Colour-Scientist:

Owyn_Merrilin:

Actually, the dildo was invented millennia ago. The vibrator was a Victorian invention. (Almost) all vibrators are dildos; not anywhere near all dildos are (or were, at any rate) vibrators. Other than that, I don't really have anything to disagree with in this post.

Just to nit-pick, the Victorian period was roughly 150 years ago, not 1000.

Yes, but dildos have been around at least as long as humans have (probably longer in fact; female chimpanzees have been known to make them). Simply put, not all dildos are vibrators.

Oh my god, I hate feminists so much, and not because of what they stand for. It's the way they always seem to present themselves. This thread has done nothing good for feminism, and has probably only made people respect feminists less. Total equality will never exist, and that's because of double standards, which will never go away. And that's good! Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed, should he not be looked down upon and be allowed to do it because women can? And when it comes to work and salary, women generally make the same amount of money as men IF they are doing the same work. The thing is that men often have higher paying jobs because of legitimate reasons - that doesn't mean that the opportunity for women to have them doesn't exist.

The Rainmaker:
Oh my god, I hate feminists so much, and not because of what they stand for. It's the way they always seem to present themselves. This thread has done nothing good for feminism, and has probably only made people respect feminists less. Total equality will never exist, and that's because of double standards, which will never go away. And that's good! Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed, should he not be looked down upon and be allowed to do it because women can? And when it comes to work and salary, women generally make the same amount of money as men IF they are doing the same work. The thing is that men often have higher paying jobs because of legitimate reasons - that doesn't mean that the opportunity for women to have them doesn't exist.

I actually watched a program on TV the other day - on one of Germanys more classy channels mind, none of this CNN stuff - and apparently the difference between men and womens wages (in Germany) is 4,3%. For people doing the same job, of course.

Thats 4,3% too much, but its a far cry from the 25% statistic some organizations have been throwing out there these past few weeks.

The Rainmaker:
Oh my god, I hate feminists so much, and not because of what they stand for. It's the way they always seem to present themselves. This thread has done nothing good for feminism, and has probably only made people respect feminists less. Total equality will never exist, and that's because of double standards, which will never go away. And that's good! Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed, should he not be looked down upon and be allowed to do it because women can? And when it comes to work and salary, women generally make the same amount of money as men IF they are doing the same work. The thing is that men often have higher paying jobs because of legitimate reasons - that doesn't mean that the opportunity for women to have them doesn't exist.

What's wrong with male breast feeding? sure.. it's different I guess. But they need to be shamed and looked down upon? that's just silly.

so... you're saying that double standards are good because they support gender roles... that women HAVE to do this and men HAVE to do this...

>.> that idea doesn't sound good, I think I'd rather have men breast feeding children than to have something like that be even more supported. I hate gender roles

I am a twenty six year old virgin who has never even seen a female naked "besides when i was a kid". In all honesty I don't give a sh*t anymore about it and those who want to make fun of me, well come at me bro.

Cecilthedarkknight_234:
I am a twenty six year old virgin who has never even seen a female naked "besides when i was a kid". In all honesty I don't give a sh*t anymore about it and those who want to make fun of me, well come at me bro.

If i was gonna make fun of someone "locations that your dick has been" are pretty far low down on the list. Does anyone who anyone REALLY respects care anyway? Its always that generic "jock" douchebag character type who cares about this kinda thing. No real person ive met assigns too much thought to it.

LilithSlave:
A lot of guys seem to really erroneously think that men are a minority because because all areas of law like pushing babies on women(the "child custody" anti-feminists, for instance). And that feminists don't care about men's problems at all just because they realize society is a patriarchy and women are a minority(being a minority isn't about numbers. It's about social status. See: apartheid South Africa).

Well, I'm here to say that I hate slut shaming. And that is has another, also horrible counterpart for men: virgin shaming. Sad thing about double standards is, men don't get much slut shaming, as they get virgin shaming.

This is as common on the internet as anywhere. Of course, most virgin shaming comes from guys at other guys. Guys really go after other guys when they start arguing with other guys, that the other person is a "pathetic virgin". Seriously, how many times have you seen this insult on the internet? I've probably seen it several thousand times.

There are guys in high school who have started admitting they aren't actually super interested in having sex right now, they just want to have sex with a popular girl so that they can brag to friends about "getting laid", to be loved by their male peers. Because a man often literally feels judged for not sexually conquesting women. It's a disgusting pressure men should not have, and I know I'm going to take flack for this, but quite honestly, quite a bit misogynist.

