Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

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A.I. Sigma:
So he's only kind to her because he wants to be rewarded with a relationship? I hardly call that a good quality in any person.

It's not about being entitled. If he wants to stop being friends, then that's fine, but it really only shows that he was in it for a fuck. Unless he just feels too embarrassed/awkward to talk to her after being rejected, in which case, that's understandable.

Or maybe the guy is a dickhead for trying to do that in the first place. Don't blame the girl for something the guy is doing.

Not sure about OP, but I'm only referring to them within the context of this thread (and as a generalisation). Can't bet on how they treat other people, so I'm going to leave the unknown factor out of the discussion. Just thought I'd get that out there for you (if you reply) and future readers. :)

Does make her a bit of a dumbass, yes. Unless she's totally ignorant to his feelings...but yeah. Still stupid.

Um. Yes, you do. Perhaps you want red shoes (a good quality), but the shoes you see right now have heels that are too high for you to walk in (bad quality). And they also have a certain kind of strap or buckle that you really don't want on the shoe (an unwanted quality). So you go looking for another pair of shoes that have the good quality (the colour), but without the shitty strap and the ridiculous heel. It's something that is similar to what you had in mind, but certain aspects of it prevent you from buying to it. So you don't want the shoes, but you're going to keep looking for shoes that have the qualities you want.

(and I hate describing people as shoes, so I hope I never have to use that analogy again)

The analogy is, yeah. But it also gets across her point, so I'd call it successful, if rather shallow.

Can agree with that. Except I've had the 'nice guys' in real life. They've just carried on being friends with me, but sulked about me not liking them despite me never giving the impression that we were anything more than friends.

Isn't that why she posted here?

What? I never said that the guy is only kind because he wants to be rewarded.
The guys complain not because "Oh no I was nice to her and I didn't get into her pants" but because they despair at the idea that being a controlling, aggressive dickhead is the only way to get girls.
I think you would agree that it's a horrifying proposition.

Most of the time, I think that they stop talking because it's too painful to spend so much time with someone you want, but are never going to get.
And, yes it is about being entitled. She clearly expresses disapproval at the idea that someone would stop being friends with her because she rejected his advances.
And even IF we assume that the guy was just in it for the fuck, that would mean that they were never friends to begin with.
Do you really want the guy to keep pretending to like your personality?
How would that benefit anyone?
No matter what the scenario, not talking to the girl makes sense.

He's a dickhead for not liking the personality of a boring individual? What?
The fact that he wants sex somehow makes him a dickhead?
I'm not really sure where the hell you're coming from.

Well you can always conjure up imaginary strawmen to argue your point, but it defeats the purpose of the discussion if we're only talking about a fictional demographic, does it not?
Let's keep it real.

No, you think "I want red shoes," not "I want shoes that are qualitatively similar to these shoes."
If you don't like a particular character trait about a person (which you see as analogous to a certain unwanted quality in a shoe) then you don't want someone like the person.
You want someone who shares some characteristics, but you can't say "I want a guy like you"
That's just not true.
This also applies to your shoe analogy.
The metaphor holds true, but not in the way the author intended. It proves the opposing argument: that the girl never wanted a guy like him in the first place.

When I said that it was illogical, dishonest, etc... I was talking about "I want a guy like you," not her analogy
Her analogy is illogical and somewhat stupid, but it isn't manipulative or insensitive.
Just incorrect.

Why would you expect them not to feel down about being rejected?
I assume you don't act all cheerful when someone you like doesn't reciprocate.
Regardless of what impression was being given, being rejected sucks.

And no, that's not why she posted here.
She posted here to fulfill an ideological agenda and to vent her frustrations.
This is pure conjecture, but the tone of her post suggests that she herself friendzoned people.
She was frustrated by their reactions and subsequently decided to rage in a primarily male forum as a way of avenging this insult against herself.
She didn't do it because she wanted the male perspective.
Nowhere in her post does it suggest that that was her goal.

Slayer_2:
I understand there is a difference between someone being hot and being attractive to you, but a lot of these women used the term "ugly" to refer to physical attractiveness. Don't get me wrong, I greatly dislike the whiny "friend zoned" bullshit, but some of the ladies in this thread came across as very shallow, and general assholes.

Hmmm... maybe I've missed something, but I'd say there's only really one who's coming across that way to me. And in cases like that, especially when the word "ugly" is being thrown around, then yes I agree that is shallow and just as bad as the men this thread is supposed to be about. Personally, I always try to make a point of acknowledging that both genders are capable of equal amounts of assholery, especially where relationships are involved.

Don't despair of us Escapist ladies because of one or two bad apples mouthing off :P

Why is this directed toward men only? Women do this all the time as well! Hell, I've had a woman do it to me. She got super pissy that I wasn't attracted to her in the end, so we're no longer friends (plus, she clearly wasn't as nice as she made out she was).

