Woah Woah Woah. Okay, let's talk about women for a second.

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GethBall:
I only respect women if they respect themselves. (sorry, but I do)

Once again, I love how you see things! Albeit I try and respect everyone but that's *cough*religion*cough*.

museofdoom:
So upon reading through that thread on super models, I saw some pretty awful commentary.

There was a lot of shaming being done, and stereotypes and generalizations being thrown. So let me make some things clear.

1) Just because a woman is thin, doesn't mean she's anorexic.
2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.
3)Being pretty doesn't mean they lack a personality, or kindness or intelligence.
4)There is nothing wrong with girls who make a living from modeling. If they love doing it, then that's perfectly ok!
5)A thin woman isn't any less of a woman than a woman who has curves or is larger. All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming. Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have. People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT. Girls can enjoy having sex, casual sex, kinky sex, and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too. Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

Sorry for ranting, I just had a lot of feelings. (and I'm not attacking men here, girls are perfectly capable of slut shaming and being sexist. It actually happens quite a bit.)

I can agree with that. The only reason I don't walk around all summer wearing as little as I can (I don't cope well with summer) is that, well, nobody wants to see that.

Still, supermodel culture is a problem, because it doesn't tolerate anything else than their idea of "perfect". Through doing this, they cause stuff like anorexia and bulimia. It's not the models that we need to be going on a b**** hunt for; It's the agents, the companys, the magazines backing this sh**.

Shawn MacDonald:

museofdoom:

Volf:
Yep a dislike of women seems common here. Heck I just got done talking to a guy who basically said a relationship to him, was a place to loose money and put his dick in. Nice guy @_@.

Oh what a lovely guy! Objectifying/dehumanizing women is a pretty common thing, and it's very very not good.

It's sad that some people need to be told "women are people too".

The guy is talking about me. He's a terrible listener. Even though it's perfectly normal to side with someone on something, don't always believe it blindly.

I've "listened" to how you refer to the people your with as hookers, and how they "suck your money out". Go back to the other thread and look at the responses you got. I wasn't the only one to call you out on your attitude.

museofdoom:

2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.

If she is doing on on her own choice (for example starving because she has a sick sense of beat) then they are bad person. Other than that i agree with you. however from my experience i have learned that stereotyping is mostly right.

The only thing that pisses me off about models is they do nothing and get more money than people like doctors or teachers or other more important professions. The well known ones anyway.
Not saying other professions should be on millions a year because I know the economy doesn't work that way, but they do seem to get a stupid amount for standing there and looking pretty. You can be thick as shit and drop out of school but still be earning loadzamonies as a model. Not saying all of them are like that of course, I know a fair few of them who are still studying in uni.

But I agree, thin doesn't mean unattractive. I feel sorry for the naturally slim girls who have to hear 'omg size zero is disgusting!!1!! men like a bit of meat on their bones!!1!'
It's hardly their fault if their metabolism is stupidly high.
I've never thought being thin makes you less of a woman. The only thing I think people might mean when they say that is if a woman drops below a certain weight she can no longer have periods or have a baby.

I disagree about the clothing issue though... I think if you're constantly going out in two tea-bags and a nettle you probably don't have much respect for yourself. To me, you're basically saying, "Look at me boys, look at my arse and tits hanging out!" You know full well you're gonna get judged if you walk out the house half naked like some girls do. Especially in the cold >w<; they might catch something D:
Stuff like boobs, midriff, legs I don't mind girls showing at all, but when they go out in the teeniest shirts and skirts it just looks ridiculous.

museofdoom:

Rawne1980:

Depends from what view point you are talking.

Body shape/size from the "I find that attractive" side is subject to an individuals opinion.

Models are far too thin for my liking. As I said in that thread, twiglets with tits. Some of us just prefer a few more curves and, to put it a bit differently, something to "grab hold of" if you will.

I won't condemn models though it's not as if there is some supreme mould of the perfect body that everyone should conform to like I say, it's just personal taste.

Well of course everyone has their own personal taste, and some people don't like skinny women.

It's just annoying when people condemn skinny women for being skinny. Like someone in the model thread said "I want real women with curves" or whatever. Like apparently being thin takes away your womanhood.

Well, while this does not necessarily reflect my personal opinion, there is an argument to be made there. If a man loses his testicles I think most people would say he has lost his "manhood." I would. It's unfortunate but true.

