If you've been on the Internet for more than a few hours, I'm sure you've probably heard something about this mysterious "friend zone" so many guys apparently get trapped in. If you haven't, the basic theory is this: If you are friends with a girl you like, she will not notice or consider your interest because you are friends. In her mind, you are a friend and ONLY a friend, never to be considered as anything else. There's even a meme based on the theory, Friend Zone Fiona (a bit of adult language in there, look out).
As a female, and having spent most of my life around a LOT of females who have been in a LOT of relationships (most of them in high school, mind) I find this theory quite baffling. I mean usually the stereotypes about guys and girls and relationships are based in SOME sort of logic or plausible event, but this is utter nonsense. And I think I've figured why. The way I see it, the friend zone is based on three misconceptions about women and relationships.
1. ANY girl you like will like you back if given the opportunity.
The concept of the "friend zone" is based on the situation of a guy likes a girl but she doesn't seem to be reciprocating. Meaning, the guy is running on the assumption that the girl does like him, she just hasn't realized it yet. Guys, I have some bad news for you. Just because you like a girl, it doesn't mean she's going to like you back. I don't care how well you know her, I don't care how well she knows you, I don't care how much you think you were made for each other. That's just not how it works. Relationships are a two way street--she has to like you just as much as you like her. And, believe it or not, it is very possible for you to be head over heels for someone, and they be totally disinterested. Trust me, that's the short version of the all stories of my crushes in high school, and I've seen many a friend join me in it. That's probably why they're called "crushes."
2. Girls do not have the ability to view friends as potential boyfriends.
There's a book by a guy named Chad Eastham, and in it he gave what I think is about the most accurate comparison of girl and guy's minds. Guys are like waffles. Everything in their mind is in totally separate compartment from all the other parts. This is why guys are often better at not being emotionally attached about sex than women are. Their sex drive and their desire for a single, dedicated mate are quite detached from each other (not always, and I realize that's broad, but compared to most women you have to admit most guys just do that better).
Now, the mind of a girl is more like spaghetti. Everything is all mixed and intermingled, one thing leading to the next and another and another thing. This is why girls tend to multitask better, can talk about a million things for hours on end, and have no problem continuing such conversations into the bathroom and back. "Bathroom? Whatever, it's just a more private place to chat!" There's less of a barrier there. Peeing and talking just isn't that big of a deal. There's no barrier (though being able to use stalls does help that, I suppose).
So in reality, girls are actually better at this than guys. Better at not putting things in such strict, separated boxes. Trust me: If she's available, she knows you, and she has the slightest inkling she might like you, then she's considered you as a possible date. The only thing that could keep her from thinking that is if she thinks you're not available (and even then that may not be a problem for her).
Also, here's a bit of "girl code" I'm going to let you in on. If you do outright tell a girl you like her, and she says she just wants to stay friends then that does NOT mean she hasn't considered it. That is her way of saying "I don't like you that way" without ruining your friendship with the harsh wording. It means exactly that--she wants to stay friends. She is not interested.
3. Relationships cannot sprout from friendships.
A lot of relationship threads pass through these forums, and one thing I see a lot of is this terminal fear of making friends with a girl before asking her out, all because of this mythical friend zone. But, then they run into trouble because asking out a girl who you're a total stranger to is rather creepy on her end. I am on the complete opposite spectrum of that friendship theory. I feel like the best relationships come from friendships. Honestly, I don't know if I'd want to date someone if I wasn't friends with them first. My brother and sister in law started out as friends. Now they've been together for more than 10 years, been married 3 of those years, and are about to build a house on some land they just bought.
And my first boyfriend started out as a friend. We met each other in October of that year, I realized I liked him around February, and around April he caught on and we got together. It didn't work out, but we had fun and left on friendly terms. But between February and April, there was a time when I guess you could say I was "friend zoned." We were going to see a movie with some friends, and he mentioned he was going to have trouble explaining to his parents that he was going to see a movie with a friend who was a girl, but not a girlfriend. Ouch, that stung. But I kept at him, finally made him aware of my feelings, and then he started chasing me back down. But, he didn't start making moves until he knew I liked him. And I understood that. He was a computer science major, not a psychic. And neither are women. If you've been working on a friend for a while and you're getting no response, just find a quiet place and outright tell her. I assure you, that is the fastest way to find out if there's going to be any reciprocation.
