What is Obamacare?

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lacktheknack:

Bertylicious:

Sober Thal:
People who can't afford healthcare, will be fined...

*sigh

Canada is looking better every day!

What do they do in Canada? Is it state run medical facilities or private?

State, although it's a bit of a mess right now. Centralization of the operations has resulted in hilarious wait times at any given hospital, three hours if you're lucky and two days if you're not.

I waited 20 minutes last time. It depends on what you're there for, and how busy the emergency room is. And even then, if you're bleeding or have chest pain, you go right to the front of the line. The problem is there are people who go there because they have a cold, and that adds an unnecessary drain to things.

AwkwardTurtle:

SciMal:
Snip

I don't know who you are, but thank you. That was really really fucking informative. I've seen this issue plastered all over the news, but I had no idea what the bill actually entailed other than it having something to do with health insurance.

That last point you mentioned about the "marketing" by the Republicans really reminds me of the things I don't like about the current American political situation (from my bare knowledge of it). The very idea of "Republican vs. Democrat" gives me a weird feeling because I feel like the initial ideal of having a two-party system is to have some varying viewpoints on things. However, the end result of that seems to be the creation of a completely binary system in which all Republicans must hate anything the Democrats want to do and vice versa and the average citizen is encouraged to simply pick a side. It simply strikes me as madness. Excuse my random ramblings.

I love you for teaching me about something political while being concise and to the point. <3

My pleasure.

Admittedly, you're not too far off on your intuition regarding the political parties, but it's a little more lop-sided than most can handle:

image

Republicans have been shifting their political spectrum to more Conservative extremes for about 30 years (at least according to Poole and Rosenthal of University of Georgia and New York University, respectively). With extremism comes the trend towards a binary "You're either with us or against us" system.

Take the info for what you will.

I love how quickly these things start.

Eldrig:
As a Canadian, I find it incomprehensible that it seems so many Americans will fight to the death to have to pay massive fees for proceedures that most people with a NHS would deem almost trivial. Sure, there are issues with Canada's health care service, but on the whole, in my opinion, the pros far outweigh the cons. Americans need to forget about the cold war and McCarthyism and realize socialism works well for many services.

Many Americans will fight to the death so that they aren't told what they must do.

Though admittedly, there are many more who are simply uninformed and think the government is trying to rid of or somehow undermine private insurers.

As far as socialism is concerned for every argument for it there's an equally important one against it. Hard to say who is right or wrong when practically the whole damn world is in economic crisis.

Evilpigeon:
snip...

Fine, you're ignoring the whole reason why civilisation exists (grouping together makes life easier, safer and better) but I agree we're fundamentally opposed.

Could have just left it at "I agree we're fundamentally opposed." but you really had to throw the last word in there... I hate the internet sometimes.

mindlesspuppet:

Eldrig:
As a Canadian, I find it incomprehensible that it seems so many Americans will fight to the death to have to pay massive fees for proceedures that most people with a NHS would deem almost trivial. Sure, there are issues with Canada's health care service, but on the whole, in my opinion, the pros far outweigh the cons. Americans need to forget about the cold war and McCarthyism and realize socialism works well for many services.

Many Americans will fight to the death so that they aren't told what they must do.

Though admittedly, there are many more who are simply uninformed and think the government is trying to rid of or somehow undermine private insurers.

As far as socialism is concerned for every argument for it there's an equally important one against it. Hard to say who is right or wrong when practically the whole damn world is in economic crisis.

Evilpigeon:
snip...

Fine, you're ignoring the whole reason why civilisation exists (grouping together makes life easier, safer and better) but I agree we're fundamentally opposed.

Could have just left it at "I agree we're fundamentally opposed." but you really had to throw the last word in there... I hate the internet sometimes.

Can't help it, sorry that's the thing with strong opinions. To be fair, the worst I called you was callous, I think I'm doing pretty damn well by internet standards.

Bertylicious:

Sober Thal:

Bertylicious:
What do they do in Canada? Is it state run medical facilities or private?

Publicly funded health care. Or as some 'people' in the states may call it, evil socialist communism. Everyone pays a little in taxes, and you (for the most part) don't have a bill when you visit a doctor.

But who owns the hospitals? Do the Doctors work for Doctor Corp. or do they work for the state?

As far as I understand it in the UK, the NHS docs are like bin men or any other council jobs (I guess Americans would call them districts or counties) they get paid by that council.

It isn't an exactly perfect system as there is such a thing as a postcode lottery, there have been many programmes about NHS and schooling.

Person A lives in an area where he can get a drug he needs to extend his life by a few years for free, person B with the same condition but lives just a few miles away with the same condition but has to pay for the exact same drug 'cos his post code is different and that council doesn't fund that drug.