In a similar sense those super thin models probably could not give birth without dying. For that matter they probably couldn't carry a baby to term.

Ergo loss of "womanhood." Not personhood, but you get the idea.

Actually I think anyone who exposes their body on the internet is doing something immoral, man or woman. Maybe I'm just a prude. I don't think I'd ever actually yell at someone for doing it unless I actually knew the person though. Other then that... sexism makes me a sad panda and I support this thread.

the problem with the modelling industry is the amount of pressure put on the supermodels by the agencies themselves.. they are forced to be that slim and absolutely chewed out and fired if they even weigh a couple of kg's more then what their agent wants them to be.. my mum used to do modelling and a friend of hers also used to be an international supermodel (milan,paris,etc) so i know its a rotten industry due to the agencies and pressure on women to say unhealthily slim and petite and its also just REALLY demeaning to women in general on the international stage anyways.

museofdoom:

1) Just because a woman is thin, doesn't mean she's anorexic.

No, but it is the case far too often.

2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.

They're dumb enough to eat a perfectly good meal, then throw it up, in the name of literally starving themselves to the point you can count every rib they have from 20 feet away. Sorry, but that's not what I'd consider a person worthy of a nobel peace prize. That's a person in desperate need for some help.

3)Being pretty doesn't mean they lack a personality, or kindness or intelligence.

Very rarely do you have these things coinciding though. I lucked out and found such a woman, but the female peers I had to put up with in high school were the embodiment of this stereotype. Every single mother fucking one of them. The ones who were nice to be around weren't very pretty, sometimes intentionally so as they'd dress conservatively and hide their curves, while the ones that'd make your pants tighten from 20 paces were all Grade A Materialistic Bitches who seem to think you don't love them if you don't give them a thousand dollar ring on your one-month anniversary.

4)There is nothing wrong with girls who make a living from modeling. If they love doing it, then that's perfectly ok!

While this is true, that doesn't mean the girls that opt into such a job are worth being around. Having never talked to a significant amount of models, however, I can't tell you if the stereotype covers the majority or minority.

5)A thin woman isn't any less of a woman than a woman who has curves or is larger.

Actually, she is. Literally so.

All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

Uhhhh, no. If she's in the same shape I am, that is round, she's not going to be catching anyone's eye. It works the other way too, the only way I managed to land someone was by cutting the visual part of first impressions out entirely, my physique sure as hell ain't gonna be landing any ladies.

Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming.

Mhm

Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have.

It often is. Very rarely does a girl bare 'em for any and all because she is happy to do so. Such women do exist, but they're rare. Usually, when someone pops their tits out, they do it to garner attention and some sense of self worth.

People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT.

100% agree. Sex is pleasurable for both sides...or at least it should be.

museofdoom:

Rawne1980:

Depends from what view point you are talking.

Body shape/size from the "I find that attractive" side is subject to an individuals opinion.

Models are far too thin for my liking. As I said in that thread, twiglets with tits. Some of us just prefer a few more curves and, to put it a bit differently, something to "grab hold of" if you will.

I won't condemn models though it's not as if there is some supreme mould of the perfect body that everyone should conform to like I say, it's just personal taste.

Well of course everyone has their own personal taste, and some people don't like skinny women.

It's just annoying when people condemn skinny women for being skinny. Like someone in the model thread said "I want real women with curves" or whatever. Like apparently being thin takes away your womanhood.

I would just like to point out that women judge men just as much, the number one is apparently how good their car is. Alot of women also want their men muscular and to go to the gym, despite people like me who are not even capable of gaining muscles. I have been the same exact low weight for 16 years and pretty much have to press a pretty boy look to attract women who are into that just to get laid as I can no way compete in terms of masculinity versus 99% of other men. I don't blame women for wanting more masculinity in their men however, the same reason I don't blame men finding skinny women a turn off. It really goes both ways.

I admit men are repulsive in the way that we can't help but judge a woman by her looks, but just think of how many women judge men by how many $'s they bring in. They are far more to go with a rich jerk then a kind, lower class man.

But seriously, women are not any better then men when it comes to passing judgements. There are also alot of annoyances that women these days are causing, like fighting against all men's clubs because its sexist when women's fitness gyms are EVERYWHERE that we will never be able to touch. It's hypocritical.