So in short, I feel like this "friend zone" is nothing more the invention of insecure guys who either don't understand how relationships work, or can't get up the gumption to get up and do something about the girl they are pining over. There may be situations similar to it, but it's not inescapable, and it is definitely not her fault. And I think that's the other thing that gets on my nerves about this--it shifts all the blame to the girl. It's not that the guy hasn't properly shown her he's interested, or even that it's totally out of his hands because he's just not her type. No, it's that she just isn't giving him a chance and she just can't see how perfect they are for each other. So please, cut it out. No more friend zones. If you like a girl, then do something about it. If she doesn't reciprocate, then just pack up and move on. There are way too many fish in the sea to get discouraged, and there is nothing wrong with having friends.
think this might cause a shit storm I think a Game of Thrones meme would be appropriate, however I'm not very meme savy. I've never been friend zoned so I can't comment on wether it's fact or fiction.
I don't think the implication behind "friendzone" is that no relationship can come from being friends so much as sometimes, becoming close can form a relationship more associated with a sibling or close friend there by making that situation less likely to blossom into a romantic equation.
WiccaVamp: I don't think the implication behind "friendzone" is that no relationship can come from being friends so much as sometimes, becoming close can form a relationship more associated with a sibling or close friend there by making that situation less likely to blossom into a romantic equation.
Bah I've dated my "sister" before (That came out creepier than needed). Sure it might be less likely for a relationship to blossom from a "sibling" style friendship but it has happened. Unfortunately once a relationship reaches that point, there's this distinct lack of "feeling each other out" period in the relationship. Like it's catapulted to a serious relationship where the both of you know each and every quirk about each other.
OT: I really don't understand this whole push in the friendzone topic recently. I saw it a while back before I even re-visited the escapist after a long hiatus. I know that people believe it exists but you've pretty much hit the nail on the head @Lalani.
The only thing I could add is, I've used the friend zone as an excuse for utterly horrible rejections before.
seriously do you people not see the same thread pop up over and over and over and over again? can't you get your point across there? so many repeat threads.....ugh
A good friend could become a partner, and asking someone out as an acquaintance could work, too. The thing about "Friendzone" that just kills me is when the supposed friendzone victim was never honest about their intentions. You're going along as a friend, and then all the sudden they apparently have had a crush on you and the other person resents the fact that you don't want to date them. Of course you don't have to go around announcing that you have romantic interests towards everyone in question, but if you are approaching a relationship with another person with romance in the forfront of your intent... Then was your acts of apparent friendship ever sincere at all? Love blooming on a battlefield from a friendship takes two special people whose bond evolves from friend to romantic partners. If you're jumping the shark and are all over the romance part when the other is still at the "I like to hang out at the coffee shop with this person" stage, how is there supposed to be any growth between you? You can't just throw dedication at someone and expect that they'll just go fully reciprocating it. That's not a good relationship. That's a form of unhealthy, passive control.
Why bother with this? I don't think it exists either, but it's been covered so many times before and no one around here seems to have been complaining about it recently. If the topic has died away, isn't that a success for those of us who don't think it exists?
I'm fairly certain that this topic has been covered exhaustively. If I weren't so bored of this subject, I would do the thing that I do with the words and the links to let you know that the topic is pretty well tried and tired.
Instead, I'll just mostly agree and leave you with
WiccaVamp: I don't think the implication behind "friendzone" is that no relationship can come from being friends so much as sometimes, becoming close can form a relationship more associated with a sibling or close friend there by making that situation less likely to blossom into a romantic equation.
Bah I've dated my "sister" before (That came out creepier than needed). Sure it might be less likely for a relationship to blossom from a "sibling" style friendship but it has happened. Unfortunately once a relationship reaches that point, there's this distinct lack of "feeling each other out" period in the relationship. Like it's catapulted to a serious relationship where the both of you know each and every quirk about each other.
OT: I really don't understand this whole push in the friendzone topic recently. I saw it a while back before I even re-visited the escapist after a long hiatus. I know that people believe it exists but you've pretty much hit the nail on the head @Lalani.
The only thing I could add is, I've used the friend zone as an excuse for utterly horrible rejections before.
