Artist Needed!

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Okay, first of all, I just want to ask, what the hell happened to the Job Board? I used to use that a fair bit, as did many other people, looking pretty much for small-time gigs doing odd jobs like graphic design or writing, and it was a useful addition to the site that didn't impact anywhere else in any negative way. Why get rid of it?

And thus, second, is a post I made a while ago on the Job Board that didn't exactly get many hits. Basically, I'm a writer, and I need an artist. For the past year or so there's been an idea in my head for a webcomic that I want to do, but although I'm a great writer and graphic designer I'm a lousy 'traditional' artist. And so, I decided to turn to the Escapist (I did ask on Deviant Art too but I don't have enough connections there for it to work). What I'm looking for is an artist, ideally with experience although newer artists will also be considered, to get in touch if they're interested in creating a sci-fi/fantasy epic world and characters for me.

Ideally, the artist will be able to draw a wide variety of characters and landscapes, and although I'll consider any style my ideal vision has the art looking rather similar to Looking For Group, Questionable Content, or possibly anime-esque comics like Aoi House and Paranormal Mystery Squad.

If anyone is interested, then get in touch and I'll set a task, to draw a brief scene from near the start of the story. If it's good enough then I'll consider you for the job :). I'm hoping to try and earn money from this eventually, setting up my own website and running that and selling advertising space (just as a side thing, it won't be a full time job for me) and maybe merchandise eventually. For the start, however, it'll be unpaid, but when money starts to be earned from the site then all profits would be split equally between all involved parties :).

So yeah, if anyone wants to know more then just post in the forum or PM me, and I can give you more details. For now, here's a brief rundown of the general setting:

EDIT: Extra info, thanks to Erana's post below:

Pretty cool setting you've come up with there. Unfortunately, it seems a little too ambitious for me to try and illustrate right now. I wish you luck in finding someone who can, and look forward to seeing any results!

ThaBenMan:
Pretty cool setting you've come up with there. Unfortunately, it seems a little too ambitious for me to try and illustrate right now. I wish you luck in finding someone who can, and look forward to seeing any results!

Thanks anyway, and yeah, if it does get done I'll probably let people on here know anyway to try and drum up an early fanbase (provided I don't get banned for advertising xD).

Trivun:
Snip

Mm, interesting. If I join your cause, I wouldn't be interested in the pay. Rather, I would ask how detailed do you want these comics to be, or what an artist should start with? I'm most likely not going to be able to fill in the artist position (sadly I do want to though) because I have an LP to run, an job to be hired for, and so forth.

Still, I would love to keep updated about your story and see if I can still help somehow or least see history happen once you're done and completed with the trilogy :} Best luck to you friend.

Caramel Frappe:

Trivun:
Snip

Mm, interesting. If I join your cause, I wouldn't be interested in the pay. Rather, I would ask how detailed do you want these comics to be, or what an artist should start with? I'm most likely not going to be able to fill in the artist position (sadly I do want to though) because I have an LP to run, an job to be hired for, and so forth.

Still, I would love to keep updated about your story and see if I can still help somehow or least see history happen once you're done and completed with the trilogy :} Best luck to you friend.

Pretty detailed, to be honest. I don't need someone who's going to be able to draw as well as a professional, like you'd see in a Marvel print or something, but certainly someone who aspires to that level eventually, or can create something that looks good and is detailed. As I say, more 'Looking for Group' than 'xkcd' xD.

Thanks for showing an interest at any rate :). The story itself will come out eventually, one way or another. Even if I have to write it as a novel, or something. I just always wanted it to be a visual medium, and comics were the best way of putting my vision across, I felt. It's just a pity I don't have the artistic talent that so many other people do :P.

Here's a few more questions, laid out partly in not-actually-questions-but-bullets format:

Update frequency

Define the tone of the webcomic (Sounds

Is there a lot of action/special effects (I assume yes, but to what degree?)

Color?

How much content per update?

How much visually rendered sexual content? (Succubus? >.>)

Are creatures without a real-life analogue (Dragons, werewolves, etc) more human or bestial? (Does this matter for the plot/ is it up in the air?) Do demons have hooves/tails/horns/inhuman skin pigmentation?

Do you have any ideas on the style of this world, for that matter? Clothing/arcetecture/etc?

