Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

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Onjenae:

VeryOddGamer:

Onjenae:

aww nice guy got his feelings hurt dont get mad at me because you dont get laid :)

Well, TheVioletBandit's post summed up my opinion of you quite well. Also, from you not using proper grammar, I can also come up with the conclusion that you're either trolling, lazy, stupid or just not giving a damn.
So, just to remind you, you are

TheVioletBandit:
extremely shallow, arrogant, hateful, and judgmental.

look little boy i dont give a damn what you think honestly lol and im typing on my phone do not have time to do a gramamr check. I could see if i was writing a school papaer but then again who are you a ncie guy who doesnt get laid lol

losers like you think woman owe you something and you despise the bad boys becasue they actually get girls and dont spend their time on the net pondering why women date attractive men

At this point I might remind you that so far, the only thing I've said here is calling you

TheVioletBandit:
extremely shallow, arrogant, hateful, and judgmental.

I have not mentioned anything about women OR relationships OR douchebags. Also, you have no information about my personal life, making your insults laughable. Also also, can I give you a tip for the future? When arguing with someone, don't immediately jump into insults. They make you look immature and just plain wrong.

Xangba:

ElPatron:
And again the Escapist sank in an argument about entitlement.

I thought most "friendzone" posts were supposed to be about girls who repeatedly commit the mistake of dating jerks.

I am talking about people stupid enough to start dating just because a guy paid her a beer while the proverbial "nice guy" is doing her laundry or something.

It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with people too stupid to take a hint.

That was what I thought, didn't realize so many viewed it as the guys problem instead of the standard "She dates ass, gets fucked over, complains about no nice guys" thing.

But hey message out to you guys and gals in the "friend zone," your time will come around, and because you're the kind to be friends first you'll have some of the best relationships. Just can't let a few bumps trip you up.

thats because your always asking other nice guys lol

i love alpha men because they dont complain about shit like this they take charge and go with the flow .

All I hear when I get friend zoned all I hear in my head is "You're just too fat" or "I just want a sparkly young vampire/ fashion model" or she wants to marry prince Harry. either way my logical mind can't comprehend the thought process breaks down and lights up the flee signs after the assault of Illogical logic.

I don't really think the friendzone exists, the people who get 'friendzoned' probably never had a chance. All the 'Any girl would be lucky to have you' stuff is just to let them down easy. That said, it's never happened to me personally, in fact, I've had a couple of relationships that sort of grew out friendships, so I have pretty much no experience on the matter.

I try to be as nice as I can and I expect nobody to owe me anything for that, to be honest. I can't see why this "friend zone" thing is even an issue. I guess it can hurt to be friend-zoned, but please, stop being so solipsistic, it's not only about your feelings, desires and wishes. That seems to be hard to realise for some people, since this thing is - unfortunately -, still an issue.

Onjenae:
snip

To sum this up, nice guys aren't fake guys trying to get laid, those are creepers and fall under the "asshole she complains about" category. The "nice guy" is the one who was a friend first and treats her well, then develops romantic interest during that. The nice guy is not the one who thinks "If I'm nice to her she'll screw me! Yay!" Clearly you've had a terrible experience, have a clouded view of things, and from the sound of things are the kind who jumps into bed with anyone manly enough to be "real" enough to be an ass. Being "real" isn't being an asshole, that's just what some people are.

Anyway, I'm done talking with someone who clearly only requires that someone have a good body and will jump into bed with them in a heartbeat.

museofdoom:

you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

I'm bloody awful for that. I'll talk to a girl when I first meet her and as soon as i hear the phrase 'My boyfriend...' I just glaze over and wait for them to stop talking and then walk away.

In my defence im not really incredibly mysoginistic. I don't even bother talking to guys unless its absolutely nesseceary.

EDIT: Its worth pointing out Nice Guy is differernt to Good Guy. Nuce guy is basically a soppy wet ponce of a bloke who will let any woman walk over him and is desperate to be liked in some kind of romantic or sexual sense, which is incredibly unnatractive. Good guy on the other hand is just someone whos genuinely a pleasent person and will be respectful but not walked over.