The idea that "men give love to get sex" is a stupid lie. And in many cases, men probably have sex to get love, ...from their peers. A lot of men want to have sex more, just to feel better about themselves. A very, very unhealthy desire and social pressure.

Furthermore, I think that virgin shaming and slut shaming are directly related to each. And as a feminist(or at least a woman heavily influenced by it), I am, quite frankly, disgusted by the situation of gender both ways. Women should not be expected to not have sex, and men should not be expected to have sex.

I would like to add to this, there is some minor slut shaming for men and virgin shaming for women. I think the virgin-whore dichotomy is worse for women. But the pressure for men to have lots of sex is fairly unique and also downright disgusting. It's almost like all men are expected to be imperialists sexually. Especially if you're a young man and not some old political figure. And I don't think men would be expected to be sexually active if women weren't expected to be sexually pure.

Unfortunately I am one of such men who is slammed for being a virgin. Why is it such a bad thing to treat woman like my equals instead of being a sex obsessed jock that only views woman as tools for desire?

The Rainmaker:
Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed

Men can breast-feed? But...they don't have breasts. I mean, not actual breasts, and at least not in the sense that they can produce milk out of them. Unless I'm completely wrong, since I fail at biology.

Relish in Chaos:

The Rainmaker:
Imagine if a man wanted to breast-feed

Men can breast-feed? But...they don't have breasts. I mean, not actual breasts, and at least not in the sense that they can produce milk out of them. Unless I'm completely wrong, since I fail at biology.

Take it with a grain of salt, because I read it on Cracked.com, but apparently all of the equipment is there, and if you let the baby suckle enough, things start to flow.

LilithSlave:

Matthew94:
And that's where I leave this thread.

If you think "male supremacy" is the source of nearly all of the problems men and women face then I just won't bother with you.

I doubt you'll mind much either.

Then you'll stay ignorant of the truth.

As for the original post (and back on subject) I mostly agree with it, there is that tension towards men, I can't even begin to count how often I was bullied in school for being a virgin, not to mention how often I was called gay (even by relatives [male and female]) because I had no interest in sex.

Vault101:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Vault101:
also if I guy has "virgin" as a pre-requisite...yeah..fuck you

I know right?

HOW DARE PEOPLE HAVE PREFERENCES??? HOW DARE THEY?!?!? DAMN FUCKING SEXIST PIGS!

alright..I may have come across as a little more agressive than needed..suuure its their right and all

but its damn hypocritical if you ask me (mabye less if they guy himself is a virgin) to me its less about treating me as a person..and more as property..or a "prize"

liek I said..I dont think virginity is all that "special" and coming from the days of relious, I dont think anyone is "unpure" or "corrupted" if they have had sex

I'll throw my hat in and say that I wanted a virgin (as a virgin) and it wasn't because of a "prize" or anything, it was more of a comfort issue, that pressure that if I was with a woman who had experienced it before (perhaps many a time even) that I'd be judged and wouldn't meet her expectations. It was just my personal feeling I'm just throwing it out there, I will also add that I do feel like men that like to sleep around and celebrate whenever they get a virgin girl with them are acting a scummy, especially if they deceive said girl. (I have a friend that was used like that.)

I took a couple days break from a thread again. I hope nobody blames me, it's a healthy thing to do. After all, arguing is tiresome, and often more pointless than people give it credit for. I think I've contributed enough to this thread already anyway.

I need my "me time" sometimes.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
If the market for porn specifically for females was big enough

There would be a larger market for women if so much of the mainstream pornographic material wasn't so offensive toward women.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Do you think theres some sort of conspiracy to NOT make porn women enjoy, no matter what profits it could bring?

Do you automatically think that if someone claims that something is not fair, and that one group has privilege over another, that there's some kind of conspiracy at work?

Someone should be able to criticize cultural norms without being blamed of believing in some kind of malicious conspiracy.

Oh look, people are yelling at eachother in an article about sexism!

I'm so amazingly surprised!

First off, I'm going to say I agree very much with the idea you're trying to get across, I just have some issues with the particulars. Virgin shaming is definitely one of the more shameful parts of society in general, not just the male portion. I don't know about you, but I have seen a fair bit of virgin shaming on the female side as well. I think a large part of virgin shaming isn't just about sexual conquest over a woman, but also a sign of inadequacy. Sure, people will phrase it as "You couldn't get a girl if you wanted to", but the part that really stings is the subtext of "No girl would WANT to get with you". I'm sure that there are people that legitimately do think of it as a matter of conquest, but most of the guys I know don't see it as anything like that.

