Now, in the past couple of weeks the over sexualisation of women in popular media has been discussed very often and i don't really want to talk about that here.
Often the point comes up that men are sexualised, too, with the counter argument that strong men are a power fantasy for other man and not a sexy, beautifull image for women.
Now what i have been thinking about is:
What would be a female "Power fantasy"?
This Question goes to the female members of the escapist.
I want to make clear here: I don't really mean "Power" fantasy, what i mean is, what would be the idealized image of a women as a character, for another women.
Like a big, muscular guy, is the idealized image of a man, for other men.
It doesn't actually need to have something to do with Power.
So Ladys, i am curious, what do you say?

I guess Alyx Vance in Half Life is a good example of a Female that is very female, but not in your face about what her sex is. She is intelligent, brave, but still human and sensitive.

Another might be Samantha Carter in Stargate: SG1, or Ripley in Alien.

Honestly, the more the years go by the more the differences in Males and Females matter less I think. It doesn't matter to me thats for sure.

A big, muscular guy is about as far as you can get from 'this' male.

I can see how the industry can be hostile towards women at times. Most videogame developers are men, and they are trying to make money by appealing to what they know people like and most guys happen to like skimpy females unfortunatly.

I agree with Alyx Vance, I don't think I can top that as an example at the moment, but I'm feeling pretty braindead. Maybe Femshep depending on how she's played, or maybe I'm only thinking that because I'm playing ME at the moment. Bonnie from Red Dead perhaps, or Samus Aran, though I've never actually played any Metroid games, just watched LPs.

Amaror:
snip

Power fantasy is the wrong word, because there are no socially acceptable avenues for a female power fantasy. Yeah, we could talk about characters like Ripley from the alien series, but they're not female identification fantasies, they're tomboys - they're women who can fill in as socially acceptable substitutes for men in films which call for a female character to do "man stuff".

There's a book called Female Masculinity by Judith Halberstam which I'd recommend if you're interested in the portrayal of butch women and tomboys in film, but it's off topic for now so that's all I'm going to say.

What we're talking about more generally here are identification fantasies. We aren't looking for characters who are just "powerful", we're looking for characters who the audience can relate to as realistically expressing their own gender in a kind of idealized or perfected way.

For men this leads to Rambo, for women it leads to Bella Swan.

And while I'm not going to say Rambo is a terribly good image of masculinity to aspire to, or that it's terribly good for society. But it's certainly more effectual, more useful to men, and more interesting than some whiny bitch who derives her sum worth from a) being stalked by guys, b) suffering attempted sexual assault by guys, c) staying a virgin until marriage.

Okay, I'm exagerating here, but the point is that there's no equivalence between these positions. Just because male fantasies about having disproportionate muscles to show that you're strong and tough and worthy as a man are socially acceptable doesn't mean there must be some equivalent for women which is equally socially acceptable. That's actually how inequality works nowadays, it's not law any more, it's a series of unconscious double standards which appear in everyday life. This is one of them.

Positive images of femininity are usually not things in their own right, historically (and still generally today) a woman's self worth has been purely about her ability to appeal to men through a subordinate position. That's the traditional female "power fantasy", the state of being desired by men so men will do things for you and make your life easier.

Depressing, right?

Strange how only characters who are competent, tough, intelligent, pragmatic etc (good qualities for any person) who are female are held up as good female characters. Ive never seen someone say a well written character who is female is a good female character if she isnt pretty much completely good qualities. I understand the want to be shown as good is a strong one, a believable reaction to empty female characters which are fairly common in (even good) games, movies, literature etc, but I feel such a requirement for good female character ignores plenty of good female characters who arent great as people. To me this idealised image of a good female character is what women would consider their power fantasy because these characters are what they seem to latch on to.

The female characters in the cartoon series Avatar are really fucking awesome and well written. They're strong and some of them are beautiful, but they're never sexualised. Even when I was a kid, the first thing that jumped out at me when I watched the Last Airbender was how shockingly non-sexist it was. You know something's wrong when the lack of sexism is blatantly obvious.

I mean, look at Korra. Her shirt is skin tight but it is used to accentuate her muscles, not enormous breasts. When she fights she has force behind her blows, she doesn't dance around pulling compromising and ineffective poses desingned to show off her flexibility instead of her strength. She's fucking badass, and while I don't necessarily like her character since I think she can be mean and selfish, not to mention downright stupid occasionally, that is because she is a Flawed Human and not a Dumb Woman.

Edit: Yeah, I just sort of completely ignored your question and decided to explain what I consider to be a good female character because that is what I wanted to talk about. Sorry about that.