Notice I never stated that it was impossible, I said less likely. I'm in a serious relationship with my best friend of 10 years and its great so clearly I know its possible, however I do reiterate that i can see the less likely aptitude of going after someone you consider family. But the "friendzone" seems to imply that it's a place where girls put guys they already don't see as anything else into, and it associates more with the implication that girls want a guy more take charge and bad boyish which is really not the case in most situations in my opinion.
Notice I never stated that it was impossible, I said less likely. I'm in a serious relationship with my best friend of 10 years and its great so clearly I know its possible, however I do reiterate that i can see the less likely aptitude of going after someone you consider family. But the "friendzone" seems to imply that it's a place where girls put guys they already don't see as anything else into, and it associates more with the implication that girls want a guy more take charge and bad boyish.
Quite aware that you didn't state that it was an impossibility (though I agree that it's an improbability that people who are super close date).
I wonder though, can a girl be in a guy's "friendzone" or is the "friendzone" exclusive to guys?
Aside: Why can't they call it the friend pasture because that's what it seems like.
"Well you're too good of a friend to date. So I'm going to take you out of the meat packing plant and put you out to pasture."
Notice I never stated that it was impossible, I said less likely. I'm in a serious relationship with my best friend of 10 years and its great so clearly I know its possible, however I do reiterate that i can see the less likely aptitude of going after someone you consider family. But the "friendzone" seems to imply that it's a place where girls put guys they already don't see as anything else into, and it associates more with the implication that girls want a guy more take charge and bad boyish.
Quite aware that you didn't state that it was an impossibility (though I agree that it's an improbability that people who are super close date).
I wonder though, can a girl be in a guy's "friendzone" or is the "friendzone" exclusive to guys?
Aside: Why can't they call it the friend pasture because that's what it seems like.
"Well you're too good of a friend to date. So I'm going to take you out of the meat packing plant and put you out to pasture."
I think girls can be in the "friendzone" too, In fact I know a few who have been.
And Friend pasture is a much better term, you should coin that and make it a thing lol.
I agree OP the best way to deal with this issue is to just lay your cards bare. And if the guy/gal doesn't like you, move on. However, you shouldn't stop being friends with them over that, and you should never ever be friends with someone just because you intend to sleep with them. There's a word for that type of person, "douche".
I only wish I had a proper understanding of that when I was a stupid hormonally driven teenager. Might've made those years less depressing.
However, you shouldn't stop being friends with them over that.
Why not? I mean, if person A has every right to say "I don't like you that way, so it won't work out", then why doesn't person B have the right to say "Fair enough, but I don't feel this will work out as a friendship either" and walk away, at least temporarily?
Or rather, why is rejecting person B's feeling "okay", but rejecting person A's feelings is "douchey"? Let the both decide for themselves.
Girls have the right to not "like-like" a guy (and vise-versa), understanding this is what being a friend is all about. And if one cannot accept that it's their problem, a friend does not owe you for being friends.
However, you shouldn't stop being friends with them over that.
Why not? I mean, if person A has every right to say "I don't like you that way, so it won't work out", then why doesn't person B have the right to say "Fair enough, but I don't feel this will work out as a friendship either" and walk away, at least temporarily?
Or rather, why is rejecting person B's feeling "okay", but rejecting person A's feelings is "douchey"? Let the both decide for themselves.
Fair point. I think I was more strongly relating my other point, the one where someone is only being friends with someone else to get into their pants, which I do think is "douchey", to the above mentioned one.
Both people should decide for themselves in that situation. But to me, it just seems a shame to stop a friendship over something like that. Just because it doesn't work out in a romantic sense, I don't think that means you should lose a friend too. But I'm speaking as someone who doesn't have much experience with that particular subject, so I don't really know what it's like when you're in the heat of that moment.
Lilani: If you've been on the Internet for more than a few hours, I'm sure you've probably heard something about this mysterious "friend zone" so many guys apparently get trapped in. As a female, and having spent most of my life around a LOT of females who have been in a LOT of relationships (most of them in high school, mind) I find this theory quite baffling. I mean usually the stereotypes about guys and girls and relationships are based in SOME sort of logic or plausible event, but this is utter nonsense. And I think I've figured why.
It's always nice when one is able to get the story from "both sides" so to speak. You do know that people are far more likely to over-emphasize things when their feelings are involved right? That, coupled with the fact that people don't like to be the source of their problems gives us what you seem to hate so fervently. People love playing the victim.