I guess in that sense we are like America but honest I would rather be constantly paying a little bit over many years and maybe never use "my share" than to suddenly get something and have to find 50,000 to feel better.

We also get eye tests, trips to the dentist for free as long as we are unemployed.

]snip

The problem is the wait times. Don't get me wrong, I love my countries healthcare system, but it tends to get bogged down with technicalities. I'd still rather have free healthcare, but it's not perfect.

My country (Denmark) has tried to alleviate that by installing certain time frames for when you have to get treated, so when you pass that time limit for fx. cancer, you can go to a private hospital and the state will cover the cost. This has helped a bit, but there's still long lines of course =)

Still I feel that a line and taxes are better than some people not getting treated because they chose another path in life which doesn't give off that much cash.

Anyway, it's nice to get to know a bit more about obamacare =)

Aulleas123:
I can't wait for government mandated car insurance, food services, or dating services. I think that we'll definitely be a lot better with the government telling me who to date and what car insurance I should buy.

No, all states do not require car insurance but they do require financial responsibility to operate a vehicle on the roadway. While not all states require drivers to buy Liability insurance to show financial responsibility, 49 states (plus the District of Columbia) do. New Hampshire is the only state that does not have compulsory auto insurance liability laws, as of June 2010.

So a Federally mandated auto insurance bill wouldn't change much.

The FDA is a government funded food service that protects consumers from eating potentially hazardous food. Their standards are a big reason why (while it's not recommended by any means) you can - if you so choose - eat raw bacon without getting intestinal parasites. American food is some of the safest in the world because of the FDA, and it is also the sole reason why the United States has avoided things like the Thalidomide debacle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

Because the FDA doesn't regulate supplements, it's not uncommon for the producers of supplements (whether vitamins or herbal) to not follow any sort of standard procedure, which can result in stuff like this:

Protein Powder having too much heavy metals (Consumer Reports): image

Supplements containing wildly variable amounts of vitamins.

Supplements based on "Herbal Remedies" which can be very dangerous: http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/alternative/herbals_theheart.aspx

As for dating services?

I think you're on your own.

To me, it comes down to a very basic question: is health care a right or a privilege? I, for one, believe that it's more of a privilege and so I generally disagree with Obamacare.

This is pretty much the core of the issue. Some people have different ideas of what healthcare is or should be.

Luckily, we live in a Democracy where people can vote to elect people who will hopefully act or not-act on certain issues.

This contradicts what Obama said numerous times during his campaign. Both Obamacare's survival and it's rewording are going to hit his campaign hard in the next few months.

Obama never said he wouldn't raise taxes. Even if he did, every other President who has made similar claims also broke their promises.

Obama did say, once, that Obamacare wasn't a tax - but hasn't explicitly said it wasn't since.

May I suggest that all these people who are ready to pack up and go to Canada are the same ones who are mad as hell at 'all these damn Mexicans coming into America!' ? :)

I'd also suggest that when that damn muslim socialist president is taking away your freedoms to die horribly, it's one of those freedoms you can live without.

I get the feeling that people have been so sold by Romney that Obama's stealing something in some way, that they'd happily have a leg amputated, if only they could be sure that someone poorer than them is having both off.

Stop worrying that other people are benefiting from Obamacare and look into what advantages there are for you.

I do accept that, if it's true and you're going to get fined for not having enough money, then that's idiotic. If however, you're being made to choose between healthcare and donuts n beer, then that's different.

One thing I haven't seen raised yet, but should be, is the oncoming old age of the babyboom generation. Because the US never really invested in decent social services, now the healthcare system is becoming increasingly unafforable. Some people don't want insurance because the unregulated greed has driven up the prices and they don't think they need it (while anyone can have an accident) and some can't afford it.

And then people go to the ER, and need to be helped at taxpayers expense, for a lot of extra money, sometimes after their conditioned worsened due to not getting healthcare in time. At the same time the population ages.

So basically what the US is getting, is more need for healthcare, but fewer people paying for it, and the costs are spiralling out of control as a result.

One effect of the Affordable Care Act is to ensure that everybody pays to keep healthcare both affordable and accesible at the same time, even as the population ages.

What's the alternative? Waiting while one of the fundaments of US society slowly crumbles under the weight of the aging babyboom generation's healthcare demand.

TwiZtah:
Why in the fuck don't they just go with the scandinavian system (I think it is the whole of scandinavia) and tax everyone a few percent and then everyone gets free healthcare. If your medicine costs go over about 1000 SEK (about 140$) you get that money back and won't have to pay for medicine or hospital. Why would anyone have anything against a system like this?

Oh wait, Republicans... Why are they still alive?

