Agow95: To be fair, a soldier is technically a mercenary, it's just more organised, you get paid to shoot people, if you join the army in a time of peace, and then a week afterwards Britain declares war on Sweden because why the hell not, you're not killing swedish soldiers because you hate them, or even because you believe they are a evil that must be stopped, it's because a man is paying you to shoot Swedish soldiers, sure, you can say it's because your a patriot, but then you're a mercenary who doesn't feel bad about it because it's for "insert home country here".
...the biggest difference is that mercs get paid more, have better equipment and there's a larger barrier to entry. Being a soldier carries a certain amount of job security.
There's also the patriotism bullshit, but it never holds up under scrutiny. Captain America doesn't exist.
chiefohara: Not being disrespectful, but the Irish defence forces has very few instances of things like this. Not because we are better but because our guys don't get put under the same pressure and demands that the US military does.
That's not going to be the most of it. Most soldiers get lessons on dealing with stress, recognizing symptoms of psychological problems.
US soldier training is soldier 'this is rifle. bullets come out on that end. done.' They're only trained for combat and not much more.
For instance learning about how Afghan allegiances work? No way. With as a result that if you drop them in Afghanistan, they can't comprehend the people, everything is the great evil unknown and they stress a lot more as a result. If I'm in a village where the elder pledged his support and the majority tribe is loyal too, while there's no hostile warlords or something, I don't feel at risk at all. Why? Nobody who means anything is going to attack you, and if foreign fighters came, you'd notice by the village militia gathering or warnings sent to you asking that you take them on.
That makes it a lot more comfortable to be in any type of hostile place or warzone.
Still I think the being American in itself helps too. US culture is very uniform and conformistic. That leaves people less open to other systems of society and possibilities. The way religion is regarded in Afghanistan is just about the mortal enemy of everything I stand for. Yet, if someone tells me searching houses can be a grave offense if you intrude into the woman's part of the house, or even worse, charge in so fast you see them without a veil, that's a possibility that exists. For people raised with the idea that there's only one culture, the own culture... Not so much.
chiefohara: Not being disrespectful, but the Irish defence forces has very few instances of things like this. Not because we are better but because our guys don't get put under the same pressure and demands that the US military does.
That's not going to be the most of it. Most soldiers get lessons on dealing with stress, recognizing symptoms of psychological problems.
US soldier training is soldier 'this is rifle. bullets come out on that end. done.' They're only trained for combat and not much more.
For instance learning about how Afghan allegiances work? No way. With as a result that if you drop them in Afghanistan, they can't comprehend the people, everything is the great evil unknown and they stress a lot more as a result. If I'm in a village where the elder pledged his support and the majority tribe is loyal too, while there's no hostile warlords or something, I don't feel at risk at all. Why? Nobody who means anything is going to attack you, and if foreign fighters came, you'd notice by the village militia gathering or warnings sent to you asking that you take them on.
That makes it a lot more comfortable to be in any type of hostile place or warzone.
Still I think the being American in itself helps too. US culture is very uniform and conformistic. That leaves people less open to other systems of society and possibilities. The way religion is regarded in Afghanistan is just about the mortal enemy of everything I stand for. Yet, if someone tells me searching houses can be a grave offense if you intrude into the woman's part of the house, or even worse, charge in so fast you see them without a veil, that's a possibility that exists. For people raised with the idea that there's only one culture, the own culture... Not so much.
That's... not strictly true. Basic training is just that- basic. I had a lot of training as to the conflicts within Iraqi culture, a crash course in language and quite a bit of etiquette before I landed in Iraq... and I was just a helicopter tech.
For civilians, it's more true than not, but that's kind of a cultural isolation thing.
chiefohara: Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.
I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.
They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?
He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?
