"You can't love animal's if you're not a vegetarian"

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Counterpoint -
IF: You can't love animals if you're not a vegetarian.
THIS IMPLIES: If you eat something, you must not love it.
IF: Vegetarians eat plants.
THEN: Vegetarians don't love plants.

IF: Plants provide everything necessary for human survival.
AND: Plants expect only waste air, sunlight and dirt (the 3 cheapest resources around) in return.
THEN: Plants would be very nice people.

IF: You don't love very nice people.
THEN: You're a complete arsehole.

THEREFORE
IF: You can't love animals if you're not a vegetarian.
THEN: Vegetarians are complete arseholes.

I love SOME Animals, not all. I like Dogs, Pandas, Monkeys, Wolves, Owls etc. and I wouldn't eat one but I can't say I like Cows, Chickens etc. and I'd eat them.

So Soilders and Excustioners can't love their familys or other people becuase their jobs have a high probability of killinng other humans?

Cannibals are a different story. >.> [shutters]

Who cares? It's not like vegetarians are people anyway.

Just to clarify, I'm joking. If you don't want to eat meat, that's cool. Just don't start pontificating to me because I couldn't give two shiny fucks.

I love animals...I love meat...problem solved.

Daverson:
Counterpoint -
IF: You can't love animals if you're not a vegetarian.
THIS IMPLIES: If you eat something, you must not love it.
IF: Vegetarians eat plants.
THEN: Vegetarians don't love plants.

IF: Plants provide everything necessary for human survival.
AND: Plants expect only waste air, sunlight and dirt (the 3 cheapest resources around) in return.
THEN: Plants would be very nice people.

IF: You don't love very nice people.
THEN: You're a complete arsehole.

THEREFORE
IF: You can't love animals if you're not a vegetarian.
THEN: Vegetarians are complete arseholes.

Have you ever considered being ambassador for all things everywhere? I like the way you think.

OT: My friend used to play with a lamb her friend owned when she was a little girl. She'd spend hours rolling around with Pamela the lamb, petting her, and pretending to be a lamb herself. When said lamb was later slaughtered for meat, she ate some of it and declared that "Pam is tasty".

Admittedly, this made me recoil when I first heard she'd eaten her sheepy friend, but I'd argue she loved that lamb so, clearly, some people are capable of it.

Quaxar:
Well, on the other hand you can't love nature if you've ever eaten plants.
So this makes for an absolutely reasonable argument.

DING DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner!

Seriously, what kind of argument is that? I assume that my constant concern and affection for my various pets has all been a lie? As has my fascination with the animal kingdom and efforts to go green?

Nadia Castle:
Jesus, why's there always so much hate for the Vegetarian? I'm one and it's not because I think animals are some super case of lovely happiness we all must protect and love and all must do the same. I'm a veggie because I know I wouldn't be able to slit somethings throat so why should I enjoy the spoils if I wouldn't be willing to do the grizzly part?

I've never, ever, ever told someone they should be a vegetarian as well, the only time arguments about diet comes up is when I meet someone new, mention I am one for whatever reason and suddenly their pressed up against my face going 'WHY? WHY DONT YOU EAT MEAT? MEAT IS GOOD, ID DIE IF I COULDN'T EAT MEAT? DON'T YOU EAT CHICKEN? OR BACON? WHAT ABOUT STEAK!!!!!!!?' I swear meat must function like crack or something....

I've also never met a holier-than-thou vegetarian either. Now don't get me started on those damn vegans!!!!!

They aren't hating on you, the comment at the start was the kind of radical who treats not eating meat as a kind of religion that forces them to condemn anyone who does not conform. Ive known plenty of perfectly normal people who chose to eat a vegetarian diet. If you have friends who are doing this "WHY? WHY DONT YOU EAT MEAT? MEAT IS GOOD, ID DIE IF I COULDN'T EAT MEAT? DON'T YOU EAT CHICKEN? OR BACON? WHAT ABOUT STEAK!!!!!!!?", you need new friends, that's as bad as a raving vegan.

Tismo:
Is being a vegetarian sexist?

I don't know. But I think the really pressing matter is whether or not you'd save one if they fell into a river.

