Always on DRM can be a good thing!

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CManator:
So let me get this straight... The silver lining to this is that some people MIGHT complain to their isps in the vain hope that connectivity MIGHT improve? And that is why we should accept shitty practices that SHOULD NOT become the norm?

No, the only silver lining here is that the game itself is good... if you are fortunate enough to be able to play it.

To be fair, im not having any problems with connecting,but the laggs are annoyng(lags in a singleplayer game... thats just weird...)

Ot:Always online DRM is stupid, and will be stupid, until we invent a never failing internet connection thingy,and even then it would still find ways to annoy.

RazadaMk2:

You would still need to buy the hardware capable of running the game, there could still even be console exclusives and whatnot. The cloud gaming model does not dissmiss the current existing models. Regardless, this is all theory.

I see no problem with D3's model. I see no problem with always online DRM. It may not be popular but, we brought this upon ourselves.

That "We" is not a gamer we. That is a "The Human Race" we.

Pirating is easy, the internet is available for almost all of the videogame market, why not try and exploit the internet to stop the piracy? Why not try and use this hardware to our benefit?

Oh, and as for the "They are screwing the customers to make money!" argument? So is every single company. Everywhere. Nobody is providing things at the cost it takes to produce them. So, unless you found some form of Communist Gaming Collective (Which does appeal to me. Just saying. Also, do you know how hard this argument is for a communist to make? I guess I just understand the capitalist system.) you gotta get used to this. Companies screw consumers to make money. They use the money to make more things so they can screw the consumers for more money. That is how capitalism works.

You really want to fight DRM? You really want to fight against what you see as shitty corporate practices? Start a fucking revolution. Anything short of that will change absolutely nothing.

tldr;

Technology advances. Company uses new technology to its advantage.

Problem?

You wouldn't need hardware though, just a small box like the onlive box that connects to the service. That doesn't sound like a console to me.

Anyway, the new DRM IS shit and has downsides.

#1 People who are disconnected cannot play offline. You may say "Oh but X% are connected". That doesn't matter because "100-X% cannot play the game" for no reason whatsoever, it wouldn't take any effort to let them play offline.

#2 Pirates are playing the game right now and they don't have to deal with it. Take a look online, the DRM stopped them for what? Like a day, at most.

3# People deal with inconveniences like the D3 fiasco, pirates avoid this.

#4 Like Gabe Newell said, it's a service issue, not a pirate issue. Look at steam in Russia for an example. You have to offer good service to get people to use the service, D3 offers nothing to the average person.

Also, I have nothing wrong with profit and I doubt anyone else has. It's when companies remove things that were standard years ago and their products decline in quality year after year then expect more money for it. That's what people hate.

You seem to think screw means make profit. I do not think you know what that word means.

bahumat42:
If you are having trouble with bandwidth ping or just in general not being able to play properly the correct course of action is to moan at your ISP, (assuming you don't have dirty porn viruses of course) this in turn will force them to improve their network. The more this infrastructure improves the better it is for all of us.

Oh my God, do you actually believe that?

Creating a problem is suddenly a good thing because it might lead to improvements that will make the problem a little bit less of a nuisance. For some people. And everyone with problems will just have to accept that they can't play their singleplayer game because their Internet connection isn't good enough.

And then the OP goes on to shift the blame from the service provider onto the customers when the provider (Blizzard) fail to supply the "service" (DRM/verification) they've forced on their customers.

What the fucking fuck?

bahumat42:
this in turn will force them to improve their network. The more this infrastructure improves the better it is for all of us.

That doesn't work in the "real" world. Countries are big as hell. Don't think about cities, think about the whole infrastructure necessary to connect a whole goddamned country.

You want better connection? Pay your ISP to upgrade the infrastructure in your city. They know they can get away with charging gigantic prices for slow ass internet and 5gb limits. That's how it works, you pay your ISP so that it becomes economically feasible.

Matthew94:

RazadaMk2:

The future of gaming.

A future when entire games are held on servers, with nothing but a client installed on your computer. A future when the old days of game rental come back using this system.

That will most likely not happen for quite a while.

There are many reasons but here is the big one:

The hardware companies will not let it happen. It would essentially spell the death of all consoles (which includes Nintendo who are gaming only) and it will force companies like AMD and nVidia to lose billions, it won't happen.

