Pacifists, I have a question.

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Same size?

I think I suck at fighting, but I think my pain threshold would help me kick the shit out of the attacker.

ToTaL LoLiGe:
There could be a backlash to reacting, your attacker could get his boys to beat you down because you beat the shit out of him. This could result in you ending up dead.

And somehow being assaulted by a crazed person who just started beating the shit out of someone

ReservoirAngel:
I did, however, continue to mouth off to him though.

/facepalm

I'm sorry, I think your mistook "pacifist" for "rubbish strategist". That's not turning the other cheek, that's pulling the pants down and showing both cheeks.

1. You're human. I.E. an animal. An animal will do everything to maintain his physical integrity. Not making use of self-defense is unnatural.
2. What matters is the intention behind the action. By your logic every death caused by negligence is murder or at least "manslaughter".

You wouldn't do yourself a favor by fighting back when all that gets hurt if you run is your pride/possibly social stance.

requisitename:
Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider shooting someone who isn't armed "reasonable means". That law could definitely be worded better, I think.

The line of thinking behind shooting an unarmed person is that often times you have no way of knowing if a person is armed or not. If I'm attacked on the street or have an intruder in my home I have no way of knowing if the person attacking me or breaking into my house is going to draw a knife or gun. If I wait to find out before shooting him it could very well be too late. So with that in mind it's best to treat any intruder or attacker as one that could in fact be armed lest it may be too late if you wait to find out and be certain.

I had a fight couple years ago.
I was sitting with some friends, and he and two others wondered over, (They were friends with my friends, but not with me), and told me to leave.
I said I wasn't doing anything, and the only reason they came over was to shoo me away from their friends. (Which was true, I asked one later).
One of them slapped me.
I asked him to stop.

He did it again.

I told him to stop. And leave me alone.

He did it again.

I rugby tackled him, kneed him in the balls, and put him on the ground before the others could do anything.

Got put in icolation for a day.

Don't think I was particually unjustifyied. But if I really need to fight, I will. And Can.

But I try not to... I did warn him twice. More than reasonable.

There are definitly better ways to take control of a situation than just beating your attacker into submission.It may seem like a good idea at the time but from my experience I usually end up with some regrets about it.Talking sometimes helps but its kind of unreliable because words dont have as big an effect as you would hope unless you use them very carefully.There have been some good posts on different types of grabs but these require a fair amount of practice to be used effectivly though they are by far the best way to deal with an attacker.As well as those I dont believe there is any shame in fighting dirty some people treat a fight like there is some set of rules you have to follow ive never read them.

Xanthious:

The line of thinking behind shooting an unarmed person is that often times you have no way of knowing if a person is armed or not. If I'm attacked on the street or have an intruder in my home I have no way of knowing if the person attacking me or breaking into my house is going to draw a knife or gun. If I wait to find out before shooting him it could very well be too late. So with that in mind it's best to treat any intruder or attacker as one that could in fact be armed lest it may be too late if you wait to find out and be certain.

To be honest, I've nothing against Castle Doctrine. I figure if someone I don't know is in my house, there's a good chance that there's not a good, non-criminal reason for it. So, yeah.. I'm actually pretty okay with shooting intruders.

My problem is more in the Stand Your Ground aspect (especially coupled with concealed carry). Things aren't clear cut. If something goes down in an area without witnesses, the only word you have is the word of the person who didn't get shot and killed. S/he is not exactly a reliable source for what really happened when you consider the fact that if it wasn't justified, they could be facing the death penalty in a lot of states. It just seems there are too many ways it could be abused, in my opinion. It brings up the matter of "At what point does a threat warrant deadly force (and what, exactly, constitutes a threat, anyway?)?"

So, while I see what you're saying - and I always operate on the assumption that anyone attacking me may be armed, too, I just don't carry a gun to shoot them with - I'm still not comfortable with people being allowed to carry concealed guns and shoot anyone they deem to be threatening them.

miketehmage:
If a single person, of the same height and build as you, were to hit you, and continue to hit you repeatedly, would you hit them back?

Here's the thing. You assume that I have to hit him/her for it to end. What stops me from blocking as many punches as I can and then try to incapacitate him with a grappling move or similar technique? It does not have to hurt, and it makes the person unable to cause more violence until the police has arrived.

