Now this is really quite refreshing. It's nice to see someone with the same opinion as me (i.e. the right opinion) on this; especially a woman, it's more common to see women either hating them or having no feelings on it. I find the demonization of being skinny ridiculous and it's always people who are trying to make anything from 'curvy' to 'oh my god why is there a whale on my front porch' acceptable.

Models don't have to worry, though. I'll usually find them attractive and that's all anyone needs, isn't it; my approval? Of course it is.

Ulquiorra4sama:

MetalMagpie:

Ulquiorra4sama:
Call it a childish, naive or immature ideal if you want, but i think sex should be reserved for people who actually care about each other. Otherwise you're really no better than the guy who said that women steal your money to let you put your dick in them.

That's your opinion. My personal opinion is that sex is an activity and (providing the "safe, sane and consensual" rule is followed) it's really no one else's business how often (or with who) a person chooses to have it.

My personal opinion is also that all religion is nonsense superstition. But I don't go round calling religious people names.

Well, i did say "i think". Really just stating what i think is appropriate, but i'd never even bother trying to make anyone else think like i do. I'm really just the silent judging type so i'd never actually call someone a slut out loud to slander them, but i might think it in my head :P

My apologies. I thought by saying you "can't get behind" calling an end to "slut shaming", you meant that you support calling people sluts. So I assumed that this was something you do.

Strazdas:

museofdoom:

2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.

If she is doing on on her own choice (for example starving because she has a sick sense of beat) then they are bad person. Other than that i agree with you. however from my experience i have learned that stereotyping is mostly right.

How does not eating in itself make someone a bad person? Who are they hurting apart from themselves?

That said, I realise that people who deliberately eat less than they should and are not suffering from an eating disorder (or fasting for religious reasons) are probably doing it for attention. Which can certainly make someone an irritating person.

museofdoom:

Liquidacid23:

The Thinker:

I assume this is "internal beauty". Because not everyone is externally beautiful, but a lot of people have redeeming qualities.

haha that reminds me of this

That's just not a very nice comic. Fat is not synonymous with ugly.

Really? Don't whine about Cyanide and Happiness. Its one of the greatest web comics ever. That one in particular made me laugh for a good bit.

The boys who post on this forum hate women? Easy to understand why, I suppose. They're young, and haven't had any meaningful relationships yet. At their age, women are a mystery because they're too shy to actually talk to them and understand them. Understanding comes with experience.

While I think you have good intentions, your posts are coming off as preachy and self-righteous. Let the sexually frustrated teenagers objectify women on a forum. As long as its not hurting anyone directly, I personally don't see a problem.

Here here! Slut shaming and fat shaming is one of the things that get's me really, really annoyed. People who do it just seem arrogant to me.

We're a very judgemental society really, some people being more judgemental than others. Everyone is held to arbitrary and often stupid standards (for every women who is shamed for being fat, there's a man who's shamed for not having a well-paying job and a child who is shamed for not having a ton of friends). It's bullshit really.

museofdoom:
*snip*

I got to ask, are you on some kind of crusade for the female race? I knew I remembered your avatar from the "friend zone" thread, so I clicked on your profile and you mostly just post in stuff "women" related. There isn't anything wrong with that (I'm for equality as much as the next guy!) but you seem to be focusing on JUST women.

What about male models? They're not expected to be super skinny, but they're expected to be muscular. Is that right? Should they be forced to bulk up because that's what society thinks an attractive man looks like?

What about women in the friend zone? It happens a lot more than you might think, yet your previous thread spoke as if it's only an occurrence that men have to deal with.

Let's go back to the slutty thing. Do these laws relate to men as well as women? Because the way you're talking, the slut-label regarding how much skin a person shows or how much they sleep around is only a stigma attached to women. The day old complaint that "if a man has loads of sex he's praised but if a woman does it she's a slut" doesn't hold up any more. Modern equality is a lot more present than a lot of people seem to want to admit.

I don't want to sound like I'm having a go, I just want you to take into account that men and women have the same problems. Admittedly, yes, stuff like anorexia is far more common in women than men but how many men do you think have taken steroids to improve their body for just the same reasons women develop anorexia? Always look on flip side of the coin.

museofdoom:
So upon reading through that thread on super models, I saw some pretty awful commentary.

There was a lot of shaming being done, and stereotypes and generalizations being thrown. So let me make some things clear.