Both genders are as stupid as each other.

I don't understand friendzone logic. Aren't you their friend to begin with? So if they say they like you as a friend, you are in the exact same place you were before. Also wtf is this being nice to get a girl bs. Your nice because your nice, if you have to be specifically be nice to have someone find you attractive, you are clearly looking at the wrong person.

Put it like this, being mean gets them to hate you.
Being nice gets them to talk to you.

museofdoom:
snip

I feel my views are highly relevant in regards to this topic. I live in the friend zone. I've been here for about 5 years now and, all said, it's comfortable enough. I have a large number of good friends as a result and wouldn't trade them i for a bit of evil, like many dudes I know. The reason for my being here is the simple fact that I get along better with women. Speaking generally, they're less prone to the tiresome tropes of the alphas and I find their qualities, both in terms of overt social interaction and covert manipulation, far easier to read.

The problem stems from the fact that, after a couple of years, you become a permanent "resident" of the friend zone. Though you may have no intention to try and pull any of your close friends therein, other females immediately associate you with the zone, removing you as a threat. This is FUCKING ANNOYING. There has been more than one occasion where I have been attracted to a woman and, knowing well the dangers of the friend zone, played my time carefully so as to make a move before risking giving the wrong impression. This has always been met with one of two responses: firstly, "I don't know you well enough" and secondly "I though we could just be friends". Do not get me wrong, I begrudge no one their right to choose their mate, but it is the assumption that I am not attracted to any women which frustrates me. The result? I've stopped trying. I have fully given up trying to find a mate. It has now been five years and I've glean more from befriending females than dating them. The majority of the girls I know treat their mates less than their friends anyway, so why bother? The world is twisted and dark and the friend zone makes celibates out of sexually inactive young men. That is how it is and how it always will be.

Raven's Nest:

archvile93:

I'm 22, got 2 more semesters, and the reason is because I never saw the point of spending all that money and time just for sex, and I never wanted companionship before. I figure if I really want it that badly I'll just hire a prostitute; it's quicker and even the most expesive ones are a lot cheaper. All that dating can really rack up the bills. I probably never will want it that much, but if for some strange reason I do it's out there.

My mistake, I assumed the 93 in your username was reference to date of birth (seemed likely).

Well I don't think it would take Sigmund Freud to work out that the problem isn't you don't know how to talk to and meet women. Its that you see woman as a disposable tool that only exist to serve you and make you feel better when you want it... That is really the complete and utter opposite of a healthy attitude.

I'll again assume you're from the states? As I know from a long thread about prostitution I did many moons ago, it seems that Americans are far more comfortable with using prostitutes than Brits are, which would explain the above paragraph. Now I'm not here to lecture you, if you want to have sex with a willing prostitute then go ahead. But if you ever seek a loving relationship, you ought to completely re-assess how you view women. I really don't see what other people have to offer me.

Dates needn't be expensive, neither do women. And there aren't many women worth dating who are solely interested in how much money you spend on them.

There isn't really much point in saying anything else because I don't know anything else about you.

Well to be fair I don't really see value in any kind of companionship, male or female, friendly or romantic. Also I never said I'd actually pay for a prostitute; so far I've been perfectly comfortable to go without. I was just saying it's a much quicker and cheaper alternative. I rarely talk with anyone unless it's relevant to some kind of goal I have, and stay indoors. I got TV and video games in here and so far there's never been anything beyond my home that I would consider enjoyable.

You know, this works both ways too. I've seen girls get friend-zoned just because they're not 8/10s and the guy's too shallow to see how much she cares. But I guess that's not deception, is it? The girl's still the victim there, right? Double-standards, much?

Also, you know how many times I've been stringed on just because some girl is a sucker for attention? And then one week either a) she suddenly refuses to look me in the eye anymore, answers everything with brief two-word quips, and although she denies that anything is wrong and she's totally not upset about anything, she's with another guy a week later and now I know why she doesn't want to talk to me anymore, or b) she just starts talking about all of the dates she has lined up in-between more or less sexually harassing me but I'm just so fucking desperate I play along because I'm a sucker for attention too. Only difference is I was serious about it.

Just to clarify: I'm not trying to say girls are evil, the whole dating scene these days is honestly pretty fucking horrific all around is you ask me. It all stems from something. Some gene got through and all the good ones died out along the line. I don't know where. I wish I could fix it. I can't. Oh well.

Xanthious:

Yosharian:
If it was as simple as 'talk to them', people wouldn't make threads on the internet about this kind of thing.