I'm not trying to hate on women, I'm just trying to make a point that they judge us just as much as we do them.

museofdoom:

Liquidacid23:

The Thinker:

I assume this is "internal beauty". Because not everyone is externally beautiful, but a lot of people have redeeming qualities.

haha that reminds me of this

image

That's just not a very nice comic. Fat is not synonymous with ugly.

never said it was...

image

museofdoom:
all bodies are good bodies.

The rest of your post may be right, but I'd argue this piece.

museofdoom:
5)A thin woman isn't any less of a woman than a woman who has curves or is larger. All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

I agree with you completely, apart from this point. I consider bodies that are of an unhealthy size to be bad bodies, so whilst people with anorexia or obesity may be wonderful people, they don't have good bodies.

Wow, not nearly as much bile as I thought there would be. =)
Maybe we are moving past this whole `immature attitude towards women` thing that's been hanging around like a bad smell.

Aside from any eating disorders, I have absolutely no problem with supermodels, as I said in the other thread. (And the eating disorder thing is more to do with societal and media pressures put on those women in the first place).

This is just anecdotal evidence, but I find that most of the "slut shaming" comes from other women, not from men.

Agreed it's something that needs to be stopped, but I think you'll find that many men would be on board with putting an end to it. It's women that need to get it.

zehydra:
This is just anecdotal evidence, but I find that most of the "slut shaming" comes from other women, not from men.

Agreed it's something that needs to be stopped, but I think you'll find that many men would be on board with putting an end to it. It's women that need to get it.

Well, as you said, its anecdotal (and OP admits women do it too). That's a broader society thing, not what's going on here on this site, well thats because its mostly dudes here anyway.... but yeah.

zehydra:
This is just anecdotal evidence, but I find that most of the "slut shaming" comes from other women, not from men.

Agreed it's something that needs to be stopped, but I think you'll find that many men would be on board with putting an end to it. It's women that need to get it.

Really? Because on these forums I see a lot of it coming from guys. I think it's coming from the insane amount of white knighting you see nerds/geeks do. "If I show women what I really care about is their personality then they'll have to like me... But what's the best way to do that... Oh I know, straight up insulting any woman with the gall to be physically attractive."

It's like most things these kinds of guys do. When I say these kinds of guys I don't mean nerds/geeks, I'm talking about "nice guys", not guys who happen to be nice, but "nice guys". Y'know, the guys who are actually hateful misogynistic assholes who hope if they listen to a girls problems she'll fall in love with them, nay not hope, feel they deserve it.

This police officer explains it best:

museofdoom:

Volf:

museofdoom:
snip

Yep a dislike of women seems common here. Heck I just got done talking to a guy who basically said a relationship to him, was a place to loose money and put his dick in. Nice guy @_@.

Oh what a lovely guy! Objectifying/dehumanizing women is a pretty common thing, and it's very very not good.

It's sad that some people need to be told "women are people too".

What's sad is taking sides.

I rather enjoy the saying 'All women are crazy, all men are crazy, get used to it'.

Yes, it's sad that there are actually people (Usually men, obviously) who need to be told that, but it's equally sad that there are women who manipulate men around them into doing what they want.

It's sad that Radical Feminism has pretty much destroyed the reputation of feminism in general, it's sad that gender biases plague the world today, it's sad that one side gets the limelight, and it's sad that there are really guys who say 'women are a warm place to jerk off' < I actually worked with a guy who said that...

Men objectify women just as often as women objectify men, but women are more vocal about it, while men are often more crude. That's all.

There were people calling supermodels sluts? Really? I feel nothing but pity for them. Most of them eating disorders and all them are pressured to be super skinny. And some girls are naturally really skinny, like my cousin who I actually think could be a supermodel if she wanted to be. I actually consider myself a little on the judgemental side but I don't think badly of them at all, they dress up and get their pictures taken. So what? They're pretty let them flaunt it.

Volf:

Shawn MacDonald:

museofdoom:

Oh what a lovely guy! Objectifying/dehumanizing women is a pretty common thing, and it's very very not good.

It's sad that some people need to be told "women are people too".

The guy is talking about me. He's a terrible listener. Even though it's perfectly normal to side with someone on something, don't always believe it blindly.

I've "listened" to how you refer to the people your with as hookers, and how they "suck your money out". Go back to the other thread and look at the responses you got. I wasn't the only one to call you out on your attitude.