Personally im awful with women. Im either the epitomy of Nice Guy or im just an utter arsehole.

Onjenae:

VeryOddGamer:

Onjenae:

aww nice guy got his feelings hurt dont get mad at me because you dont get laid :)

Well, TheVioletBandit's post summed up my opinion of you quite well. Also, from you not using proper grammar, I can also come up with the conclusion that you're either trolling, lazy, stupid or just not giving a damn.
So, just to remind you, you are

TheVioletBandit:
extremely shallow, arrogant, hateful, and judgmental.

look little boy i dont give a damn what you think honestly lol and im typing on my phone do not have time to do a gramamr check. I could see if i was writing a school papaer but then again who are you a ncie guy who doesnt get laid lol

losers like you think woman owe you something and you despise the bad boys becasue they actually get girls and dont spend their time on the net pondering why women date attractive men

I feel that most people already pointed out how annoyingly shallow you really are though I'm getting fed up with your judgemental arse talk right about now.
Look girl, I can get that you probably had some experience with a fake 'nice guy' that wants to get into your pants and you rejected him and he went all soggy like getting back to you all day. The thing is - a real nice guy isn't like that. You just had a bad experience and because of it you're blaming all men to be swines looking for a fuck and being manipulative about it to get it. Judging by your choice of words, sentences and grammar, I'd say you're still in high school. You're in the whole social hierarchy of today's world, whereas the assholes are in high standing because hey, being able to push other people over makes you look self confident and being an ass to others gives of this vibe that you're invincible and not a push over yourself, its what girls want when they're in their teenage years. Naturally you go for those kind of guys, and you get laid with them. (just going to point it out - you really seem to think that's the importance of a relationship, probably you're one of those girls that enter a relationship for 3 days, then break up and feel absolutely nothing about it, yeah. That's not a relationship, that's a fuckbuddy at best)

Your view of the 'nice guy' is twisted and torn, all people that treat you nice are socially awkward ugly little nerds that do not deserve my attention. Trust me, once high school is over you'll find that the real world is nothing like what you've experienced your whole life so far.

Well, that certainly makes sense, but quite often I've known girls to really lead on guys and only when the guy actually says he likes her, she slaps him with a big ol' friend zone tag.

Also, from personal experience, after you've said you like them and get friend-zoned, the friendship becomes awkward, and it doesn't feel very nice to see them, y'know because they involuntarily crushed you. And why the hell should I care if she feels I was only her friend to try get in her pants? It wasn't my intention to make her think that way, just like it wasn't her intention to hurt my feelings when she rejects me, the crazy train bitch.

Onjenae:
really it should be fake guy who pretends to be a certain way to get pussy vs real guy who gets pussy being the way he is

So a person can't be nice to approach women? There is nothing fake about being nice is a person is truly nice.

And the "jerk" is the kind of guy that the "girl" in this story is going to cry about. i.e. she doesn't really like that guy of guy, but she is too stupid to know better.

I can safely say that at least 10% of the women in this world have the IQ low enough to be considered legally retarded. I don't know the percentage of men with low IQ but in 10 women there is always one who is simply dumb.

And I don't mean "spiders are insects"-dumb.

I mean "Morgan Freeman is my favorite scientist"-dumb.

I don't think the "friend zone" even exists. She either likes you, or she doesn't. I understand that's quite a black-and-white outlook, but that's how it is. You never would've had a chance in the first place, so it'd make no difference whether you made a move six weeks ago.

Also, from personal observations, the best way to find a partner is to stop looking. You know, make friends without any ulterior motives, and if you both happen to like each other, then I guess you just...start dating one another.

Onjenae:
The friend zone does not exist usually guys that get put in the friendzone are either losers or very unattractive no offense.

Nice. I'm female and have lots of male friends (I guess I can be a bit of a bloke sometimes :P ). None of them are losers or what I would consider unattractive. Some of them are in relationships. Men and women CAN be friends without there being an element of sexual attraction. I know this from personal experience.