No it's obviously not as simple as talking to them but simply talking to them is a big hang up a lot of guys have. There are more fellas than you'd think that would sooner walk into a war zone than walk up and talk to a woman they find attractive. Another hang up is fear of rejection. I'd say those are probably the top two. If you can take a guy and teach him to approach women without pissing himself and not be terrified of rejection his odds of finding dates improves astronomically.

You seem to misunderstand the psychology at work here. Talking to women is not the problem. Ask any guy whether he has problems talking to his mother, or a girl they know they can't have, such as best mate's girlfriend. The reason guys can't talk to women is because they are afraid of many different things such as looking like an idiot, being told to fuck off, being found boring, looking like a desperate creepy guy, etc.

Number one idiotic piece of advice given to guys who have trouble meeting women is 'JUST TALK TO THEM'. Another gem is 'BE YOURSELF', I love that one.

Eamar:

Slayer_2:
I understand there is a difference between someone being hot and being attractive to you, but a lot of these women used the term "ugly" to refer to physical attractiveness. Don't get me wrong, I greatly dislike the whiny "friend zoned" bullshit, but some of the ladies in this thread came across as very shallow, and general assholes.

Hmmm... maybe I've missed something, but I'd say there's only really one who's coming across that way to me. And in cases like that, especially when the word "ugly" is being thrown around, then yes I agree that is shallow and just as bad as the men this thread is supposed to be about. Personally, I always try to make a point of acknowledging that both genders are capable of equal amounts of assholery, especially where relationships are involved.

Don't despair of us Escapist ladies because of one or two bad apples mouthing off :P

I count two, but don't worry, I'm not a generalizing idiot. If I was, I'd have to claim my own gender as the "meaner" gender. After all, we have had Hitler, Stalin, etc. Gender isn't really a good indicator of assholery, people from both can be equally terrible :P

I'm just surprised that such shallow jerks lurk these forums.

The secret is, just ask the girl. Don't be friends, don't wait or anything. Because she may like you to but if you act like a friend to her then she will treat you like one.

If you just want to be friends with her, fine. But if you really like her then just ask her out. If she says know then be a friend or leave, either way its better. No point starting a friendship when you want more. Believe me, i've been there.

Stilt:

VivaciousDeimos:

Stilt:
Ha only in this world is it creepy to love someone new and show it.

Uhhh, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying; it looks like Phasmal's got it covered though. See below.

Phasmal:
I'm saying they were talking about creepers cause of something I posted where someone was moaning I had friend-zoned them but they were acting like kind of a dick. So saying it was loving someone new is silly.

And if thats the way you wanna think about it, go ahead. All I can think is if you like a girl, make it known. If you wanna be a friend, be a friend, not a pretend-friend.

Pretty much this. And it's the "pretend-friend" people I have issues with. They are the creepers I was referring to.

Do you hate them for it? Its not like they asked to fall in love, people fall in love for retarded reasons that make no sense, unfortunately not all of us are rico suave

Do I hate them for what, exactly? I think you're still kinda missing the point. Obviously people can't help how they feel, but they can control how they behave. The specific type of people I'm talking about are jerks. Do I hate jerks? Kind of. The people that I was referring to are those who become friends with a girl specifically to be romantically involved with her, but do so on the pretext of friendship. That doesn't make you a friend, it makes you an asshole.

Also, I feel I should point out that I don't have a problem with people who are friends with a girl and then develop feelings for her; that's legitimate. It happens. I also don't have a problem with people who are interested in someone and want to be friends first--hey I like you, let's get to know each other and see where this goes--because then at least you're being honest about your intentions.

Please, Im the one who friends zones the ladies.

No, realy. Im the only male in my program's year. like 95% of the people I hang with are women-folk.

But on topic, I think that Guys and Gals have a diffrent understanding of 'friend'. For a dude a friend is a bro, someone who you would spend time with as a matter of course. They are your compadraies, the rest of your party. These are the people you take advice from and realy on. Ladies have that to, but they call this group their 'best freinds'. For them anyone who they dont hate are friends. A guy is 'freindly' with the same group that a girl would call friend. It seems like the the proplem is a misscomunication.

When a girl says "I just want to be friends" they are saying, "no, I dont hate you. I think your nice and I dont want you as an enemy, but I dont think we can be really close because [insert reason here]."

I honestly have no idea why this is, its somthing that ive noticed from interacting with two high density gender-homogenus groups. I think it might be that Tend and befreind thing thats been throw around.

what do you think everybody?

museofdoom:

Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities,but isn't attracted to you.

Are you sure that he was only friends with you to get into your pants? Because that is a rather dangerous and radical assumption. Some people can't stand being just friends with someone they have a deep affection for, you don't just shrug off longing for someone. You should be smart enough to know that telling a guy that you wish to find someone like him comes off as rather flirtatious and can be easily misinterpreted as a hint to be asked out. These men are not shoes, you don't waltz down the isle picking them off shelves just to set them back and your friends metaphor makes her seem rather monstrous and uncaring.