Because Republicans believe that taxes were invented by the Devil (and Democrats are his minions). Seriously, people value their own wealth here more than they do the problems of others.

Xanthious:

Yep I am pretty sure. . . . . and can link websites too!

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2007/01/01/canadians-wait-longer-medical-care

http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2008/03/horrors-of-rationed-health-care-in.html

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/41396

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

The key is to link websites that have some legitimacy. Prariepundit, heartland news, city-journal.. sorry, not credible sources. The World Health Organization smacks of a bit more credibility to anyone with half a functioning brain.

I agree with the insurance side, but the bigger picture is far more grim. We do not have a national health care system in place currently, and as such many hospitals and clinics are privatized to allow for greater profit margins. Another thing that Obamacare will do is cut those profit margins to crap and enforce a standard pricing scheme. That means if you go in for an open heart surgery, and you have zero complications requiring more treatment, you will be charged a median price that is higher than you deserve to pay. At the same time the reverse is also true. By itself this isn't much of an issue, but they are also enforcing limits on doctors such as how many patients they can have, as well as the hours they keep (anyone related to a Doctor can tell you, that a Doctor pretty much works all the time if they have a full patient load.

These changes, along with the insurance plans, are intended to help the population. As such, I think it will short term. America's healtcare system will be great... for the next decade or so. The effect nobody talks about, is that Doctors specifically come to America from other countries so they can make more money. This means we lose our influx of Doctors. We also raised the prices of student loans, and consolidated them to a national loan office. So funding becomes more of an issue if you plan on going to medical school. Since Doctors retire daily (not to mention the ones being arrested by the DEA/FDA for "over prescribing") we will lose a fair share of our health care providers.

Those of you in Canada know what comes next. In a country where there is a shortage of doctors vs patients you end up only being able to treat the most sever cases in a timely manner. Everyone else will be forced to have months of delay before they can be seen. Granted America has too many hypochondriacs, we still have legitimate concerns that may not seem like emergency issues to us, but could be life threatening if left untreated.

So I guess what I'm saying is, since this passed, maybe we need an ObamaMD plan.

TwiZtah:
Why in the fuck don't they just go with the scandinavian system (I think it is the whole of scandinavia) and tax everyone a few percent and then everyone gets free healthcare. If your medicine costs go over about 1000 SEK (about 140$) you get that money back and won't have to pay for medicine or hospital. Why would anyone have anything against a system like this?

Oh wait, Republicans... Why are they still alive?

Well, one reason is that there's about nine million of us, but a buttload more Americans, which means our system would be much more difficult to implement.

Plus, our system is based on evil, nasty socialism. :P

TwiZtah:
Why in the fuck don't they just go with the scandinavian system (I think it is the whole of scandinavia) and tax everyone a few percent and then everyone gets free healthcare. If your medicine costs go over about 1000 SEK (about 140$) you get that money back and won't have to pay for medicine or hospital. Why would anyone have anything against a system like this?

Oh wait, Republicans... Why are they still alive?

Naw, its more along the lines of "14 trillion dollars in debt, and rising every day"
A extra tax of "a few percent" would cripple economic growth.

Anyone looking at the $190 fine needs to take a closer look.
It goes up in 2016 to $695 or 2.5% of your income, whichever is greater.

If you can't afford insurance now, how can you afford a $700 fine (or more) on the same pay?

If an employer is found (by the government who collects the money) to not have a complient program, they will be fined anywhere from $100/day to $2000 per employee.

Can you say goodbye small mom and pop businesses?

We are ALREADY paying into the program but will not recieve any benefits untill 2014.
That equals paying in for 10 years for only 6 years of services.

Sorry, I expect to recieve items/services at the time I pay for them, not years later.

And as for those saying that it is now going to be handled through the Tax Code so don't worry, do you really want your healthcare handled by the IRS?
Saying they dont have th eability to inforce this doesn't take into account the 1600 new agents they have just hired and (oh yeah) ARMED with military grade weapons.

I can see it now, to get your preexisting condition treated you have to fill out form 1040Bio, subtract your age, add the cost of treatment, refer to a table in the back of a booklet and after mailing it all in find that you figured it wrong and are only going to be issued some pain meds so you cant feel the cancer eating your body to death.

These are only a few items.
Folks need to look deeper into the 2700 pages of this bloated beast of a law, but they will no tbe allowed to see the whole thing.
To quote the people who came up with it "We had to first PASS the Law to be able to find out what is IN the Law."

I don't know about all of you, but even to my 13 year old niece obamacare stinks like last weeks sushi in the sahara.

SciMal:

What's ironic is that people very broadly support each individual tenet of Obamacare, but thanks to a very strong 'marketing' push last year by Republicans (including the 'Obamacare' monicker), most people somehow dislike "Obamacare" but love what it does when dissociated from the word.

