A lot of guys seem to really erroneously think that men are a minority because because all areas of law like pushing babies on women(the "child custody" anti-feminists, for instance). And that feminists don't care about men's problems at all just because they realize society is a patriarchy and women are a minority(being a minority isn't about numbers. It's about social status. See: apartheid South Africa).

Well, I'm here to say that I hate slut shaming. And that is has another, also horrible counterpart for men: virgin shaming. Sad thing about double standards is, men don't get much slut shaming, as they get virgin shaming.

This is as common on the internet as anywhere. Of course, most virgin shaming comes from guys at other guys. Guys really go after other guys when they start arguing with other guys, that the other person is a "pathetic virgin". Seriously, how many times have you seen this insult on the internet? I've probably seen it several thousand times.

There are guys in high school who have started admitting they aren't actually super interested in having sex right now, they just want to have sex with a popular girl so that they can brag to friends about "getting laid", to be loved by their male peers. Because a man often literally feels judged for not sexually conquesting women. It's a disgusting pressure men should not have, and I know I'm going to take flack for this, but quite honestly, quite a bit misogynist.

The idea that "men give love to get sex" is a stupid lie. And in many cases, men probably have sex to get love, ...from their peers. A lot of men want to have sex more, just to feel better about themselves. A very, very unhealthy desire and social pressure.

Furthermore, I think that virgin shaming and slut shaming are directly related to each. And as a feminist(or at least a woman heavily influenced by it), I am, quite frankly, disgusted by the situation of gender both ways. Women should not be expected to not have sex, and men should not be expected to have sex.

I would like to add to this, there is some minor slut shaming for men and virgin shaming for women. I think the virgin-whore dichotomy is worse for women. But the pressure for men to have lots of sex is fairly unique and also downright disgusting. It's almost like all men are expected to be imperialists sexually. Especially if you're a young man and not some old political figure. And I don't think men would be expected to be sexually active if women weren't expected to be sexually pure.

Just out of interest, what would you consider to be slut shaming?

Because I got a lot of shit for being turned off by women who were... Well, lets call them promiscuous. I dunno guys, I just cant go into a relationship knowing the woman next to me has slept with more than 20 men, some of them at the same time. It just aint fucking sexy man. I dont want to pressure every woman into being a fucking nun until she meets me at which point she should drop her pants faster than a guy who had taco bell for lunch, but I think a little self control (and respect) isnt always amiss. Just to be clear, I dont refuse to sleep with anyone who is not a virgin like some men out there, but you know.

Vault101:
also if I guy has "virgin" as a pre-requisite...yeah..fuck you

I know right?

HOW DARE PEOPLE HAVE PREFERENCES??? HOW DARE THEY?!?!? DAMN FUCKING SEXIST PIGS!

Vault101:
I dont think anyone is "unpure" or "corrupted" if they have had sex

Bah, and I was all set on charging in yelling "Corrupt me, defile me, make me unpure, PLEASE!"

Remembering "sex sells", media and entertainment have no reason to talk about the large portion of the male population that gives up on sex in favor of the perpetual bachelor's lifestyle: dirty apartment, bad hygiene, video game marathons, etc.

In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential.

Courtship brings out good qualities in people. Obviously for men who have to turn on the charm to try and get laid, but also for women whose traditional job is to delay the lay without causing the gentleman to lose interest, which requires that she turn on the charm as well. The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.

Matthew94:
I have NEVER seen a man think they are in the minority, ever.

Then you don't have much experience with anti-feminists.

Matthew94:
2. The way feminists twist issues so they are the victim.

It's not twisting. It's the truth. Treating women as an object of sexual conquest isn't exactly flattering.

Most of the problems men face in society due to sexist double standards, is because of male supremacist thought.

isometry:
bad hygiene

Then, shouldn't people focus on their unhealthy lifestyle or whatever, instead of attacking their sex life? Some people don't want to have sex, and that's okay.

Also, bachelors and virgins aren't the same thing. There are many "bachelors" who have loads of sex, and are praised for it.

isometry:
women whose traditional job is to delay the lay

Thus, the social problem of "slut shaming".

isometry:
The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.

There's nothing wrong with giving up on courtship.

And there's no reason for men to be eager to have sex or women to try to put it off. This in itself is a very uncharming aspect of human culture. Men shouldn't be treating sex as a gift or reward to be earned. And women shouldn't be afraid to have sex when they want to. This whole thing is making the dating world very predatory and sexist.

isometry:
Remembering "sex sells", media and entertainment have no reason to talk about the large portion of the male population that gives up on sex in favor of the perpetual bachelor's lifestyle: dirty apartment, bad hygiene, video game marathons, etc.

In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential.

Courtship brings out good qualities in people. Obviously for men who have to turn on the charm to try and get laid, but also for women whose traditional job is to delay the lay without causing the gentleman to lose interest, which requires that she turn on the charm as well. The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.

Why must courtships and sex be the same thing? There ARE sex clubs out there. This isn't the tribal era where sex must be with courtship.

