Kansas may halt cursive education

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Evil Smurf:
proper handwritting is an art! Silly America

I'd rather they just focus on teaching everyone to have legible handwriting. If eliminating cursive means more people use printing I can read easily, that would be good enough for me. Anything in the realm of "art" can go straight to elective art classes, like where I learned calligraphy.

blackrave:
[quote="Sidney Buit" post="18.393665.15921932"]
By "Nobody (outside of England, apparently) uses Cursive handwriting anymore" you mean that americans don't use it anymore, right?
Because most in places I have ever been and in all languages I know (with latin and cyrillic writing) this is called handwriting

So am I right to assume that american handwriting is simply drawing printed letters?
Man, you ARE degrading

The below is printed handwriting. And so far in this very thread we've heard from Germans, Australians, Irish, and Canadians that have confirmed that Cursive handwriting is all but gone from their areas too. Once people understood what the word cursive meant, they started confirming it.

Edit: and apparently an English fellow or two.

image

Gavmando:

StBishop:

Gavmando:
Wow.

Just wow.

I'm amazed and appalled by this thread. Are you people serious? You still use printing to write? If you cant write in cursive in Australia by the age of 10, then the teachers start looking at you like there's something wrong with you.

I...
I just...

I cant type any more. I have to leave the computer. This is just so brain exploding.

I can tell you that you're straight up wrong.

As a pre-service teacher in Highschools (as in I've been working in highschools the past 2 years) I've seen cursive once.

It was a British kid who had recently moved to Australia.

I don't recall a single person using cursive at my schools in Queensland (I went to 3) and the majority of people I know who I went to school with in the Northern Territory didn't use cursive.

Queensland and NT. 20 and 30 years behind the rest of the country. Nuff said.

I'm teaching in WA.

The stupidest people I know are all from Melbourne without exception.

Also, your argument is flawed. You said "If you cant write in cursive in Australia by the age of 10", not "If you can't write cursive in NSW, Vic, ACT, Tas, and WA..."

blackrave:

By "Nobody (outside of England, apparently) uses Cursive handwriting anymore" you mean that americans don't use it anymore, right?
Because most in places I have ever been and in all languages I know (with latin and cyrillic writing) this is called handwriting

So am I right to assume that american handwriting is simply drawing printed letters?
Man, you ARE degrading :/

From this thread we've mainly only had people from England claiming it's prominence. There were some from Australia however there were multiple conflicting accounts of that as even a proposed teacher chiming in to say that he had never seen an Australian high school student provide work in cursive. A few Germans in the thread mentioned their country doesn't favour it and as a Canadian I know it is not widely used, if at all, here.

Here in Canada it is called handwriting, you are correct there, but just because the proper term isn't used (yes, cursive is in the dictionary) doesn't automatically mean that all writing by hand is cursive.

Cursive is a dying writing style.

Cursive does appear quite beautiful on the page however in most cases print is far easier and quicker to read and recognize. Likely why it is used with electronic devices and all over the web.

Well, I never knew that so many people give such a big damn about handwriting.
I mean I like good penmanship and I am quite good at calligraphy and I do only write with fountain pens, but in everyday life I simply use print, seeing as my cursive is completely unreadable.
I can't even decipher it myself in most cases, so printing it is.

I prefer physical stuff, and find that my thoughts tend to flow better when writing rather than typing, so I like cursive, although this may have to do with the fact I know no other way of writing.

I don't know. I think it should be taught briefly and let the students decide what to do. And I have to ask, what would people do in times where there are no electronic devices around them? I am wary that humanity keeps using technology as a crutch more and more. If something fucks them up, what'll happen?

Sidney Buit:

blackrave:

By "Nobody (outside of England, apparently) uses Cursive handwriting anymore" you mean that americans don't use it anymore, right?
Because most in places I have ever been and in all languages I know (with latin and cyrillic writing) this is called handwriting

So am I right to assume that american handwriting is simply drawing printed letters?
Man, you ARE degrading

The below is printed handwriting. And so far in this very thread we've heard from Germans, Australians, Irish, and Canadians that have confirmed that Cursive handwriting is all but gone from their areas too. Once people understood what the word cursive meant, they started confirming it.

Edit: and apparently an English fellow or two.

image

Printed handwriting is good for short notes, to make sure other understand you, yes
But "cursive" handwriting is much better for education (you mostly write down for yourself and you can understand your own "cursive" handwriting)
Because it is much faster- I wrote down as fast as teacher spoke during college
Good luck taking handprinted notes with such speed.

rosac:
I prefer physical stuff, and find that my thoughts tend to flow better when writing rather than typing, so I like cursive, although this may have to do with the fact I know no other way of writing.