I live in Canada and I don't think I've ever been the target of virgin shaming, at least not to my face. There's always been a slight pressure to have sex placed on me, but I've never felt that it was anything to be ashamed of. This is to the extent that I had sex several months ago and didn't feel any need to let anyone know I wasn't a virgin anymore. Congrats! You're the first to hear. Now don't you feel special?

LilithSlave:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
If the market for porn specifically for females was big enough

There would be a larger market for women if so much of the mainstream pornographic material wasn't so offensive toward women.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Do you think theres some sort of conspiracy to NOT make porn women enjoy, no matter what profits it could bring?

Do you automatically think that if someone claims that something is not fair, and that one group has privilege over another, that there's some kind of conspiracy at work?

Someone should be able to criticize cultural norms without being blamed of believing in some kind of malicious conspiracy.

This seems REALLY off topic. I haven't read all 12 pages so I don't know how exactly how smooth the transition went from virgin shaming to male oriented porn, but it does seem like quite a stretch.

EDIT: As this topic seems to be also very much about slut shaming, I may as well put up my opinions of that as well. As disappointed as I am to say it, when I hear that a girl has slept with a lot of guys it does initially give me a negative opinion. Now, on the other hand when a guy has slept with a lot of girls then I get the same feeling. I'm definitely not someone who puts sex on this almighty pedestal, it's physical pleasure, why read anything more into it then you need to? But even so, I find myself comparing them to people I know who are manipulative and feel no issue doing whatever it takes to get someone in bed. Actually after hearing excerpts from "The Game" I'm almost more judgmental about guys sleeping around. It's just a knee-jerk reaction though, and it rarely persists past the initial impression.

This topic has been all over the place, it really has.

LilithSlave:
This topic has been all over the place, it really has.

Sadly I'm seeing a lot more people accusing you of being a feminazi than arguing against your points

LilithSlave:
I took a couple days break from a thread again. I hope nobody blames me, it's a healthy thing to do. After all, arguing is tiresome, and often more pointless than people give it credit for. I think I've contributed enough to this thread already anyway.

I need my "me time" sometimes.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
If the market for porn specifically for females was big enough

There would be a larger market for women if so much of the mainstream pornographic material wasn't so offensive toward women.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Do you think theres some sort of conspiracy to NOT make porn women enjoy, no matter what profits it could bring?

Do you automatically think that if someone claims that something is not fair, and that one group has privilege over another, that there's some kind of conspiracy at work?

Someone should be able to criticize cultural norms without being blamed of believing in some kind of malicious conspiracy.

I will ask you again: why do you think there is so little porn for women out there? I mean, thats not really true anyway, but you seem to think so, so explain it.

Cultural and social norms? Ridiculous. The porn industry makes what makes them a profit. If there was a market for even MORE porn that appeals to women, it would be out there. The only reason the industry could possibly have for not making porn for females is that they dont watch it (waiting for you to somehow turn that into proof of male dominance, its going to be hilarious), or that there really is some sort of conspiracy going on.

You can only have a reasonable issue with one of those possibilities, so obviously I assume its that one, but I guess expecting reason from your posts in threads like these is a tall order.

The Almighty Aardvark:

LilithSlave:
This topic has been all over the place, it really has.

Sadly I'm seeing a lot more people accusing you of being a feminazi than arguing against your points

One day, when you have reached 3000 posts, you will understand Liliths points a rarely worth arguing against.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
I will ask you again: why do you think there is so little porn for women out there?

I like how that, because you didn't like the response you got the first time, you think it's a good idea to ask the same thing again.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Cultural and social norms? Ridiculous. The porn industry makes what makes them a profit.

NOT ridiculous! And you seem to think that cultural and social norms are not related to what many people think is profitable? Of course they are.

Just because something is profitable does not mean it not a part of something bad. It's just like the problems with the video game industry, people may think primary audience is white males. That doesn't many the tendency any less problematic. White males should not be the primary target for video games and people of other groups would be just as interested if they were just as catered to.

People who are supposedly not in the audience aren't naturally not in the audience. For instance, it's not black people's fault they aren't seen as the primary target audience for video games. And it's not women's fault they're not seen as the target audience for porn.

And mainstream porn does more than not much cater to women's desires at all. It tends to portray an incredibly degrading image of women.

