What do you think there needs to be, to make a great villain? Pages PREV 1 2 3 NEXT | |
First and foremost: Motivation is key. Without motivation a villain just becomes...I don't know. What do you call a villain without motivation? Second: Info and backstory. How did the villain become who he/she is or come to the point he/she is at in the story. However, it must be noted that too much info and backstory is boring and risks creating plotlines similar to Metal Gear Solid's, all over the place and almost incomprehensible. Third: They need to be a clear and present threat. They need to come off as being capable of just about anything. There's probably s some other things I missed. But these seem to be the characteristics of some of the better villains I've seen in various forms of media. Of course there are exceptions to every rule: The Joker practically spits in the face of guideline number 2. | |
I'm not saying a single offense is enough to disqualify a villain (or any story or story element), on its face. The plot hole/inconsistency/incoherence for example are dependent on a lot of things, obviously. There's the personal bullshit tolerance level of the particular reader/viewer, there's the egregiousness of the offense, there's the level of subtlety to it (some things you might not even notice until way down the line when someone mentions it to you or something), and all that. I'm just saying, as a rule of thumb, it's better to have a well thought-out (and that doesn't mean complex) villain over a poorly thought out one, just as almost anything else. That said, I find it really strange that some people pull out some almost random characteristic and label it as intrinsic for a good villain. Like why does the villain need to be the polar opposite of the protagonist? Why does he have to have a necessarily deep motivation for his actions? Why do we have to know everything or most everything about him? *cough* | |
Alduin was a terrible villain. Why? Because we were forced to believe he was the villain, and he was abscent most of the time. And because he had a ridiculous voice. Letho was an awesome villain. Why? He had a reason that wasn't fucking retarded (herp derp I want to control the world), he wasn't evil per say and he was almost always around the corner. Plus, he was a fucking badass. | |
One big thing that I enjoy is when the villain is the protagonist. Revisionist fairy tales, Sith characters in TOR, Death Note, these are all effective in that regard. It's also important for them to have a motivation that clearly is in line with "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." However, I DON'T like the mopey "You don't understand me, I'm mopey and evil" villain that's supposed to be the antithesis to the egomaniac variety that plagued stories for generations. | |
I think what every villain needs is some intelligence. In short, a lot of villains come up with fairly decent schemes but then almost inevitably they make some sort of blunder or something that gives the hero a chance where there should be none. So I want to see a villain who is genuinely smart, doesn't make aforementioned blunder and thinks ahead. The hero should only be allowed to overcome this challenge by actually outsmarting the villain. To put it simply, I want the side that is actually better (read: smarter) to win. I think this really was the reason that Death note was such a hit for the first few episodes, before losing popularity with the rest. Yes I know death note is still very popular, but its only because the initial episodes were so good. EDIT: Out of personal preference, I would grant bonus points to any villain who generally speaks less and usually doles out sarcastic statements. | |
charisma or just plain insanity like the Joker | |
OP, read this right now. Rich Burlew managed to make Xyklon who is an awesome villain. Well, not the best, but...well, he has the characteristics that I dislike, namely - he does evil for evil's sake. If you read the Start of Darkness, it pretty much shows that Xyklon has never been good, doesn't have a tragic past or anything like that. And yet, he manages to be entertaining and clever. Oh but don't read Start of Darkness for Xyklon, do it for Redcloack. That character is very good for a villain.