And If I had no chance of blocking the punches, then I would probably have no chance at landing a hit either. Not that I would try.

rhizhim:

DoPo:

miketehmage:
If a single person, of the same height and build as you, were to hit you, and continue to hit you repeatedly

I'd might be scared. I'm a fairly big guy so if another one like started punching me, it could be really scary. Then again, I have a higher pain tolerance for punching, so chances are that it would just be annoying.

miketehmage:
If someone is hitting you, why wouldn't you hit back? What gives them the right to hit you? And why shouldn't you defend yourselves?

Why do I have to hit them back though? What if I don't hit them back and still defend myself? You're imposing a false dilemma here - I can defend myself without punching people. Well I can defend myself from punches, at least. Block and if need be, try to restrain them. If the other party continues, maybe throw in some hits of my own. But defence =/= hitting stuff. Trust me.

Oh, and I wouldn't start hitting, because I'm a fairly big guy. Not that I'm a pacifist but I could really hurt somebody if provoked. That's how I grew up, so that's how I tend to do stuff now.

this.

get the fucker person into a lock
image
and hold him there until he calms down.
-----------------------------------

since you got in a 'fight' with no chance to talk your way out of it,
he either is drunk or in rage. both states where you can easily overwhelm him since they are likely to do errors.

being a parcifist does not mean you have to be someones bitch.
it mean more that violence is the last of your options and if used, it should incapacitate your opponent just enough to give you a head start.

You realise that lock is completely ineffective right? Like you'd only be able to employ it on a guy who had never HEARD of the concept of fighting before?

It might be a joke poster but I'm just checking.

Raven's Nest:
I'm not an aggressive person at all and for the principles I can respect pacifism. But from an evolutionary/survival point of view, being attacked and not doing something about it is retarded unwise.

That's alright, I think we're all in agreement that that would be fairly retarded...

OT: Well, I'm somewhat sociopathic, so at that point I'd stop giving a shit about his personal safety and lamp him...

firstly, a headbutt to the nose, then i kick is balls, then i take a boxing stance and aim for the jaw.

obviously im not a pacifist, but i sure respect then for their restraint, thats hard (if not foolish, in my own opinion)hard stance to take.

Binnsyboy:

Raven's Nest:
I'm not an aggressive person at all and for the principles I can respect pacifism. But from an evolutionary/survival point of view, being attacked and not doing something about it is retarded unwise.

That's alright, I think we're all in agreement that that would be fairly retarded...

OT: Well, I'm somewhat sociopathic, so at that point I'd stop giving a shit about his personal safety and lamp him...

I felt bad when the idea of a person with downs syndrome being attacked and not fighting back popped into my head...

Actually now I think about it, I wouldn't get into a fight with a downs kid... They have a mental (sorry) amount of strength. Once saw a 13 year old kid with downs beat the crap out of the headmaster (who was huge himself), because he interrupted him having sex with his girlfriend (who also had downs) in the middle of the playground... True story.

I think the question is flawed.

When under attack, the average person, regardless of their normal beliefs, becomes subject to the fight-or-flight rush. On an intellectual level you may be a pacifist - your body might not know then when it's full of adrenaline and determined to survive - your body might decide the best way to do that is to swing like crazy and hope the threat goes away.

Conversely, you may be convinced that you'd snap the neck of anybody who so much as laid a finger on you - your body might decide that it wants to get as far away from the threat as possible.

I'm not saying this is true of everyone on this forum. I'm saying it's impossible to say who its true for and who it isn't... After all, I could tell you all that I'm trained in 8 different martial arts and am a champion boxer and MMA fighter, that 19 people have tried to mug me in my life and all of them are now dead.

I'd be lying...

...

Just a thought.

Fasckira:

miketehmage:
If a single person, of the same height and build as you, were to hit you, and continue to hit you repeatedly, would you hit them back?

Too many potential variables - why are they hitting me? Did I do them wrong? Have they briefly lost their mind? Are they angry at something else and just happen to lash out in uncontrolled fury at the nearest person?

If they just started attacking me for no reason then I'd probably hit them back as they'd presumably be needing punched back to end it quickly.

Agreed. Too many variables. If they were striking me just for the sake of punching me,I'd tell the teacher they were hitting me,show him where,and since the place I go to has cameras,well....there you go. I do not want to hurt someone unless I absolutely must.