Keep in mind, I'm totally not a woman. Like seriously, I barely have any breasts at all. So me answering this makes me an oppressive nazi or something, probably.

However! Here is my answer; Medea.
Medea is the greek play about the woman who killed her children in order to get revenge on her disloyal husband. I would use a spoiler tag but it is literally millennia old so I think it's okay. And most people know the story. I digress.

Even though Medea is obviously not an idol for women morally speaking, neither are a lot of male power fantasy characters, and she still embodies a female power fantasy.

How so? Women are generally thought of as being more emotionally intelligent than men. True or not, it's a recurring perception. Medea displays astounding emotional intelligence and she is an amazing manipulator. Everyone she encounters she uses as a means to her ends. She uses nothing but words and wits to turn kings and warriors into halfwits helping her succeed. Her ruthlessness is incredible, as is her ability to control everyone around her.

So yeah. There's a power fantasy for women.

Want a more contemporary example?

Lyra Belacqua/Lyra Silvertongue from His Dark Materials. Or Azula from Avatar: Legend of Aang.

She's similar to Medea in that she's very good at playing people and, like Medea, her bitterness and lust for revenge unhinges her, which could maybe be called a pattern if we had more examples. I mean, where male power fantasy has the downfall of a violent life that is overly-destructive, the female equivalent is self-destructive.

So yeah. In my eyes, the female power fantasy is a woman who is able to manipulate anyone through intense understanding and quick witted-ness.

Ultrajoe:
Very telling, then, that society (for good reason) would and does consider these individuals villains and reprehensible. Contrast this with Rambo and other male power fantasies (to use an earlier example), who we idolize despite being just as reprehensible.

This thread has broadened my understanding of gender perception differences, and given me an excellent example and provocative question to use in further discussion.

Thank you, OP.

I was hoping someone would say that, I was noticing it too. And thank you, OP indeed, a very interesting topic.

That said, I loved the play Medea and rooted for her character nearly all the way. It's almost comical how you stop sympathizing with her.

It's like "Yeah, go Medea, show that jerk, manipulate him and... Uh, kill his new wife by burning her alive, that's sort of drastic, but I guess do what you gotta do and, Oh, Meddz, what are you doing to your kids, Medea, I was on your side, leave your kids alo-ooh dear..."

But yeah, we as a society tend to depict women as treacherous and evil when they are powerful. Go figure.

I'm a guy, so this is all male conjecture.

I think female "power" fantasy is the wrong term, as women generally aren't as focused on being the most powerful, dominant, awesome person in their fantasies, at least not in the way guys are.

Elizabeth Bennet or Anne of Green Gables would be my experience of a female rolemodel character: Someone who has their own opinions and isn't afraid to step on the toes of social tradition, yet is able to successfully function within that tradition to rise to a position of comfort and influence. They can finding a man who complements them, while not controlling them, who is as much their equal and friend as he is their lover.

evilthecat:

snip

Hero in a half shell:

snip

Yeah, i said at the end of the post, that i am not looking for an actual "power" fantasy and that i just used that word, because it was used for the male equivalent.

And Bella Swan, really? I don't think that being some helpless toy in the affairs of men, who are all better in everything than you, is something very desirable.
Maybe in the way that she still controlls the men in some way, i don't know...

evilthecat:

Amaror:
snip

Power fantasy is the wrong word, because there are no socially acceptable avenues for a female power fantasy. Yeah, we could talk about characters like Ripley from the alien series, but they're not female identification fantasies, they're tomboys - they're women who can fill in as socially acceptable substitutes for men in films which call for a female character to do "man stuff".

There's a book called Female Masculinity by Judith Halberstam which I'd recommend if you're interested in the portrayal of butch women and tomboys in film, but it's off topic for now so that's all I'm going to say.

What we're talking about more generally here are identification fantasies. We aren't looking for characters who are just "powerful", we're looking for characters who the audience can relate to as realistically expressing their own gender in a kind of idealized or perfected way.

For men this leads to Rambo, for women it leads to Bella Swan.

And while I'm not going to say Rambo is a terribly good image of masculinity to aspire to, or that it's terribly good for society. But it's certainly more effectual, more useful to men, and more interesting than some whiny bitch who derives her sum worth from a) being stalked by guys, b) suffering attempted sexual assault by guys, c) staying a virgin until marriage.

Okay, I'm exagerating here, but the point is that there's no equivalence between these positions. Just because male fantasies about having disproportionate muscles to show that you're strong and tough and worthy as a man are socially acceptable doesn't mean there must be some equivalent for women which is equally socially acceptable. That's actually how inequality works nowadays, it's not law any more, it's a series of unconscious double standards which appear in everyday life. This is one of them.

