Why do people hate the army?

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chiefohara:

loc978:
when it comes down to UN troops, well...


That pretty much says what needs to be said.

However, the ineffectiveness of the UN's overarching strategy doesn't negate the personal sacrifices people make on their behalf. I know that better than most, since I carry lifelong crippling wounds from training, yet the injuries I received in combat (in Iraq, which ranks pretty high among the most ridiculously immoral wars in recent history) have healed quite completely. Not for the UN, mind you... but I understand the sacrifice.

That's a powerful image .... but why is there a lion eating a carcass in front of cattle in the left bottom corner of the photo?

Because that poor sumbitch was uselessly guarding a paddock full of animals for PETA? I honestly don't know, but I do know guys like that are more bored than I ever was guarding gates on training exercises for officers. Those motherfuckers just loved to waste my time.

Honestly the only issue I've had with them, aside from the occasionaly hooting dickhole who treats their uniform like a criticism shield, is that when their fellows do really, really fuck up, there never seems to be a lot of 'This man/woman is a disgrace for what they did and we no longer want them' or an issue gets blown out of proportion before their commanding officers can investigate it propperly and all sorts of shit goes down.

That guy a while ago (I think he was a Marine) who for some reason videotaped himself pissing on corpses. Now, I dig this guy isn't gonna feel too charitable about the people trying to shoot him, blow him up etc. Fair enough, but would it have killed the Marine Corps PR unit to have released a statement saying that this behaviour is unacceptable from our Marines and it will be investigated?

That might have calmed waters and then let his Commanding officer tear about a million strips off his hide or hand him over to the Military Police for a formal investigation and given the impression that as a professional force, these frat-boy antics are to be kept to a minimum.

I suppose the other thing is that Australians are different, we tend to be more sombre about our Armed Forces. We've always been proud of them, but it never reaches the same level of flag waving that is stereotypically seen in our American cousins.

On a related note, knowing we have many service members here, any of you lads in the Marines in that unit headed for Darwin?

I don't hate soldiers personally, I just hate wars in general. I guess if I were to hate anybody personally it would be guys who started the wars and sent out their armies.

Zhukov:
The army, eh?

Isn't that the organisation comprised entirely of people who volunteered for a job that involves either killing people or facilitating the killing of people at the behest of politicians?

Oh yeah.

I think you're getting them mixed up with assassins. The army does things like stabilising countries, protecting civilians, toppling tyrants etc.

Sarge034:
As for killing civilians... It is an unfortunate fact of life that there will be unintended casualties.

It's funny but I've been reading an awful lot of articles where the slaughter of civilians could hardly be considered "unintended".

But who am I kidding? You have made up your mind and nothing I can say will get you to reconsider.

Pretty much.

rhizhim:

chiefohara:
Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.

I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.

They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?

He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?

i think its mostly by things you read in the newspaper about the shit some retarded soldier did. which then makes the army shine in a not-so-good light.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2113410/US-soldier-kills-16-Afghan-civilians-deadly-shooting-rampage.html

http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/225590/57/New-Photos-Show-US-Soldiers-Posing-With-Dead-Afghan-Soldiers?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cbc%7Clarge

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/11/afghanistan-marines-urinating-video_n_1200324.html

they think they would look bad ass by doing it or that they would act some kind of revenge on them but in realitiy they are giving the enemies more reasons to hate them and plant more roadside bombs.

plus, due real events, movies and other media, whenever the army shows up you know something bad is going to happen and they most likely will shoot you on sight, by mistake or outright excecute you. so blame the media (not the news but video games and movies) and stupid soldiers that are putting the lives and honour of the other soldiers at risk

Not being disrespectful, but the Irish defence forces has very few instances of things like this. Not because we are better but because our guys don't get put under the same pressure and demands that the US military does. The soldier that killed 16 Afghan civilians was on his 3rd tour of duty and had a breakdown before that happened. Not excusing it, but from what i understand the US military is repeatedly putting people back into active service because they need the numbers, this guy shouldn't have been there in the first place.

As for the other instances, especially the arsehole with the puppy. Well they are just scumbags. Scumbags are unfortunately present in every walk of life.