As someone living in a country where *anything* is fair game for food, I just had to weigh in on this.

When I first arrived here, I had my first chance to try Dog and Horse, and it bugged me. Now it doesn't.

Reason?

It's not *my* dog or horse. If I had a pet cow or pig, I wouldn't want to eat it. If not, no problem. I'd go as far as saying "if you can eat one animal, you should be okay with eating any animal :)"

I have a pet rabbit... it's a very nice rabbit... it's white with red eyes and a tuft of black hair that makes it look hilariously emo... The rabbit is ace and I like it a lot!
I have also, whilst owning this rabbit, caught another in a snare, skinned it and eaten it... But I eouldnt do that to Peter... hell noes!
So yes... both is possible... even to the same animal type...!

And guess what? At work I used to be part of the decision cycle on striking targets... and I am trained to defend myself by taking another's life... doesn't mean I hate people... :/

This is something very interesting to me, really. I am a vegetarian, and I'll just say from the start that I don't think that you can't love animals if you eat meat. I wasn't born as a vegetarian and I ate meat for the majority of my life and I've always loved animals.

However, there is a certain type of a problem here. The problem is that we don't seem to develop the same connection between animals that we eat and animals that we like. Meaning, a dog is a friend, but a cow is not, despite the fact that they are both animals. Most people would be horrified is someone served them a dog, but are not horrified if someone serves them a cow. That's where this argument is coming from (although, that argument is kinda flawed in my opinion). Once you begin perceiving all animals as equals, eating a cow somehow becomes similar to eating a dog. I can't really explain this, and I've never really hated cows, but while I was eating them, my brain didn't quite make the connection between the living being and the food on my plate. A living cow is a living cow and it's cute, but once it's in my plate, that's no longer a cow. I find that interesting because once I stopped eating meat, that somewhat changed. I don't have any problems with people who eat meat, though. And I don't think that eating meat makes you an animal hater. You simply have this disconnection between an animal and your dinner. This is actually quite useful because if we all had a problem with eating animals, humanity wouldn't really come as far as it did.

Innegativeion:
I don't hate animals. I am an omnivore designed to consume the ones of far lesser intelligence. So I do.

I just want to say that pigs are one of the most intelligent animals in the animal kingdom, and some researches put them as more intelligent than dogs. And yet, eating pigs is very common. Even certain spiders are remarkably intelligent. So, it's not really about intelligence, and those vegetarians that tell you that they are comfortable with killing insects and spiders because they are less intelligent are... kinda hypocritical in my opinion. I myself am a kind of a hypocritical vegetarian who doesn't eat meat, refrains from killing insects and spiders and worms and everything, but I occasionally eat fish. And I admit that. The world is simply not black and white and all these arguments between vegetarians and vegans and people who eat meat are bothersome.

Xartyve2:
Oh. A vegetarianism thread. These are always good.

Hey at least it's not a Feminism thread?

OT: I once decided to be a vegetarian, not because I felt bad for animals, but because I hated plants

Beliyal:
This is something very interesting to me, really. I am a vegetarian, and I'll just say from the start that I don't think that you can't love animals if you eat meat. I wasn't born as a vegetarian and I ate meat for the majority of my life and I've always loved animals.

However, there is a certain type of a problem here. The problem is that we don't seem to develop the same connection between animals that we eat and animals that we like. Meaning, a dog is a friend, but a cow is not, despite the fact that they are both animals. Most people would be horrified is someone served them a dog, but are not horrified if someone serves them a cow. That's where this argument is coming from (although, that argument is kinda flawed in my opinion). Once you begin perceiving all animals as equals, eating a cow somehow becomes similar to eating a dog. I can't really explain this, and I've never really hated cows, but while I was eating them, my brain didn't quite make the connection between the living being and the food on my plate. A living cow is a living cow and it's cute, but once it's in my plate, that's no longer a cow. I find that interesting because once I stopped eating meat, that somewhat changed. I don't have any problems with people who eat meat, though. And I don't think that eating meat makes you an animal hater. You simply have this disconnection between an animal and your dinner. This is actually quite useful because if we all had a problem with eating animals, humanity wouldn't really come as far as it did.