Positive images of femininity are usually not things in their own right, historically (and still generally today) a woman's self worth has been purely about her ability to appeal to men through a subordinate position. That's the traditional female "power fantasy", the state of being desired by men so men will do things for you and make your life easier.

Depressing, right?

So a female power fantasy is to have power over men. I fucking knew it.

Man here, giving his two cents on this. I think what the ideal woman in this thing would be a woman who's tough, but still having her sensitive side, and also being able to handel herself in a chrisis. A good example that I can think of is Ripley from the Alien series, from what I've seen of it.

...

After reading some things in this thread, I really wanna see some sort of female Rambo now...a sweaty, muscley gal who kills shit up in the jungles...>.>

...

Uh, where was I? I lost my train of thought.

I'll use firefly as my reference.

here you go, a good female character.

A female "power" fantasy?

It probably involves the woman in question exercising some form of control over her social environment to get what she wants (whatever it is) whenever she wants it.

You know, like a BAWS Queen.

ResonanceSD:
I'll use firefly as my reference.
here you go, a good female character.

I'm not sure people want to be her, being slightly mad. I would've thought zoe.

But I'm not a woman, so I really don't know :/

evilthecat:
Positive images of femininity are usually not things in their own right, historically (and still generally today) a woman's self worth has been purely about her ability to appeal to men through a subordinate position. That's the traditional female "power fantasy", the state of being desired by men so men will do things for you and make your life easier.

Manji187:
A female "power" fantasy?

It probably involves the woman in question exercising some form of control over her social environment to get what she wants (whatever it is) whenever she wants it.

You know, like a BAWS Queen.

Pretty sure there are otome games based around this.

I know some people have a problem with her being too "manly", but for me personally Ellen Ripley from Alien is my "power fantasy." She's possibly my favourite movie character ever and represents a lot of what I personally admire and aspire to. I'm also a huge Eowyn fan, but I imagine she has the same "problems" with just being a "tomboy" or man-substitute. Just bear in mind that some of us do look up to characters like that...

In more broadly appealing terms, I think Firefly has some great examples of good female characters, and they're all very different women so there's something for everyone. With the exception of River, who seems to me to represent adolescence and isn't exactly independent, I'd say all of the major female characters could be considered "female power fantasies." Some people might have issues with Inara (though personally I don't), but Zoe and Kaylee are great. Joss Whedon does female characters well, mostly because he actually treats them as whole characters. He's considered a feminist by many.

evilthecat:
snip

Umm... you do raise some interesting points, but how many adult women do you really know who aspire to be like Bella Swan? There may be some, but she's designed to appeal to pre-teens and teenagers and is something of a fantasy for girls in that age group, but not for many women.

I nominate Xena as a power fantasy, as she was mine when I was younger.
I loved Xena - there was a period when I'd watch it every Saturday and spend much of my free time fighting with sticks and trying cool jumps off my trampoline. As a character she just kicked so much damn ass, and was clearly intelligent. She knew what needed to be done and was willing to do it. She also had a great backstory and wasn't always a "good" person, although she was working towards redeeming herself.
To me, she was the perfect hero.

ResonanceSD:
I'll use firefly as my reference.

Every Joss Whedon character is basically Joss Whedon wrapped in a generic archetype. In the case of River Tam, a mysterious crazy chick.

I think the female equivalent of a male power fantasy like James Bond is someone like Lady Gaga.

My contribution:

Commander Shepard springs to mind, Lara Croft, female Hawke. I love my Fallout characters too.

Seriously women don't want much different to men in our power fantasy. We just want to be heroes. Hell, I wanted to be Indiana Jones, Han Solo and James Bond when I was little.

Moonlight Butterfly:
Commander Shepard springs to mind, Lara Croft, female Hawke. I love my Fallout characters too.

Seriously women don't want much different to men in our power fantasy. We just want to be heroes. Hell, I wanted to be Indiana Jones, Han Solo and James Bond when I was little.

Yes, pretty much this.
It's funny to see people umming and aahhing over the fact that some women might want to be powerful.
I also love Ripley. She may be tomboyish but so am I.

GeneralTwinkle:

ResonanceSD:
I'll use firefly as my reference.
here you go, a good female character.

I'm not sure people want to be her, being slightly mad. I would've thought zoe.

But I'm not a woman, so I really don't know :/

Not a woman either.

That character was the equivalent of the wave of overpowered loli characters in anime these days. You know, little kids who are all adorable and cute, but are somehow capable battleship commanders or something similar.

