That's ok. But it doesn't matter wether someone thinks coffeeshops should be closed or that all Jews should be deported. Now when someone says they're actually going to close down your coffeeshop or kill a Jew, that's when you when you can scold/stop them. Opinions themselves are harmless.
Opinions are a major part of what makes people who they are. Valuing things is an opinion. Valuing murder is an opinion. Valuing murder is wrong, and I will argue like crazy to convince that such an opinion is wrong. Opinion can sure as fuck be wrong and they can sure as fuck be bad.
(Sorry for trying to change your opinion here anyway;)) But an opinion in itself is harmless. It only becomes dangerous when something else is added, like action or some form of insanity. If you think being a nazi is good that's fine. Almost noone thinks that, and so it is regarded as wrong. Any person who is both a nazi and capable of reasonable thinking will quickly realize that doing anything with his opinion is stupid and will result in a lifelong prison sentence(or death depending on country). Also,per exampe, to think that an opinion is wrong is in itself an opinion, but simply to think that another's opinion is wrong is not the same as scolding someone for having that opinion.
I suppose that they aren't necessarily dangerous, but they are wrong. Murder is a terrible thing to value, and valuing something but not acting on it is terrible in it's own way.In my opinion believing something must reflect in your actions, or you don't really believe it.
bauke67: I've been reading through 2 pages of this now, and I've completely forgotten what the point was. So has everyone else, it seems. Yes, slut shaming is bad, and yes, virgin shaming is bad. I think pretty much anyone can agree on that, right? I suspect that virgin shaming is not generally caused by culture but comes purely from within the person, this may be different is some cases. I don't understand how a feminist can the oppinion of an anti-feminist to win argument against just some random person who disagrees. It makes no sense at all. Also, everyone should be free to have his own oppinion, and not be scolded for it by everyone that disagrees.
About just your last sentence...no, if your opinion is dumb then I can call it dumb. If you think that all independant coffe shops should be purged from the earth I'm going to scold you. Equally I could be all Godwin and say if you agree with the nazis you should be scolded. This seems like a strawman, but your point was so general that I think it's okay to pick out specifics.
Some opinions are just stupid, and I tend to think that a lot of the opinions surrounding the gender issues debate are pretty stupid, mostly from Men's Rights groups.
Wow, this was a long response to just your last sentence. Sorry about that...
That's ok. But it doesn't matter wether someone thinks coffeeshops should be closed or that all Jews should be deported. Now when someone says they're actually going to close down your coffeeshop or kill a Jew, that's when you when you can scold/stop them. Opinions themselves are harmless.
Well, okay, I think we just have a different defintion of scold. I agree opinions are harmless, to a point, but I will, for example, lose all respect for you, or not be friendly to you (you in general, not, er, you) if our opinions differ in certain ways.
I suppose that they aren't necessarily dangerous, but they are wrong. Murder is a terrible thing to value, and valuing something but not acting on it is terrible in it's own way.In my opinion believing something must reflect in your actions, or you don't really believe it.
Murder is firstly only terrible when out of context, but can be necessary if the conditions ask for it. And valuing something but not acting something but not acting on it is usually no more than common sense. Or do you think that if someone believes he should kill many people that he should do so? Someone may believe that it is a good thing, but also that self-preservance(or any other reason) is more important then that particular belief.
Well, okay, I think we just have a different defintion of scold. I agree opinions are harmless, to a point, but I will, for example, lose all respect for you, or not be friendly to you (you in general, not, er, you) if our opinions differ in certain ways.
I agree with you in that, you have every right to have an opinion about someone's opinion. But if you can scold someone for that(by which I mean tell them that what they think is wrong, and trying to convince them that what you think is right), then if you had the ability t do so, why would you not force their opinion to change. In example, let's say a goverment finds a way to brainwash people, is it then right for them to forcibly change their opinions about the government, or any number of things, because that is what they think is right?
I suppose that they aren't necessarily dangerous, but they are wrong. Murder is a terrible thing to value, and valuing something but not acting on it is terrible in it's own way.In my opinion believing something must reflect in your actions, or you don't really believe it.
Murder is firstly only terrible when out of context, but can be necessary if the conditions ask for it. And valuing something but not acting something but not acting on it is usually no more than common sense. Or do you think that if someone believes he should kill many people that he should do so? Someone may believe that it is a good thing, but also that self-preservance(or any other reason) is more important then that particular belief.