Raven's Nest:

Binnsyboy:

Raven's Nest:
I'm not an aggressive person at all and for the principles I can respect pacifism. But from an evolutionary/survival point of view, being attacked and not doing something about it is retarded unwise.

That's alright, I think we're all in agreement that that would be fairly retarded...

OT: Well, I'm somewhat sociopathic, so at that point I'd stop giving a shit about his personal safety and lamp him...

I felt bad when the idea of a person with downs syndrome being attacked and not fighting back popped into my head...

Actually now I think about it, I wouldn't get into a fight with a downs kid... They have a mental (sorry) amount of strength. Once saw a 13 year old kid with downs beat the crap out of the headmaster (who was huge himself), because he interrupted him having sex with his girlfriend (who also had downs) in the middle of the playground... True story.

Erm...

Shit, man! xD

There's quite a few people with down's syndrome at my college. My friend is weirdly unnerved by them. It's not something I know a great deal about, though.

Binnsyboy:

Erm...

Shit, man! xD

There's quite a few people with down's syndrome at my college. My friend is weirdly unnerved by them. It's not something I know a great deal about, though.

Well people with downs syndrome become sexually mature much faster than us erm, normal folk. I'm pretty sure the girl used to pleasure herself on the school bus on more than one occasion too.

Actually the funniest memory I have is a work colleague coming into work one day (he's a huuge guy, like 75" waist huge), he said he was walking down the street followed by a group of downs kids taking the piss out of him for being fat... When he said "and I hesitate to call them, a bunch of retards!" It cracked me up. Possibly the funniest thing I have ever heard.

I would hit back I,m a pacifist but have no problems with defending myself.

As long as I get the last word in I feel that I win in the end. I have a pretty high pain tolerance so if its just a one on one fight i'd just defend myself without attacking back until cops or somebody else decides to fight him. The whole time i'm being smacked around i'd just be talking crap and making fun of them. Try it sometime, it just makes them even angrier, pretty funny actually.

If you're about to get jumped by multiple guys though my best advice is to just run and call for help.

Ok so I'm waking home from school when 3 guys try to pull me into an alleyway in which I can only assume they wanted to mug me. I never found out mostly because the minute the guy grabbed me by my shirt and pulled me into the alleyway yelling "give me your" that's when they stopped being a person I should feel any sort of respect or sympathy for. I don't normally fight people in fact I've only ever fought with my brothers when I was younger and my only knowledge of fighting comes from what my brothers taught me about self defence. I much prefer to solve problems with words but you can't do this with a social degenerate scumbag like these 3 nitwits. So I punched the guy in the neck and then kneed him in the chest before pushing him to the floor I then cracked my knuckles and looked at the other to they were younger by 2 or 3 years than the one I just beat up and so they ran. If all 3 of them where my age or older then it might have turned out differently but when the one that was my age was taken out the other two who I had 2 or 3 years on just ran. I'm not one for violence but when it comes to fools like these I find no other effective way of teaching them to respect others. That was 3 years ago I had also heard quite recently that these 3 morons had been mugging kids outside of my secondary school this the same place they tried to mug me it ended when they were attacked by a mob of 50 kids from the school so maybe some people never learn. I have other stories but they don't involve me personally and are only what I heard from other people who where there if anyone is interested I can post them at a later date but for now i have a league of legends game to play.

This really depends upon whether the guy is showing any technique. As some others have said, there are a lot of simple grabs and throws to put an untrained assailant on the ground without hurting him much. I have the advantage of such training and would use it if my assailant didn't really know what he was doing.

Not that I'm really a pacifist, per se... I just don't think that violence short of killing generally has much of a point to it. The only thing "beating a guy up" ever solved was short-term redirection of his intentions. Any other effect needs to be applied through more social means, usually language of some kind... and it can generally be applied without beating anyone up.

'Course, if you're talking someone who obviously has some martial skill, I'd back off, draw my pistol with one hand, and call the cops with the other. This is a civilized society we live in, ya can't just go around attacking people randomly.

SextusMaximus:

rhizhim:

DoPo:

I'd might be scared. I'm a fairly big guy so if another one like started punching me, it could be really scary. Then again, I have a higher pain tolerance for punching, so chances are that it would just be annoying.