You're blaming women for not having an industry, that nobody wants to cater to them, because they're not interested. But it's because nobody wants to cater to them, that they're not interested. And again, to add to that, most porn doesn't just not cater to them, but gives arguably the most consistently offensive portray of women of ANY media. The porn industry is incredibly exploitative of women, even if the women involved are consenting, confident, and not in any way pressured emotionally to take part in a sex act.

the most interesting part is a woman trying to argue why virgin shaming is an issue among men. If your not a man you can argue striving for the alpha man position in the pack is stupid, but thats just hardwired in our "wanting to pass our genes along" system. Hate it or love it, every man deep down feels the need to prove himself. Thats where sexual conquests, phalus size, skill in sport and gear item level of your paladin rear their ugly head.

my second observation after glancing over this bohemoth, is that I think this is mostly a high school thing. In college and after male and female "sluts" get similar reactions. Either admiration, indifference or jealous scorn.

once you get past the "you can drink anywhere in the world legally" age people generally stop openly caring about the way you choose to live your life. They might think it, they might post about it on the internet, but in the end nobody REALLY cares.

Rblade:
the most interesting part is a woman trying to argue why virgin shaming is an issue among men.

Oh geez, the irony here is that what led to this topic, was a masculinist arguing how horrible feminism is, because while women face slut shaming, men face virgin shaming, which is a big problem that feminists should care about, but in his mind, don't.

So if I don't care about virgin shaming, I'm a filthy, hypocritical, misandrist feminist, but if I take up a fight against virgin shaming, I'm an ignorant woman who doesn't realize what being a man is because I'm not one. How quaint.

Rblade:
Hate it or love it, every man deep down feels the need to prove himself.

Gosh, all this hardwired stuff again. I wish I had just a penny for every time I've heard this unfounded abuse of sociobiology. I'd be rich just off the pennies, enough to fill an ocean.

You don't speak for every man. And heck, if you're so adept in your knowledge of what you think the male brain is. Please do bestow upon us your enlightening neurological data. That because of how men have loads of sperm they can shoot out each day, that they have spots in their brain, hardwire, dedicated to being a social problem that wishes to dominate over women and every possible group.

You know, just because men have a "hardwired" or "instinctual" desire to have sex, and are able to essentially impregnate people per day. And that we're wired to have sex for the survival of the species. Does not mean that all men have these desires for sexual conquest. That's not how "instinct" works. At all. Being "hardwired" would mean something like men had evolved, and there was literally evidence in the mind, in the brain, of things dedicated towards driving men toward multiple sex partners. Which there is no evidence for. And to act otherwise, is just to be part of a continued slew of misappropriating terms like "hardwired" and "instinct" and sociobiology in general.

This needs to stop, because it's sad, and ignorant, and not any better than Creation "science". And far, far too common.

I'm a virgin at uni, its ok. It gets brought up every now and again, but to be honest, noone really takes it that seriously. I can get girls, even more than some of those who aren't virgin, I just never "seal the deal" mostly due to my personal choice/lack of confidence.

As with most banter, you have to be prepared to take it and give some out in return, its only an issue if you let it get to you, and that's more a problem with yourself than your peers in my opinion.

(And before anyone says anything, yes bullying is a problem, but it isnt always the bully's fault, they may just be joking around and trying to laugh with you not at you. If it does upset you, tell them and they should stop. If they dont, try to avoid them, it worked for me during my school years.)

LilithSlave:
Just because something is profitable does not mean it not a part of something bad. It's just like the problems with the video game industry, people may think primary audience is white males. That doesn't many the tendency any less problematic. White males should not be the primary target for video games and people of other groups would be just as interested if they were just as catered to.

Oh look! Its this again! Lets debunk it a second time, shall we? But please, let this be the last I explain this to you in one of your threads.

Top 10 games on the Gamespot homepage, not handpicked by me;

1) Total War: Shogun 2 - a RTS/empire building game playing in feudal Japan. Landscape is dominated by Asian males, because thats the way it was back then. No tits, no catering.

2) Mass Effect 3 - Caters to everyone and everything.

3) Skullgirls - Maximum pandering. Point for you.

4) Xenoblade Chronicles - Havent played it, but its a JRPG, so its full of chicks and guys who looks like chicks. Hardly pandering to white powerhungry males.

5) Blacklight Retribution - Shoot people while a terrible dubstep soundtrack plays in the background. Male and female characters. Played it, didnt see much pandering going on.

6) Journey - Dont think I have to say anything about this one.

