So, lets talk about racism for a minute Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 | |
Here we go people social darwinism at its finest! Lets give a big round of applause to everyone here at the Escapist! ...this thread really should be locked... | |
If you look through my previous posts you'll see plenty of substance. Not that I expect you to... Everything you say is empty. All your points have been previously addressed. 'You blow out a lot of hot air, but you never have substance.' lol at hypocrisy 'What argument that has no evidence? I pointed out that the article listed environmental factors, many of which are accepted, and all the ones to support your pro-racist view about the genetic factors are disputed.' There is evidence. Its just not conclusive. Still evidence. Makes it more likely than the other argument. Look through previous posts. 'No, I'll call it weak for you not actually defending any of the specifics of it.' Ok that was kind of funny actually. You tried to avoid my prediction being right but it didn't really work out. 'Not really, no. But if that's what you need to tell yourself to feel better about being racist, okay.' Another foolish statement. I've said time and time again that if I'm a racist then let it be so. I don't have a problem with being referred to as such and its funny how people automatically assume its an insult in this world we live in. Sorry, but you've got a lot of reading to do. Quit wasting my time. | |
I'm sure everyone will agree on that. Or not.
No, actually you didn't previously address the fact there is more evidence for environmental factors over genetic ones. As shown in the article you presented.
Not hypocrisy.
Except that the other argument has a list of mostly undisputed causes, while the racist ones are all disputed so they're not really good evidence. Not only not conclusive, their studies tend to suck.
I don't care too much about your prediction, but it's wrong. That you insult me is irrelevant, that you don't also have substance is the problem.
You're clearly defensive about it. Sure you can say that it's fine to admit you are, but you're apparently sensitive about it. See: Your posts that evade the point in the first few pages.
I don't care if you have a lot of reading to do. Unless maybe you're actually checking facts before believing something this time? | |
Whatever you say mate, whatever you say. | |
Again with the ad hominem attacks. I don't want there to be a difference, because frankly I don't give a flying fuck if there is a difference. The only thing I have said in this entire thread is that it is a possibility that must be considered (and an unlikely one at that). Dismissing it without evidence is just as ridiculous as believing it without evidence.
1) It's not my pet theory. I don't know how many times I have say it: I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I think it's a possibility, no more and no less. 2) Dismissing anything as a possibility without evidence in either direction is absurd at best and outright idiotic at worst. It doesn't matter what it is. It could be a difference in brain chemistry between races or it could be a teapot orbiting Jupiter. It doesn't matter. It's still a possibility. Accepting something as possible does not mean accepting it as likely or inevitable though, and that's something you apparently still need to figure out.
See, here's the thing, I have never once said anything about intelligence. Everything I have said has been about the actual physical structure of the brain. Know how you test that? Strap your volunteers into an MRI for a bit and ask them questions and see how the brain reacts to it. Beyond that, it's not terribly hard to eliminate those biases you linked with a properly designed study. For the first one, simply don't let them know you're testing intelligence. Just include the intelligence test as part of a more general test and don't let them know the intelligence part is the important bit. For the second,that's why I said go to the inner cities where everyone has grown up under similar conditions. How many times do I need to say it? People who grow up in the same neighborhood are going to have very similar levels of education on average, especially in the inner city areas where you're (sadly enough) most likely to get an appropriately high level of ethnic diversity. The other issues in that article you link can also be addressed but I can't be fucked with coming up with what-ifs all day.