Yeah, it's funny what propaganda can do to you.
I would rather we just skip to the socialist system where the government provides free healthcare, but this is a step in the right direction.

Republicans and FOX news try to shove stuff down peoples throats about how public healthcare kills everyone, "Oh what's that you need an operation? Well, you'll die two years before we can cure you!" Not.
Why are we ranked so low in medical care? I think Australia is above us, and they have SNAKE EATING SPIDERS, AND EVERY POISONOUS THING KNOWN TO MAN IN THEIR COUNTRY!
I mean, the platypus is even poisonous! They still have a lower chance of death in the 16-60 catagory. Dafuq?

FYI, the first part of what I wrote was somewhat tongue and cheek. But you definitely speak the truth, the government does have a lot of control over what we eat and our car insurance.

SciMal:

Aulleas123:
This contradicts what Obama said numerous times during his campaign. Both Obamacare's survival and it's rewording are going to hit his campaign hard in the next few months.

Obama never said he wouldn't raise taxes. Even if he did, every other President who has made similar claims also broke their promises.

Obama did say, once, that Obamacare wasn't a tax - but hasn't explicitly said it wasn't since.

As for this, Obama did state that he was not going to raise taxes for households under $250k a year in response to allegations that he was going to raise taxes if president.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8erePM8V5U - presented September 12, 2012 (video posted in February of 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=k8R7XqFd17A - Taking the president both on the campaign in 2008 and in the office, discussing health care

All I'm saying is that the president did make a very clear promise and this ruling violates that. If he wants to keep to his promise, then he should attempt to rework the bill, however I'm skeptical that he will do this.

MASTACHIEFPWN:
Republicans and FOX news try to shove stuff down peoples throats about how public healthcare kills everyone, "Oh what's that you need an operation? Well, you'll die two years before we can cure you!" Not.
Why are we ranked so low in medical care? I think Australia is above us, and they have SNAKE EATING SPIDERS, AND EVERY POISONOUS THING KNOWN TO MAN IN THEIR COUNTRY!
I mean, the platypus is even poisonous! They still have a lower chance of death in the 16-60 catagory. Dafuq?

Presumably most of the Australian politicians and media personalities actively out to destroy the country were eaten. The US needs to import more dangerous animals and mail them to Republicans, I guess.

PureChaos:
I was on Failblog just now for my daily giggle and there were a lot of things on there relating to Obamacare but, being from the UK, I've not heard anything about it. It seems to be a subject of a lot of debate whether or not it is a good idea but...what is it?

Essentially it creates Health-Care for people who can't actually afford Health-Care. A lot of people on the Republican side say that "The government should not interfere with our health coverage" but, as most stereotypes and people show. This is the old, white men and women saying this.

One of the republican candidates recently said that he would work to appeal Obama Care. My father was in the car and the first thing I said about this was "Because fuck the poor". Oh I'm sorry little Tiny Tim. Are both your legs broken? Well Mr. President just got rid of coverage that would help you heal better, so your just going to have to sport these neat little crutches for your whole entire life. Ya see? They have little spinners on them.

The biggest problem about Obamacare is the fact that it raises the taxes but in honesty we were needing this to happen, granted not to poor people but to the old, super rich guys who can afford seven brand-new-hummers and a years worth of gas for each one.

In conclusion, while this is a major step up from our old health care, its not as good as others yet.

TwiZtah:
Why in the fuck don't they just go with the scandinavian system (I think it is the whole of scandinavia) and tax everyone a few percent and then everyone gets free healthcare. If your medicine costs go over about 1000 SEK (about 140$) you get that money back and won't have to pay for medicine or hospital. Why would anyone have anything against a system like this?

Oh wait, Republicans... Why are they still alive?

Well, for every one person that dies of age then seven more will come to that age.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obama-Care is a step up from our old healthcare, but certainly isn't as good as other places.

Also, fuck you republic candidates that want to take Obamacare out of action. You may have never understood what its like to be poor but nothing sucks more then being denied the ability to get your limb you broke from a fall healed up because you can't afford to pay out-of-pocket for it, lose your job due to the broken limb then end up as a hobo because of losing everything because of one, smedging broken limb.

That is why one of my brothers friends had to come live with us. He broke his leg, barely afforded to get it fixed up but lost his job because of it, gets kicked out of his Sisters house because his parents died in a car-crash and we had to give him a place to stay and I would be damned if we didn't. Poor mate, that must have been a tough year.