The only incident i can recall where our guys were genuine arseholes is this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/01/military.uk

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0830/defence.html

I can't find a link following up with what happened to these guys, but i do know that they got stamped on quite hard.

My point is the army doesn't encourage or ignore these things, and people who do that are held in contempt by people in the military too.

chiefohara:

loc978:
when it comes down to UN troops, well...
Snip

That's a powerful image .... but why is there a lion eating a carcass in front of cattle in the left bottom corner of the photo?

Because this is essentially what the UN does: Showing presence while behind their backs people get killed.
Showing presence is all they do.

Sexy Devil:

chiefohara:
Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.

I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.

They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?

He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?

The minority of dumb-asses who do stupid crap overseas paint the entire defense force in a bad name just because people see what they want to see. Though a good indicator that the guy who argued with you is a dumb-ass who is to be ignored is that he appears to actually take the UN seriously.

thank you for the video

To be fair, a soldier is technically a mercenary, it's just more organised, you get paid to shoot people, if you join the army in a time of peace, and then a week afterwards Britain declares war on Sweden because why the hell not, you're not killing swedish soldiers because you hate them, or even because you believe they are a evil that must be stopped, it's because a man is paying you to shoot Swedish soldiers, sure, you can say it's because your a patriot, but then you're a mercenary who doesn't feel bad about it because it's for "insert home country here".

Dr. Mongo:

As a fellow german I have to point out that the democracy in Germany actually did last longer than 20 days after it was braught to this country in the late 1940s.
A fact for which I am very thankful, I must say.

Yeah. Good point. I think, this was mostly achieved by the Germans being tired of the Nazis and war itself. Also it was not a very different culture.

But when you look into Afghanistan, it's a completely different situation.
The Taliban are still up an bombing. The government is corrupt as shit.

When the allies marched into Germany they took out everyone who happened to be a Nazi. They really purged this country. Also quite a lot of German people weren't actually Nazis, they just had to keep silent in order of staying alive. So the support in the population for the NSDAP after being freed by the Allies was at best low.

The Taliban are not destroyed, like the NSDAP, they are still feared by kinda everyone in Afghanistan. Also the whole INFIDELS!!!!-deal. This is the cultural aspect.

Another aspect: Now they try to avoid having civilian casualties.
In WW2 they bombed the shit out of everything. People were actually scared of the occupying soldiers. Imagine a civilian attacking a GI in Germany. They would have killed him in splitsecodns.
Look at a civialian attacking a GI in Afghanistan. "You want tea or coffee in prison before you are released in 20 minutes?"

Financial Reasons - I'd love to us divert most of those 10's of billions or 100's of billions of dollars of spending towards health care, education, etc. If we didn't spend so much on military, everyone could benefit from a higher quality of life.

Ethical Reasons - I don't believe in wars solving problems. Especially the wars we choose to participate in. Why attack countries with access to fuel when other countries practice in genocide and we don't feel that is a greater threat to people's freedom. (yes, this is an extremely leading statement but I'm simply trying to illustrate the greater evil in my mind)

Recruitment - It bothers me that the military is largely formed by poverty and low income individuals. The people who are suffering most from the failings of our country are typically the ones dying to keep things from changing.

I freely admit that I'm ignorant when it comes to the reality of the military.

manic_depressive13:
It's funny but I've been reading an awful lot of articles where the slaughter of civilians could hardly be considered "unintended".

Was it an order or was it murder? A soldier is a person. Some people go bat shit insane. People who are NOT in the military kill people too. Or is a soldier going off and murdering people somehow become worse than a civilian going off and murdering people?

Pretty much.

Only fools deal in absolutes. Most soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen are people doing a job and trying to do it well. It is the minority that presents the bad image for everyone else.

Chasing-The-Light:
"Yeah, I respect them for what they do but I don't think what they're doing is right. I don't agree with it at all. I don't like it and I think it's stupid that they even join!"

Hey hey, it's my opinion! Yay!

That said I'm not gonna blame the troops for what they're doing because ultimately they didn't choose to go to war. I'm sure they'd rather get paid without getting shot at in the end. Also maybe it's not stupid that they join, but maybe it is a bit sad that people feel it's their only way to get stimulating, enjoyable work or, in some cases, any work at all. My friend recently applied for officer training but got rejected. I have to hide the fact that I'm really pleased he got rejected because he's my friend and I don't want him putting himself in danger like that but I still come off as a jerk.