I don't know. I think it should be taught briefly and let the students decide what to do. And I have to ask, what would people do in times where there are no electronic devices around them? I am wary that humanity keeps using technology as a crutch more and more. If something fucks them up, what'll happen?

Wait... What would we do if there weren't any electronic devices around us?

We'd use print handwriting, which is what most people do anyway. We aren't even suggesting that writing with pens and paper would go away, this thread is all about one style of handwriting no longer being taught because nobody uses it outside of classes where they require it.

UK here.

Cursive or 'joined up writing' as we call it here is definitely the norm, so much so that I can't actually recall reading anything hand written recently that was not.

It's so engrained to me that I actually struggle printing my name on documents, I simply don't naturally write like that and it's an effort to do so.

As a side note, I don't really recall being forced and ruthlessly trained to do joint writing, it was just something you did in primary school and eventually became how you wrote.

I am actually quite surprised the rest of the world finds this a chore, as over here it's simply the norm.

blackrave:
Printed handwriting is good for short notes, to make sure other understand you, yes
But "cursive" handwriting is much better for education (you mostly write down for yourself and you can understand your own "cursive" handwriting)
Because it is much faster- I wrote down as fast as teacher spoke during college
Good luck taking handprinted notes with such speed.

Uhh, I constantly take multiple pages of notes with printed handwriting... It might take you longer to print - but that's because you've been writing with cursive your whole life while I've been printing my whole life.

If you would check out the rest of this thread you could find links to multiple studies that scientifically confirms that cursive and printing can be done at equivalent speeds.

So, from a school's point of view, you can teach people cursive - which will be harder for people to read and is no faster, or you can just stick with printing and waste no more time (since, if I understand correctly, is taught even to English schoolkids before cursive handwriting - even if it's not called by those names). I think the decision is obvious - waste no more time on something trivial and unimportant to anyone but nerds on the internet, like everyone in this thread.

ITT: People are too lazy to learn how to write properly and educated adults merrily admit being incapable of reading a clear handwritten text. This is why we won't be getting nice things.

While it's absolutely true that cursive is rarely needed for some folks, I do find uses for it.

When you have to take notes, it's so much faster than the comics sans emulation type most people seem to have going these days. No matter arguing - typing each and every letter is a lot like drawing, whereas cursive is probably best described as the effort to write down ideas, notes, letters or whole books with the pen leaving the paper for as little as absolutely necessary, which is mostly just between words or to put funny little dots or other funny symbols on top of some very select few individual characters.

I also believe that finding your own writing font is part of what makes you you, a unique individual - like everyone else. If you rely on things with buttons or touchy-feely screens to express yourself, well, just don't you dare expect me to take your handwritten application srsly, with it's MLP stickers and Hello Kitty glitter.

Sidney Buit:

blackrave:
Printed handwriting is good for short notes, to make sure other understand you, yes
But "cursive" handwriting is much better for education (you mostly write down for yourself and you can understand your own "cursive" handwriting)
Because it is much faster- I wrote down as fast as teacher spoke during college
Good luck taking handprinted notes with such speed.

Uhh, I constantly take multiple pages of notes with printed handwriting... It might take you longer to print - but that's because you've been writing with cursive your whole life while I've been printing my whole life.

If you would check out the rest of this thread you could find links to multiple studies that scientifically confirms that cursive and printing can be done at equivalent speeds.

So, from a school's point of view, you can teach people cursive - which will be harder for people to read and is no faster, or you can just stick with printing and waste no more time (since, if I understand correctly, is taught even to English schoolkids before cursive handwriting - even if it's not called by those names). I think the decision is obvious - waste no more time on something trivial and unimportant to anyone but nerds on the internet, like everyone in this thread.

Not in my experience, but maybe for some people that's easier
I guess it is "agree to disagree" situation :/

But occasionally you may need handwriting that others can't understand
I write in "cursive" clearly, but just a bit more loose hand and you won't even understand what language it is, while I will read it without any problems

Also children should know both so that they can choose on their own.
It would be just fair.

Alma Mare:
ITT: People are too lazy to learn how to write properly and educated adults merrily admit being incapable of reading a clear handwritten text. This is why we won't be getting nice things.

Also in topic:
People being snobbish (not directed exclusively at you, but implying that cursive is "ZE ONLY KORREKT WAY" is a bit snobbish at least) about doing things "THE ONLY KORREKT WAY", telling everyone who does things differently why "THEY ARE FALSCH".

This is another reason for why we can't have nice things.