No, I believe that they shouldn't value murder. I think that opinion is invalid. I also think actions should reflect beliefs and beliefs should reflect actions. If they have a valid value they put before murder that's fine, but they shouldn't value murder in the first place.
No, I believe that they shouldn't value murder. I think that opinion is invalid. I also think actions should reflect beliefs and beliefs should reflect actions. If they have a valid value they put before murder that's fine, but they shouldn't value murder in the first place.
Of course, and so do I, but objectively speaking, it's just our opinion that murder, and the valuing of it, is wrong, and so we either have no right to tell them we think murder is wrong, or they have every right to commit those murders, simply because they think they are right.
bauke67: I've been reading through 2 pages of this now, and I've completely forgotten what the point was. So has everyone else, it seems. Yes, slut shaming is bad, and yes, virgin shaming is bad. I think pretty much anyone can agree on that, right? I suspect that virgin shaming is not generally caused by culture but comes purely from within the person, this may be different is some cases. I don't understand how a feminist can the oppinion of an anti-feminist to win argument against just some random person who disagrees. It makes no sense at all. Also, everyone should be free to have his own oppinion, and not be scolded for it by everyone that disagrees.
About just your last sentence...no, if your opinion is dumb then I can call it dumb. If you think that all independant coffe shops should be purged from the earth I'm going to scold you. Equally I could be all Godwin and say if you agree with the nazis you should be scolded. This seems like a strawman, but your point was so general that I think it's okay to pick out specifics.
Some opinions are just stupid, and I tend to think that a lot of the opinions surrounding the gender issues debate are pretty stupid, mostly from Men's Rights groups.
Wow, this was a long response to just your last sentence. Sorry about that...
That's ok. But it doesn't matter wether someone thinks coffeeshops should be closed or that all Jews should be deported. Now when someone says they're actually going to close down your coffeeshop or kill a Jew, that's when you when you can scold/stop them. Opinions themselves are harmless.
I'd rather scold them for being bad people before they get the idea to try anything. I can judge them negatively for their opinion.
I'd rather scold them for being bad people before they get the idea to try anything. I can judge them negatively for their opinion.
They could say the same of everything you believe, how can you be sure either of you right at all? Who are you to judge?
Alright, and I'll see no reason to believe them. Sorry, but "They could say" is not a very frightening thing. I could say the Earth is flat too.
As for how can I be sure, why should I care? And why shouldn't I judge them? If you're going to try and question all values then you must necessarily question the idea that I shouldn't go around judging people at my whim.
isometry: Remembering "sex sells", media and entertainment have no reason to talk about the large portion of the male population that gives up on sex in favor of the perpetual bachelor's lifestyle: dirty apartment, bad hygiene, video game marathons, etc.
In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential.
Courtship brings out good qualities in people. Obviously for men who have to turn on the charm to try and get laid, but also for women whose traditional job is to delay the lay without causing the gentleman to lose interest, which requires that she turn on the charm as well. The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.
Matthew94: It's no better than the "men are the source of the worlds problems" argument.
Men != Patriarchy. This is the problem with typical antifeminism and other people getting defensive about privilege. Always asserting that when someone says something like "patriarchy" or "male supremacist thought" or "male privilege" or in terms of race, "white privilege", they're saying that white heterosexual men are evil and need to go away.
That's a farcical strawman. I'm tired of anti-feminists using these farcical, extreme comparisons to things. Society is littered with male supremacist thought. It's called male privilege. In fact most language lends itself to the idea that men are better than women.
It doesn't mean that men are bad or even to blame. It means that male privilege exist as a descriptor of society.
Ive never understood the patriarchy. Ill admit that women have more inequalities than men. However in my mind it cant possible be a patriarchy seeing as we have quite a few things that are NOT in our favor.
If society is a patriachy why do men get ff'ed in the a when it comes to custody and child support? Why do men never get to see their kids? Why do charity earnings for breast cancer make charity earnings for prostate cancer look like a pittance. Or that male circumcision is a given in many countries and female is prohibited almost everywhere. Or that domestic violence against men is almost as high as domestic violence against women? Women get 40% less jail time on average for identical crimes statistically.
Im not saying this to play the victim. Im saying that if society is REALLY owned by men. Like a patriarchy. Why would it inlude elements that screwed over the ruling gender? Who IS the head of this patriachy that has all these negative elements for us.