Slayer_2:
I count two, but don't worry, I'm not a generalizing idiot. If I was, I'd have to claim my own gender as the "meaner" gender. After all, we have had Hitler, Stalin, etc. Gender isn't really a good indicator of assholery, people from both can be equally terrible :P

I'm just surprised that such shallow jerks lurk these forums.

Takes all sorts to make a world and all that. But yes, this isn't exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to find on a gaming forum. I do sometimes wonder how some people find these forums in the first place, but then again that probably makes me guilty of generalising so... yeah :P

VivaciousDeimos:

Stilt:

VivaciousDeimos:

Uhhh, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying; it looks like Phasmal's got it covered though. See below.

Pretty much this. And it's the "pretend-friend" people I have issues with. They are the creepers I was referring to.

Do you hate them for it? Its not like they asked to fall in love, people fall in love for retarded reasons that make no sense, unfortunately not all of us are rico suave

Do I hate them for what, exactly? I think you're still kinda missing the point. Obviously people can't help how they feel, but they can control how they behave. The specific type of people I'm talking about are jerks. Do I hate jerks? Kind of. The people that I was referring to are those who become friends with a girl specifically to be romantically involved with her, but do so on the pretext of friendship. That doesn't make you a friend, it makes you an asshole.

Also, I feel I should point out that I don't have a problem with people who are friends with a girl and then develop feelings for her; that's legitimate. It happens. I also don't have a problem with people who are interested in someone and want to be friends first--hey I like you, let's get to know each other and see where this goes--because then at least you're being honest about your intentions.

But, no, it doesn't work like that. You make it sound so clinical like its all a choice, what if someone walked up to you and said "Hi, I think you are an attractive person and I would like to be friends first but then maybe take it to the next level kay?" Wouldn't that be creepy? What if you really have a crush on a girl and finally work up the courage to talk to her (not ask her out mind you), and you just end up being a friend? People dont necessarily have any intentions devious or otherwise when they go talk to someone they are attracted to, they simply want to let that person know they exist. Some people are better at communicating this than others, does that mean people who suck at communicating should just give up on developing a romantic relationship with people theyre infatuated with?

TheVioletBandit:

Onjenae:
The friend zone does not exist usually guys that get put in the friendzone are either losers or very unattractive no offense.

BTW i notice that nice guys seem to think they are entitled to women alot of you so called nice guys really creep me out

you act as if women belong to you and seem to be mad at the world because you rejected and noboyd wants to sleep with you.

Being nice does not make you an interesting person, a good person, does not mean you are attractive and I've notice unlike men , us ladies usually do not tell men we find unttractive that they are unattractive.

I wish more women were like me I do not hang around or associate with males that call themselves nice guys which is ually code for pushover , cornball,creep,or just very unattractive socially awkard male

trhe reason nice guys get the friend zone is not because of them being nice its because they are usually ugly as hell.

Wow, your post is just so extremely shallow, arrogant, hateful, and judgmental. I am really glad for those men you deem "ugly as hell" that you don't want to associate with them, and if you ever see me I hope you think I'm ugly as hell too so you'll stay the fuck away from me.

You are actually my hero.

I don't know who you are or where you are from, but if our paths ever cross I'm buying you drinks for a night.

EDIT - Totally fucked the quote, corrected.

Captcha: [respect me] LOL! No.

VivaciousDeimos:

Stilt:

VivaciousDeimos:

Uhhh, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying; it looks like Phasmal's got it covered though. See below.

Pretty much this. And it's the "pretend-friend" people I have issues with. They are the creepers I was referring to.

Do you hate them for it? Its not like they asked to fall in love, people fall in love for retarded reasons that make no sense, unfortunately not all of us are rico suave

Do I hate them for what, exactly? I think you're still kinda missing the point. Obviously people can't help how they feel, but they can control how they behave. The specific type of people I'm talking about are jerks. Do I hate jerks? Kind of. The people that I was referring to are those who become friends with a girl specifically to be romantically involved with her, but do so on the pretext of friendship. That doesn't make you a friend, it makes you an asshole.

Also, I feel I should point out that I don't have a problem with people who are friends with a girl and then develop feelings for her; that's legitimate. It happens. I also don't have a problem with people who are interested in someone and want to be friends first--hey I like you, let's get to know each other and see where this goes--because then at least you're being honest about your intentions.

I enjoy the way most of the people in this thread have not known what the fuck they're talking about, despite apparently living in the same reality as the rest of us.