And I think that's the other thing that gets on my nerves about this--it shifts all the blame to the girl. It's not that the guy hasn't properly shown her he's interested, or even that it's totally out of his hands because he's just not her type. No, it's that she just isn't giving him a chance and she just can't see how perfect they are for each other.
I can certainly see why you think the friend-zone paints the woman in a...less than favourable light. I don't think that it's so much blaming the female as it is pointlessly whining. Okay, so, right now I'm not operating at my best and my thoughts seem to refuse transcription. I do believe that the friend-zone exists, but in a different way than you perceive it. Well, that's not exactly what I mean. Goodness, I give up. I'll most likely stop by at a more reasonable hour as I am actually interested in this topic.
Sidenote: I cannot begin to thank you enough for your post. In this instance, I am not referring to the content, I mean the presentation. I didn't find a single spelling or grammar error and I was able to read it in its entirety with ease: you know, the way it should be. Too often am I disappointed in how others present deep thought or things similar. People don't seem to care anymore about things like spelling and grammar. I guess I just like to complain a lot but thank you for not giving me a reason this time. I'm rambling now, my apologies. Good night.
It annoys me when people say "Oh, I've been friendzoned" and then completely stop talking to/trying it with the girl. Seriously, oh no, she likes you as a friend, why not work at it and make it a bit more obvious that you like her. I know its scary, especially if you dont want to ruin the friendship you have, but you need to find a way of telling her you like her without making it awkward whilst also having the ability to get over it and move on if you do get brushed off.
But, in my opinion, if you're one of her best friends, you may not be brushed off, and probably have a better chance than the people she doesnt know.
Oh god. It's not that you're wrong op, and you have very good intentions, I'm sure, but we've had this over and over, with the OP always forgetting the same point;
Rejection f***ing hurts.
Now, this doesn't excuse the friend zone, but these kind of posts are always so very harsh. Just have a little understanding, us men try to keep up the illusion that we don't feel negative emotions, aside from perhaps anger when it's funny or it intimidates people, but we do feel emotional pain, and it hurts like a b**** to be rejected, especially if it's the several time with no successes. It's not only that, but it's the shame. Often you see that everyone around you has succeeded where you failed.
And you've got to understand the desperation of some of these people. The ones who have been rejected over and over and over. They just can't understand that they're too ugly to ever be wanted. Let me tell you as an abomination myself, that's one hell of a mental wall to climb over, to insult yourself everytime you get that stupid little thought that you could be who she wants, to remind yourself that for you, it's simply not to be and never will be. Once you accept it, and it'll take years, it gets easier, but I'll be honest, every now and again, I still get desperate, maybe when drunk I decide to try and pick up some poor girl who's probably horrified at the sight of me. It's selfish, I know, but nigh on impossible to resist forever.
So please, you are completely right, and I'm sure you have the best of intentions, but just have a little understanding for how much that situation hurts.
OP and Erana, thank you for two honest, well-written posts.
As a married woman, I don't have a lot of experience with this subject anymore, but your wisdom rings true with me.
I find most posts from "friend-zoned" boys sound extremely entitled. I have a feeling that those who are dismissing the original post are those who find the truth hard to take.
I always assumed the friendzone was what happens when a guy/girl asks a girl/guy out and she/he gives him/her the "I just want to be friends" line.
My only problem with the friendzone situation is the huge negative stigma placed on the party that asks the girl/guy out if they don't want to be friends. I often hear lines like
"You don't want to be her friend now? So you just wanted to sleep with her? You (insert nasty word here)"
From what I've seen, the asking party is seeking romantic interest, if the other person can't provide why should they hang around in a relationship that ends up (90% of the time) being beneficial for only one member. The asker only wanted a romantic relationship and it ended up being a fruitless effort.
Some people lose contact with their ex's because they couldn't provide on a romantic level, the situations practically the same.
Notice I never stated that it was impossible, I said less likely. I'm in a serious relationship with my best friend of 10 years and its great so clearly I know its possible, however I do reiterate that i can see the less likely aptitude of going after someone you consider family. But the "friendzone" seems to imply that it's a place where girls put guys they already don't see as anything else into, and it associates more with the implication that girls want a guy more take charge and bad boyish.