I might post more, but these are the first things that come to mind if I were to try to illustrate the comic as you've described.
And a webcomic is a big endeavor; I'm not sure if I should be considering an obligation when I already have multiple artistic pursuits going on. Still, I do wish you well.

Erana:
Here's a few more questions, laid out partly in not-actually-questions-but-bullets format:

Update frequency

Define the tone of the webcomic (Sounds

Is there a lot of action/special effects (I assume yes, but to what degree?)

Color?

How much content per update?

How much visually rendered sexual content? (Succubus? >.>)

Are creatures without a real-life analogue (Dragons, werewolves, etc) more human or bestial? (Does this matter for the plot/ is it up in the air?) Do demons have hooves/tails/horns/inhuman skin pigmentation?

Do you have any ideas on the style of this world, for that matter? Clothing/arcetecture/etc?

I might post more, but these are the first things that come to mind if I were to try to illustrate the comic as you've described.
And a webcomic is a big endeavor; I'm not sure if I should be considering an obligation when I already have multiple artistic pursuits going on. Still, I do wish you well.

Update frequency - probably every week. I was thinking a 'Freakangels'-style update schedule, that is, one weekly update but have five strips added at that time.

Tone - kind of a serious sort of thing, some humour but mostly a dramatic epic storyline-driven comic.

Special effects/action - a fair bit in some parts, but paced out. I do have a few action scenes in mind near the start, including a big chase scene leading up to Luna being framed for the murder which leads to her fleeing from Arcadia. A lot of the story will be character driven though.

Colour - yes, it'll be in colour, not black-and-white. Pretty realistic visuals ideally, but just have a look at the comics I mentioned as inspiration in my OP for an idea of the colour scheme and themes. That is, those comics listed that are in colour...

Content per update - again, five strips ideally per update, probably between six and ten panels per strip (but this can vary depending on the size of panels and what's happening - roughly the same length for each, though).

Sexual content - actually, very little :P. I didn't mention in the synopsis, but Luna ends up in a relationship with Scarlett fairly soon after they meet (part of the story, and I have plans much further down the line to shake things up a bit...). It's established early on the Luna is lesbian and Scarlett is bisexual, but I didn't mention that earlier since it's not a massive part of their characters. But yeah, although sex is talked about and perhaps a little bit of flesh shown, there's nothing really explicit.

Fantasy creatures - I encourage the artist to use their imagination. Mostly it'd be adhering to the more traditional looks given, but with a modern twist (bear in mind Arcadia is a futuristic version of Earth, but with magic, so it wouldn't be odd to see a Tolkien-esque elf wearing a suit and tie and working in an office somewhere). As I say, use your imagination, so feel free to come up with unique twists on the normal representation (in fact I actively wish for it :D). As for demons, as I mention they're genetically similar to humans, except with longer life-spans (perhaps five times as long) and magic ailities. However, they're split into sub-classes, like Chaos demons (such as Kane and Gabriel) who can feed on the energy from discord and strife, or incubi/succubi, who can feed on sexual energy, and other types too. Otherwise they tend to look human, and can easily pass for such.

Style - as I've previously mentioned it's similar to a magical futuristic real-life Earth, so clothing styles and such will mostly be the same. However, I have a very specific vision in mind for some places which will be given in detail to the artist(s) further down the line. For example, the city state of Persephone, I imagine to be a massive city of skyscrapers and spires and pointed towers (and parts similar to Eden from FF13), sited on an island in the middle of a massive lake and surrounded by ridges, hills and mountains as a natural protection. The city is accessed by tunnels that emerge from the lake as bridges into the city and come out near other towns under Persephone's rule some miles away - Persephone is supposed to be a very ecologically-friendly state :P.

What do the special effects look like?

And I have to point out that five color strips a week is a lot of content, especially for something that you aren't jumping into, full-time. Asking for that much that quickly seems terribly risky. I'd honestly suggest starting out with just a couple strips a week, in black and white, with maybe color images of important characters also available on the site. Regular updates are very important for webcomics, after all. I'd argue even moreso than volume of content.