I agree cloud gaming will grow and most likely boom but it won't take over, not any time soon as long as the hardware and gaming giants have their say.

So, you completely missed NVIDIA talking about their cloud gaming aspirations?

ResonanceSD:

Matthew94:

RazadaMk2:

The future of gaming.

A future when entire games are held on servers, with nothing but a client installed on your computer. A future when the old days of game rental come back using this system.

That will most likely not happen for quite a while.

There are many reasons but here is the big one:

The hardware companies will not let it happen. It would essentially spell the death of all consoles (which includes Nintendo who are gaming only) and it will force companies like AMD and nVidia to lose billions, it won't happen.

I agree cloud gaming will grow and most likely boom but it won't take over, not any time soon as long as the hardware and gaming giants have their say.

So, you completely missed NVIDIA talking about their cloud gaming aspirations?

I saw it but I reckon the sale of 50 million consoles and many millions of PCs may be a little higher than with cloud gaming.

Care to educate me if I am wrong?

bahumat42:
bitching does need to occur nonetheless.

I agree! bitching is good, companies will eventually listen!

bahumat42:

the day 1 surge (most common with mmo's) is well documented. I have little sympathy for people who couldn't see that part coming.

Wait, what? no sympathy for people who bitch? But I believed in you! Don't do this to me!!

OT: I see what your saying in a 'there is a silver lining' sort of way, and your right... but it IS a silver lining, not quite consequential enough to be a pro factor for the choice in question.

My favorite bit about this whole debacle is the lack of forward-thinking. No game is supported forever. Despite that, I can go back and play a game made by a now-dead company from 1994 if I want... and I do such things regularly.
When Diablo III falls out of vogue, ActiBlizzard's support of it stops and its servers shut down... will you even be able to play it?
...only if there are pirate servers out there.

I find that quite sad. Also a deal-breaker. I will never play this game.

There are no pros with always on DRM there are just cons that range from horrible and abysmal to bad and annoying.

Zachary Amaranth:

bahumat42:
If you are having trouble with bandwidth ping or just in general not being able to play properly the correct course of action is to moan at your ISP, (assuming you don't have dirty porn viruses of course) this in turn will force them to improve their network. The more this infrastructure improves the better it is for all of us.

Oh my God, do you actually believe that?

Yeah because i did it once and it fixed it. I was being throttled due to a previous owners payments issues and complaining fixed it.

But without taking these issues up nobody will ever improve them.

ElPatron:

bahumat42:
this in turn will force them to improve their network. The more this infrastructure improves the better it is for all of us.

That doesn't work in the "real" world. Countries are big as hell. Don't think about cities, think about the whole infrastructure necessary to connect a whole goddamned country.

You want better connection? Pay your ISP to upgrade the infrastructure in your city. They know they can get away with charging gigantic prices for slow ass internet and 5gb limits. That's how it works, you pay your ISP so that it becomes economically feasible.

Or you vote with your wallet and go to the provider who is improving their network. Same as i did with my mobile a few years back, haven't regretted the decision at all. The more people vote with their wallet in this regard the more companies would have to pay attention.

Mordekaien:
I still don't get why am I forced by the game to play it's offline version basically online. If the servers go down, or have maintenance I can't play. If my internet connections crashes, I can't play.
Now, someone who pirates the game gets it for FREE, without those restrictions, and will not give a fuck about things like server downtime.

I used to play D2 on my laptop when I was travelling, now it seems it would keep me company still till Torchlight 2 comes along.

captcha: identity theft... yes, I am in fact an alien in disguise.

with a regular company servers going down would be an issue, since blizz has the wow experience for this other than surges that shouldn't happen. And maintenance SHOULD (it might take as long as wow maintenance but it shouldn't anymore) be a fairly quick process.

If it were any other company i would raise more of an eyebrow. But my wow days kinda showed me that they know what they are doing. And the surge is not evidence to the contrary, there is always a surge.

There are not words for how stupid this is.

There will not be any improvement. People have been bitching about these issues since the very dawn of time, and they haven't changed. They won't change.