Dude, again, I FUCKING AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS ALREADY. There has never been unbiased research into the matter (that I've seen at least), thus any studies already done are tainted by bias and are fucking completely useless and should be ignored. I don't know how I can make this any more explicit. The topic is far too charged and people are far too sensitive about it for anyone to be willing to perform/fund an unbiased study, because there's a risk the results will not be to someone's liking and then they will be out of a job. Forever. Until such a study happens, saying it's true or false with any degree of certainty on the matter, is completely ridiculous. All you can do is say your opinion on the matter, and unfortunately opinions have no bearing whatsoever on fact. You've somehow got it into your head, because I don't agree with you that it's completely impossible and that there is no inherent physical differences between a Mongoloid, a Negroid, and a Caucasoid, that I'm the Grand Wizard of the local branch of the KKK. Get the fuck over yourself. People are inherently different. Steven Hawking is smarter than both of us combined, and whatever Olympic athlete you care to name is stronger. Why is the existence of such a distinction so abhorrent to you? If the color of a person's skin or structure of their skull is different, it's highly likely other things are different as well. What these things are, I don't know nor do I care, but saying that there can't possibly be a difference in natural ability between different races of humanity is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of everything we know about evolution. | |
Racism in the real world is based on silly ideas that don't hold up. It's based on the idea that some races are better at different things, and if you take away social factors, it's just not true - human is human. Race only has a correlation link between these "traits" that races apparently have over other races, not a causal link. Asians are "good at math" because they value education over socializing - that's a cultural things. Jews are good with money because their ancestors were FORCED to be money lenders, so banking has been in their families for a LONG time. If you look at any trait, and you'll find a social or cultural reason for it before you have to start looking at their DNA for some racial link. and after reading some of the other responses on this thread, I think I'll just leave this here | |
Unfortunately it's one of the few ways you can integrate a previously segregated people into what is considered normal society. It's not pretty, it's not even really fair, but neither is racism and bigotry which Affirmative Action attempts to fix - not by changing the minds of the current population, but by attrition. Growing up in a mixed society tends to make you more tolerant and can (usually) result in a blending of the cultures (one can hope) in a good way. Which can sometimes explain children who hold different beliefs on the mixing of races than than of generations prior. Affirmative action takes a LONG time to work, and is generally hampered both by the resentment it fosters in those it disparages against and by creating a cultured belief that the disenfranchised are less capable and thus less deserving of special attention such a law enacts thus creating distrust on both sides further slowing the process down. It is required because it is attempting to fix a problem with the current environment and unfortunately must be tolerated by those who hold no such segregationist beliefs for the betterment of the society as a whole. | |
I have actually agreed with everything you have said, I detest racism in any form. I was just curious if you would contradict yourself by answering my question with something like, "Yeah, Americans are stupid." Anyway, I glad to see that that's not the case. As for the Nazi's (which my original question had nothing to do with, sorry for the misunderstanding) my opinions similar, but far less tasteful or well written as I simply say, "fuck Nazis", and generally feel that no explanation is needed. Nevertheless, I won't demonize the Nazis as I don't think any people/person can be pure evil, but their ideology is reprehensible. | |
What it means is that morality is always an afterthought and might as well be a moot point when you go about the destruction of life on a global scale. The only kind of morality in war is "Are we killing them in a way that's not slow and painful?" But the question of "Do we really need to kill anyone." Isn't even an issue, it never comes up, it never really needs to, because at that point, you're well beyond moral thinking. I guess i'm saying that war is a brutal and ugly thing, applying special made up rules to it doesn't make it any prettier, so we might as well just drop the pretenses. | |
And what people think is ethical and moral is then simply that society should function and people should be able to live. No matter how you frame it I can point out how it supports a particular ethical belief. So long as it has a particular agenda I can do so. That it is a matter of elevating a certain set of values above all others is inescapable. And when it is reduced to values it is reduced to what we think is right and wrong.
Those basic tenants, what do you think they are? Moral and ethical beliefs. Those duties etc, that's all they are. There is nothing else for them to be. | |
With respect. I should be very careful about offering that opinion. I'm sure that you are aware that the natives living in the interior of New Zealand were the last primitive culture to be discovered by "civilized" white men (sometime in the 1920's?). Yet from among those primitives were people who adapted quickly, and within a very few years became capitalists - among other things. There are white men who have never reached that level of success. So is the successful Abo, or the unsuccessful White somehow anomalous to their 'group'? Intentionally dismissing the inherent capabilities of other people. 50 years ago, such things were been said about black men in the U.S. | |
Applying rules to war may not make it prettier, but they do make it less ugly.[1] I am of the opinion that war should almost always be a defensive thing, and violence should be avoided as much as possible. As for when war has begun.... it gets a bit more complicated than just "are we killing them in a way that's not slow and painful", because there's "what about non-combatants?" and "what if 'non-combatants' are specifically working for the enemy (spying and such)?" and a number of other questions. As for the answers - in general, if the cause is truly just, do what is needed. However, if the option is presented between killing and not killing OR between killing painfully or killing quickly, choose the latter choice. It is better to reduce the suffering and death, if given the opportunity. To do otherwise is wrong.