I don't think either person in that situation has a right to get angry. The pain the person who gets friend-zoned feels often comes from the fact that the other person shows slight hints of attraction, which the other person takes incredibly serious. So yeah, don't give fake hints that you like someone, especially when you believe they like you.

Relish in Chaos:
I don't think the "friend zone" even exists. She either likes you, or she doesn't. I understand that's quite a black-and-white outlook, but that's how it is. You never would've had a chance in the first place, so it'd make no difference whether you made a move six weeks ago.

Also, from personal observations, the best way to find a partner is to stop looking. You know, make friends without any ulterior motives, and if you both happen to like each other, then I guess you just...start dating one another.

Aye, normally almost from the moment you meet someone you can tell if its going to be a romantic interest or a friend interest.

Onjenae:

look little boy i dont give a damn what you think honestly lol

if you're going to bother telling people your opinions, at least have some decency to listen to others

for instance after seeing how

Onjenae:

one i find sexcually attractive the other i let him do my laundry then laugh at him thinking how lame this dude is thinkinhg im gonig to sleep with him just for being nice to me.

contradicts

Onjenae:
I wish more women were like me I do not hang around or associate with males that call themselves nice guys which is ually code for pushover , cornball,creep,or just very unattractive socially awkard male

i can safely agree that you are

TheVioletBandit:
extremely shallow, arrogant, hateful, and judgmental.

however, i do agree with some of what you say. "nice guys" are passive aggressive and usually get rejected. its a shame that so many exist and use the friend-zone as a fašade for their behavior. perhaps they invented the friend-zone, perhaps not. but its there all people who fall into there and thats not cool.

while i can claim to have be (or been, if im improving) a "nice guy", i don't think i've ever cried friend-zone (i don't think the term existed then) but for people who are passive aggressive, it does feel that way. somehow i genuinely believed i was in the right, and it took a serious retrospect to realize just how pathetic my intentions were.

Starik20X6:
I've been friend zoned before, due to the way my mind worked at the time. Thus, I've worked out more or less how to minimise friend zoning. Girls, feel free to correct any wild misconceptions I've grown:

As far as I can tell, it's not about "girls like douchebags", it's "girls like confidence". Problem is, the douchiest people tend to be the most confident ones, thus being perceived as more attractive. You can be a nice person and still be confident. It's about not being a wimp, about not taking crap from anybody without spewing crap yourself. Also, you need to have a life and be your own person before she comes along. Despite what rom coms might tell you, you shouldn't need anybody to 'complete' you.

You, sir, get a cookie. Again, people get "friend-zoned" for a few reasons
1.she does not find you physically attractive
2.You have no confidence (which is killer in ANYTHING life throws at you)
3.You don't act romantic at all. Kind of hard for him/her to consider you in such a way if you don't present yourself that way at some point.

Eamar:

Onjenae:
The friend zone does not exist usually guys that get put in the friendzone are either losers or very unattractive no offense.

Nice. I'm female and have lots of male friends (I guess I can be a bit of a bloke sometimes :P ). None of them are losers or what I would consider unattractive. Some of them are in relationships. Men and women CAN be friends without there being an element of sexual attraction. I know this from personal experience.

Im bloody lost. Friend Zone? Does that just mean a guy and a girl being friends? Or one leading the other on romantically and then suddenly pulling back and being all 'noooo, we're just friends'?

Cos of course guys and girls can be friends. Im a bloke and I only have one male friend. In fairness thats probably why I get nowhere with girls. I know firsthand how bloody mental they all are.

Can i also point out how obviously Onjenae is a guy Trollin? Or a girl trollin' I don't want to be sexist.

I'm friends with mostly girls and you sir/madam are not presenting youself like a girl who goes for the bad boys/dislikes nice guys would.

You are presenting youself like a boy pretending to be a girl who likes alpha males. You are actively making yourself out to be a villian. Which suggests you are not who you say you are but someone pretending to be a person which they have no idea of the thought process behind.