I mean for most part in the TV show, she needed to be protected from the big evil alliance douches. Sure, she is a badass in fights, but not what I would call a good female character.

I am really biased on this, I am not a big fan of modern feminist who at each turn tell me how much society gives me when in truth, I don't get anything from said society.

For me a good female character is not Alyx "Mary Sue" Vance, but Bayonetta. She is powerful, she can handle herself without needing help, and by help, I mean you-do-all-the-work-while-i-act-supportive-and-normal from Gordon or that totally unimportant sidekick in Bayonetta. How did Bayonetta get there? Did she need the man? Did she need to be pampered by giving her a role that was meant for the man? No, she worked her butt (<3) to get there. She is powerful, not because she has to be powerful, but because she is. That's good character. Not Alyx Vance, not that little princess who needs rescuing every-time from a great turtle, or that awful character in Dark Age of Might & Magic, which sadly was a good game.

And yes, Avatar, the last airbender. That's how you create female characters. They are being given power or position not just because they are women, but because they are working their ass off to show that they are worth the power they are holding. They can hold their own, and win in fights that are "usually" reserved for the male characters to win in these type of TV Shows. That's equality, working all the way up against all odds, and being on par and defeating their enemies without needing to be saved by the man. All right, I'm not saying, you don't need to have safety nets in modern society for equal chances, but within the world of Avatar, it was great seeing how these female characters develop. They are not trying to steal the show, by being all Girl Power, but they are on equal footing with the male characters, which is fantastic.

Take a look at Naruto: you might have powerful female characters, but they always end up losing in the battle, and it's up to the male to save the days. One of my favorite show, but when you think about it, the author needs a good wake up call about how to write female characters.

Moonlight Butterfly:
Commander Shepard springs to mind, Lara Croft, female Hawke. I love my Fallout characters too.

Seriously women don't want much different to men in our power fantasy. We just want to be heroes. Hell, I wanted to be Indiana Jones, Han Solo and James Bond when I was little.

This. I still believe a character creator should be a must in a every single game. However, what about female support characters? Should they be like Alyx Vance, or Bayoneta? And by B, I don't mean has to be sexy, but powerful and be their own character rather than needing to be rescued by the protagonist at every turn.

Uh,

Basic rules for me to enjoy a female character:

REAL- She has to have some flaws, even if small.

CONTEXT- If she is supposed to be a normal human, please do not put 5000 lb swords on her.

STRENGTHS- they have to be good too. It can't just be - She wuvs the lead character very much. or some crap like that.

Now, when I want to play what I would call a badass female character, certain things are added in:

SLIGHT BITS OF REALISM- As in. If you want 1200 lb swords, she is not simply human. She is Hulk woman. A woman that uses a bow must not have FFF bra size.

PERSONALITY- I despise when its a whiny woman character just as much as I dislike a whiny male character. You can hurt and suffer, but I want it to match the character. Please don't make this supposed badass cry every twelve minutes. please.

cainx10a:
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I agree wholeheartedly with Avatar The Last Airbender being an excellent example of truly good female characters. They even did a female villain amazingly well. Their new avatar Korra is amazing, I said to a friend that I have never been as drawn in so much with a show. I am truly anxious for her.

I would like female sidekicks to be appropriate for the story really. But it never should be forgotten that we are just people like everyone else. Loved Veronica and Cass in Fallout Vegas. They were flawed and had troubles and concerns like everyone else.

Phasmal:

Moonlight Butterfly:
Commander Shepard springs to mind, Lara Croft, female Hawke. I love my Fallout characters too.

Seriously women don't want much different to men in our power fantasy. We just want to be heroes. Hell, I wanted to be Indiana Jones, Han Solo and James Bond when I was little.

Yes, pretty much this.
It's funny to see people umming and aahhing over the fact that some women might want to be powerful.
I also love Ripley. She may be tomboyish but so am I.

Thirded. I always wanted (hell, I still want) to be a hero. People who complain about female characters who are "just men with boobs" are missing the point- traditionally heroic characters are aspirational fantasies for some humans. Gender doesn't come into it. True, not everyone is inspired by these characters and we do need variety, but that goes for both genders.

EDIT: to expand on this, my personal power fantasies in gaming are my Bioware RPG characters: my Shepard and my Grey Warden. Both are straightforward, traditionally "male" hero classes (soldier and warrior, specialised berserker respectively) and wouldn't be all that different at all if they were dudes. In contrast to myself, since I nearly always choose tanking characters, my boyfriend prefers more "fragile" (in terms of physical strength and armour) builds like mages and finds he can relate to them more.