When I asked about fantasy creatures, I don't simply mean aesthetics, but about what their physical forms would allow them to do. Do werewolves need to be able to hold a gun? Can Griffins fit through doors? Things like that. If your artist draws, say, a dragon in the background of an earlier panel as a massive, serpentine beast, You'll have to answer to that in the story later if you have a Western-style, small dragon character. Saying in the author comments that "there are different kinds of dragons" isn't too much a trouble, but it can affect your world and vision.
Allowing for freedom of artistic interpretation is great, but if there's any physical requirements you have of any of the fantasy creatures that even just might be in your story (thumbs, size, wings, etc.) make sure you know them as early in the creative process as possible, and pass them on to your artist.
Same thing goes for locations, too. If you might need a harbor, or an airport or a stadium or whatever else, let the artist know. The more the artist understands your vision, the easier it is to make the images and story feel cohesive. It also helps them to understand the way you think, which is just good for synergy in general.

Erana:
What do the special effects look like?

And I have to point out that five color strips a week is a lot of content, especially for something that you aren't jumping into, full-time. Asking for that much that quickly seems terribly risky. I'd honestly suggest starting out with just a couple strips a week, in black and white, with maybe color images of important characters also available on the site. Regular updates are very important for webcomics, after all. I'd argue even moreso than volume of content.

When I asked about fantasy creatures, I don't simply mean aesthetics, but about what their physical forms would allow them to do. Do werewolves need to be able to hold a gun? Can Griffins fit through doors? Things like that. If your artist draws, say, a dragon in the background of an earlier panel as a massive, serpentine beast, You'll have to answer to that in the story later if you have a Western-style, small dragon character. Saying in the author comments that "there are different kinds of dragons" isn't too much a trouble, but it can affect your world and vision.
Allowing for freedom of artistic interpretation is great, but if there's any physical requirements you have of any of the fantasy creatures that even just might be in your story (thumbs, size, wings, etc.) make sure you know them as early in the creative process as possible, and pass them on to your artist.
Same thing goes for locations, too. If you might need a harbor, or an airport or a stadium or whatever else, let the artist know. The more the artist understands your vision, the easier it is to make the images and story feel cohesive. It also helps them to understand the way you think, which is just good for synergy in general.

Fair enough :). Regarding the 'special effects', it's kind of hard to describe at this point. Think of a wizard's duel, for example, with two wizards blasting bright light and fire and so on at each other. That would be just one example, but we see stills from that instead of the whole fight. Or explosions and missiles being fired and guns being fired. Again, like stills instead of the whole scene. Here's an example:

http://www.freakangels.com/?p=374

That's not the particular art style I'm looking for, by the way, but there are plenty of pages if you have a look around there that have examples of the sort of action scenes I'm looking for.

About the fantasy creatures, that's something that would come up later on, and probably on a case-by-case basis. The artist as well as myself would need to keep in mind that the entirety of Arcadia is made to accommodate massive numbers of creatures, but even then limits have to be applied. For example, you won't find many giants walking the streets of Persephone or anything, but they'd likely have their own cities or nations elsewhere where they can live lives adapted for themselves pretty easily. Things like furniture or sizes of doors or how to hold weapons would be considered as something that varies naturally within the culture, since chances are custom weapons or whatever would be made by different manufacturers (and plenty of races wouldn't need to use weapons anyway, depending on their own natural defences...) to accommodate. A gun designed for a werewolf, who would only really use it when in humanoid shape anyway, would be very different to, say, a pistol designed for a creature with claws or talons, to accommodate the different grip. Again, something I encourage the artist to experiment with and play around with. Anything I specifically want would be communicated early on to the artist so it all fits together with the mythology I hope to build.

And yes, different types of creatures would likely appear, but again that's something I'd discuss with the chosen artist(s) early on. Crowd scenes, for example, would show a wide variety of creatures interacting normally, though there won't be very many of those for parts of the story, particularly given half the action takes place on Earth rather than Arcadia. For locations, again, I'd discuss that early on, though Earth locations I'd want to be as realistically accurate as well (the city mentioned, Leeds, is actually where I lived at university, so I know the area quite well). Hence, Google Maps and Images will help a lot there :).

Trivun:
SNIP

You know I'm only grilling you because I care. <3

Erana:

Trivun:
SNIP

You know I'm only grilling you because I care. <3

Haha, no worries xD. It's all stuff I need to think about anyway :P

Another point for everyone interested - make sure you're aware of the wide range of styles of webcomics at the moment. In terms of art I would ideally be looking for something of an anime style, but all styles will be considered, and feel free to take inspiration from the following webcomics:

http://www.freakangels.com/?p=22
http://www.paranormalmysterysquad.com/strips-pms/do_you_see_our_target
http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/1
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

Obviously, each of these evolved over time with their art styles as the artists improved their techniques, so take from that what you will...