Me, I don't hate the army and I'm not ashamed of it, but to me they're just people doing their jobs, nothing more, nothing less, and certainly not heroes or inherently more valuable to the nation. When was the last time soldiers from your country (or mine for that matter) actually died in defense of their country? Probably WWII. It can be a very dangerous job, sure, and maybe underpaid (though I highly doubt it, as I've seen what benefits soldiers in many countries get beside their pay), but just a respectable job. I really doubt more than a few truly choose the job just because of patriotism (see how patriotic they are if you lower their pay), but more because of lack of money or lack of other education/qualifications (in my country anyway). Nothing wrong with that, and I have respect for people who choose that career, but I know jobs that are even less rewarding and less rewarded than being in the army.
Politics don't play a big role in my judgment of soldiers. I'm sure there are more than a few with very misguided views about the government and the job they're doing (bringing democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan? Are there still people who believe that?). But that doesn't make me judge soldiers, because there are stupid people everywhere. Patriotism has very little real value in this day and age, as the army has become a political and economic force, not one of protection for the nation. Whichever way you turn it, you're not protecting your country, you're protecting its interests.
I don't think people hate the army. I think they hate what they do Personally i respect each and every member of the British armed forces for the tough job they do But i hate everything about their profession. If the army was used for defence then sure, i'd be grand with it But at the minute we seem to be obsessed with forcing our personal moral standards and democracy on countries that are none of our fucking business. It's the interference, like we somehow know better than them and so need to help them change, that i hate. The army itself i have no problem with. It's how governments use them i object to
I'm certainly not against the army. I am, however, against the attitude that many people have about it. I hate how people treat it like it's some sort of holy work.
Overall, I'm against war and against the support of war, even as far as to support the army. An army is a tool that should only be used to defend your nation. And I don't see a whole lot of actual defense anymore.
manic_depressive13: Handing them weapons and telling them it's fine to kill people if they feel threatened?
I don't know about the US Army, but the rules of engagement in Afghanistan are incredibly strict for British troops, they definitely can't just shoot people who they think are threatening.
GundamSentinel: When was the last time soldiers actually died in defense of their country?
My feeling is, I know that soldiers usually mean well, but I really feel like they are simply being used by big corporations which are getting insanely rich through wars, especially in the Middle-East.
Yes, I know most soldiers hope to befriend the civilians and to bring them democracy and education, but the fact is you simply can't force someone into democracy and free speech. It took the western world hundreds of years, lives and tears. You simply can't expect them to think like you just because "it's better for them", even if it really is. Many people in this region are still being ruled by KINGS, and have no idea how an election would even work.
Moreover, I'd like to say I'm not talking about conspiracy theories when I'm talking about the coprorations : the fact is, the contracts for reconstructing Irak were signed before the bombs began to fall. They had already planned to rebuild civilian structures as well, which means the US had to bomb known civilian targets.
Finally, about soldiers at home, I have nothing agains them, when they aren't waving their guns into my face. What I mean is, I live in France, I have been going through the same subway station every day for years, and recently they have started putting military patrols in that station. I'm sorry, I know it's "for my own protection and all", but I simply don't feel safe when twenty dudes in military gear surround me without a word, push me against a wall and then proceed to simply ask me for my ID card. Sue me. This happened.
The thing is, soldiers are also simple human beings. Only with guns, which are known to make people do stupid things. During my identity check, this one guy, who was barely older than me (I wasn't even 18 at the time), aimed at me when I reached inside my bag to get my ID. WHAT ? What I mean is I was threatened to be SHOT by some guy for simply going through a place I go through every day of my life, in my own country.
My final point is, I this only happened once to me, for one reason : I'm white. I have seen countless persons being checked again and again, just because, of course, arab or black = terrorist. Now, how the hell do you think, say, a moderate muslim, who thinks all this "being opressed" thing terrorists flaunt about is exagerated, reacts when he is treated like a terrorist every fucking day ? You know about people who pirate games to fight agains draconian DRM ? Same thing here.
I know soldiers are trying to do good, but they simply shouldn't be used as a police force. Anywhere.
We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.
Meh. I can see why people hate the army. I used to. I have hated on armed forces since I was very young.