What makes Kerghan so good? You can talk to him. And the dude makes sense as he describes why he wants to destroy all life. Fucking scary. | |
Like any good character he needs to have human emotions, a motivation and be a 3 dimensional character in general... Or a moustache, either or... | |
I think they have to be similar to the hero in some respect but have some point of divergence that doesn't allow common ground to be reached. Its called a "Not so different" trope and its majorly at play in works like The Lord of the Rings in which Gollum is what Frodo could become if he succumb to the ring, Batman where Batman sees the world as having no order and needing to bring order to it and the Joker wishes to live in the chaotic world, and in The Godfather Part II where Michael (who could be considered a villain) is powerful and intense but lets his intensity eat away at him and turn him into a monster where as Vito (as a young man, who could be considered a hero) is powerful and intense and thus is transformed into the universally respected Don Vito Corleone. | |
Dude. You're forgetting General Tarquin, who is a FAR more interesting villain than Xykon. Xykon's fun, sure, but Tarquin is a much, much, more interesting, fun, savvy, and complex character. | |
A great villian needs to be memorable and enjoyable (which might sound obvious) but the means through which this can be achieved is by no means uniform. Sometimes it's becuase they have strong motivations/backstory, or it may be due to their personality or how they interact with their heroic counterparts. I find a villian can made good using any single one (or multiples) of these and these can be approached through any number of ways. There no real shared traits I find myself drawn to in a villian just any trait that is well written/portrayed. Saying that making them clasy with an out of plac moustache, top hat and monocle is one of the easiest things to get right so any writers unsure of how to make a good villian character theres your safe starting point. | |
this covers it for me http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Magnificent_Bastards | |
I'll tell ya what DOESN'T make a good villain; an organization that pointlessly kills civilians, and claiming they're in the right, see Cerberus in Mass Effect 3. Yes I know they were indoctrinated, but they still thought shooting people for no good reason would contribute to humanity's evolution. | |
I'm not forgetting him, Tarquin is genuinely interesting. Xyklon is absolutely not my kind of guy, and yet, Burlew manages to make him more than a cardboard cutout. :) | |
although it isnt entirely necessary, i believe that a villain can be great if the audience can sympathize with them in some way. i enjoy watching the antagonist in a film or tv show and thinking to myself, "is he really that bad?". it makes me care more about what happens to them, rather than just hoping they die a violent death. | |
Why. That's the answer to your question. The "why". Sure some games show How or what makes villains evil, or just villains. Take for example The Joker, the why is asked and is answered "Just because." It's a rather genius formula. The villain only makes up only half of the actual villain, the other half is yourself, and it only justifies the other's half. If other games could mimic and make their own uses of this formula, we'd have A LOT more memorable games. EDIT: Holy crap, I got ninja'd big time :( You Escapists and your smarts... | |
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My ideal villain is someone who isn't outwardly evil. For example, Senator Palpatine. He smiles and placates the good guys one moment but behind closed doors he is a mastermind/puppet master who is playing both sides of a war for his own personal gain. Next, the villain should be shockingly brilliant and yet delightfully mad, such as Heath Ledger's Joker from The Dark Knight. I really liked when Alfred says "Some mean aren't looking for anything rational. They can't be bought, bullied, or negotiated with. Some men just like to watch the world burn." I really appreciate that in a villain, someone who's brilliant and undoubtedly evil, but it's evil without a true purpose. His plots are vast and deep, yet there's little to no motivation behind it: it's just evil for evil's sake. Next, I have to say no super powers. I have a lot more respect for a villain that's essentially just "Average Joe #153 with an evil master plan" than one that's got super powers backing him up. And lastly, despite all my use of the pronoun "he" in the first three factors, my ideal villain is actually a villainess. "Hell hath no fury..." etc etc. :P | |
Someone you do not expect as a villain is always a good one. After all when someone seems so right and just the last thing you expect for them to do is falsely frame you in revenge for something you did to them when younger. | |
I tend to make villains "the good guy in their own mind". A good deal of my so-called villains are merely the opposing faction in a war (i.e. different countries). No one is really the "evil" one, since each have valid arguments for why they're right and the other is wrong. But I do occassionally have a "true" villain, and I try to make them as threatening as possible, while still making them human, with their own weaknesses and strengths and dreams and even love interests (and I find it so much fun to have the HERO kidnap the love interest to gain leverage XD). Although I don't have many "true" heroes, mostly antihero type characters because fuck goody-two-shoes, man. Captcha: "Tickle the ivories" | |
He needs to have motivation as already stated, and his aim and the way he goes around to get it MUST be uneasy/unnerving and down right fucking evil, think paedophile stalking a school with drugs booze and sweets.. | |