Edible Avatar:

TwiZtah:
Why in the fuck don't they just go with the scandinavian system (I think it is the whole of scandinavia) and tax everyone a few percent and then everyone gets free healthcare. If your medicine costs go over about 1000 SEK (about 140$) you get that money back and won't have to pay for medicine or hospital. Why would anyone have anything against a system like this?

Oh wait, Republicans... Why are they still alive?

Naw, its more along the lines of "14 trillion dollars in debt, and rising every day"
A extra tax of "a few percent" would cripple economic growth.

As opposed to the in-place infrastructure that removes disposable income from the majority of americans in order to accumulate wealth into the top tier fraction of the nation, who do not encourage growth to the same degree, since the decrease in demand (thanks to lack of disposable income) means even though they have the money, they are less likely to invest in in productions, instead preferring to deal with banks and investing in established companies, be damned how that affects our economic growth?

Yeah...I'd rather more people be more willing to spend then live with the constant fear that any injury will bankrupt them. Demand tends to be what fuels growth after all...

Aulleas123:

All I'm saying is that the president did make a very clear promise and this ruling violates that. If he wants to keep to his promise, then he should attempt to rework the bill, however I'm skeptical that he will do this.

Good info.

I wouldn't expect him to. Expecting a President to not raise taxes - especially after what happened right before he took office - is a little absurd.

As far as the insurance requirement is concerned- it's not just forced charity.

There's heaps of people that wait till they get extremely sick or get sick, and then go to the ER.

So basically, if you don't have health insurance, don't have the money to pay ER bills at cash value, and don't go to the doctor by paying cash - you're part of the problem that this is trying to fix.

Well, unless you're willing to die for the belief that other people shouldn't take care of you in your time of need. The cost of those ER visits ends up passed onto the rest of society. And the cost of an ER visit in comparison to a doctor visit is ridiculous. Anywhere from 1000, to 20,000.

There's some hopes that this measure will curb costs of people using the ER as their primary healthcare provider and free up the ER for more urgent matters. Like, if you cut off your arm, or have a heart attack.

I'm not saying it's going to work, or that people shouldn't be able to opt out of the program and pretty much say, "I'm not going to a hospital if I get hurt- lemme die, bring on the pain".

However, I am saying that the ER won't refuse you care because you don't have money and people using the ER as their doctor is messed up. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act)

Basically, the government and taxpayers are already paying for these people - just more?

Inb4 - "I never get sick or hurt and I never will, ur wrong"

ShadowKatt:

Sober Thal:

Bertylicious:
What do they do in Canada? Is it state run medical facilities or private?

Publicly funded health care. Or as some 'people' in the states may call it, evil socialist communism. Everyone pays a little in taxes, and you (for the most part) don't have a bill when you visit a doctor.

While you don't have a bill though, the health care system in Canada...kinda...really sucks. The wait times are huge even for simple visits and the doctors tend to be highly rushed and stressed. Most visits come down to 'What are your symptoms? Here's a prescription". And that's for a simple visit. If you have more complex issues, like cancer, people have died waiting to get in to see a specialist.

While true, some of this can be laid down to the fact that a lot of doctors who train in Canada move to the US because they can make much bigger dollars there than if they work up here in our publicly funded system. So while visiting your doctor in Canada runs a cost of free to cheap, doctors don't want to work for a system that only pays out moderately and would much rather go down south and make a ton of murrikin munney.

As for the better technology, it also leads to increased costs. MRI's and such are ridiculously expensive procedures, and given that they can foot the bill to the customer it isn't hard to imagine that a lof of unnecessary high tech and high cost tests get used instead of equally effective low tech low cost ones.

Mt thing is this. I find it amusing that so many American conservatives are saying they should move to Canada cause of Obamacare due to 2 reasons.

We already have it and gay marriage. Quite frankly, we don't fucking want American conservatives comeing up here and expecting us to conform to their fucked up standards. Every one of you ignarant pricks who decide to come up to Canada should be greeted at the border by a bevy of drag queens and flaming gay boys to smother you in hugs and kisses.

Oh and abortion is legal and nothin you can do about it. Even our crazy conservatives under Harper have said (and thus far shown) they have no interest in re-opening those debates.

captcha: That's right... see even the captcha agrees stay the fuck in America

Sober Thal:
People who can't afford healthcare, will be fined...

*sigh

Canada is looking better every day!

Actually you don't get fined if you can't afford to buy health insurance. The gov't will pay your bill in that case.

Captcha: Lame Duck

Ashannon Blackthorn:
Mt thing is this. I find it amusing that so many American conservatives are saying they should move to Canada cause of Obamacare due to 2 reasons.

We already have it and gay marriage. Quite frankly, we don't fucking want American conservatives comeing up here and expecting us to conform to their fucked up standards. Every one of you ignarant pricks who decide to come up to Canada should be greeted at the border by a bevy of drag queens and flaming gay boys to smother you in hugs and kisses.