One thing I fucking detest is the charity Help for Heroes. Ok, maybe not the charity itself, but I think that really the armed forces needs to taking fucking better care of its people. Frankly they should be taking account of the fact that people get wounded in war and budget fucking accordingly. Another one of my friends meanwhile, in the navy cadets, gets PAID for a weekend sports day. That is just disgusting. I find the fact that Help for Heroes even exists insulting. Whatever way you look at it, either the army is failing people who put their lives on the line for them or Help for Heroes is wasting money on people already being looked after.

*deep breath*

So yeah, I guess I don't have a problem with soldiers but I do have a problem with the armed forces.

Also, the RIDICULOUS number of career talks I have had from the army telling me to do engineering for them is absurd. Give me some space bro!

Sarge034:

manic_depressive13:
It's funny but I've been reading an awful lot of articles where the slaughter of civilians could hardly be considered "unintended".

Was it an order or was it murder? A soldier is a person. Some people go bat shit insane. People who are NOT in the military kill people too. Or is a soldier going off and murdering people somehow become worse than a civilian going off and murdering people?

Well... at least the civilians bullets weren't paid for by the taxpayer. Also it's recommended to keep an eye on the sanity of the people you hand guns to.

I personally don't like armies. Winning a war proves nothing other than superior capacity to win a war, it says nothing about the superiority of the nation whose army it is. I respect people who are in the army if and only if they can justify why they are in the army, what they are fighting for and why its necessary to fight for it. Basically, I respect people who have made an informed decision to fight for their country.

Agow95:
To be fair, a soldier is technically a mercenary, it's just more organised, you get paid to shoot people, if you join the army in a time of peace, and then a week afterwards Britain declares war on Sweden because why the hell not, you're not killing swedish soldiers because you hate them, or even because you believe they are a evil that must be stopped, it's because a man is paying you to shoot Swedish soldiers, sure, you can say it's because your a patriot, but then you're a mercenary who doesn't feel bad about it because it's for "insert home country here".

Wowowow. Britain wouldn't attack Sweden, you love us!

Funny though you took Sweden as an example, cause it WAS an good argument against what you wrote because of one thing: conscription. I was one of the last conscripted soldiers. I was technically forced into the army, and since I am not very fond of violence I was placed as and Engineer/Medic. I was given a very, very good medical education and learned a lot.

I believe that a conscripted army is superior to a professional army, since it is a peoples army, with normal boys and girls with normal lives. The military is one of the few jobs no-one in their right mind "wants" to be in, but it is a necessary evil. And when I was there I was glad I did it with guys that was somewhat skeptical to using gun and stupid order, rather than gung-ho machomen.

No we have a professional army, and from what I heard, the quality and quantity has gone down quiet a bit; too many soldiers that wants to fight, to few that wants to do a good job.

Also note that a conscripted army can't be used in foreign countries, but that not really a bad thing a believe. An army is for defence.

I don't hate the army because they just do their jobs so I can live happily without fear of being blown up. However, I do have my biases against the US military because of the whole warmongering culture that surrounds it but I bet rarely makes its way into the military itself. Luckily I'm in the UK where our army is small, but better trained and worthy of such respect.

Sarge034:

manic_depressive13:
It's funny but I've been reading an awful lot of articles where the slaughter of civilians could hardly be considered "unintended".

Was it an order or was it murder? A soldier is a person. Some people go bat shit insane. People who are NOT in the military kill people too. Or is a soldier going off and murdering people somehow become worse than a civilian going off and murdering people?

You don't think dehumanising the enemy has anything to do with it? Placing people in dangerous and stressful situations? Handing them weapons and telling them it's fine to kill people if they feel threatened? Creating a system where you're almost guaranteed to either be acquitted of your crimes or given a negligible sentence?

Only fools deal in absolutes. Most soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen are people doing a job and trying to do it well. It is the minority that presents the bad image for everyone else.