Based on your current schedule, is there a specific day that you're looking for your releases to occur? This would greatly help those of us who are bound to a job.

overpuce:
Based on your current schedule, is there a specific day that you're looking for your releases to occur? This would greatly help those of us who are bound to a job.

Hmmmm, to be honest, probably once a week, every Friday. Though the schedule is subject to change before anything is decided, as are most issues here. Really, it would depend on the artist's speed at putting out decent work, my own speed at writing, and the day-to-day lives of everyone involved. One thing is certain though, I would have no intention of doing a VG Cats and going weeks or even months without an update...

I wish you luck in your find and use this post as a semi-bump for your endeavors. I tried a hand at my own webcomic and it pretty much failed miserably, but it was an interesting learning experience nonetheless. My suggestion to you is to get a good chunk of the story and comics done before you release and don't fall for the trap of wanting to release so soon, no matter how tempting it is.

Jumplion:
I wish you luck in your find and use this post as a semi-bump for your endeavors. I tried a hand at my own webcomic and it pretty much failed miserably, but it was an interesting learning experience nonetheless. My suggestion to you is to get a good chunk of the story and comics done before you release and don't fall for the trap of wanting to release so soon, no matter how tempting it is.

Thanks :). Yeah, a policy I intend to use is to always have a large buffer of strips, wherever possible, and use guest comics if necessary to pad out any gaps where we would be unable to update for whatever reason. Basically the same as what a lot of professional webcomic creators do :)

It would depend significantly on pay, for me. I take it this is not a paid position as a start-up? You can check my stuff out here.

Fightgarr:
It would depend significantly on pay, for me. I take it this is not a paid position as a start-up? You can check my stuff out here.

That is actually pretty damn amazing, and it fits the look and feel of what I'm trying to find perfectly :D. Would you be interested by any chance in doing just a brief test image of one of the characters or something if I gave you some details, just to be sure?

Regarding pay, yeah, at first it would be unpaid but then a paid position later from advertising revenue, and merchadise if it becomes big enough. That being said, for someone with enough talent I'd be more than happy to pay a negotiable modest fee (not much though to be honest as I only work part-time myself) as a start-up salary to secure such talents :).

Okay, a very brief update - thanks to the nature of the position and the fact that people do have lives, chances are it wouldn't be quite as frequent an update schedule as I previously stated. Possibly one strip every three days or so, or rather, three times per week. A little bit easier for whoever wants to get involved here :D

Just as a heads up: You might want to check out a thread called The artist in thee to find users with artistic inclinations.
Yes, I do post there myself, but don't take this as me advertising myself. I wouldn't be able to draw a webcomic. I have far too little experience. Drawing takes me a very long time, I can't draw efficiently or maintain a consistent style, and I'm colour blind. Nor do I have a tablet or any such art supplies.

Fightgarr in particular creates absolutely gorgeus stuff. Ah, I see he has already posted here.

Fightgarr:
It would depend significantly on pay, for me. I take it this is not a paid position as a start-up? You can check my stuff out here.

WHY DIDNT YOU TELL ME YOU WERE SUCH AN ACCOMPLISHED ARTIST?!
Please tell me its because you didn't tell me and I'm not that oblivious.

Anyway, Trivun, any luck?

Trivun:
That is actually pretty damn amazing, and it fits the look and feel of what I'm trying to find perfectly :D. Would you be interested by any chance in doing just a brief test image of one of the characters or something if I gave you some details, just to be sure?

Regarding pay, yeah, at first it would be unpaid but then a paid position later from advertising revenue, and merchadise if it becomes big enough. That being said, for someone with enough talent I'd be more than happy to pay a negotiable modest fee (not much though to be honest as I only work part-time myself) as a start-up salary to secure such talents :).

Thank you. Unfortunately I'm on such a schedule that I can't really take on any new unpaid side projects. I'm just too busy; not just with art, but it's summertime which means that QA at my company is ramping up significantly so I'm working all kinds of QA overtime. I think, at the moment at least, I am not the artist you seek. Good luck. I hope you can find someone willing to take on the project.