The age when sex MUST be with courtship are long gone. Its antiquated. You also don't need to date someone for a personality to develop. To say that your "charms" depends on someone else for validation is a pathetic argument.

Ultratwinkie:

isometry:
Remembering "sex sells", media and entertainment have no reason to talk about the large portion of the male population that gives up on sex in favor of the perpetual bachelor's lifestyle: dirty apartment, bad hygiene, video game marathons, etc.

In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential.

Courtship brings out good qualities in people. Obviously for men who have to turn on the charm to try and get laid, but also for women whose traditional job is to delay the lay without causing the gentleman to lose interest, which requires that she turn on the charm as well. The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.

Why must courtships and sex be the same thing? There ARE sex clubs out there. This isn't the tribal era where sex must be with courtship.

The age when sex MUST be with courtship are long gone. Its antiquated. You also don't need to date someone for a personality to develop. To say that your "charms" depends on someone else for validation is a pathetic argument.

My whole point is that courtship is one way to bring out the best in people. It motivates them to improve their lives, be successful, sharpen their mental abilities, do interesting things.

It has nothing to do with "validation from other people", it has to do with deep instinctual motivation that comes from evolution. Here is an article about a psychological study that found men use a larger vocabulary when courting:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201003/men-use-fancy-words-impress-the-ladies

This is just a case of psychology proving something obvious that we all know from personal experience: courtship leads to self-improvement.

As for sex without courtship, that's fine but who cares. The whole point is that courtship leads to self-improvement, that is why society frowns on men who give up and women who put out too quickly.

Bodies are bodies. Do what you want, just make sure that you share it when the time comes that you will be entering a sexual encounter. Were I a guy, I would want to know if my girl has an STD. As a lady, I do want to know if it would be my guy's first time. Friends and acquaintances, though, that's their business. I won't shame a lady who has had multiple partners, and no way I would shame a guy for not having sex yet. Having sex to look cool is really lame, though. "It's my body and it's my choice" can apply to guys, too, in this sense.

And some dudes have a virgin preference? I'm honestly interested to understand that. Unless it's some sort of fetish. Is it some sort of fetish?

Matthew94:
Nope, I clearly don't. Seeing as the split of men/women is roughly 50/50 neither can be called a minority.

As I already stated in the OP, knowing someone would make this ignorant statement.

Being a minority isn't about numbers. It's about social status. See: Apartheid South Africa.

Whites clearly had lower numbers than blacks. But blacks were still the minority.

Matthew94:
And that's where I leave this thread.

If you think "male supremacy" is the source of nearly all of the problems men and women face then I just won't bother with you.

I doubt you'll mind much either.

Then you'll stay ignorant of the truth.

isometry:
It has nothing to do with "validation from other people", it has to do with deep instinctual motivation that comes from evolution.

Oh great, most "humans have sexist instincts" crap. At this rate, this is going to devolve into an evolutionary psychology/"scientific" sexism thread.

Not to mention psychology hardly counts as a "science" and psychology today can hardly claim anything about human instinct. You just cited psychology today to prove your claim about sexist instincts. Not something about neurology. This sort of thing is as scientifically bunk as Charles Murray's The Bell Curve.

While no virgin, my view of loveless casual sex as "extravagant masturbation" shares some ground with this. Simply put, I don't think the trouble of having sex with some random person of relative-high hotness is worth the effort and I feel that you can have a more productive not as emotionally numb existence by satisfying your animal urges yourself when they arise and waiting to find that one special person to love and have proper sex with.

I know I'm a romantic and I put ***** on a pedestal and whatnot but meh, I'm happy being this way! :D

Matthew94:
It's no better than the "men are the source of the worlds problems" argument.

Men != Patriarchy. This is the problem with typical antifeminism and other people getting defensive about privilege. Always asserting that when someone says something like "patriarchy" or "male supremacist thought" or "male privilege" or in terms of race, "white privilege", they're saying that white heterosexual men are evil and need to go away.

That's a farcical strawman. I'm tired of anti-feminists using these farcical, extreme comparisons to things. Society is littered with male supremacist thought. It's called male privilege. In fact most language lends itself to the idea that men are better than women.

It doesn't mean that men are bad or even to blame. It means that male privilege exist as a descriptor of society.

Vault101:
I think in highschool (all girls boarding school people)

there are alot of mixed messages wtih girls and sexuality...its "bad" to be a "slut" aparently (but its ok for guys?)

aproaching sex with the "pure virgin" mindset makes you niave and is also a bad thing

but dont let anyone get ahold of photos/video or any info whats so ever...then that makes you a dirty slut

so its bad to be a virgin and also bad to have sex..makes sense

personally I dont veiw virginity as anything particually sacred or shameful, nor would I put sex on a pedastal

also if I guy has "virgin" as a pre-requisite...yeah..fuck you

I think that high school and college males would prefer a virgin because then they are both inexperienced. That way, we feel that we can justify the awkward moment by sharing mutual agreement. I think it is a defense mechanism to avoid embarassment so they don't humiliate themselves with someone who has already had sex.