No worries, I misunderstood because I thought you were someone else. Sorry for that! Anyways, I can get behind is "Americans do stupid things", but only as a subset of "people do stupid things". Captcha - politically correct [1] Not sure that made sense. Going with it! | |
There is negative discrimination, and there is positive discrimination. As a member of a highly discriminated against group myself, I have experienced both kinds. They both suck! They both remind me that people see me as different to themselves, any reminder that I am different is exactly what I wish to avoid. That said, while negative discrimination still exists, at least we do very occasionally get the benefits of positive discrimination, it's still a little annoying, but you know what... after all the shit us minorities go through, sometimes we deserve something that's good for us. When privileged people complain about this, all I can here is "Oh no, a minority group is getting something that we're not, it's not fair! Waaa Waaa". Well you know what, this is how we are made to feel all the fucking time!! I'm actually glad to see privileged people on the reviving end of it sometimes. Stop complaining, and check your privilege: Because while you may not realize it, simply by being alive, and being a member of a privileged group, you help to oppress people without even realizing it. Be grateful for what you have, and if you see someone getting something that you'r not, just look at all the things that are better off for you!! In a world where all prejudice against minorities is gone, then you could be annoyed about something like this, but right now it's simply serving as a tool to try and level the scales. Get annoyed over prejudice against minorities first, then deal with prejudice that works in their favour. Because by trying to stop it before the balance is even, kinda makes you an oppressor, even though you don't realize it. An apology to the Aboriginal people is in order here, and I hope that next time you see a minority group getting better treatment than you, you will think about all the instances in which you get better treatment than them. There really is no argument about this, and anyone who thinks there is, clearly needs to take a good hard look at their own privilege. Seriously: If you're white, if you live in an MEDC, if you're male, if you're straight, if you don't have medical issues if you're cis, if you come from a good background, and so many more things that I can't be bothered to type right now: Then you have privilege: REALIZE IT | |
I don't think so. All that racism does is encourage the favoured group into a learned helplessness dependancy on those benefits, while at the structural level, nothing changes. It's just fighting a symptom while the underlying problems remain, or even, get worse. Because the resentment you talked of is true, so the conclusion should be that affirmative action type racism only worsens the situation. Neither is it needed to avoid anything. For one thing, I remember aboriginals in Australia showing ramping rates of alcoholism and child abuse. Both those wreck a community. What needs changing in that case is the culture which enables that; how come it's normal to drink or screw or beat your own children? How come such a thing goes unnoticed, unchanged or unpunished? Where I'm from, in the 80's, if you stepped on a bicycle on sunday, people would throw rocks at you, pull you off and assault you. By the 90's this had stopped and didn't occur anymore. How come? Because the culture changed. The extremist religious denomination (reformists) which controls a large part of the village lost power, the police stopped tolerating religious violence, a new generation of reformists was slightly less extremist gained more prominence in that decade due to aging and people from elsewhere with normal values also moved in bit by bit. Still, much like aboriginals, reformists show much higher rates of various social problems, like for instance child abuse, but as a group, they are shrinking in favour of normal groups in society. Being an aboriginal as it is now must not be preserved. That identity is constructed from a primitive culture that doesn't belong in this age, added by years of conflicts with another group, years of apathy from losing those conflicts, hostility, marginalisation and learned helplessness. And from that a new identity will be born, likely based in large part on elements of the present, but selectively choosing those that will be fit for the present day and age. And because Aboriginals failed to let that identity of violent territorialism die and failed to adapt, they were indeed defeated and in large part destroyed. What remained were those forced to go along in the change. Unsurprising thanks to religion and the previous hostilities, other groups regarded Aboriginals as inferiors and made them 2nd rate people. Being 2nd rate was survival and the limited possible succes in those days. One thing is for certain, clinging to the past and demanding racism isn't going to solve anything. | |
Yeah right, it'll make things worse.... because granting people who have been discriminated against a tiny bit of the privilege that others have enjoyed for years, would be silly: Whereas if the majority group have the privilege (Both in the past and now), then that's fine is it? I'll make this really simple for you... Imagine you got given a bag of 10 cookies, you were supposed to share them out equally with a minority group... but you didn't. You chose instead to have nine all to yourself, while kicking the minority in the face. Now your on the last cookie, and because of how you behaved in the past, someone else has taken charge of the cookies and is giving the last one to the minority... and your saying that that's not fair? Not even that, but your claiming that it will "encourage the minority into a learned helplessness dependency on those benefits". Are you sure about that? Because the majority are doing pretty well right now as a result of those benefits: They are certainly not helpless!! So why would giving the minority group, a little bit of privilege for once be a bad thing! Something tells me that you're just worried about losing your own privilege. You don't want to stand on equal ground with everyone else. Well you know what to go back to the metaphor: Give them the last cookie all to themselves, because you've already had nine!! After that apologize to them, and make sure that you share the next bag!