A good antagonist (not necessarily villain) serves three primary purposes: 1) To act as an inverted mirror to the protagonist. Basically, showing a might-have-been look at the hero. This is why the Joker is such a fantastic antagonist. He's basically Batman, but instead of "I must fight crime", it's "I must laugh". Batman and the Joker are, at their core, essentially the same person, just centered on a different philosophy. 2) To drive the plot. At the most basic level, the Hero's Journey is about a single conflict, and everything throughout the story ties into that conflict. On top of that, the conflict is controlled by two actors, the pro- and antagonist. The standard template of the journey is that the hero is unable to control the conflict, and as such it must fall to the antagonist to drive it. They need to establish what's going on, when/how it happens, and the sequence of events necessary for their efforts to come to fruition. Xanatos from Gargoyles is the classic example of this, but there's no need for Xanatos Gambits every few minutes. They simply need to have a goal and be visibly driving towards it. Just by doing that, they drive the plot. 3) Symbolism. As mentioned above, the Hero's Journey is all about a single conflict. This conflict always has ideological roots. It could be as simple as "selfishness vs selflessness" to as complicated as "Christianity vs Hinduism" or anything in between. Both the pro- and antagonist represent ideals. A good antagonist represents an idea that is being portrayed as flawed or evil, but still makes you sympathize with it. The audience needs to be able to understand how they came to represent what they do, and can thus be brought to sympathize. The quintessential example of this is Andrew Ryan. He is the central antagonist for the first 2/3 of Bioshock, and wholly represents Objectivism, which the entire game continually harps on as being inherently flawed. Yet anyone who's played it can recognize the bit with the golf club as one of the most powerful moments in entertainment history. These criteria are what makes good, memorable, and important villains. Everything else is secondary. Edited for spelling/word choice errors | |
it all depends on the context, and how the story is built up, but the main thing is the villain brings feelings of hatred towards him a villain's aim can be obscured, but as the mass effect series demonstrated, the main villain must have first have a barrier of sorts that the hatred is aimed at, and once that barrier is gone, all you can do is hate the guts of the vilain | |
Very true, for me in recent memory, Alduin is the worst villain I have seen for a long time. Reasons: Conversely, Caesar is perhaps the best villain I've seen in a game for a long time. I know he doesnt have to be the bad guy but thats one of the good things. Reasons: | |
Everything the Joker is. He is insanity born in human flesh, and I love him! In all honesty their needs to be motive, determination, a bit of insanity, and overall overpowered factor. Not really sure what else, all my favorite comic book characters are crazy, guess it's because I lost sense of my own sense of reality some time ago. Now if you excuse me, I promised the Artist formally known as Prince that I'd meet him on Martian plains of Cydonia to duel for the release of Micheal Jackson from the prison of Molten Helm. | |
For me what needs to be there to make a villain really stand out is a decent motive (or decent reason to have a lack of a real motive), a tragic backstory, cool powers and they need to be really in the characters' faces and actually do some really bad things to make them really feel like an actual villain, not just some sinister dude that gets smacked around by the main character/s, and to make you yourself want to get rid of them. Looking awesome helps too. | |
I was going to say these, but after thinking about it, will go with determination instead. Both of your answers are fantastic and I agree that a great villain needs both of those. I just think that determination is the most important thing a great villain needs. The villain needs to be able to hop on the bike every time they fall off or are pushed off by the hero. My favorite villains have always been very good at staying on the bike no matter what. Bowser for example, is still determined to defeat Mario and take over the worlds despite losing many many many times. | |
I would say when villains themselves get things done. Usually when a villain sits back and has his/her servants do all the work it tends to bite them in the butt. Take a look at Bowser.. he usually sits back and has his followers do all the work only to get owned at the end by Mario. Scar would of been a much better villain at the end if he didn't rely on the hyenas so much (that and if he actually kept his word... the guy became to lazy and dependent on his army.) A good villain that stood out to me especially at the very end would be Pein. His motives and history is what makes him so likable as a villain though he wasn't evil so to say. Much better to have a villain that's misunderstood then one made for the sake of just being evil overall. | |
Great villains just need to pose a true challenge and a very real threat to the protagonists. The perfect example is Joker. What makes him really stand out is that while Batman is calculating and seeks order and justice, the Joker is chaotic and completely insane, laughing in the face of everything Batman stands for. The story can only exist if there is an obstacle to overcome, so the villain is the most important piece of the story. The greater the obstacle, the greater the story. The easy way is to just make the villain OP, but it pays off for the villain to be tailor-made to the story and protagonist. It's also a good idea to think of the villain not as a single entity, but as a concept that lingers over the story. As such, you can turn a single concept into an arsenal of villains that represent individual parts of this overarching concept. | |
A posh British accent certainly doesn't hurt. | |
A truly great villain needs to have motivations that make them feel relatable. Basically, we need to look at the villain and think "Wow, I can kind of understand/pity him. I might have done what he did if I were put through what he went through.". A truly amazing villain makes you feel insecure about yourself, reminds you of the darkness that you could become if the wrong things happen to you, and makes you doubt the heroes, even for a moment. | |
Saren Arterius, /thread | |
I hate the concept of villains as it is. I prefer characters who simply have a mutual dislike towards each-other or are morally ambiguous such as the case with Mr. Freeze. He's a good guy, who does bad things, to neutral people, for good reasons. | |
They need to be an actual challenge to the protagonist, for starters. Nothing kills a story faster than a lame villain who can't stand up to the hero. Also, they need depth, so that even if you hate them for being bad, you understand what their reasons are. A bad guy who's bad just because (in most cases) isn't cool. I also like it when the villain's motivations aren't entirely evil or bad. Ambiguity can stir things up a bit when it comes to bad guys. | |
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