Innegativeion:
I don't hate animals. I am an omnivore designed to consume the ones of far lesser intelligence. So I do.

I just want to say that pigs are one of the most intelligent animals in the animal kingdom, and some researches put them as more intelligent than dogs. And yet, eating pigs is very common. Even certain spiders are remarkably intelligent. So, it's not really about intelligence, and those vegetarians that tell you that they are comfortable with killing insects and spiders because they are less intelligent are... kinda hypocritical in my opinion. I myself am a kind of a hypocritical vegetarian who doesn't eat meat, refrains from killing insects and spiders and worms and everything, but I occasionally eat fish. And I admit that. The world is simply not black and white and all these arguments between vegetarians and vegans and people who eat meat are bothersome.

A few thoughts:

I know many people that had pet pigs, cows, chickens etc. and most of them would never eat their pet. All eat meat though.

To me, the only really difficult question in this whole issue is: "What about borderline endangered animals?".

I live in Japan. Here, Whale is regarded as a cultural food that is basically eaten because people have always eaten it (lots of those over here). It tastes bad. But every conversation I've had with people here is remarkably similar - the Japanese are for it, the westerners are either ambivalent or against it.

What do I think?
I eat meat and I love my dogs.
Therefore, it's bullshit.
Wow, that was easy.

Starbird:
I know many people that had pet pigs, cows, chickens etc. and most of them would never eat their pet. All eat meat though.

To me, the only really difficult question in this whole issue is: "What about borderline endangered animals?".

I live in Japan. Here, Whale is regarded as a cultural food that is basically eaten because people have always eaten it (lots of those over here). It tastes bad. But every conversation I've had with people here is remarkably similar - the Japanese are for it, the westerners are either ambivalent or against it.

Yeah, it seems like there has to be some sort of a bond between you and the animal. Maybe even cultural bond (even if you don't have a dog, you wouldn't eat a stray dog; not where I live at least. Most people here think it's "barbaric" to eat dogs). When it comes to animals like pigs, it's a personal bond; you won't eat your pig, but it's okay to eat any other pig because it's just a food animal. Basically, it's about how you perceive the animal and what connection you have with it (personal or cultural). It simply doesn't mean that you hate animals if you eat some of them, it's much more complicated than that.

And yeah, about whales, I personally wouldn't be able to justify that. And I believe that, when it comes to endangered animals, we should draw the line where the preservation of nature comes before satisfying human wishes and traditions.

Beliyal:

Starbird:
I know many people that had pet pigs, cows, chickens etc. and most of them would never eat their pet. All eat meat though.

To me, the only really difficult question in this whole issue is: "What about borderline endangered animals?".

I live in Japan. Here, Whale is regarded as a cultural food that is basically eaten because people have always eaten it (lots of those over here). It tastes bad. But every conversation I've had with people here is remarkably similar - the Japanese are for it, the westerners are either ambivalent or against it.

Yeah, it seems like there has to be some sort of a bond between you and the animal. Maybe even cultural bond (even if you don't have a dog, you wouldn't eat a stray dog; not where I live at least. Most people here think it's "barbaric" to eat dogs). When it comes to animals like pigs, it's a personal bond; you won't eat your pig, but it's okay to eat any other pig because it's just a food animal. Basically, it's about how you perceive the animal and what connection you have with it (personal or cultural). It simply doesn't mean that you hate animals if you eat some of them, it's much more complicated than that.

And yeah, about whales, I personally wouldn't be able to justify that. And I believe that, when it comes to endangered animals, we should draw the line where the preservation of nature comes before satisfying human wishes and traditions.

Then an interesting question becomes "Would you eat *your* pet dog/pig/cow/chicken if you were starving" :).

I like animals, I just also accept that as far as survival goes I have little problem eating any one of them to live. My pets included. Are there some animals I believe should be avoided when concerning food? Yeah, but thats pretty much just primates because they are our closest relatives. Even then if I was starving I would be fine eating a chimp.

That's nonsense, I love animals!

Particularly well done.

Something that hasn't been mentioned - You can eat meat without being aware that you're eating something that was once a living, breathing animal that you see in the zoo and can own as a pet. It is quite easy to ignore any distinction between animals and plants when they are on your plate.