Oh and abortion is legal and nothin you can do about it. Even our crazy conservatives under Harper have said (and thus far shown) they have no interest in re-opening those debates.

captcha: That's right... see even the captcha agrees stay the fuck in America

Good timing too, its Gay Pride week in toronto!

DiMono:

lacktheknack:

Bertylicious:
What do they do in Canada? Is it state run medical facilities or private?

State, although it's a bit of a mess right now. Centralization of the operations has resulted in hilarious wait times at any given hospital, three hours if you're lucky and two days if you're not.

I waited 20 minutes last time. It depends on what you're there for, and how busy the emergency room is. And even then, if you're bleeding or have chest pain, you go right to the front of the line. The problem is there are people who go there because they have a cold, and that adds an unnecessary drain to things.

My Dad nearly severed his thumb = eighteen hours and a nurse checking his gauze every hour.

Which magical city do you live in?

When I looked at this thread I looked at the author it said "PureChaos." First thought fitting. Second thought not going to get involved.

Ashannon Blackthorn:
Mt thing is this. I find it amusing that so many American conservatives are saying they should move to Canada cause of Obamacare due to 2 reasons.

We already have it and gay marriage. Quite frankly, we don't fucking want American conservatives comeing up here and expecting us to conform to their fucked up standards. Every one of you ignarant pricks who decide to come up to Canada should be greeted at the border by a bevy of drag queens and flaming gay boys to smother you in hugs and kisses.

Oh and abortion is legal and nothin you can do about it. Even our crazy conservatives under Harper have said (and thus far shown) they have no interest in re-opening those debates.

captcha: That's right... see even the captcha agrees stay the fuck in America

Are you kidding, it would be comedic gold! They'd come up here and demand their shit expecting Fox News choppers to swing by and plaster their lunacy all over TV... and we'd ignore them. Because that's what you do when you run into crazies on the street, you keep walking or if they're making a big mess call the authorities.

Only our southern neighbors for some reason invented a third and fourth option: Put them on TV because "their opinion should be heard"[1], or put them in the Republican party where they spew the same brand of batshit insanity, only in better words and with a spin to pander to the corporate interests that own their shriveled excuses for souls.

[1] No, it fucking shouldn't. They should be locked up in the looney bin rather than talking on national television about how the gay mexicans are the fifth sign of the apocalypse according to the book of Mel Gibson which Pastor Billy-bob assures them is like, totes for real in the Bible

DaRigger420:
Anyone looking at the $190 fine needs to take a closer look.
It goes up in 2016 to $695 or 2.5% of your income, whichever is greater.

Which is about $60/mo, and still far, far less than actual insurance. I'm 27, 6'5" and 203lbs. (~98kg) and for a $5k deductible 20% co-pay plan with one acute injury for which I've had surgery, the company quoted me $125/mo.

If you can't afford insurance now, how can you afford a $700 fine (or more) on the same pay?

Hopefully by 2016 pay will increase and the Middle Class will take back some ground.

Also, certain religious groups and economic hardship are grounds for getting waivers for the tax. There are also government subsidies available if you make too much for Medicare but can't outright afford private insurance:

"These premium subsidies will be available for individuals and families with incomes between 133 percent and 400 percent of the poverty level, or $14,856 to $44,680 for individuals and $30,656 to $92,200 for a family of four (based on current poverty guidelines)." -http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2012/March/22/consumer-guide-health-law.aspx

If an employer is found (by the government who collects the money) to not have a complient program, they will be fined anywhere from $100/day to $2000 per employee.

Can you say goodbye small mom and pop businesses?

This only applies to businesses which have more than 50 employees. If you have fewer than 50 employees, you are not required to offer your employees insurance.

Also, it's just the $2000/employee - not $100/day.

You can use the numbers presented here: http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html

...and figure out that about 61% of businesses employee fewer than 50 employees, with 1-4 Employees being about 3x the size of any other partition.

We are ALREADY paying into the program but will not recieve any benefits untill 2014.
That equals paying in for 10 years for only 6 years of services.