I was watching live coverage of the Iraq war. An America soldier was firing blind over the top of a wall. I just remember thinking "He is not aiming. Anyone could get hit. What the hell. That is dangerous" (I was... Christ, Its been a long time, I was young).
But now two of my friends have joined up, I very nearly joined the TA (And I might be doing so when I get to Uni, if I have the time) and I have started to see the good work "Our Boys" can do. Don't get me wrong, if I ever see the army deployed to the streets of London (Like people were stating should occur during the riots) then I would be one of the first to hit the streets in protest. But, by the by, the Army does a lot of good work. A lot of EXPENSIVE work. But, strangely, I am all for increasing our defence budget. Or just changing it around. I mean, I see no reason to have Trident. I see plenty of reason to upgrade the weaponry our boys are using.
But, well, Armies are expensive. Armies kill people. In a time of massive economic downturn (And, in the UK, Watching the Tory Cunts destroy the welfare state) I can understand why people are against the armed forces. To badly quote a Python sketch "Back home if I kill someone I go to prison, out here they give me a fucking medal" some people are just not ok with the whole "Shooting people in the face"
Personally?
I firmly believe that the UN charter needs to be massively expanded to cover firing in defence of civilians (They cannot do that right now, they can only fire in self defence. So as long as they are not under direct threat, they are not allowed to shoot people who are, purely for example, taking part in ethnic cleansing with machetes infront of them) and all UN nations should hand over their armed forces to the UN so it can actually start defending civilians. The DRC has been fucked up for too fucking long, it is about time for some martial law (Purely for example).
I mean, Nobody is going to try and invade Britain. Seriously. Unless we start using our boys as a peacekeeping force, what is the fucking point?
chiefohara: Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.
I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.
They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?
He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?
Because everyone is an edgy internet bad-ass these days and there's hardly anything 'edgier' than slating the army for doing their job and protecting us, all from the comfort of your armchair.
I know the difference between patriotism and nationalism, what I meant was that people that hate the army tend to view patriotism as nationalism. I should have been clearer.
The government is corrupt, yes, but the Taliban isn't much of a force nowdays. You have any number of petty warlords, tribal factions and criminal groups with lots of weapons fighting each other and ISAF troops (you could argue that the government is just one more of them), but they aren't the Taliban as existed before the war.
Oh, and they didn't purge Germany of Nazis that thoroughly. Very few of them were prosecuted for war crimes, a number of them ended up overseas, and there were issues with the history of the people involved in the 1972 games.
I'm no expert on the whole Afghanistan-Talbin buissness. All I read in the newspapers (that is, the serious ones, not the boulevard press) is, that the immense influence of the Taliban is making it hard to fight them efficiently. The population is scared, they believe, that the Taliban will rise to power very very quickly, after the ISAF is gone, and will punish, and already do, any collaborateurs.There was this one US-Military paper that was leaked just some weeks ago. It said, that they assume, a civil war will break out pretty fast, and the taliban will seize power again.
On the Germany buissness. Well of course they didn't. You cannot watch into everyone's head and arrest if Nazi. And there are issues with people's histories even TODAY. Just look at Günther Grass and his poem. It's like 3-4 weeks ago. But as a matter of fact, the Nazis vanished de facto from German politics. The party most to the right, that we tolerate here (and they've been struggling to ban it for decades) is the NPD. It is not even as right as the republicans are! It still is a bunch of brown scumbags. If they try to demonstrate with like 200 people there are THOUSANDS of people opposing them.
Bullshit. A civilian attacking a soldier isn't treated as a civilian. ISAF troops aren't supposed to kill civilians for the hell of it, but they are allowed to kill civilians as an unfortunate side effect of their mission, to say nothing of killing people attacking them.
Imagine a missile hitting, say, Khabul. 30 civ's die in the process. This would be a MAJOR scandal. Would you like me to post a picture from Cologne or Dresden after the war? Or statistics of civilian fatalaties? This is NOTHING. I am not saying, you should nuke down the whole country. But it is a completely different kind of warfare. And say what you will. It is less effective in inducing fear of opposing the attacking forces.