Okay, the child abuse side of things I cant comment on, what I can say is that minorities have a much harder time of it in life than you could ever imagine: I feel scared leaving my house for a cigarette, because of the amount of times I've been beaten up, and that fear has driven me to drink like hell, just so I can manage the walk to work. It is not the culture that cause alcoholism, rather the simple fact that the rest of the world treats minorities like shit! I'm not sure if that level of stress and fear could contribute to the high levels of abuse, but it wouldn't surprise me. It can certainly fuck with someone's mental well being, and that could well lead to abuse. It doesn't excuse them from what they do, but it does explain it. You however, rather that looking at the way the majority is oppressing the minority, and seeing that the oppression could be influencing their behaviour, seem to think that because of their behaviour, they need to be oppressed even more.
That hardly counts, no one forced you to ride a bike on a Sunday, don't get me wrong: It's still fucked up, but you knew what to do in order to avoid it. I on the other hand have to put up with shit like this every signal day, whenever I leave my house. You may have been through some shit: I'm not denying that, but suffering what sounds like a fairly small amount of religious discrimination that was easy to avoid (By the sounds of it - just don't ride a bike on Sunday), is a world away from what a lot of us go through. I've been hospitalized 4 times this year, because I committed the terrible crime of walking down the street. Your entire post has indicated that you do not understand what it's like to be a minority.
Right, Aboriginals right now "must not" be preserved, they're "primitive", and "don't belong in this age".... that's not fucked up at all. It's certainly not racist.... oh wait, yes it fucking is. What the hell are you on about?? I suppose next you'll be saying that being black as it is now can't be preserved!? What the hell are you taking? If you think that's okay to say, and is not incredibly racist and offensive, then I assume that you will not take offence at this statement: "Blablahb must not be preserved, he's primitive and does not belong in this age". It's not nice to read is it? Kinda stings a little, so don't you dare do it to other people. And next time you make a post CHECK YOUR F***ING PRIVILEGE!!! | |
Do two wrongs make a right?
I'm pretty sure that you A are vastly exagerating, and B could avoid whatever negative contacts you've had, if you tried according to your own ideas of avoiding. I'm pretty sure if a race war had broken out in the UK, the media would've picked up about it by now, so I'm not going to believe you. Neither am I going to get into your lame attempts at calling me a racist because you disagree with me, but can't refute what I say because you know I'm right. | |
Two wrongs do certainly not make a right, however some some wrongs have existed for far longer than others. Minority groups deserve a leg up, because of how much we have been (And still are) pushed down. I'm all for eliminating discrimination, but while negative discrimination still exists, then positive discrimination is not a bad thing. Positive discrimination is a poor attempt at solving the problem, a mere bandage on a wound that needs stitching, but don't take the bandage off, just get the god damn stitches!! Because right now, that bandage is the only thing stopping the wound from bleeding out (A bad metaphor I know, as the bandage would need to be removed before the stitches could be placed, but I'm sure you understand my point - negative discrimination must be dealt with before positive discrimination) As for "making a right", you don't seem at all interested in that, you just seem to want to ensure that minorities never have any advantage, no matter how small, over you. Interesting how someone who is in a position of privilege wants to stop other from gaining even footing... What are you worried about? Are you scared that without some of your pre-existing and unearned advantages that you might not be able to maintain your position in society? Worried that some of us minorities might actually be better than you, and if the oppression was removed some of us might actually surpass you? (Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that I'm personally better than you - neither of us know enough about the other to make such a judgement yet - but it's inevitable that one of the people you're oppressing will be better than you in every possible way)