1) No, the guy that is friends with the girl and then asks her out wasn't friends with her purely to get in her pants, that's a retarded oversimplification. The person that does that *ISN'T A NICE GUY*. It isn't a "No True Scotsman" when you say Scotsmen are Scotsmen and Russians aren't.

2) No one gives a fuck, in this scenario, about women who just come out and say what they mean. When someone says "I'm not interested in you," you have a clear-cut response to your question.

3) What we *DO* give a fuck about are women who start in with the "Let's just be friends," "I wish I could find someone like you," "Why are other guys such assholes" bullshit.

Maybe you *DO* just want to be friends. That's great. Don't start telling us how we'd be the perfect mate if we weren't your friend. Do we tell you you'd be the perfect size if you lost 20lbs?

4) We know women trend toward assholes because assholes have systems devoted to refining being an asshole - and they work *PHENOMENALLY* at picking up women. When we tell you that guy you're dating is an asshole who just wants to get in your pants, we're not being catty. That asshole just wants to get in your pants. Of course, when you finally figure this out and toss him, you come back to us and piss and moan about how you wish he could've been more like us.

Women go through the exact same shit with some guys, so don't pretend there's a male monopoly on believing women who do this are bitches. Guys who do it are dicks. The problem is that you start these stupid-ass threads talking about what a pain in the ass it is to have to deal with the guys (or girls) you've fucked over. If you break someone's heart and then proceed to dance on top of it, you need to learn to deal with the fallout from that.

If you can't deal with it, then stop jerking people around and say exactly what you mean. You don't like a guy who likes you? Tell him why. Maybe you can still be friends. Maybe, just maybe, the thing you don't like about him is something he can genuinely change (He's probably not going to start believing in Xenu, but maybe he'll quit smoking).

Just stop talking about how every goddamned guy you date is a pale reflection of him. That's what we really mean by "friend-zoned."

Gorrila_thinktank:
Please, Im the one who friends zones the ladies.

No, realy. Im the only male in my program's year. like 95% of the people I hang with are women-folk.

But on topic, I think that Guys and Gals have a diffrent understanding of 'friend'. For a dude a friend is a bro, someone who you would spend time with as a matter of course. They are your compadraies, the rest of your party. These are the people you take advice from and realy on. Ladies have that to, but they call this group their 'best freinds'. For them anyone who they dont hate are friends. A guy is 'freindly' with the same group that a girl would call friend. It seems like the the proplem is a misscomunication.

When a girl says "I just want to be friends" they are saying, "no, I dont hate you. I think your nice and I dont want you as an enemy, but I dont think we can be really close because [insert reason here]."

I honestly have no idea why this is, its somthing that ive noticed from interacting with two high density gender-homogenus groups. I think it might be that Tend and befreind thing thats been throw around.

what do you think everybody?

I was all ready to disagree with you until you mentioned what girls tend to mean when they say "let's just be friends," and that got me thinking. In that case, assuming she means it and she's not just saying it to let him down gently, then yes, I think you're right. Some people (not necessarily all women, but perhaps a higher proportion of them) do have different "grades" of friendship, or perhaps are just more comfortable throwing the word around.

If we do assume that your descriptions of friendship are correct, I guess I'm pretty "masculine" in terms of friendships. Actually, my friends do joke about how "manly" I am (I'm not butch, just to be clear, but I do have a lot of traditionally male character traits and interests). And they are mostly guys. And my best mate does describe me as his bro. And everyone says we have a bromance going on... Oh god. I'm such a man... :P

*Ahem* Got a bit distracted there. But back on topic, I think you make some interesting points. I'd say that maybe the types of friendship groupings have more to do with personality than gender specifically, but perhaps some personality types are more prevalent in one gender. You're probably onto something with what you say about what women mean by "let's just be friends" though.

Eternal Taros:
What? I never said that the guy is only kind because he wants to be rewarded.
The guys complain not because "Oh no I was nice to her and I didn't get into her pants" but because they despair at the idea that being a controlling, aggressive dickhead is the only way to get girls.
I think you would agree that it's a horrifying proposition.

The world is not black and white. There are a lot of shades of assertiveness between 'spineless' and 'controlling'.

Eternal Taros:
No, you think "I want red shoes," not "I want shoes that are qualitatively similar to these shoes."
If you don't like a particular character trait about a person (which you see as analogous to a certain unwanted quality in a shoe) then you don't want someone like the person.
You want someone who shares some characteristics, but you can't say "I want a guy like you"
That's just not true.

When I ask "Do you know what time it is?" I do not want a literal yes or no answer. A lot of things we say shouldn't be interpreted in a literal mathematical sense.

Especially not when it's women saying them =p

I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

Doctor Glocktor:
I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

What's with all the black and white thinking in this thread? There's a difference between getting to know someone a bit before making a move (hanging out a few times, perhaps with mutual friends or whatever), and being a "pretend friend" for a couple of years then acting all surprised and indignant when she doesn't return your feelings.