It's always the "if you're not x, you're y." And it's bullshit. Ultra-feminists pull the same thing.

Souleks:
"I saw someone spouting BS on facebook I should tell Escapist."

I love animals.. down to the bone.

Hey be nice, some people need to vent.

Starbird:
It's not *my* dog or horse. If I had a pet cow or pig, I wouldn't want to eat it. If not, no problem. I'd go as far as saying "if you can eat one animal, you should be okay with eating any animal :)"

So go visit a prostitute and then if you start feeling bad about abusing another human being for your own enjoyment, just remember, it's not *your* daughter.

I'm a vegetarian and I do think that it requires an insane amount of cognitive dissonance to say you love animals in one breath and then say that it's okay to kill them and eat their dead bodies. Could I say I loved women if I was a rapist, or that I loved black people if I was a member of the KKK?

I love my family, but there are still some other people that I would kill and eat given the chance.

peruvianskys:

Starbird:
It's not *my* dog or horse. If I had a pet cow or pig, I wouldn't want to eat it. If not, no problem. I'd go as far as saying "if you can eat one animal, you should be okay with eating any animal :)"

So go visit a prostitute and then if you start feeling bad about abusing another human being for your own enjoyment, just remember, it's not *your* daughter.

I'm a vegetarian and I do think that it requires an insane amount of cognitive dissonance to say you love animals in one breath and then say that it's okay to kill them and eat their dead bodies. Could I say I loved women if I was a rapist, or that I loved black people if I was a member of the KKK?

I'm quite fine with prostitution too, if it comes to that :).

But seriously, I agree that it's a tricky issue. I can only talk from my own beliefs and experiences over the last 30 odd years. I've had many beloved pets who were essentially members of my family.

That said, I'm fine with people eating meat, veggies or whatever tickles their fancy. Animals, like it or not, are just that. Animals. We shouldn't kill them needlessly or at random, but as a food source - zero problems.

And comparing being a racist or rapist to eating a burger...well, there's cognitive dissonance and there's cognitive dissonance.

peruvianskys:

Starbird:
It's not *my* dog or horse. If I had a pet cow or pig, I wouldn't want to eat it. If not, no problem. I'd go as far as saying "if you can eat one animal, you should be okay with eating any animal :)"

So go visit a prostitute and then if you start feeling bad about abusing another human being for your own enjoyment, just remember, it's not *your* daughter.

I'm a vegetarian and I do think that it requires an insane amount of cognitive dissonance to say you love animals in one breath and then say that it's okay to kill them and eat their dead bodies. Could I say I loved women if I was a rapist, or that I loved black people if I was a member of the KKK?

Wow. Just wow.
I've got cognative dissonance because I care about animals and eat meat but doing so makes me comparable to a racist and a rapist?
Is that really how you view most people?
That's just sad. And it doesn't really help the holier-than-thou stereotype veggies get.

Ridiculous idea. Reminds me of the old "If you are not a religious person (preferrably Christian), you do not have morals."

I'm always torn in matters like this. What can I say that will meaningfully contribute? Is expressing my thoughts on the matter going to help, or hinder?

Ah well. I shall just go ahead with it.

Apostrophes. Please use them properly. They are not for pluralizing things, they are for contractions and possessives.

As for the actual topic, I'm going to go hang out with the people who think the assertion is too binary.

I like my dog. I do not like my dog on a plate.

I like piggies. I like pigs on plates.

I don't think there's really any correlation between whether you like your animals and whether you eat them or not.

I don't find it hard to disconnect the tasty lump of flesh on my plate from the oinking/mooing/clucking animal in the field. Although the idea of eating an animal doesn't repulse me anyway, it's only natural.

Starbird:
That said, I'm fine with people eating meat, veggies or whatever tickles their fancy. Animals, like it or not, are just that. Animals. We shouldn't kill them needlessly or at random, but as a food source - zero problems.

But killing animals for food is killing them needlessly and at random. No one needs to eat animal products, especially in the West. Killing animals for meat is as pointless as killing them for fur.