1) Just because a woman is thin, doesn't mean she's anorexic.
2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.
3)Being pretty doesn't mean they lack a personality, or kindness or intelligence.
4)There is nothing wrong with girls who make a living from modeling. If they love doing it, then that's perfectly ok!
5)A thin woman isn't any less of a woman than a woman who has curves or is larger. All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming. Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have. People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT. Girls can enjoy having sex, casual sex, kinky sex, and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too. Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

Sorry for ranting, I just had a lot of feelings. (and I'm not attacking men here, girls are perfectly capable of slut shaming and being sexist. It actually happens quite a bit.)

The OP of that thread asked people to comment on supermodels, then spent the rest of the thread flat out attacking posters for their opinions, the bulk of which amounted to: "I don't care for supermodels" or "they are overpaid clothes horses".

Just saying.

OT: So long as they accord me with the same basic courtesy I show them, I don't care if a woman is fat or thin, old or young, pretty or ugly. (The same goes for men, too.) I'm not saying everyone has to be supernice friends with each other, but I don't go out of my way to antagonise or judge people based on how they look or dress, and I expect the same in return.

museofdoom:
So upon reading through that thread on super models, I saw some pretty awful commentary.

There was a lot of shaming being done, and stereotypes and generalizations being thrown. So let me make some things clear.

1) Just because a woman is thin, doesn't mean she's anorexic.
2)Some women are anorexic or bulimic, and that doesn't mean they are a bad person, they are suffering terribly.
3)Being pretty doesn't mean they lack a personality, or kindness or intelligence.
4)There is nothing wrong with girls who make a living from modeling. If they love doing it, then that's perfectly ok!
5)A thin woman isn't any less of a woman than a woman who has curves or is larger. All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming. Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have. People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT. Girls can enjoy having sex, casual sex, kinky sex, and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too. Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

Sorry for ranting, I just had a lot of feelings. (and I'm not attacking men here, girls are perfectly capable of slut shaming and being sexist. It actually happens quite a bit.)

While I agree completely, I have to say I truly and thoroughly dislike the fashion industry and the image they promote with super-thin women modelling for them. Sometimes it feels as if they set the standard for what is considered "beautiful", and that pisses me off.

DRes82:

While I think you have good intentions, your posts are coming off as preachy and self-righteous. Let the sexually frustrated teenagers objectify women on a forum. As long as its not hurting anyone directly, I personally don't see a problem.

It's hurting our community by making it a shitty place to be for women.
This is not the place for woman-bashing. I don't get why it gets a pass.

museofdoom:

targren:
snip

Basically, what you just said with that entire post is: "I can be a jerk and insult someone and condemn their behavior or their body type because I don't personally agree with it or find it attractive."

Actually, I didn't say it. The Constitution did.

You can condemn anything you want. I can condemn bimbos for being bimbos, you can condemn me for condemning them, and so on.

Telling me to "stop," however, puts you squarely in the wrong. You have every right to denounce my opinions. You have NO right to forbid them.

Also, just because you don't find something attractive, doesn't mean that other people don't or shouldn't.

Reading comprehension FTL.

You're the one that was trying to dictate what other people should find attractive with your item #5, not me.

The whole point of this thread was: Stop judging, be a decent human being, and be accepting of other people's behavior and physical appearance even if it doesn't line up with your own beliefs and/or moral code or suit your particular taste.

Sure. As soon as you post in this thread, explicitly, that you unconditionally accept:

A. Institutionalized rape, slavery, and genocide in Africa
B. Oppression of women in the middle east
C. The growing trend of corporatism and fascism in the Western world.

Until you do, I'll be executing my right to employ my own gift of reason to dismiss you as not knowing WTF you're talking about.

DRes82:

The boys who post on this forum hate women? Easy to understand why, I suppose. They're young, and haven't had any meaningful relationships yet. At their age, women are a mystery because they're too shy to actually talk to them and understand them. Understanding comes with experience.

Let's be fair. When one's older and has a good number of relationships under his belt, there's still a good chance he'll hate women. The difference he'll just have empirical justification for it! ;)

I've only met one person to my knowledge who has worked as a model. She's quite cool, in fact she's my girlfriend, %100 of the model's I have met have been cool. My anecdotal evidence > your anecdotal evidence.

museofdoom:
All women are equal and all bodies are good bodies.

Was right there with you until all that. Not everyone is equal, and not all bodies are good bodies. There are definitely bad bodies out there, and that applies to both genders. Let's not get carried away in your desire to be accepting of differences.

Phasmal:

DRes82:

While I think you have good intentions, your posts are coming off as preachy and self-righteous. Let the sexually frustrated teenagers objectify women on a forum. As long as its not hurting anyone directly, I personally don't see a problem.