Purely anecdotal evidence, I know, but in my experience both my current, long-term relationship and the most successful relationships my friends have had have come about as a result of the middle ground. Not jumping straight in after ten minutes, but not waiting around for years either.

Thinking about it, I think the main problem with this thread is that people (not necessarily divided along gender lines) are misunderstanding each other, probably as a result of using their individual experiences as a template.

archvile93:

Well to be fair I don't really see value in any kind of companionship, male or female, friendly or romantic. Also I never said I'd actually pay for a prostitute; so far I've been perfectly comfortable to go without. I was just saying it's a much quicker and cheaper alternative. I rarely talk with anyone unless it's relevant to some kind of goal I have, and stay indoors. I got TV and video games in here and so far there's never been anything beyond my home that I would consider enjoyable.

If just getting your kicks is all you desired, then sure, a prostitute will serve you well, unfortunately (from my perspective) there's no shortage of them offering it.

It saddens me that you don't really value company of any kind. Surely as a psych major, you can see how this can pave the way for a really miserable existence?

"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Since I believe this quote very much, I won't jostle you for preferring your own company. But perhaps I'll simply say it's really worth coming out of your shell once in a while to see if the wind is blowing in a new direction...

If you like a girl, hang out with her frequently, learn her interests, if she has a boyfriend. Ask for a relationship as soon as possible, the longer you wait, the more time other guys have to ask her out. Be funny and confident around her and friends, if she is single, she will likely say yes.

Most guys who bitch about the friend-zone waited months to ask and that's not her fault, it's yours for being too shy to ask. Also, hate to say it, Many (being the key-word) who bitch about the friend-zone are just perverts who think being nice entitles them to sex and are trying to do their hot friends.

Eamar:

Doctor Glocktor:
I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

What's with all the black and white thinking in this thread? There's a difference between getting to know someone a bit before making a move (hanging out a few times, perhaps with mutual friends or whatever), and being a "pretend friend" for a couple of years then acting all surprised and indignant when she doesn't return your feelings.

Purely anecdotal evidence, I know, but in my experience both my current, long-term relationship and the most successful relationships my friends have had have come about as a result of the middle ground. Not jumping straight in after ten minutes, but not waiting around for years either.

Thinking about it, I think the main problem with this thread is that people (not necessarily divided along gender lines) are misunderstanding each other, probably as a result of using their individual experiences as a template.

Heh, I apologize. Still, when I see posts like:

museofdoom:

To summarize: If you are attracted to a girl, tell her upfront instead of being friends first because that's kind of deceiving and not a very nice thing to do because in the end you will both have hurt feelings.

I simply have to wonder what the hell people are thinking.

'Excuse me miss, I just wanted you to know I want to sex you. That is all.'

There is a LOT of extreme in this thread; that face that there are people saying 'HOW DARE YOU BE FRIENDS FIRST' is very, very silly.

Also, rejection hurts. To say someone is a jerk or whatever word you want to use over being sore from rejection is just being mean for the sake of some perceived injustice they've committed.

RvLeshrac:
I enjoy the way most of the people in this thread have not known what the fuck they're talking about, despite apparently living in the same reality as the rest of us.

1) No, the guy that is friends with the girl and then asks her out wasn't friends with her purely to get in her pants, that's a retarded oversimplification. The person that does that *ISN'T A NICE GUY*. It isn't a "No True Scotsman" when you say Scotsmen are Scotsmen and Russians aren't.

Annnnnd that brings us full circle to my original point. No, obviously not everyone does that, but there are people who do--of either gender--and they are commonly called "Nice Guys/Girls", which can lead to confusion when these threads pop up.

tobyornottoby:
The world is not black and white. There are a lot of shades of assertiveness between 'spineless' and 'controlling'.

What?
No kidding. What exactly is your argument here?
It's not about the distinction between spineless and not. The distinction is between a guy who cares about the girl and a guy who doesn't.
Not between one that is spineless and one that is controlling.

tobyornottoby:
When I ask "Do you know what time it is?" I do not want a literal yes or no answer. A lot of things we say shouldn't be interpreted in a literal mathematical sense.

Especially not when it's women saying them =p

Again, what?
No one is trying to answer anything in a mathematical sense.
No one even asked a question that was meant to be taken in a figurative manner.

If you are suggesting that "I want a guy like you" is somehow meant to be taken figuratively, then no, it's not.
There is a rational connection between being asked if you know the time, and giving it to the individual.
We assume that a person would not ask if one knows the time and simply leave it at that.
There is a rational connection between wanting to know if someone knows the time and wanting to actually know what time it is.