Jonluw:
Fightgarr in particular creates absolutely gorgeus stuff. Ah, I see he has already posted here.

Thank you very much.

Erana:
WHY DIDNT YOU TELL ME YOU WERE SUCH AN ACCOMPLISHED ARTIST?!
Please tell me its because you didn't tell me and I'm not that oblivious.

Hmm... I'm trying to think if we've ever had a conversation about my being an artist, on IRC. I don't think it's a secret or anything, though, as I'm sure Nuke or LaCoil would verify. I'm one of the more active posters in the long-running 'artist in thee' thread and I founded the "Escape Artists" group. I suppose some things just tend to slip by. Nevertheless, thank you for the compliment.

Too much exposition, just tell me what the fuck to draw.

Erana:

Fightgarr:
It would depend significantly on pay, for me. I take it this is not a paid position as a start-up? You can check my stuff out here.

WHY DIDNT YOU TELL ME YOU WERE SUCH AN ACCOMPLISHED ARTIST?!
Please tell me its because you didn't tell me and I'm not that oblivious.

Anyway, Trivun, any luck?

A little, yeah, I've had people PM me about it and I've set them a brief test so I can see their art style and how they approach the job :).

CODE-D:
Too much exposition, just tell me what the fuck to draw.

If you want to have a go, I'll give you the same quick test I've given others ;). Simply draw the three main characters - Luna, Scarlett and Gabriel. Here's a brief description of each one, aside from that draw it however you want to :).

Trivun:
Update frequency - probably every week. I was thinking a 'Freakangels'-style update schedule, that is, one weekly update but have five strips added at that time.

Content per update - again, five strips ideally per update, probably between six and ten panels per strip (but this can vary depending on the size of panels and what's happening - roughly the same length for each, though).

30 to 50 panels per week? 4 to 7 panels a day? Wow. Can't help you with that pace for less than what I make in the job I'd have to quit to paint full-time for you. Sorry.

Trivun:
.

I like doing character concepts
image

Shoqiyqa:

Trivun:
Update frequency - probably every week. I was thinking a 'Freakangels'-style update schedule, that is, one weekly update but have five strips added at that time.

Content per update - again, five strips ideally per update, probably between six and ten panels per strip (but this can vary depending on the size of panels and what's happening - roughly the same length for each, though).

30 to 50 panels per week? 4 to 7 panels a day? Wow. Can't help you with that pace for less than what I make in the job I'd have to quit to paint full-time for you. Sorry.

Yeah, I have been thinking about that for a while actually. I'l update it now, since it is a pretty stupid amount to do. I guess my reasoning failed when I forgot to take into account that the Freakangels team (where I got the idea for that schedule) happen to also be a team of proffesionals who work in the UK comic industry as a career :P

CODE-D:

Trivun:
.

I like doing character concepts
image

That is pretty damn awesome :D. You have actually put to paper almost my exact vision, especially for Scarlett, though to be honest (not nitpicking here) I always imagine Luna as having a longer skirt. But otherwise, that's amazing. Would you be interested in drawing anything else related to the project, by any chance? Whether that be merely further concept drawings or actually being considered for the position?

Trivun:

Shoqiyqa:

Trivun:
Update frequency - probably every week. I was thinking a 'Freakangels'-style update schedule, that is, one weekly update but have five strips added at that time.

Content per update - again, five strips ideally per update, probably between six and ten panels per strip (but this can vary depending on the size of panels and what's happening - roughly the same length for each, though).

30 to 50 panels per week? 4 to 7 panels a day? Wow. Can't help you with that pace for less than what I make in the job I'd have to quit to paint full-time for you. Sorry.

Yeah, I have been thinking about that for a while actually. I'l update it now, since it is a pretty stupid amount to do. I guess my reasoning failed when I forgot to take into account that the Freakangels team (where I got the idea for that schedule) happen to also be a team of proffesionals who work in the UK comic industry as a career :P

CODE-D:

Trivun:
.

I like doing character concepts
image

That is pretty damn awesome :D. You have actually put to paper almost my exact vision, especially for Scarlett, though to be honest (not nitpicking here) I always imagine Luna as having a longer skirt. But otherwise, that's amazing. Would you be interested in drawing anything else related to the project, by any chance? Whether that be merely further concept drawings or actually being considered for the position?