7) Confrontation - As far as I know its some DOTA game, which means there will be loads of female mages running around in tight clothing. Point to you.

8) Kinect Star Wars - IM HAN SOLOS. Nuff said.

9) Ridge Racer - Racing game. Guess it panders to males cause its about fast cars. Another point to you.

10) Naval War - Early previews suggest its akin to Shogun 2. You build an empire. No pandering till now.

So, we have a sensational THREE GAMES PANDERING!!! Oh my God Lillith! You were right! Thats an incredible 30%!!!! So much pandering!!!

Unfortunately I dont know any porn sites that have a top 10 list of upcoming porn movies, but im sure if there were, the results would be simular. Theres more porn out there for women than you think, you just havent found it yet. You would rather spend your time bitching around. You know who told me this, by the way? A feminist! Yes, a proper feminist! One of those women that actually spends her time rationally analyzing our society instead of linking video games to übermensch philosophies!

LilithSlave:
The porn industry is incredibly exploitative of women, even if the women involved are consenting, confident, and not in any way pressured emotionally to take part in a sex act.

No shit Sherlock. Better take this one to Scotland yard.

Saying porn is exploitative of women is like saying football is exploitative of men or office jobs are exploitative of humans. They are using a work force they pay to make great profit. Thats how jobs work, you know. The only difference in porn is the people are naked and occasionally, the woman gets degraded a little, because a small percentage of people like me (including men AND women, by the way) enjoy stuff like that.

I dont know how "feminists" immediately think that automatically makes people like me think its ok to degrade unconsenting women in places other than a bedroom, but I can tell you that you are the only people making that link.

LilithSlave:
I like how that, because you didn't like the response you got the first time, you think it's a good idea to ask the same thing again.

No, I got a lacking response the first time, so I asked again, hoping for a slightly less lacking response.

My wishes rarely do come true.

LilithSlave:
snip

I dont know where you studied this stuff, but that place needs to be shut down, fast.

It was some crazy school, right? You didnt get your information on the human brain and social hardwiring from random internet sites? Of course you did, why am I even asking.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
The only difference in porn is the people are naked and occasionally, the woman gets degraded a little, because a small percentage of people like me (including men AND women, by the way) enjoy stuff like that.

It's funny how you can recognize the problem and at the same time belittle it. A "little" degraded? Honestly?

The only porn that does not do that is amateur, lesbian and gay porn, the latter because there's hardly any women in it.

MomoElektra:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
The only difference in porn is the people are naked and occasionally, the woman gets degraded a little, because a small percentage of people like me (including men AND women, by the way) enjoy stuff like that.

It's funny how you can recognize the problem and at the same time belittle it. A "little" degraded? Honestly?

The only porn that does not do that is amateur, lesbian and gay porn, the latter because there's hardly any women in it.

Amateur, lesbian, gay, BBW, anal (some women enjoy it you know), blonde, dancing, orgy, threesome, vintage... Just a few porn genres from the front page of Pornhub that are not necessarily degrading to women. Unless you consider a woman enjoying herself to be degrading because a man is somewhere in the picture, which would not surprise me in the slightest.

Im not acknowledging a problem. There is no problem. Some people like degrading porn - so what? Whats the problem with that? You tell me.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Oh look! Its this again! Lets debunk it a second time, shall we?

You haven't debunked it a first time. And you're not debunking it now, because you're wrong.

And there's more to pandering than sex. The vast majority of video games star white males. The majority also pander to a male power fantasy. And a lot of developers have readily admitted that they shy away from creating female characters because they don't think gamers want to play as a female.

Which is a sign of all sorts of problems. It's sad and problematic if developers don't want to make female lead characters. And it's even sadder if most gamers don't want to play as a female character.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Unfortunately I dont know any porn sites that have a top 10 list of upcoming porn movies, but im sure if there were, the results would be simular. Theres more porn out there for women than you think, you just havent found it yet.

I wouldn't be surprised if I looked at more porn than you. I spend a lot of time looking at porn and giving positive and negative critiques about its content and presentation. Especially yaoi, which is directed at women. I think I may have shared this before, but the majority of my irl friends are yaoi fangirls. By the way, I thoroughly admit there are some problems in yaoi, as well. The "seme" and "uke" thing can have some unfortunate implications quite often. I have the feeling that many of the folks in yaoi have internalized some sexist images. Or just are too afraid to change the status quo, because that's how yaoi has been done for so long. It's still a lot better than the images that mainstream pornography presents. And yes, yaoi fans, or more commonly known, "yaoi fangirls", are in the minority. And no major porn publishing outlet is interested in catering to them.