Let's face it. For a ISP, we gamers are absolutely shitty customers. We take more than we pay for relative to, say, a little grandma who checks her e-mail every Sunday afternoon. If we complain because we occasionally have problems dealing with the crazy dumbshit practices of the gaming industry, you could scour the universe and not find a single fuck being given by our ISPs.

What are we going to do?

Switch over to another service that does... what? The exact same thing? Oh, well that's nice.

Unsilenced:
There are not words for how stupid this is.

There will not be any improvement. People have been bitching about these issues since the very dawn of time, and they haven't changed. They won't change.

Let's face it. For a ISP, we gamers are absolutely shitty customers. We take more than we pay for relative to, say, a little grandma who checks her e-mail every Sunday afternoon. If we complain because we occasionally have problems dealing with the crazy dumbshit practices of the gaming industry, you could scour the universe and not find a single fuck being given by our ISPs.

What are we going to do?

Switch over to another service that does... what? The exact same thing? Oh, well that's nice.

well unlike the rest of the world here in the UK theres actually a fair amount of competition in this area, and it has provided useful things like highspeed and uncapped (reasonably priced) plans on certain brands.

This kind of healthy competition breeds a better environment for the consumers. If there proves to be a market for the people who have had enough of it, then a competitor may come in and snatch that segment up.

True its very dependant on various governments actually getting base infrastructure up to standard but with the downloadable market ever growing (music,film, games software) and related industries and profit streams on the rise its downright ignorant to not take advantage of that for the sake of the economy.

Never has it been easier for the basement upstart, and that should be supported.

bahumat42:
snip

Obviously you don't know how the market works.

Nobody (ISPs) wants to service a country like America. It's huge. So what happens? If they try to extend their premium and cheaper services to places with lower populational density, they will lose money. Literally. They will lose money installing, and they will lose money maintaining it.

So no ISP wants to do it. That way they don't have competition.

It's the perfect way of doing business. Nobody gives a fuck, the consumer is forced to pay more for a worse service, there is no competition. The only way to vote with the wallet is stop paying, because no matter who you go to, they won't give a fuck.

never thought about it. as long as theirs some benefit to it being there i'm not likely to mind (like D3's AH as example)

but then, i play a lot of MMOs and solo 90% of the time so take of that what you will

bahumat42:

Unsilenced:
There are not words for how stupid this is.

There will not be any improvement. People have been bitching about these issues since the very dawn of time, and they haven't changed. They won't change.

Let's face it. For a ISP, we gamers are absolutely shitty customers. We take more than we pay for relative to, say, a little grandma who checks her e-mail every Sunday afternoon. If we complain because we occasionally have problems dealing with the crazy dumbshit practices of the gaming industry, you could scour the universe and not find a single fuck being given by our ISPs.

What are we going to do?

Switch over to another service that does... what? The exact same thing? Oh, well that's nice.

well unlike the rest of the world here in the UK theres actually a fair amount of competition in this area, and it has provided useful things like highspeed and uncapped (reasonably priced) plans on certain brands.

This kind of healthy competition breeds a better environment for the consumers. If there proves to be a market for the people who have had enough of it, then a competitor may come in and snatch that segment up.

True its very dependant on various governments actually getting base infrastructure up to standard but with the downloadable market ever growing (music,film, games software) and related industries and profit streams on the rise its downright ignorant to not take advantage of that for the sake of the economy.

Never has it been easier for the basement upstart, and that should be supported.

Upstarts that will do what though? Just give a better service at a lower price? Brilliant plan. How the fuck will they do it?

Companies don't do stuff just to be mean. They can't just magically produce better service to appease you. They have to weigh cost and benefit, and that clearly works against your idea.

In order to provide perfect, unhalting and high-speed internet to all of it's customers, everywhere, an ISP would have to sell *several* souls to the devil and still shell out millions of dollars. Then what if there's a storm? Or a glitch? Or just routine maintenance?

It's fucking impossible. Even with a magical grant from the money fairy, they can't always keep connections open at the speed necessary to run online games.

So what should you do?

Bitch to the people that are making the problem. Tell game companies that, no, you do not have magical internet that you are always connected to perfectly at all times, and that you would like to be able to play the games you fucking paid for when you fucking want to, even if it's on a fucking plane.

They're *much* more likely to listen, because while ISPs can afford to lose gamers, game companies really can't.

Captcha: On-off.