Its pretty much entirely society and culture based and its not something you can generalise. My friends are not jesus freaks. My friends are not uptight or socially recluse. However my friends look down equally on those who treat sex like a conquest regardless of gender, we do it more to guys in our group that girls. Its a weird thing ive never experienced.
Okay, let's get the feminism debate out the way. While the OP reeks of "Oh, alright, I'll throw you cavemen a bone", this is not the worst hardcore feminist we've seen by far, and I have no idea why it's come to occupy most of the thread.
Furthermore, feminism is a ridiculous idea as is masculinism. Mascuilinty. Whatever the male equivelant is called. Basically, either view is a way of saying that one gender is better than the other or deserves better treatment than the other, which is, putting it bluntly, NOT OKAY. It's not okay morally, it's not okay lawfully, it's not okay by basic human rights. I find it hilarious how both sides go on about equality whilst preaching ideas that are directly contradictory to equality.
Anyway, on with the topic at hand. To be honest, people don't tend to insult me for being a virgin. Not anymore at least. Virgin shaming seems to be mainly for adolescents and the immature. Still, however, due to society constantly suggesting that absolutely everyone is having sex and that if you aren't, you're a terrible person, I can't help but feel at least a little ashamed without anyone shaming me.
Our society's current views of sex and sexual issues are plain wrong or even at times, out right crazy. The problem is far further reaching than some gender specific thing.
Linking to a guy who tells rape victims to drown in semen while trying to make a reasoned argument against feminism's ideals is not a good move. (Its pretty late but if I don't reply, just google it. That shit happened).
Just saying.
(Also feminism believes patriarchy hurts men too. It doesnt mean all men are always better off than all women. Thats a common misconception).
EDIT: I keep telling myself I won't get involved with these arguments. I dont want to get involved. It's destroying my faith in our good community as gamers.
Linking to a guy who tells rape victims to drown in semen while trying to make a reasoned argument against feminism's ideals is not a good move. (Its pretty late but if I don't reply, just google it. That shit happened).
Just saying.
(Also feminism believes patriarchy hurts men too. It doesnt mean all men are always better off than all women. Thats a common misconception).
Then why is it called a patriachy if it hurts men... how does this make sense? If the system hurts everyone how can we called it "ruled" by everyone as the word patriarchy implies. Who is upholding this system?!
And regardless of what else he has said (please show me where he says this, long story short i dont believe you) i agree with everything he said in this video. Be for the rights of all. Always. No descrimination is ok ever under any circumstances and ALL gender roles are wrong. Feminism is a very us vs them name that makes it sound very "girls only". But if the patriarchy is hurting me and we are on the same side why would you do this? I agree with you but feminism doesnt include me in its description. Id rather be under a banner that didnt include a specific group of people in its name that isnt me.
Hey i didnt do anything to show i was a bad gamer did i :C how did i make you lose faith in things, i support equality for everything...
Then why is it called a patriachy if it hurts men... how does this make sense? If the system hurts everyone how can we called it "ruled" by everyone as the word patriarchy implies. And regardless of what else he has said (please show me where he says this, long story short i dont believe you) i agree with everything he said in this video. Be for the rights of all. Always. No descrimination is ok ever under any circumstances and ALL gender roles are wrong.
Then why is it called a patriachy if it hurts men... how does this make sense? If the system hurts everyone how can we called it "ruled" by everyone as the word patriarchy implies. And regardless of what else he has said (please show me where he says this, long story short i dont believe you) i agree with everything he said in this video. Be for the rights of all. Always. No descrimination is ok ever under any circumstances and ALL gender roles are wrong.
Sorry i found it hard to believe a person who is usually rational and well thought out would say something so horrific... without evidence i found it hard to credit, im sure you would to had i assigned the quote to someone you like.
Wow... just wow... did this really happen? Was this really him? Seriously?! Im... i dont... wow... erm... wow... sorry i didnt believe you. Are you sure this was the same dude? This is fucking appauling. It doesnt invalidate the things he said in that video about being for the rights of everyone rather than the rights of one side. This has changed my view on a few things. Thank you for showing me this.
Would you like to address my point about the name of "feminism" alienating the men who are negatively affected by it and thus reducing the amount of people likely to fight for your side? It seems very counter intuitive and ive never understood it. I wouldnt call myself a feminist anymore than id call myself a hamster-rights-activist. Id call myself an ANIMAL rights activist since hamsters are inclusive in that label in the same way id call myself a HUMAN rights activist since feminist implies only women. Its implicit. Even if it isnt the aim. I think feminists would garner more male support if the name was changed to sound less aggressive and anti male.