I am very, very certain, that the mainstream pornography industry has HUGE problems of male privilege. Not just being focused on catering to men, but on degrading women.

LilithSlave:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Oh look! Its this again! Lets debunk it a second time, shall we?

You haven't debunked it a first time. And you're not debunking it now, because you're wrong.

Actually, I just did. Twice.

LilithSlave:
I am very, very certain, that the mainstream pornography industry has HUGE problems of male privilege. Not just being focused on catering to men, but on degrading women.

Ignore the hentai shit for a few seconds, because no one here watches that shit so its irrelevant. I have twice asked you what the problem is and you have failed to answer. You just splutter "B-b-but... Degrading! What? Whats the problem with that? Well its... Its... Its degrading!"

Hey Lilith, guess what. Yeah. Yep, its coming. You finally did. You earned your spot on my ignore list.

Feel free to come back when you have gotten rid of all that vent up sexual frustration and are ready to stop acting like an embarrassment to feminists. I wish you lived in Germany, we have a feminist organization you could learn a lot from.

Anyway, goodbye! Keep fighting the good fight on random internet forums girl! You are changing the world!

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

MomoElektra:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
The only difference in porn is the people are naked and occasionally, the woman gets degraded a little, because a small percentage of people like me (including men AND women, by the way) enjoy stuff like that.

It's funny how you can recognize the problem and at the same time belittle it. A "little" degraded? Honestly?

The only porn that does not do that is amateur, lesbian and gay porn, the latter because there's hardly any women in it.

Amateur, lesbian, gay, BBW, anal (some women enjoy it you know), blonde, dancing, orgy, threesome, vintage... Just a few porn genres from the front page of Pornhub that are not necessarily degrading to women. Unless you consider a woman enjoying herself to be degrading because a man is somewhere in the picture, which would not surprise me in the slightest.

No, I call degrading her degrading. Like, you know, because that's what the word usually means. It's interesting that you mention "(some women enjoy it you know)", because I know that and it's not in dispute. Degradation can be exciting in role playing or what not.

But we were not discussing if women enjoyed it (the actors), not even if some women enjoyed watching that (because I'm sure some do, sometimes I like it myself) but if it was very often degrading. As in: Showing them being degraded.

It is basically standard nowadays. It wouldn't be that bad if there were more variety, if it were just one thing out of many (i.e. as in role playing, not for real like it is now), but there rarely is any. In mainstream porn at least.

Im not acknowledging a problem. There is no problem. Some people like degrading porn - so what? Whats the problem with that? You tell me.

There is too much of it. It's kind of like the only porn that exists noways (safe the ones I mentioned, which cater each to a very specific sub group, too). Too little variation.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Ignore the hentai shit for a few seconds, because no one here watches that shit so its irrelevant.

Translation: Ignore that relevant part that works in your favor because ignoring it works in my favor and I want to be right on this.

LilithSlave:

I wouldn't be surprised if I looked at more porn than you. I spend a lot of time looking at porn and giving positive and negative critiques about its content and presentation. Especially yaoi, which is directed at women. I think I may have shared this before, but the majority of my irl friends are yaoi fangirls.

This has to be one of the most hilariously straight faced things I've ever read. "Hmmm, that money shot looking particularly degrading, I'm pretty sure she said she didn't want it in her hair. Ah well, let's see what Anal Justice has in store; I hope he gets verbal consent beforehand or so help me god I'm going to take a point off".

LilithSlave:

Rblade:
the most interesting part is a woman trying to argue why virgin shaming is an issue among men.

Oh geez, the irony here is that what led to this topic, was a masculinist arguing how horrible feminism is, because while women face slut shaming, men face virgin shaming, which is a big problem that feminists should care about, but in his mind, don't.

So if I don't care about virgin shaming, I'm a filthy, hypocritical, misandrist feminist, but if I take up a fight against virgin shaming, I'm an ignorant woman who doesn't realize what being a man is because I'm not one. How quaint.

Rblade:
Hate it or love it, every man deep down feels the need to prove himself.

Gosh, all this hardwired stuff again. I wish I had just a penny for every time I've heard this unfounded abuse of sociobiology. I'd be rich just off the pennies, enough to fill an ocean.

You don't speak for every man. And heck, if you're so adept in your knowledge of what you think the male brain is. Please do bestow upon us your enlightening neurological data. That because of how men have loads of sperm they can shoot out each day, that they have spots in their brain, hardwire, dedicated to being a social problem that wishes to dominate over women and every possible group.