I don't know any girls who talk about nice guys like that. Find them a bit boring yes, but actively boast about how they use them to do their laundry? Nah.

Heres your ass, I believe it has just been handed to you sir.

A week ago i would be whining, that friend zone just sucks. Now i will be happy for that.

now... if you are stuck in friend zone, just move on... and remember there are people in a less fair situation than you, so instead of bitchin about how bad your situation is, just find another girl...

museofdoom:
Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Ah the not-so-elusive friend zone. I'm a staunch opposer of the friend zone mainly because I just don't think it's fair to try and bitch out of a no and try and save it with a sentence. Has anyone, man or woman, who has used the friend-zone, thought that maybe they don't want to be friends after they've been rejected. It's kind of a dick move to think that "I still want to be friends," can save a friendship after you've possibly just ripped your friends heart out.

Just say "no, I'm not into you," and stop bitching out of it. Let them decide if they want to be friends with you.

Basically, the friend-zone is a zone reserved for the use of cunts only. Bite the fucking bullet once in a while and just say no.

captainfluoxetine:

Eamar:

Onjenae:
The friend zone does not exist usually guys that get put in the friendzone are either losers or very unattractive no offense.

Nice. I'm female and have lots of male friends (I guess I can be a bit of a bloke sometimes :P ). None of them are losers or what I would consider unattractive. Some of them are in relationships. Men and women CAN be friends without there being an element of sexual attraction. I know this from personal experience.

Im bloody lost. Friend Zone? Does that just mean a guy and a girl being friends? Or one leading the other on romantically and then suddenly pulling back and being all 'noooo, we're just friends'?

Cos of course guys and girls can be friends. Im a bloke and I only have one male friend. In fairness thats probably why I get nowhere with girls. I know firsthand how bloody mental they all are.

You're right, they are separate things, but a lot of people seem to mix them up. What I was trying to say (admittedly not very clearly) is that if I found out that one of my male friends was attracted to me (and I was single), I would turn them down because they are my friends and I just can't think of them in "that" way. They have genuinely been "friend zoned." Therefore, contrary to what Onjenae was saying, the friend zone does exist and not everyone in it is a loser or unattractive. I did get a bit off-topic though.

Actually, while we're on the subject of friend zoning, few people seem to talk about the fact that guys can do it too. It's funny to look back on now, but my best friend and I were initially attracted to each other when we first met. However, since then we've got to know each other and he really is the best friend I've ever had. We look back on that initial attraction and laugh. We've both managed to friend zone each other :P

Apologies, that second paragraph's not really relevant to anything, but this thread made me think of it and it made me smile.

Since there seems to be several ideas of the "friend-zone" here's mine: Guy/girl is friends with someone. Said person begins to see them in a romantic way and believing there is a chance, most often due to comments from the other person such as "You're a great person!" or "Anyone would be lucky to be with you.". Said person attempts to pursue this, not actually asking them out from nowhere but by presenting themself as a romantic option, and is shot down, despite being what (s)he claims to want. The other way is someone who honestly rejects the friend to avoid any complications to the friendship, but from what I've seen that being the real reason is kind of rare.

In my view of it, it only becomes the "friend zone" (other than the short literal one I said above) after presenting yourself as a potential partner instead of a friend, and after some kind of indication from the other person that they think highly of you and may be interested. You can't blame a person for shooting you down that shows no interest whatsoever. I also think we need avoid making this out as such a bad thing, because if you were friends first and became romantically interested afterwards, then all the qualities you like are still there and you still have your friend. Endless moping around about it is what people don't like. That isn't saying it doesn't suck to have one-sided feelings, but don't make it seem like the world hates you for it. Pick yourself up, enjoy your friend, and get back out there.

EDIT: To clarify, there isn't really any blame to be had in these situations. That's just how it's going to be, and you can't blame someone for not being attracted to you the same way you are to them. Unclear signals and poor communication tend to cause the problems, so just be direct.

Onjenae:
lmaooo you must be one of the lsoers who stay getting friendzone by the ladies lmaoooo keep up with the good luck young man

Welcome to the Escapist. Let's see how long you last.