The problem is not that characters like this are "too male" to be considered strong female characters, but that these attributes are perceived as exclusively "male" in the first place.

Moonlight Butterfly:

cainx10a:
snip

I agree wholeheartedly with Avatar The Last Airbender being an excellent example of truly good female characters. They even did a female villain amazingly well. Their new avatar Korra is amazing, I said to a friend that I have never been as drawn in so much with a show. I am truly anxious for her.

I would like female sidekicks to be appropriate for the story really. But it never should be forgotten that we are just people like everyone else. Loved Veronica and Cass in Fallout Vegas. They were flawed and had troubles and concerns like everyone else.

I bought FNV since release, but have yet to really play it. I got discouraged when my save files were corrupted, and my very evil guy couldn't go around making people feel miserable about their lives. Though I still remember assassinating Cass though for those gunsmiths gang/trader or whatever they were. :P

I should add my favorite female characters in a video game so far were Bayonetta, and Bioware's female characters, be it Commander Shepard or Morrigan or Ashley.

Rose and Thorn:

Another might be Samantha Carter in Stargate: SG1, or Ripley in Alien.

I am glad I am not the only one who thought of Carter!

As a woman, characters like Gloria (DMC4) and Bayonetta have always struck me as female power fantasies. They're not tomboys. They're not trying to be men (as if female qualities are inherently a weakness). They're powerful women who dominate the situations they enter. And they're just as overblown as Superman.

I've always loved watching the scene in DMC4 when Nero encounters Gloria. While she swaggers about - having fun playing to the camera - he's left perplexed and uncomfortable.

One of the greatest power fantasies for a woman is to be able to have that sort of affect on men. To literally leave them stumbling over their words, unable to form a coherent thought. Then to walk away laughing. Being able to kick ass whilst wearing high heels is just bonus.

I'm sure plenty of guys like Gloria and Bayonetta too. Which begs the question: Why can't a character both be a sexual fantasy for men and a power fantasy for women? And does the fact that men can like very dominant female characters (without just feeling threatened by them) say something really positive?

evilthecat:

Amaror:
snip

Power fantasy is the wrong word, because there are no socially acceptable avenues for a female power fantasy. Yeah, we could talk about characters like Ripley from the alien series, but they're not female identification fantasies, they're tomboys - they're women who can fill in as socially acceptable substitutes for men in films which call for a female character to do "man stuff".

...

Positive images of femininity are usually not things in their own right, historically (and still generally today) a woman's self worth has been purely about her ability to appeal to men through a subordinate position. That's the traditional female "power fantasy", the state of being desired by men so men will do things for you and make your life easier.

Depressing, right?

Good points.

I'll agree "power" is not exactly a right word, but I do have an image of my 'ultimate form of self'. Firstly, I'm sort of what you could call post-feminist -- I'm totally not interested in tropes in media of ball-breaking, manly-strength, violently predatory chicks who are at the same time oversexualised and young. It seems pathetically overcompensatory in a distinctly juvenile male way.

I am, however, proud of my feminine qualities such as charity, care for others, resilience and wisdom. I guess I'm getting to the age where I'm actually discovering "mom qualities" in myself (I'm totally not a mom and I'm in my early 20s but I'm starting to respect and value these traits).

So, if I picture myself in the ultimate form, I would be someone that many people depend upon for care and wisdom, and also respect and fear (potentially) and trust me, and I'd have some serious skills in things that make everyone look up to me. That's probably how you can describe Femshep or a bunch of other game and movie heroines. But yeah, just highlighting how it's not strength or raw power, per se. It's an aura of respect that you can gain from a number of other traits like knowledge, resilience and beauty.

I think that is one thing that made Ripley's character admirable is her "maternal strength". For those of us who had amazing mothers, you'd know that admiration and respect for a woman who is both sensitive and tough, or even some of you guys know what it's like to have a woman partner who is dependable, dignified, and carries herself with a natural elegance, not necessarily sexual but awe-inspiring.

That is what I'd want to be :D

evilthecat:

Amaror:
snip

For men this leads to Rambo, for women it leads to Bella Swan.

I'm gonna have to disagree.
Maybe it's just me but I don't think that the idea of being powerful means either being male or being desired by men.
I don't long to be a blank slate that guys sigh at cause I'm oh-so-pretty. My power fantasies are more along the lines of having a gun and a fist that shoots lightning. I dont think that makes me particularly male. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not the girliest girl who ever girl'd but I am (as I imagine all people are) a mix of conforming to and rejecting societal expecatations.