Rainmaker77:
UK here.

Cursive or 'joined up writing' as we call it here is definitely the norm, so much so that I can't actually recall reading anything hand written recently that was not.

It's so engrained to me that I actually struggle printing my name on documents, I simply don't naturally write like that and it's an effort to do so.

As a side note, I don't really recall being forced and ruthlessly trained to do joint writing, it was just something you did in primary school and eventually became how you wrote.

I am actually quite surprised the rest of the world finds this a chore, as over here it's simply the norm.

It's probably a cultural thing, like how I never knew that tipping wasn't an internationally normal thing to do. In the USA if you don't tip your waitstaff 20% of the value of your bill (some say 14% or some hogwash that makes the math iffy) then you're practically punching the waitress in the face on your way out the door.

Whereas in Europe, I'm given to understand that tipping is seen as kinda rude. (Or maybe that was just France, everything seems to upset the French.)

blackrave:
Not in my experience, but maybe for some people that's easier
I guess it is "agree to disagree" situation :/

But occasionally you may need handwriting that others can't understand
I write in "cursive" clearly, but just a bit more loose hand and you won't even understand what language it is, while I will read it without any problems

Also children should know both so that they can choose on their own.
It would be just fair.

Yeah, there is a linguistic divide between the US and UK that is widening every day. From time to time I have to ask my English customers to repeat themselves (and ALWAYS ask Scottish and Irish), so maybe it simply is the way it is over there.

I've never needed handwriting that nobody can understand myself, but then I've never given a rat's tail about anyone finding out my pathetic secrets.

As for the chillens, I'm much more concerned about them learning... well, anything, than trying to teach them multiple optional styles of handwriting. If you haven't noticed, our educational system is failing hard and fast.

As a Kansas resident, all I can say is that I was taught cursive in grade school. I used it a little, and then I went back to using regular print after that. In highschool, when I started learning drafting, I lettered everything, and I never looked back from there. I think it's a good thing that the education system here is trimming out the more useless things so they can focus on teaching more useful skills.

By the way, engineering lettering is THE single most inefficient way to write things down. However, it looks badass when it's done!

And no, I do not use lettering guides when I am taking notes. :p

image

senordesol:
http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/12/omg-cursive-education-on-the-chopping-block/

Cursive may be going the way of the Dodo bird and newspapers: Kansas is mulling a decision to cut cursive education and prioritize typing skills. "Parents want to know what your school is doing to teach kids to be prepared for the world of technology," said Bob Voboril, superintendent of schools for the Wichita Catholic Diocese. "That's a higher priority for parents than what we would call the penmanship arts."

On Tuesday, the Kansas State Board of Education will consider what role - if any - cursive will have in elementary education and collect survey responses from the districts. The Wichita Eagle reports that cursive lessons have declined in the city, but isn't sure how seriously board members are taking the decision to completely erase it from the curriculum.

Yeah, yeah make whatever Kansas education jokes you want, but... is this really a bad thing? I can't think of any time in my day-to-day life where I have to use cursive apart from signatures. I kind of feel that cursive is a relic of a bygone era that we can well afford to lose (or at least have it taught later like in a university).

I NEVER used cursive. I can barely read it.

But then again, there was this girl I knew in highschool who wrote exclusively in cursive. She was probably the fastest writer I had ever seen. She could write as fast as I could type, and for several assigned papers, she wrote them out instead of typing them (several pages long too!). This was all because of her cursive.

but in my day to day life, I never write. In fact, if it wasn't for a few instances in school, I don't think I'd ever write. When I graduate from college and get my job, WRITING will be a thing of the past for me, nevermind cursive.

tsb247:
As a Kansas resident, all I can say is that I was taught cursive in grade school. I used it a little, and then I went back to using regular print after that. In highschool, when I started learning drafting, I lettered everything, and I never looked back from there. I think it's a good thing that the education system here is trimming out the more useless things so they can focus on teaching more useful skills.

By the way, engineering lettering is THE single most inefficient way to write things down. However, it looks badass when it's done!

And no, I do not use lettering guides when I am taking notes. :p

image

so you mean to tell me that you HAVE to write letters in the wakey font in your embedded image?

Cause if so, you are crazy sir.

Another Brit here. Holy shit. So in a significant portion of the modern world, most people don't use cursive handwriting? Anyone using other types of handwriting (unless it's some fancy caligraphy) over here is considered less intelligent. My dad uses engineering lettering most of the time as pictured above, but he has been an engineer pretty much his whole life, inculding when there were only working drawings (and therefore hadwritten text), no CAD, and he has dyslexia so cursive is slightly harder to read.