Quite aware that you didn't state that it was an impossibility (though I agree that it's an improbability that people who are super close date).
I wonder though, can a girl be in a guy's "friendzone" or is the "friendzone" exclusive to guys?
A girl can. I've placed a few there myself. That's purely because i'm secretly dating my ex who everybody hates though :P
Lilani: There's a book by a guy named Chad Eastham, and in it he gave what I think is about the most accurate comparison of girl and guy's minds. Guys are like waffles. Everything in their mind is in totally separate compartment from all the other parts. This is why guys are often better at not being emotionally attached about sex than women are. Their sex drive and their desire for a single, dedicated mate are quite detached from each other (not always, and I realize that's broad, but compared to most women you have to admit most guys just do that better).
Now, the mind of a girl is more like spaghetti. Everything is all mixed and intermingled, one thing leading to the next and another and another thing. This is why girls tend to multitask better, can talk about a million things for hours on end, and have no problem continuing such conversations into the bathroom and back. "Bathroom? Whatever, it's just a more private place to chat!" There's less of a barrier there. Peeing and talking just isn't that big of a deal. There's no barrier (though being able to use stalls does help that, I suppose).
"Most accurate comparison"? Waffles and spaghetti? I'm sorry but that's one of the stupidest analogies I've ever heard. Girls aren't even better at multitasking. No one can multitask effectively. Human brains just aren't designed for it. And no, peeing and talking isn't multitasking.
The only thing that pisses me off more than guys saying "Girls are like this" is girls rocking up and saying "No! Girls are like this!" Girls are people. Stop trying to make wild generalisations based on gender. There is more variation between individuals of each gender than there is between the genders themselves.
Also, you're a bit late on the bandwagon. The friendzone thing has been pretty much done to death already.
Aw, for real, the friend-zone thread again? "I rejected you first, but when you rejected me back I got all butthurt about it, and called you a jerk." < does this not sum up everyone of these threads?
If it's cool for you to reject their romantic advances why is it so uncool for them to reject your friendship? There are these things called "feelings" that men have, and since rejection hurts these previously mentioned feelings they may not want to be your best buddy anymore.
Same is true for reverse genders etc, although it does seem to be a bigger problem in some males (at least from my experience)
One thing that sort of irritates me is how some people have the expectation that an individual will want to remain friends with them either before attempting to get a relationship, or after.
The only thing that pisses me off more than guys saying "Girls are like this" is girls rocking up and saying "No! Girls are like this!" Girls are people. Stop trying to make wild generalisations based on gender. There is more variation between individuals of each gender than there is between the genders themselves.
Yeah, I want the OP to apologize for this. After all, there arent any things two members of a gender likely have in common. No, not at all. Its not like all women have vaginas. Its not like theres a standard to how the brain works and everyone who falls out of that standard is actually retarded.
Nah. Everyones completely different. People who study psychology could learn a lot from you.
The concept of the "friend zone" is based on the situation of a guy likes a girl but she doesn't seem to be reciprocating. Meaning, the guy is running on the assumption that the girl does like him, she just hasn't realized it yet.
I disagree here. Your bang on with your first sentence were guy likes girl but girl isn't reciprocating but i don't think all "nice guys" think that she somehow likes him she just hasn't realised. Speaking from experience, most nice guys have no idea if the girl likes them back or not, after all how they can they tell? Most nice guys are in their mid-teens, they're still learning the ropes of the dating game, and don't forget that in high school girls are socially more mature than guys. When the nice guy's talking to and being nice to this girl the girl in questions obviously going to be nice back to him, the guy's going to be thinking "oh she likes me because she said this!".....or, "she doesn't like me because she did this". The nice guy's left clueless, hope against hope, that she likes him.
In the end you get fed up with this double guessing of her feelings, ask her out and then your teenage confidence get's destroyed. Why do guy's do this approach? Well, what else is a guy in highschool going to do if he finds a girl he likes? He has to sum up the courage to approach her, get to know her her to find out if she's right for him and if she actually likes him back (this is where nice guys come stuck) and from that basis find the courage to ask her out. The onus is on the guy to approach the girl, impress her and ask her out. That is demanding a lot from young guys, who only a few years into puberty, socially two to three years behind girls in maturity, and are still learning how dating works. The most logical approach is to make friends with a girl, be nice to her because that's what nice guys are, and hope that niceness will pay off.