Then why is it called a patriachy if it hurts men... how does this make sense? If the system hurts everyone how can we called it "ruled" by everyone as the word patriarchy implies. And regardless of what else he has said (please show me where he says this, long story short i dont believe you) i agree with everything he said in this video. Be for the rights of all. Always. No descrimination is ok ever under any circumstances and ALL gender roles are wrong.
You are just using an ad hominem attack against TAA. Why not counter his points instead of bringing up the comments he made.
I literally cannot force myself to watch that video. I'm aware I don't want to listen to him because of the kind of comments that he made and the kind of person he is, and you can say that makes me a bad person. I was not saying anything about the points he makes, simply that he may not be the best representation to have in this kind of argument.
BiscuitTrouser: Would you like to address my point about the name of "feminism" alienating the men who are negatively affected by it and thus reducing the amount of people likely to fight for your side? It seems very counter intuitive.
I'll try. I can't speak for all women/feminists. But why does `fem` mean you can't associate with it? I get called dude all the time. I play games in a male dominated environment that are specifically designed for men.
I've known many male feminists who were comfortable with the term. If you don't wanna call yourself that `equal rights activist` will do if you don't wanna associate with it. Doesn't matter what you call yourself, just matters what you do.
Linking to a guy who tells rape victims to drown in semen while trying to make a reasoned argument against feminism's ideals is not a good move. (Its pretty late but if I don't reply, just google it. That shit happened).
Just saying.
(Also feminism believes patriarchy hurts men too. It doesnt mean all men are always better off than all women. Thats a common misconception).
Burden of proof is on you.
And did he say it with mocking sarcasm? He does that shit a lot. Not necessarily smart, but I've only disagreed with him on like 3 things. He also smashed a Mass Effect 3 disk.
There will never be a point in which society doesn't have absurd double standards. There will always be people who feel inferior yet have social sway, they will demonize the traits/behaviors they are jealous of/try to scare/shame people into catering to their insecurities (like a guy worried he won't live up to a girl's previous partners so only dating "chaste" women).
On one hand though, "virgin shaming," makes sense in a primitive sort of way. Having sex is generally considered a product of being good looking, charismatic, rich, generally successful in one or more areas of your life and having that be directly confirmed by another person by them having sex with you. It seems a natural jump to use sexual prowess as a form of status as it is confirmation of some other status. Which would mean, lack of that would be a lack of status and so will be ostracized by people uncomfortable with their own perceived station.
I guess then to follow, if everyone wants to have sex for status the game of being better than others gets harder, so why not convince women of the opposite so as to increase competition to preserve your status better?
This isn't a good thing, but it will happen, because many people are insecure and yet hold influence. Personally, so long as some one doesn't carry a disease, I think the more experience the better. If you need a heart transplant, do you want a person who has never held a scalpel or a surgeon who has done a hundred+ procedures?
i do not agree with your mindset, you being a feminist (i am not a woman hater, i just dont believe in the majority feminist populations methods), but i do understand where your coming from. this "jersey shore" clubbing generation (and me being in high school in this generation) has caused virginity to become a rare diamond. men and women are having too much non-procreating sex (IMO). most peoples first times now-a-days are drunken moments, in the back of the club. it has brought it to be at a point where a guy knows those trenches have been stormed, or that his pole has been polished. no one cares anymore.
I'll try. I can't speak for all women/feminists. But why does `fem` mean you can't associate with it? I get called dude all the time. I play games in a male dominated environment that are specifically designed for men.
I've known many male feminists who were comfortable with the term. If you don't wanna call yourself that `equal rights activist` will do if you don't wanna associate with it. Doesn't matter what you call yourself, just matters what you do.
Its not that i cant associate with it. Its that it implies that it only fights for one group. And when i use a label to describe myself that isnt the impression i want to give since that isnt what i do. I demand equality for both sexes in every circumstance and i feel by using a gender specific term at the front it adds "favor" toward one side or the other, something i dont feel. I agree with the last part though.
For example if i was fighting for racial equality in an area where races were all descriminated against in some form or another calling it "whitenism" would NOT give a good impression of the groups goals or aims.