By attacking I did not mean someone shooting at a soldier, or assaulting with a knife. I'm talking of throwing a rotten egg, a rock or insulting them. If you did that to an american soldier in the late 40's you would have been in pretty fucking huge trouble.
This is something, that goes unpunished today. (Still not saying, they should just shoot anyone, who looks at them funny)
ablac: We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.
You have to undergo a lot of training and mental reconditioning first you know. 99% of people who join the army do so to protect their people and nation. Only a small percentage of those will see combat on a regular basis, and an even smaller percentage will actually kill people.
I know the difference between patriotism and nationalism, what I meant was that people that hate the army tend to view patriotism as nationalism. I should have been clearer.
Aaaah. I had an incling you were getting at that, but I sorta dismissed it.
GundamSentinel: When was the last time soldiers actually died in defense of their country?
Well the South Ossetia War for one, in 2008.
Yeah, but the Irish (like OP), Americans, or Dutch (like me), French, Germans, you name it, haven't had to defend their own country in decades.
True, but then, "When was the last time soldiers from a major western military power like the USA or Germany actually died in defence of their country?" would be a better question, since it doesn't generalise so much. Edit: And in defence of the Irish, their armed forces are tiny anyway.
I don't hate the military, I just dislike the glorification of it. To me, a soldier has a job like anyone else, I don't look up to them more than anyone else. Not all soldiers are heroes by definition, but I guess it puts them in a position where they have an opportunity to become heroes. The only time I begin to hate soldier is when they expect to be treated differently.
Roggen Bread: I'm no expert on the whole Afghanistan-Talbin buissness. All I read in the newspapers (that is, the serious ones, not the boulevard press) is, that the immense influence of the Taliban is making it hard to fight them efficiently. The population is scared, they believe, that the Taliban will rise to power very very quickly, after the ISAF is gone, and will punish, and already do, any collaborateurs.There was this one US-Military paper that was leaked just some weeks ago. It said, that they assume, a civil war will break out pretty fast, and the taliban will seize power again.
Ah, well, that's because the word "Taliban" is now being applied to "anyone armed who opposes ISAF", both for political reasons, and because the situation is too complicated for a nice soundbite.
Mind you, the practical difference between the Taliban and certain other groups might be up for debate.
Roggen Bread: On the Germany buissness. Well of course they didn't. You cannot watch into everyone's head and arrest if Nazi. And there are issues with people's histories even TODAY. Just look at Günther Grass and his poem. It's like 3-4 weeks ago. But as a matter of fact, the Nazis vanished de facto from German politics. The party most to the right, that we tolerate here (and they've been struggling to ban it for decades) is the NPD. It is not even as right as the republicans are! It still is a bunch of brown scumbags. If they try to demonstrate with like 200 people there are THOUSANDS of people opposing them.
Ah, you mean a purge of the politics, that's fair enough (though it wasn't as complete as it could have been, everyone was too worried about the next war with the USSR to concern themselves with the tail end of the last one).
Roggen Bread: Imagine a missile hitting, say, Khabul. 30 civ's die in the process. This would be a MAJOR scandal. Would you like me to post a picture from Cologne or Dresden after the war? Or statistics of civilian fatalaties? This is NOTHING. I am not saying, you should nuke down the whole country. But it is a completely different kind of warfare. And say what you will. It is less effective in inducing fear of opposing the attacking forces.
By attacking I did not mean someone shooting at a soldier, or assaulting with a knife. I'm talking of throwing a rotten egg, a rock or insulting them. If you did that to an american soldier in the late 40's you would have been in pretty fucking huge trouble.
This is something, that goes unpunished today. (Still not saying, they should just shoot anyone, who looks at them funny)
Ah, ok, misunderstood there.