I'm not saying that every member of the military is invariably bad. I'm just saying that the way the military is currently organised and run, it's far more destructive than constructive. That's not dealing in absolutes any more than you can say coming to a conclusion about anything is dealing in absolutes. I have seen enough evidence to draw my own conclusion and you're correct in saying that it's unlikely you will be able to present anything that will change my mind.

"Gawrsh, why do people hate state-funded-and-trained killers? I just don't get it."

That's kind of how your post comes off to me. You can argue all you like, but the army's function comes down to two things - deterrence or killing. Sure, you can make the argument for 'but it's for self-defense'. Sure. In some cases, that's correct. Self-defense from someone else's army. And while it does differ from country to country, look at the US. Look at them. They're using their army to stomp all over developing nations.

But I don't hate the army. Armies won WW2 and removed german oppressors from my country. I just ain't comfortable with it, is all.

Varies from person to person and from army to army. A Chinese student will have different views to an American survivalist.

I'm not hostile towards the Danish army, though I would feel conflicted joining them as a republican when they're a fervently monarchist institution.

Grey Day for Elcia:
Soldiers are trained murderers and the military is a war mongering hate machine that swallows lives and shits out money and lies for its people to swallow, so they can better sleep at night while the government sends their children to foreign lands they have no right to be in, to slaughter its inhabitants and/or be slaughtered themselves.

That's pretty much why.

Wow. Someone's jimmies have been rustled.

I have no problem with soldiers for the UN/NATO but anyone fighting for their country I have a problem with. I don't believe in patriotism, it is unfounded, every country has a disgusting past and as such killing people in it's name is not honourable, however fighting for a world organisation to keep the peace makes sense to me.

Dr. Mongo:
As a fellow german I have to point out that the democracy in Germany actually did last longer than 20 days after it was braught to this country in the late 1940s.
A fact for which I am very thankful, I must say.

I know you're probably just referring to the removal of Hitler and that regime, so I apologise in advance but...

Just for my own peace of mind, you're not implying that the allies introduced democracy to Germany? As in, for the first time?

I don't. I respect and am thankful for soldiers doing what I never could.

A Raging Emo:

Grey Day for Elcia:
Soldiers are trained murderers and the military is a war mongering hate machine that swallows lives and shits out money and lies for its people to swallow, so they can better sleep at night while the government sends their children to foreign lands they have no right to be in, to slaughter its inhabitants and/or be slaughtered themselves.

That's pretty much why.

Wow. Someone's jimmies have been rustled.

Your username makes that comment pretty funny, lol.

Grey Day for Elcia:

A Raging Emo:

Grey Day for Elcia:
Soldiers are trained murderers and the military is a war mongering hate machine that swallows lives and shits out money and lies for its people to swallow, so they can better sleep at night while the government sends their children to foreign lands they have no right to be in, to slaughter its inhabitants and/or be slaughtered themselves.

That's pretty much why.

Wow. Someone's jimmies have been rustled.

Your username makes that comment pretty funny, lol.

I'm glad you think so.

I hope you were being sarcastic in your initial post.

Capctha: Al Capone

A Raging Emo:

Grey Day for Elcia:

A Raging Emo:

Wow. Someone's jimmies have been rustled.

Your username makes that comment pretty funny, lol.

I'm glad you think so.

I hope you were being sarcastic in your initial post.

Capctha: Al Capone

Not even a little sarcastic, lol.

The issue is not with the soldiers, it's with the leadership. The marketing, too, is something that irks me. The ads on TV seem to be catering towards the "naive FPS-player" market, telling kids that being in the military is exactly like video games. I have no interest in joining the military whatsoever, but I definitely understand that joining is a serious commitment and a major life choice. The fact that someone would want to trivialize its gravity in order to make it look "cool" is quite perturbing.

As long as something is gained, anything the military does is fine by me.

Grey Day for Elcia:

A Raging Emo:

Grey Day for Elcia:
Your username makes that comment pretty funny, lol.

I'm glad you think so.

I hope you were being sarcastic in your initial post.

Capctha: Al Capone

Not even a little sarcastic, lol.

Wow. Just... wow.

image

Roggen Bread:
Yeah. Good point. I think, this was mostly achieved by the Germans being tired of the Nazis and war itself. Also it was not a very different culture.