The women in my family are, for the most part, dominant (with the exception of my grandfather) Most of my authority figures throughout childhood had been women All my bosses have been women Most of the women in my relationships have been sexually aggressive (not that I'm complaining, I actually find that attractive)
I hope you'll excuse me for not feeling like I'm living in a patriarchal society.
obviously my experiences aren't universal, I'm just pointing out that men aren't always the dominant ones : \
And yea as far as gender roles go, I'm quite unmasculine.
Hey i didnt do anything to show i was a bad gamer did i :C how did i make you lose faith in things, i support equality for everything...
I just get tired of trying to prove how reasonable feminism can be to a bunch of guys who seem quite angry about it. Obviously if you want to simply say equal rights enthusiast then thats fine.
We already have enough issues with sexism in our community, so constantly having to defend my position on equal rights feels like ... fighting a losing battle I guess. Our community can have trouble accepting those of us without a penis at the best of times, and these conversations/arguments just make me feel unwelcome. Not that I'm moaning or saying I need to be made welcome by every dude on the planet, I just get tired.
I think I have an interesting anecdote to share with everyone. When I was but a young highschooler I had never had sex. I wasn't a particularly popular guy, I wasn't bullied, I was rarely the centre of attention. One day most of our class was having a group chat and I was silently listening in a corner. Suddenly, and I can't remember the context, someone asked me out of the blue if I was a virgin, a hint of sarcasm in their voice. I answered nonchalantly that I hadn't, I hadn't given the question any prior thought and so I said it sharply, without hesitation. The room fell silent. A few people turned their heads away, somebody whispered something, I didn't understand what all the fuss was about at the time. Finally, the very same guy that asked the question extended a hearty pat on the back and told me I had quite the pair of balls (or something vaguely along those lines) that he had never met anybody who had the guts to admit they were a virgin. Since then I gained this weird reputation. My name carried connotations of fear and respect throughout the whole building and I was cool. A lot of people walked up to me and thought I had a fascinating personality and a refreshing outlook on life.
To be honest, this is sort of silly in retrospect but I really felt good knowing that my aloofness was both envied and admired. So let this be a lesson to all you little boys and girls. It doesn't really matter what you have done or what you haven't, what matters is that you accept yourself as you are and act like it.
P.S. Thanks to LilithSlave I think I can now understand a little better the negative nature of slut shaming. It really is totally stupid that people make judgements on something so personal and utterly meaningless as what you have done (or hadn't in my case) with others in your most intimate times.
Hey i didnt do anything to show i was a bad gamer did i :C how did i make you lose faith in things, i support equality for everything...
I just get tired of trying to prove how reasonable feminism can be to a bunch of guys who seem quite angry about it. Obviously if you want to simply say equal rights enthusiast then thats fine.
We already have enough issues with sexism in our community, so constantly having to defend my position on equal rights feels like ... fighting a losing battle I guess. Our community can have trouble accepting those of us without a penis at the best of times, and these conversations/arguments just make me feel unwelcome. Not that I'm moaning or saying I need to be made welcome by every dude on the planet, I just get tired.
Im sorry you feel that way. If its any consolation i and my girlfriend believe firmly that acceptance for women amongst gamers will increase when women are better represented in the gaming industry and in games themselves as major characters. Maybe it shouldnt need to be this way but if it makes a positive difference its something. Thats why i encouraged her to turn her coding expertise toward game design and now she has a university place for it. Its gonna get better. Dont feel unwelcome. Its a cool hobby and loads of people are trying hard to get your gender represented and into it. I dont wanna patronise you by trying to coach you but youre right. It sucks sometimes. So i hope knowing you have a lot of reasonable people behind you both male and female to make you feel welcome does something for you.
I think its utter crap that 50% of our population should feel "alien" in a hobby we are desperately trying to prove as a medium and an art form. All these self same people toating gaming as a serious hobby best get ready to have everyone involved. Its easy to be a douche and be a sexist when you know the majority of people will be on your side, or failing that not willing to argue with you. If 50% of all online lobbies were female all the time the chances of sexism by gamers that we see today would be a lot lower.
Matthew94: It's no better than the "men are the source of the worlds problems" argument.
Men != Patriarchy. This is the problem with typical antifeminism and other people getting defensive about privilege. Always asserting that when someone says something like "patriarchy" or "male supremacist thought" or "male privilege" or in terms of race, "white privilege", they're saying that white heterosexual men are evil and need to go away.