Well, no, several provisions are already in-practice:

Effective at enactment

The Food and Drug Administration is now authorized to approve generic versions of biologic drugs and grant biologics manufacturers 12 years of exclusive use before generics can be developed.[48]
The Medicaid drug rebate for brand name drugs is increased to 23.1% (except the rebate for clotting factors and drugs approved exclusively for pediatric use increases to 17.1%), and the rebate is extended to Medicaid managed care plans; the Medicaid rebate for non-innovator, multiple source drugs is increased to 13% of average manufacturer price.[48]
A non-profit Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute is established, independent from government, to undertake comparative effectiveness research.[48] This is charged with examining the "relative health outcomes, clinical effectiveness, and appropriateness" of different medical treatments by evaluating existing studies and conducting its own. Its 19-member board is to include patients, doctors, hospitals, drug makers, device manufacturers, insurers, payers, government officials and health experts. It will not have the power to mandate or even endorse coverage rules or reimbursement for any particular treatment. Medicare may take the Institute's research into account when deciding what procedures it will cover, so long as the new research is not the sole justification and the agency allows for public input.[49] The bill forbids the Institute to develop or employ "a dollars per quality adjusted life year" (or similar measure that discounts the value of a life because of an individual's disability) as a threshold to establish what type of health care is cost effective or recommended. This makes it different from the UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence.
Creation of task forces on Preventive Services and Community Preventive Services to develop, update, and disseminate evidenced-based recommendations on the use of clinical and community prevention services.[48]
The Indian Health Care Improvement Act is reauthorized and amended.[48]
Chain restaurants and food vendors with 20 or more locations are required to display the caloric content of their foods on menus, drive-through menus, and vending machines. Additional information, such as saturated fat, carbohydrate, and sodium content, must also be made available upon request.[50] But first, the Food and Drug Administration has to come up with regulations, and as a result, calories disclosures may not appear until 2013 or 2014.[50]

Effective June 21, 2010

Adults with existing conditions became eligible to join a temporary high-risk pool, which will be superseded by the health care exchange in 2014.[45][51] To qualify for coverage, applicants must have a pre-existing health condition and have been uninsured for at least the past six months.[52] There is no age requirement.[52] The new program sets premiums as if for a standard population and not for a population with a higher health risk. Allows premiums to vary by age (4:1), geographic area, and family composition. Limit out-of-pocket spending to $5,950 for individuals and $11,900 for families, excluding premiums.[52][53][54]

Effective July 1, 2010

The President established, within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), a council to be known as the National Prevention, Health Promotion and Public Health Council to help begin to develop a National Prevention and Health Promotion Strategy. The Surgeon General shall serve as the Chairperson of the new Council.[55][56]
A 10% tax on indoor tanning took effect.[57]

Effective September 23, 2010

Insurers are prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays, in new policies issued.[58]
Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[59] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent's tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[60][61]
Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[62][63]
Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments, co-insurance, or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[64]
Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[65] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[45]
Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[45]
Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[45]
Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[45]
Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[45]
Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[45]
Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55-64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[45]
A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[45]
A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[45]

Effective January 1, 2011

Insurers must spend a certain percent of premium dollars on eligible expenses, subject to various waivers and exemptions; if an insurer fails to meet this requirement, there is no penalty, but a rebate must be issued to the policy holder.[66][67][68]
The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services is responsible for developing the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation and overseeing the testing of innovative payment and delivery models.[69]
Flexible spending accounts, Health reimbursement accounts and health savings accounts cannot be used to pay for over-the-counter drugs, purchased without a prescription, except insulin.[70]

Effective January 1, 2012

Employers must disclose the value of the benefits they provided beginning in 2012 for each employee's health insurance coverage on the employees' annual Form W-2's.[71] This requirement was originally to be effective January 1, 2011, but was postponed by IRS Notice 2010-69 on October 23, 2010.[72]

New tax reporting changes were to come in effect to prevent tax evasion by corporations. However, in April 2011, Congress passed and President Obama signed the Comprehensive 1099 Taxpayer Protection and Repayment of Exchange Subsidy Overpayments Act of 2011 repealing this provision, because it was burdensome to small businesses.[73][74] Before PPACA businesses were required to notify the IRS on form 1099 of certain payments to individuals for certain services or property over a reporting threshold of $600.[75][76] Under the repealed law, reporting of payments to corporations would also be required.[77][78] Originally it was expected to raise $17 billion over 10 years.[79] The amendments made by Section 9006 of the Act were designed to apply to payments made by businesses after December 31, 2011, but will no longer apply because of the repeal of the section.[74][76]

Effective by August 1, 2012

All new plans must cover certain preventive services such as mammograms and colonoscopies without charging a deductible, co-pay or coinsurance. Women's Preventive Services - including well-woman visits, support for breastfeeding equipment, contraception and domestic violence screening - will be covered without cost sharing.

Effective by January 1, 2013

Income from self-employment and wages of single individuals in excess of $200,000 annually will be subject to an additional tax of 0.9%. The threshold amount is $250,000 for a married couple filing jointly (threshold applies to joint compensation of the two spouses), or $125,000 for a married person filing separately.[80] In addition, an additional Medicare tax of 3.8% will apply to unearned income, specifically the lesser of net investment income or the amount by which adjusted gross income exceeds $200,000 ($250,000 for a married couple filing jointly; $125,000 for a married person filing separately.)[81]

And as for those saying that it is now going to be handled through the Tax Code so don't worry, do you really want your healthcare handled by the IRS?