But, I'd challenge that it's less effective in causing fear. Simply upping the casualty count isn't enough, all it does is make the locals hate you, which is exactly what you don't want.
By comparison, in Vietnam, the US military killed massive amounts of civilians. Less than in places like Dresden, of course, but still very high. This didn't frighten their opponents into submission.
As an aside, I woudln't recommened throwing rocks at US soldiers in Afghanistan. If they can see it's a rock, they almost certainly won't shoot you, but if they think it's a grenade, well...
The enemy in Afghanistan cannot function without the support of the locals, nor can ISAF cannot defeat them without it. It is absolutely essential for each side to gain their support, and undermine their support of the enemy. Committing atrocities against them is playing straight into your enemies hands...a decent way of getting the locals support is to provoke your enemy into attacking the civilians.
Isn't that the organisation comprised entirely of people who volunteered for a job that involves either killing people or facilitating the killing of people at the behest of politicians?
Oh yeah.
I think you're getting them mixed up with assassins. The army does things like stabilising countries, protecting civilians, toppling tyrants etc.
Now, I know this doesn't mean a whole lot, but I've been in an Army JROTC program for the last three years. My 1SGT served in Vietnam, and has given us vivid details about how he was treated, then I compare it to how they're treated today. Overall, soldiers today are treated so much better (in America) than they were in Vietnam. They can still be treated horribly though,and I don't know why. I'm not sure that they understand that the only reason they can speak out like that and voice their opinions are because we have soldiers fighting and dying for us to do so.
The military should really get more respect than they do. So should the police force and firefighters. They are all putting their lives on the line so we can live our lives as peacefully as possible.
Isn't that the organisation comprised entirely of people who volunteered for a job that involves either killing people or facilitating the killing of people at the behest of politicians?
Oh yeah.
I think you're getting them mixed up with assassins. The army does things like stabilising countries, protecting civilians, toppling tyrants etc.
Are you joking?
Dear God please tell me this man is joking.
I never joke about such matters. (I do actually, but shut up) But seriously, this does happen. I know it's hard to believe when you've convinced yourself it's all about dat luverly oil and dem nasty politicians are all selfish and greedy, but soldiers were sent to stabilise Kosovo and Sierra Leone and protect the civilians there. They also protect civilians in Afghanistan and toppled tyannical regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I don't hate the army, I'm just not supporting them. I don't like wars (IRL that is. Fight all you want in movies/games/books.), but I'm not going to punch you in the face if you tell me you're going to join the army.
Zhukov: Dear God please tell me this man is joking.
RedBird: I refuse to respect anyone who makes their living by killing or wounding others,
Grey Day for Elcia: Soldiers are trained murderers and the military is a war mongering hate machine
I'm going to kindly tell you to shush your opinions when you obviously haven't put a single SECOND of thought into the subject.
The military ends tomorrow. Who will save you if the bridge you are walking on collapses? No Navy divers to help you.
Or what about your ship sinking? No Air Force and no Coast Guard to save your ass this time.
It's easy to complain about the military when you OBVIOUSLY never had to depend on them. I'm glad, it means you never were in a possibly deadly situation. But it's not an excuse to be an oblivious critic because the military is the group of people that make sure you live safely so that you can spit your unfounded opinions.
How many lives have you saved? Because my father probably saved more people that you will ever save, participated in countless humanitarian missions and has done all kinds of Search & Rescue/Medvacs, etc.
It's a bad thing to wish evil on someone, but perhaps you need to dive into some cold water 200 miles away from the coast to freshed up your ideas about the military.
PercyBoleyn: Because they're overglorified killers who do the government's dirty job whether we like it or not.
Just saying, unless you think you can oppose the government and actually succeed don't talk shit about people you don't know personally. Hate to use buzzwords, but I have to say that post was an ignorant "blanket statement".
Vietnam? You can't hold the military responsible. The US government tried the ingenious plan of letting politicians make war, which lead to the complete clusterfuck that we know as Vietnam.