It's hurting our community by making it a shitty place to be for women.
This is not the place for woman-bashing. I don't get why it gets a pass.

heh, I knew I should've put a disclaimer. Women aren't the only people who get 'bashed' here. As a matter of fact, had the op not made this thread I would have never thought that it was an issue in the least. I've not seen any hate directed specifically towards women. As a matter of fact, its my experience that in game forums women are actually put on a pedestal. I know that a gamer girl is much more attractive to me than one who doesn't share my interests. Its why I married my wife. =)

Anyways, everyone gets fucked with on the internet. Men, women, gamers, gays, straights, blacks, whites, etc. If you don't have a thick skin, then its definitely not a place you should frequent.

Woman-bashing in particular doesn't get a 'pass'. Its the internet. Anyone can say what they damn well please, and they will. Is there a rule for that?

targren:
Let's be fair. When one's older and has a good number of relationships under his belt, there's still a good chance he'll hate women. The difference he'll just have empirical justification for it! ;)

True, but its fine to let them believe otherwise until then. I know that illusion made high school and college a lot easier to handle.

DRes82:
Snip

If you haven't seen any hate directed at women here you probably haven't been looking very hard, it's not hard to find. And I guess if you are a lady it kind of sticks out.
And I am constantly getting told how revered gamer girls are whilst all I get is harrassment and `Shut up you're not special` (not that I try to be or think I am).

And I wasn't talking about the internet; I was talking specifically about here.

Spot1990:

zehydra:
This is just anecdotal evidence, but I find that most of the "slut shaming" comes from other women, not from men.

Agreed it's something that needs to be stopped, but I think you'll find that many men would be on board with putting an end to it. It's women that need to get it.

Really? Because on these forums I see a lot of it coming from guys. I think it's coming from the insane amount of white knighting you see nerds/geeks do. "If I show women what I really care about is their personality then they'll have to like me... But what's the best way to do that... Oh I know, straight up insulting any woman with the gall to be physically attractive."

It's like most things these kinds of guys do. When I say these kinds of guys I don't mean nerds/geeks, I'm talking about "nice guys", not guys who happen to be nice, but "nice guys". Y'know, the guys who are actually hateful misogynistic assholes who hope if they listen to a girls problems she'll fall in love with them, nay not hope, feel they deserve it.

I hate to break it to you, but most of the "nice guys" that you've described are nerds/geeks

Phasmal:

DRes82:
Snip

If you haven't seen any hate directed at women here you probably haven't been looking very hard, it's not hard to find. And I guess if you are a lady it kind of sticks out.
And I am constantly getting told how revered gamer girls are whilst all I get is harrassment and `Shut up you're not special` (not that I try to be or think I am).

And I wasn't talking about the internet; I was talking specifically about here.

It does get pretty tiresome, though most of it goes over my head now. I always remind myself that the demographic here is largely teenage boys, and their attitude towards women tends to improve when everyone (boys and girls) grows up a bit.

museofdoom:
Like, it's a problem.

Trying really hard to resist the urge on this...

museofdoom:
The whole point of this thread was: Stop judging, be a decent human being, and be accepting of other people's behavior and physical appearance even if it doesn't line up with your own beliefs and/or moral code or suit your particular taste.

No, yes, no and no. I will judge anyone and everyone I feel so inclined to. I will call people out on their idiotic behavior. I will stop people from acting on bullshit behavior. I will call someone fat, because they are fat (a spade being a spade and all). I don't have to be accepting of anything beyond the reality they choose to impose on themselves. If someone is not prepared to accept the consequences of their actions and the reactions to their choices, then they should not take or have them.

One can only be disgraced if you are ashamed of yourself and your actions. It is not shaming to call a slut a slut. If they feel ashamed of it, that is their own problem, not mine. I do not feel ashamed for anyone calling me an asshole when I don't consider their emotional well being in my responses.

Definitions do not inherently posses condemnations; they are merely descriptors. If I call someone a fat, lazy, idiotic prostitute; it's because she's 200lbs, doesn't do anything for work outside sex, doesn't use condoms and exchanges sex for money. Yet somehow I'm the insulting one? Well, wouldn't be the first time this thread has demonstrated irony.

scorptatious:

According to some people super models are glorified mannequins.