The nice guy phenomena is the result of masculine gender norms dictating that guys have to approach and impress a girl- and for young teenage boys i think this is simply asking a bit too much of them.
manic_depressive13: The only thing that pisses me off more than guys saying "Girls are like this" is girls rocking up and saying "No! Girls are like this!" Girls are people. Stop trying to make wild generalisations based on gender. There is more variation between individuals of each gender than there is between the genders themselves.
Yeah, I want the OP to apologize for this. After all, there arent any things two members of a gender likely have in common. No, not at all. Its not like all women have vaginas. Its not like theres a standard to how the brain works and everyone who falls out of that standard is actually retarded.
Nah. Everyones completely different. People who study psychology could learn a lot from you.
You are either deliberately misrepresenting my post or you need to go back to primary school to study comprehension.
I didn't say that members of each gender have nothing in common with each other. I said that the differences in the mental processes of each gender are so remarkably insignificant as to make classifications based on gender absurd and inappropriate. For example, to claim that boys are more visual learners while girls are auditory learners (as people have tried to claim in the past) is simply fallacious because you would get more variation between individual girls and individual boys than you would between 'girls' and 'boys'. By extension, to claim that boys think like waffles while girls think like spaghetti is equally erroneous.
But don't feel bad. Despite your complete failure to understand what I had written, I'm certain you tried very hard and you ought to give yourself a pat on the back.
Lilani: There's a book by a guy named Chad Eastham, and in it he gave what I think is about the most accurate comparison of girl and guy's minds. Guys are like waffles. Everything in their mind is in totally separate compartment from all the other parts. This is why guys are often better at not being emotionally attached about sex than women are. Their sex drive and their desire for a single, dedicated mate are quite detached from each other (not always, and I realize that's broad, but compared to most women you have to admit most guys just do that better).
Now, the mind of a girl is more like spaghetti. Everything is all mixed and intermingled, one thing leading to the next and another and another thing. This is why girls tend to multitask better, can talk about a million things for hours on end, and have no problem continuing such conversations into the bathroom and back. "Bathroom? Whatever, it's just a more private place to chat!" There's less of a barrier there. Peeing and talking just isn't that big of a deal. There's no barrier (though being able to use stalls does help that, I suppose).
"Most accurate comparison"? Waffles and spaghetti? I'm sorry but that's one of the stupidest analogies I've ever heard. Girls aren't even better at multitasking. No one can multitask effectively. Human brains just aren't designed for it. And no, peeing and talking isn't multitasking.
The only thing that pisses me off more than guys saying "Girls are like this" is girls rocking up and saying "No! Girls are like this!" Girls are people. Stop trying to make wild generalisations based on gender. There is more variation between individuals of each gender than there is between the genders themselves.
Also, you're a bit late on the bandwagon. The friendzone thing has been pretty much done to death already.
This.
I was going to comment on that part, but I gave up on it. But yeah, coming back with a different stereotype is quite annoying. And googling Chad Eastham and his book doesn't really inspire me to trust this. It's not like it's some kind of acamedic book.
We were so close to breaking free of this stupid topic for a while! Why'd you have to go and do that, OP?! People can't help who they're attracted to, we all know that. We don't need yet another thread which will inevitably devolve into two basic arguments.
The first will be "Well if a guy was a true friend he'd suck it up and be there for me! Clearly he was just in it for sex, can't possibly be that it's kind of a bummer to hang out with someone you like or anything." And the second argument will be "Well I put the work in so clearly I deserve some sex. What's free will? Some kind of salad?"
Both arguments are equally nonsensical and by making this thread you're perpetuating them.
Lilani: If you've been on the Internet for more than a few hours, I'm sure you've probably heard something about this mysterious "friend zone" so many guys apparently get trapped in. If you haven't, the basic theory is this: If you are friends with a girl you like, she will not notice or consider your interest because you are friends. In her mind, you are a friend and ONLY a friend, never to be considered as anything else.
I mean usually the stereotypes about guys and girls and relationships are based in SOME sort of logic or plausible event, but this is utter nonsense. And I think I've figured why. The way I see it, the friend zone is based on three misconceptions about women and relationships.