But when you look into Afghanistan, it's a completely different situation.
The Taliban are still up an bombing. The government is corrupt as shit.

The government is corrupt, yes, but the Taliban isn't much of a force nowdays. You have any number of petty warlords, tribal factions and criminal groups with lots of weapons fighting each other and ISAF troops (you could argue that the government is just one more of them), but they aren't the Taliban as existed before the war.

Oh, and they didn't purge Germany of Nazis that thoroughly. Very few of them were prosecuted for war crimes, a number of them ended up overseas, and there were issues with the history of the people involved in the 1972 games.

Roggen Bread:
Another aspect: Now they try to avoid having civilian casualties.
In WW2 they bombed the shit out of everything. People were actually scared of the occupying soldiers. Imagine a civilian attacking a GI in Germany. They would have killed him in splitsecodns.
Look at a civialian attacking a GI in Afghanistan. "You want tea or coffee in prison before you are released in 20 minutes?"

Bullshit. A civilian attacking a soldier isn't treated as a civilian. ISAF troops aren't supposed to kill civilians for the hell of it, but they are allowed to kill civilians as an unfortunate side effect of their mission, to say nothing of killing people attacking them.

As a guy who spent 12 years in the British Army my personal opinion on people who hate the military is thus....

I couldn't give a fuck.

I did a job I enjoyed and had a great life, made great friends and it helped me meet my wife. I got to travel the world and got paid for it.

I didn't join up out of patriotic ideals. I joined up because I did shit at school (I was hanging with the wrong crowd, drinking and fighting) and would have either ended up in jail or dead if I carried on down the road I was walking. There was zero career prospects in the cesspit town I was living in and the Army was a way out.

I did some physical education courses in the last couple of years of my service and now i'm a personal trainer who works for himself and earns quite a good chunk of money out of it.

I'm 32, I own my house and 2 cars. We have 3 holidays a year and have enough savings to retire in a few more years when our kids fly the coup.

The chances of me giving a ferrets testicle about random forum dwellers opinions on my time as a soldier are slim to fucking none.

aba1:

Wolverine18:
Generally I think such idiots speak from ignorance and sterotypes.

aba1:
Realistically you shouldn't need a army to begin with.

You really believe that? LMAO.

Sure I mean what is your country doing that makes people hate you so much they actively want to kill you?

Most wars in history were not caused becaus people hated you, they were caused because you have something they wanted.

I mean sure I can see defense but a huge army set in place for invasion is hardly defensive.

And there you go, you defeated your own original argument. You can argue about the size of an army, but its foolish to claim you don't need one.

ReSpawn:
I know you're probably just referring to the removal of Hitler and that regime, so I apologise in advance but...

Just for my own peace of mind, you're not implying that the allies introduced democracy to Germany? As in, for the first time?

No need for apology. And I am aware of the Weimarian Republic. I was referring to the removal of the Nazis, sorry for not making that clear.

I would like to say that I don't agree with the US's current military actions. I believe that the current war in iraq could be avoided and that the less recent Vietnam was one of the worst decisions in US history. However, I do respect the soldiers that are fighting. I come from a family of pacifists but I believe that in some cases, war is unavoidable (WW1 and WW2).

Rawne1980:
As a guy who spent 12 years in the British Army my personal opinion on people who hate the military is thus....

I couldn't give a fuck.

I did a job I enjoyed and had a great life, made great friends and it helped me meet my wife. I got to travel the world and got paid for it.

I didn't join up out of patriotic ideals. I joined up because I did shit at school (I was hanging with the wrong crowd, drinking and fighting) and would have either ended up in jail or dead if I carried on down the road I was walking. There was zero career prospects in the cesspit town I was living in and the Army was a way out.

I did some physical education courses in the last couple of years of my service and now i'm a personal trainer who works for himself and earns quite a good chunk of money out of it.

I'm 32, I own my house and 2 cars. We have 3 holidays a year and have enough savings to retire in a few more years when our kids fly the coup.

The chances of me giving a ferrets testicle about random forum dwellers opinions on my time as a soldier are slim to fucking none.

What section of the military were you serving in?

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