That's a farcical strawman. I'm tired of anti-feminists using these farcical, extreme comparisons to things. Society is littered with male supremacist thought. It's called male privilege. In fact most language lends itself to the idea that men are better than women.
It doesn't mean that men are bad or even to blame. It means that male privilege exist as a descriptor of society.
Ive never understood the patriarchy. Ill admit that women have more inequalities than men. However in my mind it cant possible be a patriarchy seeing as we have quite a few things that are NOT in our favor.
If society is a patriachy why do men get ff'ed in the a when it comes to custody and child support? Why do men never get to see their kids? Why do charity earnings for breast cancer make charity earnings for prostate cancer look like a pittance. Or that male circumcision is a given in many countries and female is prohibited almost everywhere. Or that domestic violence against men is almost as high as domestic violence against women? Women get 40% less jail time on average for identical crimes statistically.
Im not saying this to play the victim. Im saying that if society is REALLY owned by men. Like a patriarchy. Why would it inlude elements that screwed over the ruling gender? Who IS the head of this patriachy that has all these negative elements for us.
Its pretty much entirely society and culture based and its not something you can generalise. My friends are not jesus freaks. My friends are not uptight or socially recluse. However my friends look down equally on those who treat sex like a conquest regardless of gender, we do it more to guys in our group that girls. Its a weird thing ive never experienced.
Protip: If you ever want to be taken seriously don't embed AmazingAtheist videos because we've all worked out by now he is crazy, sexist scum who treats women like shit and thinks rape is hilarious.
And in answer to all your questions A) because certain benefits require certain sacrifices and B) because we have actually come a long way from "women are child-making house appliances" but that doesn't mean we should stop expecting more equality and better citizens.
Hey i didnt do anything to show i was a bad gamer did i :C how did i make you lose faith in things, i support equality for everything...
I just get tired of trying to prove how reasonable feminism can be to a bunch of guys who seem quite angry about it. Obviously if you want to simply say equal rights enthusiast then thats fine.
We already have enough issues with sexism in our community, so constantly having to defend my position on equal rights feels like ... fighting a losing battle I guess. Our community can have trouble accepting those of us without a penis at the best of times, and these conversations/arguments just make me feel unwelcome. Not that I'm moaning or saying I need to be made welcome by every dude on the planet, I just get tired.
Most of the replies on this thread seem more like knee-jerking than anything; surely you can see how words like "patriarchy" and "feminist/anti-feminist" used in some contexts can come off as hostile.
Personally, I agree with most of the OP; I just resent the condescending tone and wild generalizations that myself and most of the male contributors to this thread have picked up on. Honestly, I don't think feminism ever had to be brought up in this thread : \
Men != Patriarchy. This is the problem with typical antifeminism and other people getting defensive about privilege. Always asserting that when someone says something like "patriarchy" or "male supremacist thought" or "male privilege" or in terms of race, "white privilege", they're saying that white heterosexual men are evil and need to go away.
That's a farcical strawman. I'm tired of anti-feminists using these farcical, extreme comparisons to things. Society is littered with male supremacist thought. It's called male privilege. In fact most language lends itself to the idea that men are better than women.
It doesn't mean that men are bad or even to blame. It means that male privilege exist as a descriptor of society.
Ive never understood the patriarchy. Ill admit that women have more inequalities than men. However in my mind it cant possible be a patriarchy seeing as we have quite a few things that are NOT in our favor.
If society is a patriachy why do men get ff'ed in the a when it comes to custody and child support? Why do men never get to see their kids? Why do charity earnings for breast cancer make charity earnings for prostate cancer look like a pittance. Or that male circumcision is a given in many countries and female is prohibited almost everywhere. Or that domestic violence against men is almost as high as domestic violence against women? Women get 40% less jail time on average for identical crimes statistically.
Im not saying this to play the victim. Im saying that if society is REALLY owned by men. Like a patriarchy. Why would it inlude elements that screwed over the ruling gender? Who IS the head of this patriachy that has all these negative elements for us.
Its pretty much entirely society and culture based and its not something you can generalise. My friends are not jesus freaks. My friends are not uptight or socially recluse. However my friends look down equally on those who treat sex like a conquest regardless of gender, we do it more to guys in our group that girls. Its a weird thing ive never experienced.
Protip: If you ever want to be taken seriously don't embed AmazingAtheist videos because we've all worked out by now he is crazy, sexist scum who treats women like shit and thinks rape is hilarious.