It's what your internet does.

The only reason DRM is on D3 is so you can't hack items for the cash store.

ITS ALL ABOUT THE CASH STORE. Its literally that simple. It's not about piracy, its about auction house scamming.

Here's the thing, the game that you bought with your money can only be played when they want you to. Even Starcraft 2 had an offline mode where your stats didn't matter (for achievements and rank stuff). So why can't Diablo 3 have an offline mode? Or do the D2 thing and have separate offline/online characters. Its not even buying the game to be honest, its paying 60 bucks to loan the game to you when they feel like it. Servers down? Sucks for you. No connection? Sucks for you. Stuck in a queue? Sucks for you.

What ever happened to LAN? Seriously that shit was loads better than any online garbage nowadays.

If only so many people wouldn't buy these fucking games! Then everything can be improved and better for all us.

bahumat42:

Mordekaien:
I still don't get why am I forced by the game to play it's offline version basically online. If the servers go down, or have maintenance I can't play. If my internet connections crashes, I can't play.
Now, someone who pirates the game gets it for FREE, without those restrictions, and will not give a fuck about things like server downtime.

I used to play D2 on my laptop when I was travelling, now it seems it would keep me company still till Torchlight 2 comes along.

captcha: identity theft... yes, I am in fact an alien in disguise.

with a regular company servers going down would be an issue, since blizz has the wow experience for this other than surges that shouldn't happen. And maintenance SHOULD (it might take as long as wow maintenance but it shouldn't anymore) be a fairly quick process.

If it were any other company i would raise more of an eyebrow. But my wow days kinda showed me that they know what they are doing. And the surge is not evidence to the contrary, there is always a surge.

You don't know that for certain. I can have all the experience I have, but if for example a blackout occurs where the server is located people won't be able to launch their game, even if the are playing singleplayer, in other words, the offline component. To rely on a server to handle offline component sounds stupid to me.

On the matter with maintenance, how quick it is done is not the thing here- it is still going to prevent you from playing. If you live in another timezone than where the server is located, this could also mean that by the time you have a night maintenance of servers, I have my free time that I wanna spend playing the game.

There's nothing more immersion and game breaking than playing a game, all by myself fighting the big demon guy and then suddenly it vanishes, because my internet connection's not stable.
They know what they are doing, but it sure as hell doesn't make it any convenient to play.

What are you on? Crystal meth? It's crystal meth isn't it.You should get help. That stuff is bad for you.

If you are not on drugs then I don't know what is wrong with you. Calling your internet provider to fix your bandwidth so you can play diablo III. There are no words... just... what?

image

Bahumat, i've got to ask for full disclosure here mate.

Do you work for any company who created/supplies/has anything to do with DRM?

Do you work for Blizzard?

Are you a plant who's job is to get onto forums and try to get people to think more positively about products that contain DRM?

Are you trolling?

If the answer is no to all of these questions, please state your mental issues so that we can understand how/why you came to this conclusion. I dont feel that we can safely move on in this thread untill we clear these issues up.

This has to be one of the more...unfortunate threads I have seen lately.

Please sit down, rethink your point.

If you cant see how silly this is after a few minutes of real thought, there is little hope.

Sorry, I don't do satellite internet, and spend a lot of time in no-wi-fi areas.

Thus, I can play many games on my laptop, one of which is not Diablo 3. End of story. That kind of ruins it for me, because I play my graphics-crunchers at home on my godly PC, and my not-graphics-crunchers on my laptop when I'm out.

Thank God for GOG.

bahumat42:
the correct course of action is to moan at your ISP, (assuming you don't have dirty porn viruses of course) this in turn will force them to improve their network. The more this infrastructure improves the better it is for all of us.

That's not how it works in reality. In real life a couple of ISPs, one who is renting the lines, and one who own the lines, have a several year back and forth with each other saying "They're your lines! You fix them!" which is rebutted with "NO! YOU FIX THEM!" Trust me, I've lived in crappy rural towns and areas of cities that get the shaft with internet pretty much my whole life. It takes a minimum of two years of the whole area consistently bitching for the ISP to maybe consider fixing it at some point down the line.

And even if they do 'fix' the internet you can bet your ass the that it's still going to be a substandard barely liveable lump of crap.