RazadaMk2: I was watching live coverage of the Iraq war. An America soldier was firing blind over the top of a wall. I just remember thinking "He is not aiming. Anyone could get hit. What the hell. That is dangerous" (I was... Christ, Its been a long time, I was young).
An individual rifle is used for accurate single shot firing. The advent of the assault rifle allows for lighter weapons that will carry more ammo with the added benefit of controlled automatic fire.
Basically, a weapon is used in a precision fashion during regular combat, but when SHTF you just want to shoot downrange.
It suppresses the enemy, if civilians get hit it's because the enemy is using them as a human shield. "Anyone can get hit" is precisely what happens when you're in a firefight. Don't expect bullets to dodge you just because you're a civilian, be them aimed ot just shot in a general direction.
Vietnam? You can't hold the military responsible. The US government tried the ingenious plan of letting politicians make war, which lead to the complete clusterfuck that we know as Vietnam.
Firstly, that's totally missing the point of what I was saying.
Secondly, the US government did a good job of fucking things up, yes, but to a large extent so did the US military.
Westmoreland, for example, might have been a good choice for organising the next Korean War, but was a lousy choice for Vietnam, refusing to acknowledge that the enemy wasn't playing by his rules and certain that his plan was working.
The Australian forces and the US marines were willing and able to fight a proper counter insurgency and guerilla war, but the US army and commanders were not.
ElPatron: An individual rifle is used for accurate single shot firing. The advent of the assault rifle allows for lighter weapons that will carry more ammo with the added benefit of controlled automatic fire.
Basically, a weapon is used in a precision fashion during regular combat, but when SHTF you just want to shoot downrange.
It suppresses the enemy, if civilians get hit it's because the enemy is using them as a human shield. "Anyone can get hit" is precisely what happens when you're in a firefight. Don't expect bullets to dodge you just because you're a civilian, be them aimed ot just shot in a general direction.
Er, suppressing fire has to be aimed more or less at the enemy, doesn't it, which you can't do firing totally blind.
Having said that, I can imagine various reasons why the soldier might do that, though I don't imagine they'd come up that often. Without seeing teh footage it's hard to say.
Personally, I got called a troop-hater for simply not unilaterally supporting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and for not hating all AyRabs, so I tend to assume most of the "hate the troops" crap is overstated.
Yes. I hate the troops. I hate my two cousins, three uncles, and grandfather who have served. I hate like two dozen of my high school friends who are active service or recently out. Yes, I hate a couple of my closest buddies for being Army or Marines.
I HATE THE TROOPS! ALL BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU!
ablac: We need sticks because others have sticks, however the guy actually willing to beat someone with the stick at least capable of doing so is pretty dodgy. That was my thinking. I dont hate the army but if you are ready to kill then you arent normal. I see the need but that doesnt mean i respect the people who will fulfill that need. I dont hate the army and I feel few do, I dont like em either. You kill people, I cant respect that.
You have to undergo a lot of training and mental reconditioning first you know. 99% of people who join the army do so to protect their people and nation. Only a small percentage of those will see combat on a regular basis, and an even smaller percentage will actually kill people.
Yet soldiers go on killing sprees, shoot civilians who were blatantly non-threatening when there isnt even anything to suggest it was necessary (good example would be the video of, I think, Afghanistani journalists being gunned down via manned drone for meeting as a group when they report the truth, or the airstrike of al jazeera HQ. All done by soldiers who would have done none of the sort had they any form of morality/humanity). Most soldiers are there out of need for employment rather than patriotism, why do you think they are paid a ridiculously low wage? The army wants people thick enough to not question orders, if your smarter than that then you are the ones giving the orders and youve probably had your morality broken a long time ago. If patriotism is the reason then thats pretty sick, even if you arent killing yourself you are involved in the fighting and so are equally responsible, being willing to kill for oyur country doesnt make you a patriot it makes you a murderer with a flag. We call out those who fight for their religion or fight for countries who arent our friends, what truly differentiates them from our soldiers? Delivering death is not an act of patriotism, we do not accept that a man can kill another in any other walk of life so why do we here? I understand what you are trying to say but I still dont like the army and your reasons dont apply to my position.