So in short, I feel like this "friend zone" is nothing more the invention of insecure guys who either don't understand how relationships work, or can't get up the gumption to get up and do something about the girl they are pining over.
You are misunderstanding one fundamental premise, and that is that there is a difference between the way men see women and the way women see men. Of the points you raised, two is irrelevant, 3 you are absolutely correct on and 1 is where this issue lies and the reason that the friend-zone does exist. This video kinda demonstrates the point.
I hope that I have not cheapened your excellent argument with the above but wanted to highlight this. You are right that it is not her fault if she simply doesn't feel that way about him. But "if only she could see themselves the way he did", that is simply how men feel about women. Asking them to stop that is no different than asking you to change your instinctual feelings toward a particular guy.
Some points to consider: - This changes as people get older and friends get married. It becomes easier to see a woman as a friend when you're both unavailable. Teenage passions and hormones also complicate what might have otherwise been a friendship. If an available member of the opposite sex is interested in us, it's only another step to becoming more than friends. - Women are inconsistent (men are too, but that is irrelevant for this discussion). Because attraction has so many variables, it gives rise to situations where one man may succeed where another has failed using the same approach with the same woman. This is because we're humans, with emotions that are organic and inexplicable. - Men will almost always consider any available woman as a potential mate, even if she is a friend. It's when she doesn't reciprocate that he's been "friend zoned". This can be hard for the man to deal with if he has genuine feelings for her (ie. not a fickle crush or simple lust).
The "friend-zone" is just the name given to a phenomena that comes in-fact in many forms. It is at it's most basic level, a rejection of a person's romantic and sexual interest. Indirectly it can be compared to a man breaking up with his girlfriend (or vice versa) for whatever reason. She has feelings of attraction, love, desire, etc which he has rejected and no longer has those feelings for her. That is difficult to deal with, painful and takes time. It's a sign of maturity that men and women can and do deal with it however.
We were so close to breaking free of this stupid topic for a while! Why'd you have to go and do that, OP?! People can't help who they're attracted to, we all know that. We don't need yet another thread which will inevitably devolve into two basic arguments.
The first will be "Well if a guy was a true friend he'd suck it up and be there for me! Clearly he was just in it for sex, can't possibly be that it's kind of a bummer to hang out with someone you like or anything." And the second argument will be "Well I put the work in so clearly I deserve some sex. What's free will? Some kind of salad?"
Both arguments are equally nonsensical and by making this thread you're perpetuating them.
I am on the complete opposite spectrum of that friendship theory. I feel like the best relationships come from friendships. Honestly, I don't know if I'd want to date someone if I wasn't friends with them first.
But, then they run into trouble because asking out a girl who you're a total stranger to is rather creepy on her end
And my first boyfriend started out as a friend. We met each other in October of that year, I realized I liked him around February, and around April he caught on and we got together. It didn't work out, but we had fun and left on friendly terms.
and there lies the problem.
you get friends with a girl because you are interested in her in any way(funny, smart and/or attractive).
most inhabitants of the friend zone do not have a problem to be friends with the girl they like. it means that they can be closer to her *creepyness level rises* so its a good start.
the problem with the friend zone is that you want more but cant get more than just friendship. you can never escape your relationsship status with her. and to make matters worse the girl you like tries to cheer you up sometimes
which only fuel your deluded mind.
and so you spend your time thinking it might click inside her head, she realises that you are all she ever searched for and stops talking about billy bob whatever, all the time. in short you get some kind of obsession. which ends up in frustation, tears and [s]a dead hooker[s/] loneliness. thats the concept of the friend zone.
If you've been on the Internet for more than a few hours, I'm sure you've probably heard something about this mysterious "friend zone" so many guys apparently get trapped in. If you haven't, the basic theory is this: If you are friends with a girl you like, she will not notice or consider your interest because you are friends. In her mind, you are a friend and ONLY a friend, never to be considered as anything else. There's even a meme based on the theory, Friend Zone Fiona (a bit of adult language in there, look out).
As a female, and having spent most of my life around a LOT of females who have been in a LOT of relationships (most of them in high school, mind) I find this theory quite baffling. I mean usually the stereotypes about guys and girls and relationships are based in SOME sort of logic or plausible event, but this is utter nonsense. And I think I've figured why. The way I see it, the friend zone is based on three misconceptions about women and relationships.