Why do I have to hit them back though? What if I don't hit them back and still defend myself? You're imposing a false dilemma here - I can defend myself without punching people. Well I can defend myself from punches, at least. Block and if need be, try to restrain them. If the other party continues, maybe throw in some hits of my own. But defence =/= hitting stuff. Trust me.

Oh, and I wouldn't start hitting, because I'm a fairly big guy. Not that I'm a pacifist but I could really hurt somebody if provoked. That's how I grew up, so that's how I tend to do stuff now.

this.

get the fucker person into a lock
image
and hold him there until he calms down.
-----------------------------------

since you got in a 'fight' with no chance to talk your way out of it,
he either is drunk or in rage. both states where you can easily overwhelm him since they are likely to do errors.

being a parcifist does not mean you have to be someones bitch.
it mean more that violence is the last of your options and if used, it should incapacitate your opponent just enough to give you a head start.

You realise that lock is completely ineffective right? Like you'd only be able to employ it on a guy who had never HEARD of the concept of fighting before?

It might be a joke poster but I'm just checking.

Depends on how much you've practiced the move and how well the punch is thrown. All told, that simple throw should take about one second for a practiced person. Mind you, if the opponent is trained, of course he won't overstretch a punch like that, but that's how you know where you stand in a fight.
Remember the words of Bruce Lee: "I don't fear the man who has practiced ten thousand kicks one time. I fear the man who has practiced one kick ten thousand times."

I like all the ideas of being able to suplex any attacker into submission, or that feeling sorry for the attacker is actually going to do something. Its so impractical its hilarious. Pacifism is understandable from a war and peace between nations perspective, but against self defense its quite foolish. You should twist the question up a bit though, to really make people think.

What if a man was physically assaulting your wife/husband?

I mean, you can be as noble and peaceful as you want, but when you bring it basic human instincts, I can't think of why someone wouldn't want to physically stop their loved ones from being hurt. Even if you don't accomplish anything in the process of fighting. To me that's messed up.

miketehmage:
Okay so I've been lurking around these forums for a while now and there seems to be a fair few pacifists on here so I'd like to ask you all something.

If a single person, of the same height and build as you, were to hit you, and continue to hit you repeatedly, would you hit them back?

If the answer is no due to fear, I'm not interested, if however the answer is no due to restraint and beliefs, could you explain that to me?

If someone is hitting you, why wouldn't you hit back? What gives them the right to hit you? And why shouldn't you defend yourselves?

Let's try to keep this civil people :)

EDIT: To clear this up for some people who have been asking. I mean if it is unprovoked and you don't know the person. :)

I'd also like to point out that I don't go around looking for fights, I think some of you may have been getting the wrong impression from this post :P

I'm not a pacifist, but I do have to ask: why is your only defense an offense? Why are your only options to stand there and take it or to hit him back?

I'm under the impression that being a pacifist means trying finding non-violent solutions to problems like this, not that other people have the right to him them without consequences.

Violence almost always does not end well. If you're being constantly attacked the situation is slightly different, but if it's just some random guy around your own physical strength attacking you for no reason, it's actually stupid to fight with him. They might be armed. Run, or get help.

pacifist or not, if your life is in danger you will always retaliate to defend yourself unless .... you're not all there in the head.

i never go looking for a fight but if they bring it to me who am i to turn them down, ofcourse i'll try and defuse it by trying to reason with them. If that fails then the fists come out and show them what i got.

ElPatron:

ReservoirAngel:
I did, however, continue to mouth off to him though.

/facepalm

I'm sorry, I think your mistook "pacifist" for "rubbish strategist". That's not turning the other cheek, that's pulling the pants down and showing both cheeks.

Eh, call it what you will. Just because I won't hit a guy doesn't mean I'll refrain from insulting him, that's just what I do. Besides if I'd have actually fought back me and him would both have gotten punished. As it was, only he got any kind of punishment while I got off totally free.

So that was kind of a strategy on my part. I could take whatever he could dish out and he'd end up in the shit because of the whole "punching me repeatedly" thing.

If someone did that I would hit them straight back. Harder. In the groin.

Clearly I'm not a pacifist haha.

Self defense is a human right.

Use_Imagination_here:

somonels:
No, I don't believe in violence... but then again I don't consider taking a life as violence, I see it as making someone a favor.

i know you're not serious but there are some fucked up people on this site so I have to ask.