It is not as complex as people often make it out to be. Army is created in order to fight with force, agiasnt outside offence or attack outside source (for inside we got other professions, such as police, swat, you name it, altrough there are cases where army can interfere). Being mainly fighting oriented they attract people who are mainly fighting oriented. Nature made it so those guys are mostly complete and utter idiots. This is partly because smart people realize that a good fight is the one you avoided. But we dont got so many of them. Therefore, if army mainly have idiots in it, and people hate idiots, therefore army is hated by the people. Secondly, armys main objective is to kill. Most people hate killing, therefore they hate army. Most people that love killing are either in army or in jail. Thirdly, a concept of patriotizm. military is often praised for beign patriotic. smart people know that patritism is bad. therefore smart people hate the army.
Army, as a concept, in itself is not bad. Army, as a reality - is.
Personally, i dont think army is all bad or all good. i think there are both sides in this situation.
Er, suppressing fire has to be aimed more or less at the enemy, doesn't it, which you can't do firing totally blind.
SNIP
Actually, that's pretty standard procedure. He no doubt wasn't firing totally "blind", like you seem to think. It's much more likely that he knew the position of the enemy combatants, either through previous looks or by hearing their weapons fire, and was spraying some ammo over his cover to make them duck, to give him time to get up and take an aimed shot.
Chasing-The-Light: I don't know anything about the Irish army, but I'm the daughter of a soldier in the army who's been overseas twice already and I've dealt with a lot from people giving hate to the army. I don't really get it, at times...
I mean, there are some jibes that people do, here. Like, my ex-girlfriend's husband is in the Navy and constantly is like, "Yeah, people in the army are just bullet shields for us!" He doesn't necessarily mean it, but it's that friendly rivalry between each division, and while I understand that, there are times too when I do feel like it's a bit overdone.
Next, I also dated a girl who was a militant anarchist and her and her friends hated the military. We weren't allowed to talk politics with each other because it would come down to me getting personally offended and her going on these rants about how "the military is useless" and how they don't do anything. She would be like, "Yeah, I respect them for what they do but I don't think what they're doing is right. I don't agree with it at all. I don't like it and I think it's stupid that they even join!"
People can be ignorant sometimes, I think... they don't realize how much people in the military give up for the rest of us and how much we can have because of them.
I don't know if I actually answered the question or not... or if I just went on a giant rant... xD;;; Either way, there's my opinion on it!
Why are they the ones who are ignorant and not you?
Yes, I'm one of those who think US spending that much money on military is really stupid. And my own country too, but we already spend little.
I think it's fine for you to think it's wrong for the US to spend that much money, but I do not think it's right for you to think that the people who get into the military are stupid. You don't know them or why they do it, therefore you have no room to make judgement.
Zhukov: Dear God please tell me this man is joking.
RedBird: I refuse to respect anyone who makes their living by killing or wounding others,
Grey Day for Elcia: Soldiers are trained murderers and the military is a war mongering hate machine
I'm going to kindly tell you to shush your opinions when you obviously haven't put a single SECOND of thought into the subject.
The military ends tomorrow. Who will save you if the bridge you are walking on collapses? No Navy divers to help you.
Or what about your ship sinking? No Air Force and no Coast Guard to save your ass this time.
It's easy to complain about the military when you OBVIOUSLY never had to depend on them. I'm glad, it means you never were in a possibly deadly situation. But it's not an excuse to be an oblivious critic because the military is the group of people that make sure you live safely so that you can spit your unfounded opinions.
How many lives have you saved? Because my father probably saved more people that you will ever save, participated in countless humanitarian missions and has done all kinds of Search & Rescue/Medvacs, etc.
It's a bad thing to wish evil on someone, but perhaps you need to dive into some cold water 200 miles away from the coast to freshed up your ideas about the military.