1. ANY girl you like will like you back if given the opportunity.
The concept of the "friend zone" is based on the situation of a guy likes a girl but she doesn't seem to be reciprocating. Meaning, the guy is running on the assumption that the girl does like him, she just hasn't realized it yet. Guys, I have some bad news for you. Just because you like a girl, it doesn't mean she's going to like you back. I don't care how well you know her, I don't care how well she knows you, I don't care how much you think you were made for each other. That's just not how it works. Relationships are a two way street--she has to like you just as much as you like her. And, believe it or not, it is very possible for you to be head over heels for someone, and they be totally disinterested. Trust me, that's the short version of the all stories of my crushes in high school, and I've seen many a friend join me in it. That's probably why they're called "crushes."
2. Girls do not have the ability to view friends as potential boyfriends.
There's a book by a guy named Chad Eastham, and in it he gave what I think is about the most accurate comparison of girl and guy's minds. Guys are like waffles. Everything in their mind is in totally separate compartment from all the other parts. This is why guys are often better at not being emotionally attached about sex than women are. Their sex drive and their desire for a single, dedicated mate are quite detached from each other (not always, and I realize that's broad, but compared to most women you have to admit most guys just do that better).
Now, the mind of a girl is more like spaghetti. Everything is all mixed and intermingled, one thing leading to the next and another and another thing. This is why girls tend to multitask better, can talk about a million things for hours on end, and have no problem continuing such conversations into the bathroom and back. "Bathroom? Whatever, it's just a more private place to chat!" There's less of a barrier there. Peeing and talking just isn't that big of a deal. There's no barrier (though being able to use stalls does help that, I suppose).
So in reality, girls are actually better at this than guys. Better at not putting things in such strict, separated boxes. Trust me: If she's available, she knows you, and she has the slightest inkling she might like you, then she's considered you as a possible date. The only thing that could keep her from thinking that is if she thinks you're not available (and even then that may not be a problem for her).
Also, here's a bit of "girl code" I'm going to let you in on. If you do outright tell a girl you like her, and she says she just wants to stay friends then that does NOT mean she hasn't considered it. That is her way of saying "I don't like you that way" without ruining your friendship with the harsh wording. It means exactly that--she wants to stay friends. She is not interested.
3. Relationships cannot sprout from friendships.
A lot of relationship threads pass through these forums, and one thing I see a lot of is this terminal fear of making friends with a girl before asking her out, all because of this mythical friend zone. But, then they run into trouble because asking out a girl who you're a total stranger to is rather creepy on her end. I am on the complete opposite spectrum of that friendship theory. I feel like the best relationships come from friendships. Honestly, I don't know if I'd want to date someone if I wasn't friends with them first. My brother and sister in law started out as friends. Now they've been together for more than 10 years, been married 3 of those years, and are about to build a house on some land they just bought.
And my first boyfriend started out as a friend. We met each other in October of that year, I realized I liked him around February, and around April he caught on and we got together. It didn't work out, but we had fun and left on friendly terms. But between February and April, there was a time when I guess you could say I was "friend zoned." We were going to see a movie with some friends, and he mentioned he was going to have trouble explaining to his parents that he was going to see a movie with a friend who was a girl, but not a girlfriend. Ouch, that stung. But I kept at him, finally made him aware of my feelings, and then he started chasing me back down. But, he didn't start making moves until he knew I liked him. And I understood that. He was a computer science major, not a psychic. And neither are women. If you've been working on a friend for a while and you're getting no response, just find a quiet place and outright tell her. I assure you, that is the fastest way to find out if there's going to be any reciprocation.
So in short, I feel like this "friend zone" is nothing more the invention of insecure guys who either don't understand how relationships work, or can't get up the gumption to get up and do something about the girl they are pining over. There may be situations similar to it, but it's not inescapable, and it is definitely not her fault. And I think that's the other thing that gets on my nerves about this--it shifts all the blame to the girl. It's not that the guy hasn't properly shown her he's interested, or even that it's totally out of his hands because he's just not her type. No, it's that she just isn't giving him a chance and she just can't see how perfect they are for each other. So please, cut it out. No more friend zones. If you like a girl, then do something about it. If she doesn't reciprocate, then just pack up and move on. There are way too many fish in the sea to get discouraged, and there is nothing wrong with having friends.