Don't bother, he never backs up what he says then just accuses everyone of judging him unfairly. As if a guy going out of his way to repeatedly say what horrible creatures women are doesn't paint a pretty clear picture. My guess is he was probably one of those "nice guys" once.

I was one of the guys stating that supermodels were mannequins with a pulse :D

Which is what they are in terms of career choice.

Don't get me wrong, I'd treat them with the same respect I'd treat any other human being and I'm sure some of them are very interesting people, but I won't be lauding their 'talents' any time soon.

-'and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too.'-

It's fine for some, not for me. My personal preferences aside... Let us all just be accepting of everyone and everything. Let us all just hold hands and sing happy songs. Let us all strive for perfection.

Now go back and edit all your EA/ME3/Pony/Zynga hate threads, and become the hippies that you should be : P

/sarcasm

I've grown to think that the 'hate posts' just sound worse than they really are for the poster. It's okay, I don't really believe the forums are full of hateful people. The text just comes off that way. It's boring to have everyone be dull and agree with everything anyways. That's what I keep telling myself, anyways... (bliss)

Astoria:
There were people calling supermodels sluts? Really? I feel nothing but pity for them. Most of them eating disorders and all them are pressured to be super skinny. And some girls are naturally really skinny, like my cousin who I actually think could be a supermodel if she wanted to be. I actually consider myself a little on the judgemental side but I don't think badly of them at all, they dress up and get their pictures taken. So what? They're pretty let them flaunt it.

What annoys me is that people automatically assume two things.

That anorexic is just a synonym for too skinny and that people aren't naturally skinny.

I mean I'm a dude, I'm about 6' 150lbs, with a 30" waist. I eat like a fucking horse and do no exercise. If I actually started eating less fatty foods and working out I'd probably be thinner. Hell at one stage I was the height I am now and weighed 120lbs, I had a bmi of 15.8, about 20lbs underweight.

"All are not created equal. Some are born swifter of foot, some with greater beauty. Some are born into poverty;and others are born sick and feeble. Both in birth and in up brining in sheer scope of ability every human is inherently different! Yes, that is why people discriminate against one another, which is why there is struggle, competition, and the unfaltering march of progress! "

While I do agree we should learn to accept others and look more at inner beauty etc, stereotypes don't simply come from nowhere, they are usually made by a majority of a group.

Liquidacid23:

never said it was...

image

Thank you for that. I laughed so loud my fellow Cube Slaves are all looking at me.

My only issue with this thread and threads like it is that any counter view point cannot be viewed objectively. The person who stated the counter point is simply a sexist (of course some may be) and their view will be disregarded but I digress please continue.

museofdoom:
All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

No, some people are genuinely unhealthy, and telling them that it's "good" is only going to do them serious physical harm in the long run. People working in positions that require them to spend a lot of time on their feet need to be especially careful about their weight, because it can lead to crippling and sometimes irreparably knee damage over time. For some people, that kind of injury completely destroys their ability to work for a living. The type of shaming that such people normally attract is a problem demonstrating a lack of understanding (I used to be quite overweight due to anti-depressants, and I can tell you that overweight men get similar treatment, unless a lot has changed in the two years since I got off the pills and started working out), but that doesn't mean that it isn't a real issue meriting just as much concern as anorexia. These people need to work to change their bodies for their own sake, and they need the people around them to acknowledge that and encourage them to take action.

Also, I dispute "all women are equal". I would never insult any of the responsible and intelligent women I know by lumping them in with the much less responsible and intelligent women who spent more than ten years physically and emotionally abusing me because they bought into all the shit that came out of the Red Stockings and their successors (I suppose you could put Solanas as the origin of all that stuff, but she didn't actually want anything to do with her admirers).

"Slut shaming needs to stop"?

I'm really sorry, but i just can't get behind that. Enjoying sex is one thing, but i've always thought the definition of a slut was someone who slept around with several different people within a short span of time. To be perfectly honest i don't really approve of either gender doing that.

Call it a childish, naive or immature ideal if you want, but i think sex should be reserved for people who actually care about each other. Otherwise you're really no better than the guy who said that women steal your money to let you put your dick in them.

Now that that's off my chest i CAN get behind the statement that you shouldn't condemn someone for what line of work they choose to pursue. I know a girl who's done model "missions", or whatever you call them, before and her truth was that she actually had really low self esteem. Most shockingly of all she's a really nice person.