PercyBoleyn: Because they're overglorified killers who do the government's dirty job whether we like it or not.
Just saying, unless you think you can oppose the government and actually succeed don't talk shit about people you don't know personally. Hate to use buzzwords, but I have to say that post was an ignorant "blanket statement".
While I can't approve of military coups in general, the Portuguese military acted in a righteous fashion in taking down the authoritarian government in Portugal (though they had previously kept the regime in power). In any event, the missions that you are talking about are mainly humanitarian missions, which only account for a tiny percentage of the money actually spent on militaries globally. If you're just interested in these kind of missions, why not cut out the huge waste of money and slaughter of people in the third world and just have coast guards and rescue forces? To bring up the Japanese example again, the Japanese coast guard is much more responsive and effective than the bloated, politicized Japanese Defense Force.
chiefohara: Im only a reservist, so i can't speak for frontline soldiers.
I nearly got in a fistfight tonight with someone who cheapened what the Irish army does, and belittled their contribution to UN peace keeping mission by labeling them mercenaries.
They broadened their vague assertions to all western armies and then had the gall to lecture me on patriotism, whilst at the same time belittling what little bit i have contributed when they have done nothing. This wasn't someone trolling me for fun, but a genuine arsehole who hates the army but is more manly than them..... how is christ's name do you deal/educate a person like that and not willingly murder them?
He called me a cheerleader, and you know what... fine.... I'll happily laud to everyone the contributions the defence forces make, ill readily admit im only a reservist sandbag scumbag.... A civilian can only contribute so much, but what i can do, i bloody well do. Why should i be ashamed of that, and why should i be ashamed of the Irish army? Why should anyone be ashamed of their army?
i think its mostly by things you read in the newspaper about the shit some retarded soldier did. which then makes the army shine in a not-so-good light.
they think they would look bad ass by doing it or that they would act some kind of revenge on them but in realitiy they are giving the enemies more reasons to hate them and plant more roadside bombs.
plus, due real events, movies and other media, whenever the army shows up you know something bad is going to happen and they most likely will shoot you on sight, by mistake or outright excecute you. so blame the media (not the news but video games and movies) and stupid soldiers that are putting the lives and honour of the other soldiers at risk
Not being disrespectful, but the Irish defence forces has very few instances of things like this. Not because we are better but because our guys don't get put under the same pressure and demands that the US military does. The soldier that killed 16 Afghan civilians was on his 3rd tour of duty and had a breakdown before that happened. Not excusing it, but from what i understand the US military is repeatedly putting people back into active service because they need the numbers, this guy shouldn't have been there in the first place.
As for the other instances, especially the arsehole with the puppy. Well they are just scumbags. Scumbags are unfortunately present in every walk of life.
The only incident i can recall where our guys were genuine arseholes is this
I can't find a link following up with what happened to these guys, but i do know that they got stamped on quite hard.
My point is the army doesn't encourage or ignore these things, and people who do that are held in contempt by people in the military too.
but thats the tragedy.
some apples spoil the whole bunch.
i know that these crimes get persecuted/inspected, i know that 99% of all soldiers are just like your average joe but the image of the non thinking, ruthless murder machines stays within us.
i have associated army with something bad (blame the media, society and history classes) and it is not the american army or the irish army nor is it the german army or the army of dumbeldore and so on.
its THE army in general.
its almost the same thing when a policeman approaches you.
you haven't done anything wrong, and you know its just a routine check up since you are walking home at 2 am trough a part of the city that may or may not have some burglaries. but you still inexplicably get slightly nervous. (or maybe its just me, being paranoid.)
do you know that feeling towards policemen? i have it. and one of my friends is a policemmen. it is weird.
...the biggest difference is that mercs get paid more, have better equipment and there's a larger barrier to entry. Being a soldier carries a certain amount of job security.
There's also the patriotism bullshit, but it never holds up under scrutiny. Captain America doesn't exist.