OT: I can't really say much on the topic. I've been "friendzoned" before, but I never really whine and bitch about it. As someone before me pointed out, whining is useless.
Also:

Just_A_Glitch:
This is something that a girl should not ever say to a guy though if she knows the guy has romantic feelings for her. It serves no purpose and its really hurtful. Pretty much tells the guy that he's not good enough for her.

tobi the good boy:
That's cool, Just don't complain when a guy says "No I don't want to be friends" to the whole "I think we should just be friends thing". If they were hoping for a purely romantic involvement and you have no intention of providing but instead offer an alternative that, from my observations, only seems to appeal to one party and causes pain on the other. Than they are well within their rights to stop being friends.

Some guys lose contact with their ex's because they couldn't provide on a romantic level. Same situation.

These two make a shitload of sense. Read them.

Xangba:

ElPatron:
And again the Escapist sank in an argument about entitlement.

I thought most "friendzone" posts were supposed to be about girls who repeatedly commit the mistake of dating jerks.

I am talking about people stupid enough to start dating just because a guy paid her a beer while the proverbial "nice guy" is doing her laundry or something.

It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with people too stupid to take a hint.

That was what I thought, didn't realize so many viewed it as the guys problem instead of the standard "She dates ass, gets fucked over, complains about no nice guys" thing.

But hey message out to you guys and gals in the "friend zone," your time will come around, and because you're the kind to be friends first you'll have some of the best relationships. Just can't let a few bumps trip you up.

My experience of being on the girl end of the friend zone thing was nothing to do with me `dating asses` but more to do with me not dating the certain ass who had decided being my friend entitled him to more.
The guy in this situation will generally moan about the girl's boyfriend `being an ass` even if he has never met him or heard anything about him, because they assume that to be so.

It's just creepy the way guys go `She shouldn't be dating him, she should be dating me` as if they know what is best for someone else. They don't.

It generally is the guy's problem. It is horrible to have someone you thought of as a friend spring something like that on you, and even worse to have to try and let them down gently. I'm not saying you can't be friends before you go out, but hiding your feelings and then suddenly coming out with them is an awful awful idea.

Onjenae:
lmaooo you must be one of the lsoers who stay getting friendzone by the ladies lmaoooo keep up with the good luck young man

HA!

It's funny because you're an awful person.

Palademon:
How about when they say "any girl would be lucky to have you"?
Can I be annoyed then?

I don't usually complain about the other things but this really gets to me.

That depends. Did you make your feelings clear to her at any point before or after that?

OT: I think the problem with the friendzone and 'nice guys' is based around a failure to communicate.

I'm speaking mostly from a teenage perspective here, so keep that in mind.

While there are, without a doubt, guys who believe if they're nice enough and 'sweet' enough they'll get laid, there are plenty who just don't know what to do. I'm not saying that in a mocking way - nobody's given a book on how to attract a potential mate. It boils down to experience and trial and error. And, in all honesty, almost the logical thing to do is be nice to her, comfort her and buy her gifts. It's not the right thing to do at all, as most guys eventually learn, but when you're thirteen and you first meet a girl you have no fucking clue what to do. Some take to it better than others for whatever reason but some fall back on the idea that being nice and kind and being what they believe to be a really good friend will build up enough trust for a relationship.

Now this of course, for a multitude of reasons, isn't the right thing to do. But there is an issue in which girls, especially young teenage girls, give either mixed signals or outright fail to handle the situation effectively. If a guy attempts to woo the fairer sex by being a 'nice guy' and she turns around and says 'I'm not attracted to you for x, y, z but I like having you as a friend' then most of the time, in my experience anyway, it'll work out. It's a clear statement of intent, and while the guy will be hugely frustrated at the situation, over a fairly short period of time he'll understand and comprehend.

But that can only happen if the girl is open and direct. It's staggering how many times I've seen guys yanked about the chain by girls they like by complete accident. The girls aren't trying to manipulate them or toy with them - most of the time, they don't want to come out and hurt their feelings. There are of course the girls who see it as some kind of power trip, but there are also the guys who are put into similar situations and react just as maliciously.