And in answer to all your questions A) because certain benefits require certain sacrifices and B) because we have actually come a long way from "women are child-making house appliances" but that doesn't mean we should stop expecting more equality and better citizens.
Like I said to phasmal, using ad hominem attacks doesn't refute his points. Just because you don't like him it doesn't make him wrong.
Im sorry you feel that way. If its any consolation i and my girlfriend believe firmly that acceptance for women amongst gamers will increase when women are better represented in the gaming industry and in games themselves as major characters. Maybe it shouldnt need to be this way but if it makes a positive difference its something. Thats why i encouraged her to turn her coding expertise toward game design and now she has a university place for it. Its gonna get better. Dont feel unwelcome. Its a cool hobby and loads of people are trying hard to get your gender represented and into it. I dont wanna patronise you by trying to coach you but youre right. It sucks sometimes. So i hope knowing you have a lot of reasonable people behind you both male and female to make you feel welcome does something for you.
I think its utter crap that 50% of our population should feel "alien" in a hobby we are desperately trying to prove as a medium and an art form. All these self same people toating gaming as a serious hobby best get ready to have everyone involved. Its easy to be a douche and be a sexist when you know the majority of people will be on your side, or failing that not willing to argue with you. If 50% of all online lobbies were female all the time the chances of sexism by gamers that we see today would be a lot lower.
No, it's not patronising, its good to know. I thought you would understand, you seem like a reasonable dude. I'm glad something good could come out of this thread.
It's nice to be reminded there are dudes on the side of equality in games as well. It's easy to forget under the weight of some of the rubbish that is out there. And its hard not to be annoyed when I see guys on this forum say that they hate women, but still, nothing could keep me from gaming. =)
This happens sometimes, I will get grumpy and think its a losing battle and then someone will remind me that this community can be awesome as well. So thanks for being that person! :)
Most of the replies on this thread seem more like knee-jerking than anything; surely you can see how words like "patriarchy" and "feminist/anti-feminist" used in some contexts can come off as hostile.
Personally, I agree with most of the OP; I just resent the condescending tone and wild generalizations that myself and most of the male contributors to this thread have picked up on. Honestly, I don't think feminism ever had to be brought up in this thread : \
Yeah, I can see how a lot of it would be knee-jerk reaction. I wish it hadn't come up either. But it always dooooes. (And generalisations about ladies and saying you hate them is generally acceptable on this forum but meh double standards).
Like I said to phasmal, using ad hominem attacks doesn't refute his points. Just because you don't like him it doesn't make him wrong.
I wasn't using personal attacks to refute his points, I was simply saying he perhaps wasn't good representation. Also I think knowing what I know about him I would find it hard to remain objective. But thats just me. I'm human. So thats why I won't get into it, hope you understand.
Protip: If you ever want to be taken seriously don't embed AmazingAtheist videos because we've all worked out by now he is crazy, sexist scum who treats women like shit and thinks rape is hilarious.
And in answer to all your questions A) because certain benefits require certain sacrifices and B) because we have actually come a long way from "women are child-making house appliances" but that doesn't mean we should stop expecting more equality and better citizens.
I was only just made aware of the batshit crazy shit that was said. Part of me doesnt want to believe he said that stuff... however it doesnt make him wrong in this video though. And that would make perfect sense IF the sacrifices had ANYTHING to do with the benefits. I mean we get paid more but why does that have anything to do with more jail time? That explanation makes no sense? What to elaborate? Im not sure what B) is in answer to. Im not saying we should STOP fighting for women anywhere? I just wanna start fighting for everyone. Let there be no disadvantages for everyone. Let sexism against men be taken as seriously as sexism against women while sexism against women is STILL taken seriously. You dont lose ground by taking up both sides and fighting strongly for the rights of all under a new name.
The name always weirded me out since if it claims to want gender "equality" why does it use a gender specific word?
Its like if i made an "equality for all races" group for ALL races who happened to be descrimnated against in an area and called it the "blackenist" movement when it was for people of all races. It makes it seem very exclusive. Im hardly "offended" by it, nono, instead i think it might detract from the total number of supporters it has and quite honestly deserves.
I suppose that they aren't necessarily dangerous, but they are wrong. Murder is a terrible thing to value, and valuing something but not acting on it is terrible in it's own way.In my opinion believing something must reflect in your actions, or you don't really believe it.