In my opinion cursive should be taught and regarded highly. If it might be removed to "make room" for other things, then instead MORE education seems like a better alternative to me.

My handwriting is so terrible that I can't even read it, so I just never do it except to sign things. My signature ends up looking different every time I do it, though.

Nobody I know does it either, which is good because I also can't read most other people's handwriting. It's just too irregular and without a little kerning I find it extremely difficult to differentiate the similar looking letters (l and e, m and n and so on).

Printing, on the other hand, is easy to distinguish and (unless your printing is really bad as well) can be read much faster without having to figure out every second word (for me, anyway).

Besides everything else, I really don't see a reason why you'd need to learn it anyway, apart from reading old historical letters or something.

Sidney Buit:
It's probably a cultural thing, like how I never knew that tipping wasn't an internationally normal thing to do. In the USA if you don't tip your waitstaff 20% of the value of your bill (some say 14% or some hogwash that makes the math iffy) then you're practically punching the waitress in the face on your way out the door.

Whereas in Europe, I'm given to understand that tipping is seen as kinda rude. (Or maybe that was just France, everything seems to upset the French.)

Actually tipping is the norm over here (I always tip anyway), but it's still an extra to be earned through service, you can freely not tip and not be harassed as you leave the restaurant.

burntcustard:
In my opinion cursive should be taught and regarded highly. If it might be removed to "make room" for other things, then instead MORE education seems like a better alternative to me.

The best response to this, that I can see, is the simple question "But why should it be taught and regarded highly?"

Outside of "it looks pretty" and "it's how people did it 60 years ago (or how the English do it)" - both of which don't matter one iota - I can't think of a good reason to bother teaching it. Especially when you continue on with the FACT that it is immediately forgotten (again, outside of England) and people just revert back to printed handwriting.

As for MORE education... Well, you apparently haven't been to an American school. Our schools drag everything out mercilessly, long after I had mastered a skill I was STILL practicing it to cater to the clueless dipshit demographic. Of course, looking back, that could've been partially my fault, since I actively turned down the advanced classes since they were advertised as "more homework" - which was as helpful to me as saying a new car "viciously runs over your testicles".

I find it very hard to believe that people write in cursive or print. In my experience pretty much every person in my final few years of school used a hybrid, some letter combinations are faster and easier in cursive, some are faster and easier in print.

The letter combination 'mn' for example is faster in cursive. You are moving from the bottom right of the m to the top left of the n so lifting your pen achieves nothing. The combination of anything with an 'o' though is easier to do in print because it is typically written counter-clockwise starting from the top, slightly to the right. This results in some weird routes to avoid striking through letters if you don't lift your pen. It is just easier to lift the pen.

My interpretation of being taught 'cursive' is that the intention is to get students to adapt to a writing style that suits them in terms of a balance between speed and legibility. As I stated, from my experience this generally led to people using a combination.

necromanzer52:
I'm not sure I believe these people claiming in the UK everyone writes in cursive. Here in Ireland, what we call "joined up writing" Is only ever used by old people.
They taught it to us in primary school, but nobody continued it into secondary school, and I don't know anyone my age who still uses it.

Myself

necromanzer52:
I'm not sure I believe these people claiming in the UK everyone writes in cursive. Here in Ireland, what we call "joined up writing" Is only ever used by old people.
They taught it to us in primary school, but nobody continued it into secondary school, and I don't know anyone my age who still uses it.

Plenty of people our age still use joint writing. Most of the people who I know who dropped using joint writing their writing looked like Arabic anyway so it wasn't like anything of value of lost with them going to print.

OT: Just add a touch typing class like an hour a week problem solved and I fucking guarantee it there will be people who still type using 1 finger. I know because we had this in primary school and there was people in my secondary school who I went to primary school with who still did that.

Cavan:

SaneAmongInsane:

Occasionally I had write things before I type them up, how exactly am I being inefficient using print? How much time is really saved using cursive? What, a handful of seconds?

I would say that I have seen people write without joining up anything and they do seem to labour at it. No you're not going to lose a heck of a lot of time in that writing, it is just a basic thing that is taught to make writing more efficient and 90% of the people my age in England are capable of doing it effortlessly.

Actually most people in England either don't or cant use it. This was on the news the other day funnily enough and experts described it as "dead" not even "dying" and only a small minority of people, usually people into calligraphy actually bother with it.

The topic apparently came about because of the photos of David Cameron's pencils, he is left handed and cannot write well in ink because of smudges.

What the fuck is cursive...