LilithSlave:

isometry:
It has nothing to do with "validation from other people", it has to do with deep instinctual motivation that comes from evolution.

Oh great, most "humans have sexist instincts" crap. At this rate, this is going to devolve into an evolutionary psychology/"scientific" sexism thread.

Not to mention psychology hardly counts as a "science" and psychology today can hardly claim anything about human instinct. You just cited psychology today to prove your claim about sexist instincts. Not something about neurology. This sort of thing is as scientifically bunk as Charles Murray's The Bell Curve.

Stop being so adversarial and glib. It ruins any chance for a good discussion. You aren't thinking about what I'm saying, you just see me as some kind of enemy. I am not an enemy who thinks sluts and virgins are terrible. I am just trying to give an analysis for why society sends us those messages through entertainment and media. I want to understand where the idea that sluts and virgins are bad comes from.

Guess what? I hate psychology too, I think it's bunk science as well. The only reason I used that link is because I'm trying to explain how society thinks about courtship.

Vault101:

isometry:
Remembering "sex sells", media and entertainment have no reason to talk about the large portion of the male population that gives up on sex in favor of the perpetual bachelor's lifestyle: dirty apartment, bad hygiene, video game marathons, etc.

thats not a "bachelors" lifstyle, thats a guy living on his own who doesnt know how to clean up afterhimself lifestyle

I agree with you, "bachelor" was not a specific enough term. I mean more than just a messy apartment though, I mean young men who have let themselves go in various unhealthy ways, physically and mentally.

Vault101:

In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential.

what if some people dont want to be in a relationship..or bother with relationships. What if they arnt bothering with that BUT are prusing some other goal?

like...say...getting through their degree rather than partying/fucking the time away

That's exactly what I did for a lot of college and graduate school. Incidentally, I was never once pressured by my guy friends over women, if anything peer pressure related to alcohol was a lot more common.

Vault101:

Courtship brings out good qualities in people. Obviously for men who have to turn on the charm to try and get laid, but also for women whose traditional job is to delay the lay without causing the gentleman to lose interest, which requires that she turn on the charm as well. The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.

so unless we are in a constant state of courship....we are failures?

That's not what I meant. There are plenty of ways to get motivated, and courtship just happens to be one of the most powerful. My goal is to understand why society tells us that virgins and sluts are bad, and I think viewing courtship as a major motivation for self-improvement goes a ways towards explaining that. Life is full of great experiences, just because someone misses one of them doesn't make them a failure.

This is a good statement, but I not sure what the discussion value is, so I'll just mention that a friend of mine said he did something sexual with someone from his school. And he is younger than me. And I'm only 16 next week.

I think most of the "virgin shaming" you refer to ends around high school. I think when the average person sees that insult on the internet, the giver is usually a 12 year old who either hasn't actually had sex or somehow managed to have disgusting illegal underage sex. The thing is, guys really don't care what other guys do. *massive brick of life story incoming*

isometry:

That's exactly what I did for a lot of college and graduate school. Incidentally, I was never once pressured by my guy friends over women, if anything peer pressure related to alcohol was a lot more common.

This. I never hear anyone "pressured" into sex, but I hear alcohol peer pressure all the time. When I tell men I don't drink (and never have) they look at me like I have three heads. I've also heard "I'm gonna get you drunk" and "I want to see what you're like drunk." I feel like as soon as people know I don't drink, there's an immediate sense of distrust and I'm out of the group. (Not that I care. I'm not into men anyways.)

Guys are always scheduling drink dates with each other. It's... weird.

zelda2fanboy:
When I tell men I don't drink (and never have) they look at me like I have three heads.

I agreed with you completely in your previous post, but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

Loop Stricken:

I agreed with you completely in your previous post, but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

I'm not, but booze is pretty universal. I once had a conversation online with a woman from the Philippines and she had a similar reaction. My reasons are numerous, personal, and would warrant their own thread or blog entry.... but I'll put them all here.

I agree with the OP. I'd also say that slutshaming and virginshaming couldn't exist without the other (at least in our set up), but I'm not so sure.

Oh, and yeah, usual deliberate misinterpretations of anything to do with feminism, patriarchy isn't supposed to be some shadowy conspiracy of all men, women aren't all just trying to play victims, minority refers to power imbalance, not raw numbers etc.

zelda2fanboy:

Loop Stricken:

I agreed with you completely in your previous post, but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

I'm not, but booze is pretty universal. I once had a conversation online with a woman from the Philippines and she had a similar reaction. My reasons are numerous, personal, and would warrant their own thread or blog entry.... but I'll put them all here.

Spoiler: Click to 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

I used to think like you. Then I took about eight pints of cider to the liver. It's not much NOW, since I've moved onto whiskey, but I was what, 22 and never drank before?

Ah, but it sure was fun though.

Oddly enough, the only virgin shaming I've ever had was after I had lost my virginity

but I didn't correct the person because it was my date's brother

that would have been awkward.......