The notion that it's a one way street and that all 'nice guys' are simply creepy weirdos is so fucking dense in its retardation I don't even know where to begin. A lot of guys genuinely think that's how they should act at a young age. Some grow out of it quicker than others and learn, and some are insecure jerks. Girls - and I'm not pointing and screaming IT'S ALL YOUR FAAAAAAAAAULT - frequently do not handle the situation as well as they should. Just as guys do not handle the situation as well as they should.

For most, the 'friendzone' and being a 'nice guy' is a learning experience. Just as their first relationship will be a learning experience. Just as their first kiss will be a learning experience. Just as their first time having sex will be a messy, awkward, probably emotionally and physically bruising experience.

You get my point.

Phasmal:

Xangba:

ElPatron:
And again the Escapist sank in an argument about entitlement.

I thought most "friendzone" posts were supposed to be about girls who repeatedly commit the mistake of dating jerks.

I am talking about people stupid enough to start dating just because a guy paid her a beer while the proverbial "nice guy" is doing her laundry or something.

It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with people too stupid to take a hint.

That was what I thought, didn't realize so many viewed it as the guys problem instead of the standard "She dates ass, gets fucked over, complains about no nice guys" thing.

But hey message out to you guys and gals in the "friend zone," your time will come around, and because you're the kind to be friends first you'll have some of the best relationships. Just can't let a few bumps trip you up.

My experience of being on the girl end of the friend zone thing was nothing to do with me `dating asses` but more to do with me not dating the certain ass who had decided being my friend entitled him to more.
The guy in this situation will generally moan about the girl's boyfriend `being an ass` even if he has never met him or heard anything about him, because they assume that to be so.

It's just creepy the way guys go `She shouldn't be dating him, she should be dating me` as if they know what is best for someone else. They don't.

It generally is the guy's problem. It is horrible to have someone you thought of as a friend spring something like that on you, and even worse to have to try and let them down gently. I'm not saying you can't be friends before you go out, but hiding your feelings and then suddenly coming out with them is an awful awful idea.

Well yeah, like I said a couple times saying it from nowhere without first presenting yourself as a romantic option is pretty stupid and never works out. Also I never said the whole "She should be with me!" thing. I was referring, as you quoted, to when a woman gets screwed over by a guy and complains about not being able to find a good guy.

I think in general men and women get too dramatic about relationships. Not every relationship needs to have a Romeo and Juliet beginning and a tragic misunderstanding of an end. And if a guy or gal gets rejected don't go pining after them like a lost puppy wanting a home. There 3.5 billion of each gender out there and the chances that you found the only pearl in all of them just for you (Luckily for you she lived in a 30 mile radius) is an absurd notion. Lady you're not incredibly special so if you find a guy that has qualities that you like, date him and see where it goes. And if dude she says no move on (be friends) and look past the women that live right beside you.

Also your shoe comparison is horrible. Men and women aren't shoes that have obvious traits observable from a cursory glance.

Xangba:

Well yeah, like I said a couple times saying it from nowhere without first presenting yourself as a romantic option is pretty stupid and never works out. Also I never said the whole "She should be with me!" thing. I was referring, as you quoted, to when a woman gets screwed over by a guy and complains about not being able to find a good guy.

Well I don't think thats a specifically bad thing.
Because generally, I don't think of my friends in a sexual or romantic way at all. So if I was complaining to a guy who was secretly all in love with me, if he had just presented himself as a friend I would have no idea.

Also, a guy `doing everything` for you is generally not attractive, its... kind of wimpy and strikes me as being manipulative. I'm probably going to get shit for saying that, but thats just how I think. Those guys tend to put the object of their affection on a pedestal, and thats just not good.