No such connection exists with regards to the "Guy like you" issue.
Interestingly, you offer no alternative interpretations, instead seeking refuge in the idea that we're missing something here.
What then, do you suggest she was trying to say?

tobyornottoby:
Especially not when it's women saying them =p

Stop being sexist.

Your responses either indicate that you completely fail to understand this thread and everyone in it, or that you are a troll.

Raven's Nest:

archvile93:

Well to be fair I don't really see value in any kind of companionship, male or female, friendly or romantic. Also I never said I'd actually pay for a prostitute; so far I've been perfectly comfortable to go without. I was just saying it's a much quicker and cheaper alternative. I rarely talk with anyone unless it's relevant to some kind of goal I have, and stay indoors. I got TV and video games in here and so far there's never been anything beyond my home that I would consider enjoyable.

If just getting your kicks is all you desired, then sure, a prostitute will serve you well, unfortunately (from my perspective) there's no shortage of them offering it.

It saddens me that you don't really value company of any kind. Surely as a psych major, you can see how this can pave the way for a really miserable existence?

"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Since I believe this quote very much, I won't jostle you for preferring your own company. But perhaps I'll simply say it's really worth coming out of your shell once in a while to see if the wind is blowing in a new direction...

Well I took a different quote to heart. From the words of Jean-Paul Satre, "Hell is other people." Also as I said before I doubt I'll ever hire a prostitute, because it is still rather expensive and I can't believe it really feels good enough to be worth the cost. I've come to the conclusion people's raving about it is the result social pressure and while I can't remember the exact term, it boils down to people will enjoy things more when they work hard for it by lying to themselves. When people have put a lot of time and effort into getting or maintianing something they will say it's better than it really is. Why? because they have to justify to themselves why they put so effort into it, and it's better to lie to themselves and say it's awsome than to let reailty hit them in the face and realize they spent so much time and effort on something pointless. This is one of the reasons abused spouses stay with husbands or wives. Also I don't believe there is anything morally wrong with being a prostitute. I still don't think it's a good profession to be in, but that's only because it's dangerous.

museofdoom:

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a bitch. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0

It also doesn't make the "Wish I could find a guy like you" anything more then a back-handed compliment.

Doesn't excuse the backlash, just saying that's a phrase people should reeaalllllyyyyy stop uttering.

Doctor Glocktor:
I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

Well mate it is high time we have this talk then, as the owner of a penis you are at fault for every woe this world has to offer, this is most important information before you get into any sort of relationship so you won't be shocked that every problem in the relationship will be put on you.

You simply haveto get in that "I'm a bastard" mindset and work with it.
"You there, woman, tomorrow date?", perfectly simple, and if that doesn't work you might try a van and rope... do be warned there are some authorities that might frown upon this approach.

archvile93:

Well I took a different quote to heart. From the words of Jean-Paul Satre, "Hell is other people." Also as I said before I doubt I'll ever hire a prostitute, because it is still rather expensive and I can't believe it really feels good enough to be worth the cost. I've come to the conclusion people's raving about it is the result social pressure and while I can't remember the exact term, it boils down to people will enjoy things more when they work hard for it by lying to themselves. When people have put a lot of time and effort into getting or maintianing something they will say it's better than it really is. Why? because they have to justify to themselves why they put so effort into it, and it's better to lie to themselves and say it's awsome than to let reailty hit them in the face and realize they spent so much time and effort on something pointless. This is one of the reasons abused spouses stay with husbands or wives. Also I don't believe there is anything morally wrong with being a prostitute. I still don't think it's a good profession to be in, but that's only because it's dangerous.

Sex really isn't the only reason people seek romantic companionship. I've never heard of a successful relationship based solely around sex. To me sex is nice, It's a nice way to blow off some steam, a nice way to reciprocate feelings to your partner, a nice way to gain intimacy, trust and understanding with another individual. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. You seem to have a warped idea that every body is talking sex, that it is the means to an end or the end itself. That couldn't be farther from the truth in a lot of cases.

Some people spend their lives pursuing sex, for sexual gratification's sake alone. But they are seriously in the minority. You need to get out and talk to people about this. Even at 22 i'm sure you will find peers around you that will tell you the same. I think it would be good for you to stop hiding yourself away and just talk to people, listen to people. Forget the media or porn or things that objectify and promote sex. Go and gather evidence for yourself, re-assess it and broaden your perspective on the whole issue. Perhaps just start with a forum, make a thread, ask people why they get into relationships, what makes them happy what makes them unhappy. That should at least interest you from the psychology angle.

So wait, how friend-zoning works is guys try to be pretend friends? I thought it was like your friends for a long time, and over time you find the other person attractive, and try to ask them out. How can you find a person attractive without being they're friends?