A race war has not broken out in the UK, at least not to my knowledge, and I have never claimed that I have suffered any form of racial discrimination: It would be odd if I have as I am white, and was born in this country. I recognize that in that regard I am very lucky, and that I have privilege because of that. I can never understand fully what it is like to be discriminated for racial reasons, however I do know what it is like to be oppressed. I simply said that I am a member of a minority group. A group that sadly still faces high levels of discrimination, and revives very little press coverage about it. I am scared to leave my house alone, or even to step outside for a smoke alone, because of things that have happened to me in the past. I am scared to contact the police when things go badly, because not once have they ever helped, and on several occasions have only discriminated against me further. You think I can avoid the discrimination I face? You're having a laugh, I can't even leave the house alone, let alone get a job. I go everywhere with my partner, and If I can't go with her, then my friends will go out for me to buy me food. I do what work I can from home, but it's not much of an income: I live in the poorest area of the UK. Avoiding riding a bike is simple, being hungry for days because there is no one who can hook me up with food, and I'm too scared to go out for it alone it a little different, so don't even dare to try and compare our experiences. And I have never said that you are a racist, not once. Please try to quote where I said that? Really, try it! All I have said is that you are part of a majority that oppresses a minority, sometimes purposefully, sometimes unknowingly, and in your case through ignorance. I truly believe that you do not realize what you do, or that realize how bad things still are for some people. That's why I asked you to check your privilege. Did you do it? You have to realize that simply by being alive, the majority help contribute to discrimination unless they actively fight it. Denying that it exists as you have done is even worse. You are an oppressor, denying it only makes you worse. One more time: CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE!!! Oh, and you're last comment, I refute completely what you say, and not only do I think your views are pretty fucking stupid, I have also provided several strong arguments that show that. You are an oppressor, and I'm starting to wonder if you're doing that through ignorance, or if you know exactly what you're doing, and you keep on doing it because you want to remain in your position at the top. | |
Affirmative action is never acceptable, insofar as it targets people who've had no hand in causing any inequalities. It's simple state sponsored racism/sexism, trampling on the rights of individuals who've never done anything to those they're being discriminated in favour of. There a bound to be majority individuals who're equally disadvantaged, and when the criteria for help is not "disadvantage" but "race/sex", then the state is actively discriminating those... and the people whom AA favour happily profiting off that discrimination. Only the individual economic situation of each person can ever be a reasonable criteria of government aid. If that turns out to overall favour certain groups whom those individuals belong to, that's totally fine: So long as those in other groups with equal needs are given equal treatment. It might suck that history have left some groups in overall poorer straits, but just as sexual abuse in no way gives the abused any right to continue the circle, groups which have suffered in the past have absolutely no justification for discriminating innocent people who never had any hand in that. Supporters of AA are simply racists/sexists who believe that the colour of their skin or their sex should give them special benefits over others who never did anything to them, and should be treated as such. | |
There's a pretty good Cracked article that came out today, anyone who says how whites 'screwed' the natives should read it: http://www.cracked.com/article_19864_6-ridiculous-lies-you-believe-about-founding-america.html | |
Re; Jojo and the skulls. Your "head shot" regarding the two skulls turns out to have missed the target completely. Your Spanish blog source is badly mistaken - and it is not the original source, as you contend. Here, read this: http://www.canovan.com/HumanOrigin/PINTUBI-1/PINTUBI-1.htm Now you can lick your wounds, knowing that you've mistaken an Australoid skull for a Neanderthal one. | |
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You're just saying that because you want there to be a difference. I can play that game too, see? Also note that cultural backgrounds aren't simply inherited and I never said they didn't influence performance on a test.
Dismissing it as a real thing until it's shown isn't absurd. Note that the current concensus is that there isn't. Until that changes no reason to go with your pet theory that there is a difference(see I can make stuff up too).
Racism matters when it comes to how they are raised. Ever hear of this amazing thing called 'nurture'? You seem clueless about how tests are done anyway and what might influence them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%26_intelligence#Stereotype_threat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%26_intelligence#Education
So you're admitting you didn't read the bit where I pointed out people did try to come to those conclusions and were mostly found wanting in their research. Okay.