I disagree that Nice Guys think their entitled to a relationship. Yeah, they talk about how they were friend-zoned, and how it sucks. That's because it DOES suck. If you're interested in a girl, and they aren't interested in you, it can hurt ego, and it can be really disappointing. I don't think most of them are thinking "Why doesn't she want to be with me? She OWES this to me," I think their disappointed and want to vent. The ones they vent to, their friends, are basically being asked to support them. They understand that it isn't reasonable to expect every girl they like to like them back, but they also feel that it's unfair that whenever they find someone they think they can be close to, they're pushed away.

tl;dr
In essence, I think nice guys are disappointed, not self-entitled.

Kasurami:

Palademon:
How about when they say "any girl would be lucky to have you"?
Can I be annoyed then?

I don't usually complain about the other things but this really gets to me.

That depends. Did you make your feelings clear to her at any point before or after that?

That's actually what female friends who I know aren't interested in me tell me whenever I start making jokes about being alone, not when I'm confessing feelings. I'm only really mentioning it because it's depressing. I actually got told it by a gay guy once too. I just find it depressing in that situation because they certainly don't like me that way and I don't care that they don't, but it sort of implies that girls are failing simple logic to not be attracted to me, which is both ridiculous, and if true would be even more depressing.

I actually like my jokes about loneliness.
When I met up with some friends, I met a few of their university friends and we walked around the city, then went back to one of their houses, sat on their bed, next to their laundry, ordered pizza, and funnily enough stumbled into sexual conversation.
I said "I've only known this girl for two hours, and I've already gotten to her house, seen her underwear, been on her bed, and discussed how good she is at giving head."

Personally, I blame the media.

Think about it, what's the end of almost every movie, book, TV show or pretty much anything else ever? The hero "gets the girl". This breeds an entitlement complex among kids, making them believe that if they're a "good guy" they deserve a woman. Fact is, these kids don't actually see their female "friends" as friends, I'd go as far as to say they don't even really see them as people. They see them as a prize, something that society has set aside as a reward for them.

I don't think I need to tell anyone what's wrong with that way of thinking.

Phasmal:

Xangba:

Well yeah, like I said a couple times saying it from nowhere without first presenting yourself as a romantic option is pretty stupid and never works out. Also I never said the whole "She should be with me!" thing. I was referring, as you quoted, to when a woman gets screwed over by a guy and complains about not being able to find a good guy.

Well I don't think thats a specifically bad thing.
Because generally, I don't think of my friends in a sexual or romantic way at all. So if I was complaining to a guy who was secretly all in love with me, if he had just presented himself as a friend I would have no idea.

Also, a guy `doing everything` for you is generally not attractive, its... kind of wimpy and strikes me as being manipulative. I'm probably going to get shit for saying that, but thats just how I think. Those guys tend to put the object of their affection on a pedestal, and thats just not good.

Eh I should hope you don't get too much hate for saying someone shouldn't be put on a pedestal. But the "doing everything" is just something I do for all my friends regardless. I was raised as that small-town farmboy and it's just kind of my upbringing to do whatever you can for your friends.

Xangba:
Eh I should hope you don't get too much hate for saying someone shouldn't be put on a pedestal. But the "doing everything" is just something I do for all my friends regardless. I was raised as that small-town farmboy and it's just kind of my upbringing to do whatever you can for your friends.

Oh that kind of `doing everything` is okay if it's something you do for everyone, what I meant is when a guy always tries to do stuff for you and only you (if you like it or not). Afformentioned guy who thought I had friendzoned him would always try and carry things for me whether I liked it or not, it came to the point I had to just snap at him to cut it out when he was refusing to let me carry a bag with a can of cola and some gum in it (stuff I had bought).

A while ago, I had to friend zone a really good female friend who I just wasn't into and I also decided that I was a better friend than a boyfriend when it came to my ex. Romance, it's never easy.

I agree with the OP but I can't help but sympathise for the "friends". Its never pleasant getting turned down, or at least I imagine. I've always been asked, never asking.

I'm a good person, I'm attracted to a friend who has "friendzoned" me, and it's been 2 years and I haven't stopped being her friend. I might have been able to date her at one point, but I valued the friendship more than a potential romance so I didn't try.

Not all nice guys are "nice guys TM".

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