Daystar Clarion:
I was one of the guys stating that supermodels were mannequins with a pulse :D

Think about it for a second. They hold no facial expressions, don't speak, and do nothing but demonstrate clothing in various scenarios i.e. what a mannequin does. Don't get me wrong, my own job is much more demeaning and much lower paying, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's an apt comparison to what they do. Hate the system, not the messenger. I bet these women are incredibly interesting people, but you couldn't prove it by me because I don't know any models personally and they rarely get the opportunity to express their individuality through their profession. It's unfortunate.

museofdoom:

Also, while we are on the topic of women, I would like to say that people need to stop slut shaming. Like, it's a problem. People seem to think that how much skin a woman chooses to show is directly proportional to how much self respect they have. People also like to shame women who enjoy having sex. STOP IT. Girls can enjoy having sex, casual sex, kinky sex, and if they want to show boobs on the internet that's fine too. Not everyone has to uphold the same morals.

As a lifelong heterosexual, I concur. Men, stop it. Women, also stop it. I don't use terms like sluts or whores and it annoys me when women are called these things in private. Men, it's counter productive. You like sex with women? Stop telling them it's a bad thing. Women, when you slut shame, it's more a reflection on self hatred and your need to put down others to elevate yourself (possibly because you don't enjoy sex yourself). Makes you sound like a 7th grader, too.

Sex is nice. If you don't like it, stop having it, but don't put down other sex enthusiasts because you don't like it. It's why I don't post on My Little Pony boards - it's just not for me.

DRes82:

While I think you have good intentions, your posts are coming off as preachy and self-righteous. Let the sexually frustrated teenagers objectify women on a forum. As long as its not hurting anyone directly, I personally don't see a problem.

I'm not trying to be self righteous, or preachy but I can see how I'm coming off that way. I have a lot of feelings on the subject of objectifying woman. The thing is, there ARE women in this community (such as myself) who probably don't like seeing their gender being dehumanized or talked badly about or being talked about like we're another species. It's irritating.

DevilWithaHalo:

One can only be disgraced if you are ashamed of yourself and your actions. It is not shaming to call a slut a slut. If they feel ashamed of it, that is their own problem, not mine. I do not feel ashamed for anyone calling me an asshole when I don't consider their emotional well being in my responses.

Definitions do not inherently posses condemnations; they are merely descriptors. If I call someone a fat, lazy, idiotic prostitute; it's because she's 200lbs, doesn't do anything for work outside sex, doesn't use condoms and exchanges sex for money. Yet somehow I'm the insulting one? Well, wouldn't be the first time this thread has demonstrated irony.

What do you personally gain by calling people names? People can feel ashamed of themselves and their actions without you trying to deliberately hurt their feelings. And when they aren't ashamed of their actions, they just see a guy attempting to deliberately hurt their feelings. Not only that, but people who aren't the intended targets might hear what you say and feel a sense of shame for things they haven't even done. It's just not nice.

(Insert counter argument about how "I don't have to be nice!!!!" "I don't have to be politically correct!")

Saving some time. No, you don't have to be nice to people. But people who aren't nice make things slightly blander, the world less interesting, and people not as willing to go out for fear of running into individuals such as yourself. It's makes it harder to reach out to people. As I said, it's unproductive.

zelda2fanboy:

DevilWithaHalo:

One can only be disgraced if you are ashamed of yourself and your actions. It is not shaming to call a slut a slut. If they feel ashamed of it, that is their own problem, not mine. I do not feel ashamed for anyone calling me an asshole when I don't consider their emotional well being in my responses.

Definitions do not inherently posses condemnations; they are merely descriptors. If I call someone a fat, lazy, idiotic prostitute; it's because she's 200lbs, doesn't do anything for work outside sex, doesn't use condoms and exchanges sex for money. Yet somehow I'm the insulting one? Well, wouldn't be the first time this thread has demonstrated irony.

What do you personally gain by calling people names? People can feel ashamed of themselves and their actions without you trying to deliberately hurt their feelings. And when they aren't ashamed of their actions, they just see a guy attempting to deliberately hurt their feelings. Not only that, but people who aren't the intended targets might hear what you say and feel a sense of shame for things they haven't even done. It's just not nice.

(Insert counter argument about how "I don't have to be nice!!!!" "I don't have to be politically correct!")

Saving some time. No, you don't have to be nice to people. But people who aren't nice make things slightly blander, the world less interesting, and people not as willing to go out for fear of running into individuals such as yourself. It's makes it harder to reach out to people. As I said, it's unproductive.

What happened to "sticks and stones..."? Serious question. I dont go out of my way to insult people but still...

i agree with the OP. no need to be hatin yall.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
What happened to "sticks and stones..."? Serious question. I dont go out of my way to insult people but still...