You know, just because men have an "hardwired" or "instinctual" desire to have sex, and are able to essentially impregnate people per day. And that we're wired to have sex for the survival of the species. Does not mean that all men have these desires for sexual conquest. That's not how "instinct" works. At all. Being "hardwired" would mean something like men had evolved, and there was literally evidence in the mind, in the brain, of things dedicated towards driving men toward multiple sex partners. Which there is no evidence for. And to act otherwise, is just to be part of a continued slew of misappropriating terms like "hardwired" and "instinct" and sociobiology in general.

This needs to stop, because it's sad, and ignorant, and not any better than Creation "science". And far, far too common.

Do I think that the different approach to the way we treat men and women needs to stop? yes.

Do I think it's fair women are approached as pure beings that can't "defile" themselfs and men as sexual predators? no.

Are men different from women? yes, ofcourse they are, they are driven by a completely different set of hormones. This does NOT excuse discrimination.

Do I think all men feel they need to measure up against their peers? absolutely, scream all you want about evidence in the brain but it's all over the animal kingdom. Evolution.

Should we take our massive brains and fight that kind of primal instinct? definitly.

and as a final statement. Along the lines of my last, ignored, point about this not mattering that much once people get older and stop giving a rats ass about other peoples hobbies. And also my biggest problem with feminist and every kind of lobby ever. Most people are of moderate opinion and can't really be bothered until someone starts screaming in their face about it. Thats when they get defensive.

Fight the real problem like salary inequality and oppresion. We will iron out the seams once we leveled the playing field

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Actually, I just did. Twice.

No, you didn't. Try spending a little more time attempting to prove your case instead of just stating you're right or that you've done so before. You have no only debunked my claims, you haven't even so much as approached a decent argument against them thus far.

LilithSlave:
Ignore the hentai shit for a few seconds, because no one here watches that shit so its irrelevant.

I'm not talking about hentai. I'm talking about mainstream pornography.

LilithSlave:
I have twice asked you what the problem is and you have failed to answer. You just splutter "B-b-but... Degrading! What? Whats the problem with that? Well its... Its... Its degrading!"

If you don't see what the problem is with degrading women, then you're not even attempting to hide being a misogynist. And you need to shape up, morally. Just my advice, I don't think that saying "degrading to women, so what?" is something to be particularly proud of.

LilithSlave:
Hey Lilith, guess what. Yeah. Yep, its coming. You finally did. You earned your spot on my ignore list.

Oh, do we have those? After basically saying "degrading to women, so what?" I would hope that you yourself have earned an "ignore list" on many users here.

axlryder:
This has to be one of the most hilariously straight faced things I've ever read. "Hmmm, that money shot looking particularly degrading, I'm pretty sure she said she didn't want it in her hair. Ah well, let's see what Anal Justice has in store, probably a wholesome morality tale about the betterment of both sexes".

I'm as sexual as anyone. I just think that people can get their rocks off without being degrading to women about it.

And how would I possibly be able to critique and make statements about the state of mainstream porn if I didn't look into it at all? Even hardcore anti-porn feminists have read quite a few copies of Hustler. Which I don't think I qualify as, by the way, but instead a "sex positive feminist". Which I don't seem to have come off as much of to you.

It's astounding how you think I'm giving feminism a bad name, but you're adamant in defending the video game and porn industry from any criticism. As if neither have anything wrong with them at all.

LilithSlave:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:
Oh look! Its this again! Lets debunk it a second time, shall we?

You haven't debunked it a first time. And you're not debunking it now, because you're wrong.

And there's more to pandering than sex. The vast majority of video games star white males. The majority also pander to a male power fantasy. And a lot of developers have readily admitted that they shy away from creating female characters because they don't think gamers want to play as a female.

Which is a sign of all sorts of problems. It's sad and problematic if developers don't want to make female lead characters. And it's even sadder if most gamers don't want to play as a female character.

Wait, hold on. Why is it sad if I, as a male gamer, don't want to play as a female character? Surely playing as the gender I am isn't a negative thing, is it? Unless 'play the character you are comfortable as' isn't the norm anymore.

As to the 'Vast majority of video games star white males' - well, yeah. A vast majority of games are made in countries where the majority population is White, and the majority of gamers are male. Japanese games star Japanese characters, African games star African characters, etc. It's a thing that happens. I'm doubting the 'Male power fantasy' part of your argument, however - out of all the games I own, only 3 games can be claimed to pander to that; Halo, Gears of War and Doom 3. From what I've seen of the current market, a lot of games out now are fairly ambiguous to whom their directed towards.