Kappa?
I was serious, though the message might not be understood in the same way I intended it to be.
I don't believe in violence; I do believe that sometimes lives have to be taken; I do not use the technical meaning of violence; taking a life is just like any other action, with both negative and positive aspects. Which part do you find so appalling?

well in my head, i would effortlessly dodge all their attacks until they were too tired to move. in reality, they would probably kick my ass (mostly due to the fact that i have no fighting ability). im a pacifist but i do believe, as a certain point, you need to fight back. i would never throw the first punch and would do my rest to restrain the person instead of hurt them. however, if i felt my life was in danger, i would fight back. if its just a case of someone trying to get a rise out of me or wanting to hit me a couple times to make me look weak, fine. that isnt worth my time and hitting them back would only make things worse. but if they clearly werent going to stop hitting me and were planning to beat the living hell out of me, it would be foolish to not defend myself.

ReservoirAngel:
So that was kind of a strategy on my part. I could take whatever he could dish out and he'd end up in the shit because of the whole "punching me repeatedly" thing.

>school punishment
>strategy

Heh. Selling a hare for a cat. Perhaps not insulting him would not have gotten you slapped.

somonels:

Use_Imagination_here:

somonels:
No, I don't believe in violence... but then again I don't consider taking a life as violence, I see it as making someone a favor.

i know you're not serious but there are some fucked up people on this site so I have to ask.

Kappa?
I was serious, though the message might not be understood in the same way I intended it to be.
I don't believe in violence; I do believe that sometimes lives have to be taken; I do not use the technical meaning of violence; taking a life is just like any other action, with both negative and positive aspects. Which part do you find so appalling?

Well your phrasing was a bit odd, but if thats your genuine philosphy than I respect that. It's just that the very short way you said it made it sound like a bad joke (no offense) about thinking that taking someones life is doing them a favour because... Life sucks I guess? If you do genuingly believe that and I misunderstood what you said again, well personally I'd find that disgusting but I still believe in your right to your opinion.

Use_Imagination_here:

somonels:

Use_Imagination_here:
i know you're not serious but there are some fucked up people on this site so I have to ask.

Kappa?
I was serious, though the message might not be understood in the same way I intended it to be.
I don't believe in violence; I do believe that sometimes lives have to be taken; I do not use the technical meaning of violence; taking a life is just like any other action, with both negative and positive aspects. Which part do you find so appalling?

Well your phrasing was a bit odd, but if thats your genuine philosphy than I respect that. It's just that the very short way you said it made it sound like a bad joke (no offense) about thinking that taking someones life is doing them a favour because... Life sucks I guess? If you do genuingly believe that and I misunderstood what you said again, well personally I'd find that disgusting but I still believe in your right to your opinion.

No offense taken, I do like bad jokes, but the original post explicitly says 'doing someone a favor,' as in: someone always benefits from the death of another. I do adhere to a 'life sucks' philosophy and am a notorious misanthrope but to my understanding those things, without a belief in something beyond death, create a conflict involving taking lives, but essentially my motto is: "Life sucks, so keep on living it."

As much as I like to keep things peaceful, conflict is often the only way to solve things.

"Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."

henritje:
I would hit back. I'm a pacifist but have no problems with defending myself.

That avatar of yours combined with that statement makes think of Arnold saying that. LOL

GamerMage:

henritje:
I would hit back. I'm a pacifist but have no problems with defending myself.

That avatar of yours combined with that statement makes think of Arnold saying that. LOL

I think AHNOLD would TAHMINATE himself and it would result in the best fight ever.

See, that is why I study Aikido. So if someone starts trying to hit me, I can defend myself (read: totally incapacitate oponent) without really hurting them back.

miketehmage:

If the answer is no due to fear, I'm not interested, if however the answer is no due to restraint and beliefs, could you explain that to me?

If someone is hitting you, why wouldn't you hit back? What gives them the right to hit you? And why shouldn't you defend yourselves?

So yes, I am a pacifist. However, before I believe in non-violence, I believe people should protect themselves and those they love. If that involves violence... well. One day that will be fixed.

For me, I take every single non violent action I can take in order to avoid a fight. I once stopped someone from fighting a friend by smiling while they spit on me and slapped me. It didn't bother me, because I was in control of the situation the entire time, and got them to back off simply by being awesome and unexpected.

If the situation does devolve into violence, I use Aikido, which is the greatest style of martial arts ever invented.

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