I wouldn't mind if norway dropped cursive writing either. I loathe it, can't write in that style nor can I understand it(I'm not kidding either. I can't read it at all). It is a waste of time in the modern age, especially considering whenever I have to write on paper, it has to be easily understandable text since no one has time to interpret some shitty attempt at cursive writing that no amount of code breakers could ever find the meaning to.

aussie here. i learnt cursive in primary school, started about grade 3 or 4. im 24 now so that was a good 15-16 years ago, i still use it today on the occasion when i actually have to write something, it is just natural for me to use it. my writing is horrible though, teachers always complained about it and told me to neaten it up, but it is far faster than print.

some of theses people are gonna meet a harsh reality when they hit that university professor who only accepts work written in cursive and who only writes in it, there always is one...

i for one think it should remain being taught, it is important, and to people who arent typographers and english teachers...

PhunkyPhazon:

Gavmando:
Wow.

Just wow.

I'm amazed and appalled by this thread. Are you people serious? You still use printing to write? If you cant write in cursive in Australia by the age of 10, then the teachers start looking at you like there's something wrong with you.

I...
I just...

I cant type any more. I have to leave the computer. This is just so brain exploding.

Well, Kansas isn't in Australia, now is it? Really, no one uses it in America. Ever. School boards all across the country have been dropping it for a while now. I really don't see why the Europeans and Australians in this thread are so shocked that a different country might actually do things differently.

This thread would seriously be a great basis to start a sociology paper on.

I'm European (Swedish), and beyond my signature I haven't used cursive... in the last 15-or-so years, maybe? We may have had a few assignments in high school that required cursive writing, but nothing since then.

EDIT: I'm going to a college/university now, after years of trying to figure out what I want to do with my life, and all assignments are handed in digitally, because it's much easier for everyone involved.

I stopped writing in cursive as soon as I started secondary school. I preferred to write without the letters joined up, I don't see what the issue is.

If it was halting handwriting altogether that'd be something completely different.

Sidney Buit:

It's probably a cultural thing, like how I never knew that tipping wasn't an internationally normal thing to do. In the USA if you don't tip your waitstaff 20% of the value of your bill (some say 14% or some hogwash that makes the math iffy) then you're practically punching the waitress in the face on your way out the door.

Whereas in Europe, I'm given to understand that tipping is seen as kinda rude. (Or maybe that was just France, everything seems to upset the French.)

In the UK it largely depends. Some places (normally restaurants if you have eight or more people in the group) tend to automatically add a "service charge" to the bill as standard. If they do that then tipping is not considered necessary. Otherwise 10% of the bill is considered polite, and is generally expected.

That said, waiters and waitresses get paid more than in America due to minimum wage laws we have. So they are still getting what is considered a reasonable wage without a tip.

neverarine:
some of theses people are gonna meet a harsh reality when they hit that university professor who only accepts work written in cursive and who only writes in it, there always is one...

i for one think it should remain being taught, it is important, and to people who arent typographers and english teachers...

I've left classes because of utterly stupid requirements and demands, at one point raising my hand in a class during orientation (first day) to be excused - I then walked to the guidance councilor and asked to be transferred to a different professor down the hall.

And, could you please illuminate for me: How is it important? Because it's fancy-looking? Because its heritage (English heritage, maybe, but in the United States we have as many German as English-decedents). I honestly have no idea why it could be considered important - its a mode of writing that does a poor job and is being naturally phased out.

I used to write in 'cursive' but I found it made my handwriting worse and just looked childish to me, so I now write in print.

I haven't noticed a significant drop in the speed of my writing but I certainly find it a lot easier to read. It also has the added bonus that when a form asks me to write in block capitals all I do to fuck up now is forget to put it in capitals.

blackrave:

Printed handwriting is good for short notes, to make sure other understand you, yes
But "cursive" handwriting is much better for education (you mostly write down for yourself and you can understand your own "cursive" handwriting)
Because it is much faster- I wrote down as fast as teacher spoke during college
Good luck taking handprinted notes with such speed.

It is not faster. I did write everything my profs said with printed handwriting.

If you want to talk about speed in writing use shorthand, otherwise all you do is talking about something subjective someone else mentioned to you once. If you used cursive for the biggest part of your life then you are faster with it, and since I only used cursive when I was taught it and went back to print straight back because teachers, students and everybode else was using it I am way faster with print. I wrote down several pages full of notes of exactly what the prof said during my 'best' times (as in, I did not have to copy stuff from the chalkboard), otherwise I cut some unnecessary stuff (as in, articles and such).

I also have 3 forms of printed in which I write, every changes in speed and readability for others.

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