did not matter in thhe slightest in the face of everything else I could do. After many failures and despite my shortcomings, I am an example of what most Nice Guys wish would work with women. What is sad is that emotional happiness does not seem to be on the minds of most women. To note, I became more attractive to her as her feelings for me grew, since personal aesthetics change with emotions. As already subjective as attractiveness is, it definitely isn't set in stone for the beholder either.

CAPTCHA: sick puppy
SOLVEmedia, I am offend

Phasmal:
Snip

Eventually every relationship I have been in has moved to that system if it lasted long enough, but that is a big if. With initial costs as high as they are for a relationship and the current economy it is just a lot of risk for a guy to make that jump without knowing quite a bit about the lady he is trying to date. That is why I don't understand the whole friend zone thing. Being a friend is basically a chance for people to learn about each other without taking a blind leap into just another relationship.

Off topic. I hope you get well soon.

Thank you for apologising OP. Now apologise for starting a flame war, because my hate cannons are ready to fire.

The basis of your argument appears to be,

"We can't help it if we don't like you" and "How dare you like us just for a relationship pursuit".

Firstly, duh, that's how the world works. That's how guys are. We CAN'T HELP IT EITHER IF WE LIKE YOU LIKE THAT. Please, reread that. Now, stop whining that you lose friends over it. As a guy, I've lost contact with female friends becuase they've liked me and I didn't reciprcate affection. The friend zone works both ways. Attraction works both ways. Stop trying to convince us that its all scumbag "nice guys" who are baaawing here. Girls do the exact same thing.

EDIT: Double post. Damn you captcha!

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