There's not a single good thing about almost on DMR. It wont fix anything in the world. It wont improve anyone's connection. It wont stop piracy, if anything it encourage it. It makes customers feel betrayed when they get treated like criminals.

It forces us to take measure in order to improve our connection. For many of us this is not a choice.

What you're saying sounds like a joke, but I'm not sure it's actually meant to be one.

This troubles me.

Don Savik:
The only reason DRM is on D3 is so you can't hack items for the cash store.

ITS ALL ABOUT THE CASH STORE. Its literally that simple. It's not about piracy, its about auction house scamming.

Here's the thing, the game that you bought with your money can only be played when they want you to. Even Starcraft 2 had an offline mode where your stats didn't matter (for achievements and rank stuff). So why can't Diablo 3 have an offline mode? Or do the D2 thing and have separate offline/online characters. Its not even buying the game to be honest, its paying 60 bucks to loan the game to you when they feel like it. Servers down? Sucks for you. No connection? Sucks for you. Stuck in a queue? Sucks for you.

What ever happened to LAN? Seriously that shit was loads better than any online garbage nowadays.

If it weren't about piracy as well then they'd have added a single-player mode completely severed from the online aspect, as suggested by anyone and everyone with any common sense. I'm sure someone at Blizzard has that amount of mental capacity.

You're a loon, and your arguing is terrible. Always-online has no advantages that can't be gained through an offline connection. It's terrible in every way imaginable.

Grunt_Man11:
Can always online DRM be a good thing?

Short answer: No!

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Dr. Cox reference?

OT: It won't make ISP's change anything just because some gamers are complaining. If you're going to require something to have a constant internet connection, do not try and tell people you have a single player aspect. There is no right to stop someone who wanted to buy something to play single player from doing that, just because they don't have a good internet connection, or the servers are down, or whatever other reason.

RazadaMk2:
snip

Yes, problem. True everyone company is screwing everyone, that's called making a profit, but not in a way that prevents me from doing what I paid for. If I bought Diablo 3 for single player, which many people did, this prevents me from being able to do what I paid for.

My ipod will not stop playing music if itunes goes down or something, it only affects me if I want to use itunes at that particular time. The primary purpose, listening to music, is still an option. A T.V. and Cable for example are two separate things, so if my cable goes out I can still use my T.V. for non-cable things, such as movies or games. However, if Diablo 3, a game with a single player aspect has online servers go down or I have no internet connection, I can't play, and THAT is just bad business practice.

P.S. Yeah I didn't get the game either. There are other games I can get that will actually let me play single player. And before anyone claims because of that I don't know what I'm talking about a good friend does have the game, so yes I know.

You're saying that if I moaned more, my local ISP would likely provide a proper broadband connection to my area, but that's simply not true. I live in the countryside in Ireland and have only a 3G mobile internet dongle at home for all of my internet needs, it's very unreliable and I have my usage capped at 15 gb a month (I know, it's ridiculous) but its very unlikely that I'll ever see that service improve. To bring broadband to my townland they'd have to build new infrastructure from scratch, which is crazy expensive and they'd only reach a few dozen more customers in the 20 mile region around my house. In no way is that a wise investment for them.

I'm not saying your suggestion doesn't have merit, I'm just pointing out that ISPs often fail to provide good service to people not for a lack of complaining, but because it isn't a good business decision.

While it would be cool for always-on DRM to have such a beneficial side-effect, I don't think that most people who are critical of this practice are concerned about their ISP's performance, but rather, they are in a situation where they don't have permanent access to the internet.

Personally, I'm not interested in Diablo 3, and even if I was, the fact that it requires permanent internet connectivity wouldn't be an issue for me, but as far as I can tell, there's no justification for why you would need that in order to play single-player content, and also, even I know that Diablo 2 had a big LAN scene, which I imagine will pretty much be non-existent with Diablo 3 as a consequence of this.

bahumat42:

Yeah because i did it once and it fixed it. I was being throttled due to a previous owners payments issues and complaining fixed it.

But without taking these issues up nobody will ever improve them.

That's a very narrow issue you're talking about and applying as a broad issue.

No. DRM is still stupid. I appreciate people trying to see the good in shitty situations or whatever... but sometimes it's just better to admit your knee deep in shit and look for a way out.

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