Though I would like to I doubt im near the professional level that you would want(though I did this drawing in about 30 minutes(not to toot my own horn*cough*)), My strength right now is really concepts which I would be glad to do. But as for doing the work, well I be glad to do that too but I still need to master inking, and putting panels together.(as I have my own ideas for stories)
I also dont have any software like pros do so I suggest you find someone who can do that stuff. But I can try to do what I can with whats asked.

CODE-D:


Though I would like to I doubt im near the professional level that you would want(though I did this drawing in about 30 minutes(not to toot my own horn*cough*)), My strength right now is really concepts which I would be glad to do. But as for doing the work, well I be glad to do that too but I still need to master inking, and putting panels together.(as I have my own ideas for stories)
I also dont have any software like pros do so I suggest you find someone who can do that stuff. But I can try to do what I can with whats asked.

Okay then, I'll continue my search, but I'll definitely be keeping you in mind. I may ask for some more concept drawings later if you don't mind doing things other than characters too, but that's entirely up to you, no pressure from this end :).

Also people, if anyone wants to know more about the project before they get in touch, I'll be starting to write a full synopsis of the plot for the first main storyline later tonight, so just ask if you want to see it. I do have long-term plans for the story, so it is a major undertaking and a long-term commitment...

I would rethink that update schedule, it takes a VERY dedicated artist to update 3 pages a week.

The reason why web comics have such a high death rate is because the artist can't keep up with the updates and work a full time job (or attend school, depending on the age and education of the artist)

It's a harsh reality but no partner is going to be as dedicated to your story as you are, you'll probably have better luck asking for one page. That's more doable for somebody who works 40 hours a week. Also less pages will allow the artist to dedicate more time to making that one page look awesome, as your story deserves.

This sounds like a lot of fun but sadly i too have to pass... as i have 2 comic book projects of my own, and i recently took up writing erotica.

but good luck!

Beautiful Tragedy:
This sounds like a lot of fun but sadly i too have to pass... as i have 2 comic book projects of my own, and i recently took up writing erotica.

but good luck!

Erotica, you say? Sounds kinky!

What? It does! That's what erotica is, right? ;D

Eclpsedragon:
I would rethink that update schedule, it takes a VERY dedicated artist to update 3 pages a week.

The reason why web comics have such a high death rate is because the artist can't keep up with the updates and work a full time job (or attend school, depending on the age and education of the artist)

It's a harsh reality but no partner is going to be as dedicated to your story as you are, you'll probably have better luck asking for one page. That's more doable for somebody who works 40 hours a week. Also less pages will allow the artist to dedicate more time to making that one page look awesome, as your story deserves.

Well, I did bring it down to three pages a week from five, so I guess I'm a bit reluctant to bring it down further, but if it helps then I will. And you do make a good point there :)

Trivun:

Beautiful Tragedy:
This sounds like a lot of fun but sadly i too have to pass... as i have 2 comic book projects of my own, and i recently took up writing erotica.

but good luck!

Erotica, you say? Sounds kinky!

What? It does! That's what erotica is, right? ;D

hehe, it's especially fun to write it, when it get's the author all hot and bothered ;)

Beautiful Tragedy:

Trivun:

Beautiful Tragedy:
This sounds like a lot of fun but sadly i too have to pass... as i have 2 comic book projects of my own, and i recently took up writing erotica.

but good luck!

Erotica, you say? Sounds kinky!

What? It does! That's what erotica is, right? ;D

hehe, it's especially fun to write it, when it get's the author all hot and bothered ;)

Haha, as a writer I can fully agree, even if I haven't really delved into erotica myself outside a coupleof short stories ;D. Even then it was only implied, but still...

(kind of went through a Twilight-style writing phase in my youth, though I'd think my own work was still better written than those books...)

Trivun:

Beautiful Tragedy:

Trivun:

Erotica, you say? Sounds kinky!

What? It does! That's what erotica is, right? ;D

hehe, it's especially fun to write it, when it get's the author all hot and bothered ;)

Haha, as a writer I can fully agree, even if I haven't really delved into erotica myself outside a coupleof short stories ;D. Even then it was only implied, but still...

(kind of went through a Twilight-style writing phase in my youth, though I'd think my own work was still better written than those books...)

I've never read them, so i wouldn't have a reference point, but what was meant to be 3-5000 words is over 7000 with no end in sight!

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