Why is cheating bad?

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4
 

RubyT:

randomsix:
I think your post may be insinuating that your point is the exact opposite of what you want it to.

Not really. But don't be sad. You probably do well in multiple-choice tests.

Well let's break this down.

You said that multiple choice tests are pointless and don't show how well people would actually perform in job XYZ.

I said that there are several studies which show that performance on the GRE correlates with success in graduate school.

You said that what I just said supports the idea that performance on tests like the GRE does not correlate with success in environments like graduate school.

So you either took my words to be the exact opposite of what they mean or you misspoke.

randomsix:
Well let's break this down.

Yeah, let's.

You said that multiple choice tests (...) don't show how well people would actually perform in job XYZ.

Where?

Champthrax:

From an individualist standpoint, we try to do what is best for ourselves. So for example, If cheating on the LSAT would get you into law school, why should you flip burgers rather than go to law school just because your competition either has more intellect or drive.

As someone in law school, I can tell you cheating on the LSAT is a really bad idea in general. It isn't a test of knowledge, it is about logical reasoning and deductions. The only way to cheat on it would be to steal the answers in advance. Also, law schools and the Bar stresses morality, so getting caught cheating on the LSAT, a law school exam, or in any other part of your legal career can pretty much destroy your career. Don't do it.

RubyT:

randomsix:
Well let's break this down.

Yeah, let's.

You said that multiple choice tests (...) don't show how well people would actually perform in job XYZ.

Where?

Here:

The idea of measuring competence in these limited ways has a bad effect on society. I know a lot of gifted people, who are just bad at test. For various reasons. And then there are people who are not as smart, not as creative, not as nice, not as competent - but they excel at memorizing boring shit.

This paragraph contains the implicit claim that doing well on these tests is absolutely no indication of ability. In addition, you insinuate that people who do well on these tests only do well because they can memorize trivia.

Okay. Last try, because this is getting ridiculous and I don't know if I'm being trolled.

randomsix:
Here:

The idea of measuring competence in these limited ways has a bad effect on society. I know a lot of gifted people, who are just bad at test. For various reasons. And then there are people who are not as smart, not as creative, not as nice, not as competent - but they excel at memorizing boring shit.

This paragraph contains the implicit claim that doing well on these tests is absolutely no indication of ability. In addition, you insinuate that people who do well on these tests only do well because they can memorize trivia.

I will rephrase my message:

My opinion is that most current standardized tests do not sufficiently assess people's abilities. They promote the ability to memorize facts over intelligence and creativity, apart from lots of other stuff.

Your demur was that studies indicate a correlation of doing good in tests with doing good in career.

My lament is that this is true. There are people who are just not good at doing tests, for various reasons. And they are often out-maneuvered by people who are inferior at the task at hand, but have a better test record.

Another opinion of mine is that society doesn't benefit from this.

This is a subjective statement. Anecdotal experiences and so forth.

Binnsyboy:

sky14kemea:
I like to think it depends what you cheat on. 8D

I'm notorious with my friends for, let's say, "Tipping the balance" when we play card games or board games. (Which basicaly means yes, I'll cheat if I see an opportunity to do so).

See, my stance on this is that if you're going to cheat at a game, why bother playing at all?

Assuming the game is being played for the mutual enjoyment of the people involved, then exactly. It may be fun for the cheater, but it ruins the fun for the other players, and that's very selfish.

RT:
As they say, you don't get punished for cheating, you get punished for being caught.

Whoever said that has never cheated on something before >_>.

Generally speaking if you don't know the material on the test, someone has failed, either you or the professor. Either way if you pass it without actually knowing it you are in for a very sore future.

Though most jobs that require certification (that I've experienced) didn't really need that certification. I think certifications are more to dissuade dangerously stupid people from getting jobs where their stupid can harm others.

But my pool of examples is small enough that I'm probably wrong on the point of certification.

Because of the inherent dishonesty of the act. If you cheat on a test (or on your SO for that matter) you lied about something, either your knowledge of the subject matter on the test, or your commitment to that person. You did not 'play by the rules.'

Tests are supposed to be an even playing field to weed out those who know what they are doing vs those that do not. Cheating means you do not know what you are doing, but you had an unfair advantage to make it seem as you do.