All I got from this thread is that, when people like the looks of someone, to get close to them they try to become friends, and to do that they are nice. This leaves a problem happening when the objective person (sorry I forget words and just put in something random to make it sound normal) declines and they feel like they put in all this time and effort and it went to waste. The other option is to straight up ask, but then you look I think it was desperate or creepy. I can't think of a solution to this problem

I've never had to face this, as I've only ever found people I am already friends with attractive. Sure I've seen attractive people but they are just people, friends you have something in common with, and they know who you are, and can already show some interest. How about make friends with a bunch of people, and then a year later realize you like at least one.

In my experience the friend zone is a response to what we want. I tend to take a while to develop feelings for people (real feelings, anyway, beyond just lust) due to trust issues, and so I end up wanting that friendship and being attracted to it. In short, on some level, I want that close friendship to be forever, sure some sex would be great too, but it's that closeness I really desire, so sometimes I'll begin to crave a relationship with a friend I happen to also find attractive.

Most people, however, are initially attracted to people when they first meet them, and the more exposure they have to a person, the less they want them - there have even been studies that show it, and yes, it's proven that this impulse and desire for someone new is more potent in women.

I'm also going to say that it is superficial, and I'm sorry if people can't admit they're shallow on some levels, but anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves and others. I'm shallow, do I have high standards?, not really, but I am. We all have something we need to be attracted to someone, even if it's just someone of a certain gender, height, weight, eye color (I'm reaching), but that's all there is to it.

Also, while women get called on friend zoning guys, it does go the other way. I did once have a girl who I friend zoned because we were very close, I was very close with her ex-boyfriend, and I didn't want the drama. Hell, I was even attracted to her, but I didn't think it was worth the drama.

In short, the friend zone happens. I think it's stupid to blame anyone, though. We can't help what we want, or who we're attracted to. Yes, it can be frustrating, I have had girls I've loved who wanted me only as a friend - guess what, we're still friends. If they blamed me I would resent that, because as they can't exactly control not wanting me, I can't entirely control wanting them. Of course, what we then do upon rejection is a different story, but barring some other reaction, a few weeks to let the awkwardness pass should be enough for anyone, and if you really do value the friendship, things should be fine.

Doctor Glocktor:

I simply have to wonder what the hell people are thinking.

'Excuse me miss, I just wanted you to know I want to sex you. That is all.'

There is a LOT of extreme in this thread; that face that there are people saying 'HOW DARE YOU BE FRIENDS FIRST' is very, very silly.

Also, rejection hurts. To say someone is a jerk or whatever word you want to use over being sore from rejection is just being mean for the sake of some perceived injustice they've committed.

*sigh* of course you shouldn't say "heyy durrr i wanna bang you" the moment you meet someone. But there is a huge difference between meeting a person, hanging out once or twice and making your attraction/feelings clear after getting to know them some, and being friends with the person for months on end and then suddenly coming out and saying "I want a relationship." By doing that, you're both gonna be hurt. You're gonna be hurt worse because your feelings have had time to fester, and the girl is going to be hurt because she loses a friend and knows that you were only interested in getting with her and weren't actually into the friendship at all.

If you are attracted to someone when you meet them, get to know them a little and TELL THEM. It saves everyone a whole lot of hurt feelings.

museofdoom:

Doctor Glocktor:

I simply have to wonder what the hell people are thinking.

'Excuse me miss, I just wanted you to know I want to sex you. That is all.'

There is a LOT of extreme in this thread; that face that there are people saying 'HOW DARE YOU BE FRIENDS FIRST' is very, very silly.

Also, rejection hurts. To say someone is a jerk or whatever word you want to use over being sore from rejection is just being mean for the sake of some perceived injustice they've committed.

*sigh* of course you shouldn't say "heyy durrr i wanna bang you" the moment you meet someone. But there is a huge difference between meeting a person, hanging out once or twice and making your attraction/feelings clear after getting to know them some, and being friends with the person for months on end and then suddenly coming out and saying "I want a relationship." By doing that, you're both gonna be hurt. You're gonna be hurt worse because your feelings have had time to fester, and the girl is going to be hurt because she loses a friend and knows that you were only interested in getting with her and weren't actually into the friendship at all.

If you are attracted to someone when you meet them, get to know them a little and TELL THEM. It saves everyone a whole lot of hurt feelings.

That fact that you think a guy can't be into the friendship AND want to go out with her is both pretty telling and pretty offensive.

Fun fact: Guys can think about more than one thing at once!

And honestly, I really want to know what you think 'making your feelings clear' means. Do you ask her out? Do you tell her you find her attractive? You certainly sound like you don't intend to make it easy for the poor bastard.

And I want you to tell me if a guy saying 'I WANT CHA' after two days of hanging out is correct in what you mean.

Or perhaps... subtlety exists?!

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