Phasmal:
Wow. Just wow.
I've got cognative dissonance because I care about animals and eat meat but doing so makes me comparable to a racist and a rapist?
Is that really how you view most people?
That's just sad. And it doesn't really help the holier-than-thou stereotype veggies get.

The activities are not comparable in moral value but in the amount of dissonance required. Instead of just dismissing me how about you justify why you can claim to love a population of creatures while actively encouraging their painful deaths and eventual necrophagia?

Angry Juju:
I don't think there's really any correlation between whether you like your animals and whether you eat them or not.

Thanks for stating your opinion, care to justify it in any meaningful way?

I love animals, LOVE TO EAT EM. No but really, I do love them. I volunteer frequently at animal rescues and try to do environmental clean ups (even going into environmental sciences) as much as I can. But because I enjoy some meat all of that is totally thrown out the window? /ok

peruvianskys:

Phasmal:
Wow. Just wow.
I've got cognative dissonance because I care about animals and eat meat but doing so makes me comparable to a racist and a rapist?
Is that really how you view most people?
That's just sad. And it doesn't really help the holier-than-thou stereotype veggies get.

The activities are not comparable in moral value but in the amount of dissonance required. Instead of just dismissing me how about you justify why you can claim to love a population of creatures while actively encouraging their painful deaths and eventual necrophagia?

I'm not dismissing you, because... well... there's not much to dismiss.
You say people can't love animals and eat meat, but people do.
Most people eat meat but still care about animals.
I'm guessing you've eaten meat at least once, does that mean you hated animals and encouraged them to die painfully?

I am for humane food industry, I do not at all advocate painful deaths for animals.

Also, I'm pretty sure some holier than thou vegan could come in and one-up you for being awful for drinking milk or using anything with animal products in it.
Does that mean you do not love animals?

Phasmal:

You say people can't love animals and eat meat, but people do.

I'm not arguing that people cannot love animals and eat meat.

I'm arguing that those who do can only do so through massive amounts of cognitive dissonance and self-delusion.

I'm guessing you've eaten meat at least once, does that mean you hated animals and encouraged them to die painfully?

It means that at one point I had not examined my actions to the point where I realized the fundamental contradiction between a compassionate, respectful approach towards animals and the practice of killing them, cutting their dead bodies into pieces, and eating them.

I am for humane food industry, I do not at all advocate painful deaths for animals.

You're still killing a living creature that doesn't need to die, so I don't give a good Goddamn whether or not it's "humane." There's no such thing as killing a living being humanely if its for your own sensual pleasure.

Also, I'm pretty sure some holier than thou vegan could come in and one-up you for being awful for drinking milk or using anything with animal products in it.
Does that mean you do not love animals?

I don't use animal products anyway, but thanks.

And for the record, I hate animals. I can't stand them, I've never had pets and I hate zoos and farms and all that. But I also hate a lot of other things that I'm not particularly interested in murdering.

peruvianskys:
Snip.

Ugh blah.
This is going nowhere so I'm gonna sum up nicely.

I've never killed an animal in my life. The meat industry is not going to stop if I stopped eating meat. Which I wont anyway, for various reasons.
I thought about becoming a vegetarian a few years ago, but I already have dietary restrictions due to allergies, and I really don't want another one.
You can think that people are deluded for not being vegitarian and still loving animals, I disagree and think that's pretty judgmental.
But either way, I feel neither of our opinions will change.

I absolutely loved my cat (loved, he unfortunately had to be put down because he was suffering from cat-leukemia, I was devastated, especially because I hadn't had the chance to say a proper good buy to him since I was at a boarding school at the time, although I'd probably have been equally devastated anyways but it did come as a hit in the gut when you're getting that kind of news through the phone).

I also like to eat a medium done steak.

Humans evolved to digest an omnivorous diet meaning we're capable of digesting both meat and plant food. Yeah of course we're capable of surviving on a strictly vegetarian diet but that would require a scheduled diet to rival that of my dads who have type-1 (the autoimmune kind, not the one triggered from an unhealthy diet) diabetes.

Personally I'm very pragmatic when it comes to my diet so I'll have no problem eating Bambi (including me having to pull the trigger and gut him to get to that tasty deer meat).

So I'll have to call b/s when it comes to that argument that "you can't love animals without being vegetarian".

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