It's not really the IRS that mishandles cases; they rarely make mistakes, but there are a lot of people who try to cheat the system, so there's a lot of effort expended to track down who's not paying.

The IRS is also very willing to make deals for back-taxes as long as you make an effort to be upfront and honest with them.

I can see it now, to get your preexisting condition treated you have to fill out form 1040Bio, subtract your age, add the cost of treatment, refer to a table in the back of a booklet and after mailing it all in find that you figured it wrong and are only going to be issued some pain meds so you cant feel the cancer eating your body to death.

I believe you misunderstand. Private insurance companies are still handling all of the non-Medicare/Medicaid paperwork.

The only portion that's going to be handled through the Tax Code is the yearly fee for not buying insurance and additional taxes levied on those making a certain income level or above.

It may result in a few new lines to the 1040.

Folks need to look deeper into the 2700 pages of this bloated beast of a law, but they will no tbe allowed to see the whole thing.

You can download the whole thing here: http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/index.html

It is a 4.27Mb PDF file with 2409 pages.

To quote the people who came up with it "We had to first PASS the Law to be able to find out what is IN the Law."

This isn't uncommon. Most Bills change up to the day they are passed, and balloon quickly as special interest groups and other things get added in attempts to compromise.

I don't know about all of you, but even to my 13 year old niece obamacare stinks like last weeks sushi in the sahara.

Opinions should be based off of as many facts as possible, and many of the statements you have made are false.

I'm not asking you to change your opinion, but I will say that you seem to have been presented misinformation and taken it as trustworthy.

Sober Thal:
People who can't afford healthcare, will be fined...

*sigh

Canada is looking better every day!

.
People who can't afford healthcare by TVs and Guns.
Now to the serious bit - People who can't afford healthcare use it, and their debt burdens the health system. They will use the healthcare system at some point, and if they can't afford it then then the costs of the treatment will be on society. You only give a few percentages of your income for a healthcare coverage of any kind, and state provided ones are smaller and cheaper.

thaluikhain:
Um...try thinking of it like a very watered down verison of the NHS that's been introduced to fill a very big NHS shaped hole in the US, if it helps.

It was originally supposed to kind of be like that but the Republicans thought it would look too good for Obama if it worked so they labelled it socialism and so it's been warped into a new system where people are forced to get health insurance...because poor people don't have enough bills. It probably would've been fine if they just let him do what he intended: make sure that people who (for whatever reason) don't have health insurance are covered in some way.

The funny thing is that it usually works the other way:

ShadowKatt:

Sober Thal:
snip

While you don't have a bill though, the health care system in Canada...kinda...really sucks. The wait times are huge even for simple visits and the doctors tend to be highly rushed and stressed. Most visits come down to 'What are your symptoms? Here's a prescription". And that's for a simple visit. If you have more complex issues, like cancer, people have died waiting to get in to see a specialist.

Well, I can't speak for Canada, but here in Germany we don't have outrageous wait times and I didn't die when I had cancer due to an 'evil' public healthcare system.

Bertylicious:

Sober Thal:

Bertylicious:
What do they do in Canada? Is it state run medical facilities or private?

Publicly funded health care. Or as some 'people' in the states may call it, evil socialist communism. Everyone pays a little in taxes, and you (for the most part) don't have a bill when you visit a doctor.

But who owns the hospitals? Do the Doctors work for Doctor Corp. or do they work for the state?

In the UK, every GP surgery and hospital are, for all intents and purposes, run like a private company where instead of the bills going to the patients, they are sent to the local Primary Care Trust that has a budget set by the Department of Health depending on the population of the area. While this is great from a patient perspective, behind the scenes it really is a bit of a mess with some PCTs paying for drugs and procedures others don't depending on how much money they have spare in the budget and PCTs essentially billing each other for services (if you live in London, but break your arm in Manchester, Manchester send the bill to London). There's also a lot of negotiating between the hospitals, GPs and PCTs to try and make sure costs are kept as low as possible.

However, while I think the back office functions could do with being looked at, there's no way I'd support a US style system. I have been to a GP twice and Accident and Emergency once in 5 years and I'm happy in the knowledge that should I fall down the stairs tomorrow, I won't be bankrupted. Sure I may wait longer then if I was private (why do people ignore this in these arguments?) or in the USA for non-urgent care and procedures like MRI's etc happen less (because more often then not they arn't needed), but its better then the selfish idea of healthcare the US has.

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