"Sticks and stones" was meant to reassure/empower those who are forced to endure taunting and ridicule. It's not really intended to reassure/empower people to be free with insults.

It's kind of the whole "Freedom of Speech" thing. A certain demographic seems to labor under the misunderstanding that "Freedom of Speech" means "Freedom to be an enormous asshole, free of all consequence or censure".

Sparrow:
snip!

I am not on a crusade exactly, I made the friendzone post because I've been seeing an obnoxious abundance of friendzone memes, so I made a post to rant my view on it. And of course, there was misogyny there. So I've kind of gone into feminist mode. This thread was made because I made the mistake of reading through the super model thread. Like, I knew I shouldn't have clicked on it, because I knew it was going to make me angry, but I did anyway. I'm probably a mental masochist. But yeah, here we are.

I have posted in a few other threads completely unrelated to women, just not a lot recently.

And of course a lot of the laws relate to men as well as women. The thing is, in the model post, from what I could stomach of it, no one mentioned male models, no one hates on them. In that thread someone referred to models as "walking skeleton freaks", or a "glorified picture frame". All these awful comments were directed towards female models. Male models weren't even mentioned because no one seems to hate on them. And not all male models are huge and buff, quite the opposite actually. Generally male models are toned but not ripped. Unless they're in an athletics catalog or whatever.

Yes, men can sleep around too, it's their right. But generally, (at least in my experience) guys don't get nearly as much crap for sleeping around as women do.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

What happened to "sticks and stones..."? Serious question. I dont go out of my way to insult people but still...

"Stick and stones may break your bones, but I'm going to try as hard as I can to hurt you with my words as possible." To say that words hold no power is ridiculous. I tried and tried throughout my childhood to make myself believe that idiom, but it just doesn't work. Some of us on this planet are all sensitive and shit.

There are worse things than becoming a kind and accepting person. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I know it doesn't win you any awards or make you any friends, but it makes it easier to sleep when you think more highly of people. No reason to take on the baggage of others because you've found reasons to not like it. Why waste even a second of your mental capacity judging another person?

zehydra:

Spot1990:

zehydra:
This is just anecdotal evidence, but I find that most of the "slut shaming" comes from other women, not from men.

Agreed it's something that needs to be stopped, but I think you'll find that many men would be on board with putting an end to it. It's women that need to get it.

Really? Because on these forums I see a lot of it coming from guys. I think it's coming from the insane amount of white knighting you see nerds/geeks do. "If I show women what I really care about is their personality then they'll have to like me... But what's the best way to do that... Oh I know, straight up insulting any woman with the gall to be physically attractive."

It's like most things these kinds of guys do. When I say these kinds of guys I don't mean nerds/geeks, I'm talking about "nice guys", not guys who happen to be nice, but "nice guys". Y'know, the guys who are actually hateful misogynistic assholes who hope if they listen to a girls problems she'll fall in love with them, nay not hope, feel they deserve it.

I hate to break it to you, but most of the "nice guys" that you've described are nerds/geeks

Oh I know, but I made the distinction because most "nice guys" are nerds/geeks, but most nerds/geeks aren't "nice guys". At least I hope not.

museofdoom:
And of course a lot of the laws relate to men as well as women. The thing is, in the model post, from what I could stomach of it, no one mentioned male models, no one hates on them. In that thread someone referred to models as "walking skeleton freaks", or a "glorified picture frame". All these awful comments were directed towards female models. Male models weren't even mentioned because no one seems to hate on them. And not all male models are huge and buff, quite the opposite actually. Generally male models are toned but not ripped. Unless they're in an athletics catalog or whatever.

Modeling is a fairly ugly industry. It's mercenary and cut-throat, and it seems to take a heavy psychological toll on its constituents. I have a hard time taking issue with discouraging anyone...woman or male...from endorsing the industry in its current state. However, I agree that spewing bile at the models themselves is probably not the best way to go about it. Misdirected anger at best, naked misogyny at worst.

And by the way, you don't need to rationalize your desire to talk about women's issues and not spend an equal amount of time doting on men's. This is a goddam forum, you can talk about whatever you want to talk about. If I wanted to make a thread celebrating the scrotum I should feel free to do so, and somehow I doubt women would storm it demanding equal time for the vagina. The same should apply here. For some reason every time a thread appears in these forums with even a whiff of estrogen around it, a certain demographic feels threatened, panics, and loses their minds.