MomoElektra:

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

MomoElektra:

It's funny how you can recognize the problem and at the same time belittle it. A "little" degraded? Honestly?

The only porn that does not do that is amateur, lesbian and gay porn, the latter because there's hardly any women in it.

Amateur, lesbian, gay, BBW, anal (some women enjoy it you know), blonde, dancing, orgy, threesome, vintage... Just a few porn genres from the front page of Pornhub that are not necessarily degrading to women. Unless you consider a woman enjoying herself to be degrading because a man is somewhere in the picture, which would not surprise me in the slightest.

No, I call degrading her degrading. Like, you know, because that's what the word usually means. It's interesting that you mention "(some women enjoy it you know)", because I know that and it's not in dispute. Degradation can be exciting in role playing or what not.

But we were not discussing if women enjoyed it (the actors), not even if some women enjoyed watching that (because I'm sure some do, sometimes I like it myself) but if it was very often degrading. As in: Showing them being degraded.

It is basically standard nowadays. It wouldn't be that bad if there were more variety, if it were just one thing out of many (i.e. as in role playing, not for real like it is now), but there rarely is any. In mainstream porn at least.

Im not acknowledging a problem. There is no problem. Some people like degrading porn - so what? Whats the problem with that? You tell me.

There is too much of it. It's kind of like the only porn that exists noways (safe the ones I mentioned, which cater each to a very specific sub group, too). Too little variation.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

Ignore the hentai shit for a few seconds, because no one here watches that shit so its irrelevant.

Translation: Ignore that relevant part that works in your favor because ignoring it works in my favor and I want to be right on this.

Come back with that magical list of hard facts about how much percentage of porn fits in a certain genre, please. Until then we are just pulling stuff out of our asses.

I could say "90% of porn contains dogs" and it would have as much merit as your "The majority of porn is degrading".

LilithSlave:

axlryder:
This has to be one of the most hilariously straight faced things I've ever read. "Hmmm, that money shot looking particularly degrading, I'm pretty sure she said she didn't want it in her hair. Ah well, let's see what Anal Justice has in store, probably a wholesome morality tale about the betterment of both sexes".

I'm as sexual as anyone. I just think that people can get their rocks off without being degrading to women about it.

And how would I possibly be able to critique and make statements about the state of mainstream porn if I didn't look into it at all? Even hardcore anti-porn feminists have read quite a few copies of Hustler.

Well don't generalize all hardcore anti-porn feminists, but the point was that the way you wrote it made it fucking hilarious. Also, avoid generalizing what people can and can't "get their rocks off" to. Some people, I'm sure, are mostly aroused by subjugation and domination. S&M exists in part for this reason.

Shanicus:
and the majority of gamers are male.

There are quite a few females who play video games. As in, millions of them.

And there'd be a lot more interested and even invested in the hobby, if the industry wasn't so directed toward catering to men's fantasies. And instead, I dunno, have more games like Portal or Scary girl.

MomoElektra:
But we were not discussing if women enjoyed it (the actors), not even if some women enjoyed watching that (because I'm sure some do, sometimes I like it myself) but if it was very often degrading. As in: Showing them being degraded.

It is basically standard nowadays. It wouldn't be that bad if there were more variety, if it were just one thing out of many (i.e. as in role playing, not for real like it is now), but there rarely is any. In mainstream porn at least.

Exactly. The fact is, the ratio of degrading maledom to everything else is incredibly stark. Sure, this is always a variety of choices and fetishes and different things out there.

But what is the norm and what is being normalized, is maledom. Not only does the majority of porn focus on women in one body type and have an extreme male gaze camera, it portrays an image that women like being dominated.

Oh, and all the while, the mainstream name to call women inside the porn industry, are degrading terms like "slut". If most porn were so "sexually liberating" for women, the industry itself that should be pumping them up for what they're doing, they're insulting them as much as everyone. The entire portrayal of women in the majority of porn, in word, in camera, in act, is degrading.

SmashLovesTitanQuest:

I could say "90% of porn contains dogs" and it would have as much merit as your "The majority of porn is degrading".

It's also possible we have a different understanding of "degrading".

Whelp, I guess having a penis makes me evil. Brb comitting suicide to clear the path for our flawless goddesses-come-to-earth sisters.