"All bodies are good bodies" Yeah, i think the thread about a guy who liked fat women established that pretty well. Everyone has their own "type" so any sort of body should be good for SOMEone out there.

astrav1:

museofdoom:
Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

And not everyone has to not call someone a slut. I think you are forgetting that this is the internet, and more importantly if a person really enjoys showing skin or having sex then they don't need someone defending them because they should be comfortable with who they are.

Just because someone is comfortable with who they are doesn't mean they can't be hurt by deliberately insulting language.

I am a women who doesn't mind showing skin and who enjoys sex. But I still find the word "slut" hurtful because of the negative connotations associated with it.

It's the difference between acknowledging that someone is gay (fine) and calling them a fag (not fine).

Ulquiorra4sama:
Call it a childish, naive or immature ideal if you want, but i think sex should be reserved for people who actually care about each other. Otherwise you're really no better than the guy who said that women steal your money to let you put your dick in them.

That's your opinion. My personal opinion is that sex is an activity and (providing the "safe, sane and consensual" rule is followed) it's really no one else's business how often (or with who) a person chooses to have it.

My personal opinion is also that all religion is nonsense superstition. But I don't go round calling religious people names.

I never understood why people said that things like beauty pageants are sexist or discriminating. It's a contest of beauty! Does that mean a chess contest is discriminating against the stupid? The Olympics are discriminating against the obese? Geez!

museofdoom:
So upon reading through that thread on super models, I saw some pretty awful commentary.

There was a lot of shaming being done, and stereotypes and generalizations being thrown. So let me make some things clear.

1) Just because a woman is thin, doesn't mean she's anorexic.
2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.
3)Being pretty doesn't mean they lack a personality, or kindness or intelligence.
4)There is nothing wrong with girls who make a living from modeling. If they love doing it, then that's perfectly ok!
5)A thin woman isn't any less of a woman than a woman who has curves or is larger. All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming. Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have. People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT. Girls can enjoy having sex, casual sex, kinky sex, and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too. Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

Sorry for ranting, I just had a lot of feelings. (and I'm not attacking men here, girls are perfectly capable of slut shaming and being sexist. It actually happens quite a bit.)

I agree so much with what you say.

Also want to add that guys have different preferences in girls, but that doesn't mean they ONLY want those types of girls either.

I also feel that most discussions on Models end up being rather mean towards people who are naturally thin (for whatever reason)... there are loads of reasons for why people look the way they look, so we should probably avoid judgement.

MetalMagpie:

Ulquiorra4sama:
Call it a childish, naive or immature ideal if you want, but i think sex should be reserved for people who actually care about each other. Otherwise you're really no better than the guy who said that women steal your money to let you put your dick in them.

That's your opinion. My personal opinion is that sex is an activity and (providing the "safe, sane and consensual" rule is followed) it's really no one else's business how often (or with who) a person chooses to have it.

My personal opinion is also that all religion is nonsense superstition. But I don't go round calling religious people names.

Well, i did say "i think". Really just stating what i think is appropriate, but i'd never even bother trying to make anyone else think like i do. I'm really just the silent judging type so i'd never actually call someone a slut out loud to slander them, but i might think it in my head :P

DesertMummy:
True stuff right there, however from my experience, people that are like that (not just women), are generally not very nice, or someone i'd like to spend time with. But you're right, people shouldn't be insulted for being anorexic or bulimic, that's fucking horrible.

Yeah, it's a disorder, and disorders can't be helped. It's essentially like bullying someone with downs syndrome (not quite as bad, but you see my point)

What also irritates me is when people assume someone is anorexic just because they're very skinny.

I'm an incredibly skinny individual, because I have a very fast metabolism. Seriously, I spend a lot of time scoffing snacks, and I've been known to vacuum a steak and chips, but it doesn't show. Really, if I chose to buckle down and start exercising (which I really need to do!) I'd have the body of a God :D

But yeah, some people have accused me of being slightly anorexic, and then proceeding to discriminate against me for something I'm not even doing.

museofdoom:
Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming. Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have. People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT. Girls can enjoy having sex, casual sex, kinky sex, and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too. Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

I just wish people would stop having a go at me for not wanting to have anything to do with these women.

Cant turn a whore into a housewife, folks. Dont call me sexist for realizing that. ("Whore" in this case just means promiscuous, I am not trying to insult anyone.

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