Champthrax:
(by cheating I mean not playing by the rules: IE having answers to a test)

Now I will preface this by saying I do not agree that cheating is right, I just want to play devils advocate

So, can anyone tell me why cheating is bad? One of the most common things I hear is that it is not fair to other people. But you know what else isn't fair, that other people were born with more brains, or more muscle. This gives them an innate advantage, and would a cheater not simply be using their gift, cunning, to give themselves an advantage?

From an individualist standpoint, we try to do what is best for ourselves. So for example, If cheating on the LSAT would get you into law school, why should you flip burgers rather than go to law school just because your competition either has more intellect or drive.

Of course, cheating will probably catch up to you at some point, and getting caught is a major deterrent, but how is cheating unfair when life itself is not fair?

Cheating catches up to you in ways other than just getting caught cheating. Let's put you in a hypothetical scenario in which you cheat on the LSAT and there is no possible way for this act to be discovered by anyone, and you will never be directly punished for it. If you had to cheat on the LSAT in order to get into law school, it may be that you are not prepared for law school. I'm not saying that these tests are accurate predictors of future performance, but what the hell else are high-investment organizations going to do with the flood of applicants that come knocking on their door? Many of them will be vastly under qualified, and if this test divides the "maybe"s from the "definitely not"s, then the organizations are a lot better off, and the "maybe"s have a lot better chance of not being lost among a sea of "definitely not"s.

Cheating undermines what little legitimacy testing has, and it isn't to your benefit to sneak into an institution you won't be able to make it through. It isn't to your benefit to cheat on a math test to pass a class and then be moved on to the next more complicated class. What understanding you could have gleaned is then pushed that much farther out of reach.

Go ahead and cheat if you think it'll never come up again, if you think it's never going to bite you in the ass. No skin off my nose. Have fun drowning in unintelligible coursework, though.

red dragon 52:
Tests are supposed to be an even playing field to weed out those who know what they are doing vs those that do not.

I would just like to point out that tests are rarely, if ever, an even playing field. Ideally, yes. However, framing can inadvertently favor one group over another, such that those who do understand the concepts being tested on may still score poorly. You are more likely to get false negatives than false positives due to poor framing, however.

Only reason you feel cheating is your "gift" is because you're one of the few doing it.

Get the people who actually have the brains together to brainstorm ways to cheat and they will blow your mind.

I cheated once... I now have a son with no mother because the other girlfriend found out, shot my mistress then shot herself. Well, I was in both wills and that worked out quite nicely.

It's treated badly when you get caught because a real rogue wouldn't ever get caught.

IQ tests are known to have a cultural bias but IQ scores mean so little, I rather have a hard working dunce then a lay about genius who rather talk about how smart he is.

I see some discussion about people who are bad test takers.... Um... need to learn to work under pressure?
I don't believe there are bad test takers, I believe there are some really high anxiety people, who need to learn some coping skills. No one of reasonable intelligence completely bombs every test ever. I believe that is such a cop out. Life is hard, prepare for it, don't do yourself that disservice by convincing yourself that you are "bad" at "Test taking". Sounds a little tough, but I over came it, you can too.

There is almost never an excuse to cheat (I can think of a few but only under the most extraordinary circumstances). Why because a test, is that, a test, a test of mental capacity, your ability, and your knowledge. If you don't pass or fail like you should, then you really didn't learn anything.

and I believe failure is in fact the most important part, and the most important lesson you'll ever learn. I don't trust people who've never failed before. I don't, if they don't understand failure, then they don't understand what its going to take to succeed. Success is a whole lot of failure. Ask any Scientist or Engineer whose worked on project of any complexity. Knowledge in itself, is a byproduct of failure, how do you know it works? because the thousands other ways don't.

I would never hire a project manager, if they couldn't first admit to having failed in the past, and admit that failure is a possibility. cheaters don't know failure, they don't know it, so they don't know success, they only know cheating.
.

You seem to focus on jobs and edjucation. Well, when it comes to many jobs there are certain things you REALLY need to know. How the hell would you feel if it turns out your doctor cheated his/her way trough most of their edjucation? Suddenly you learn that they do NOT actually know a whole lot of stuff they should have known.

Or you learn your lawyer isn't anywhere near as good as his credentials make it seem.

Maybe your car mechanic doesn't actually know how to properly take care of your car.

It's not only making it equal for everyone, it's making sure that you end up with a job you can handle for the benefit of yourself and your clients/customers. Other kinds of cheating like lying when you pay your taxes means you get away with things other people have to pay for, but still enjoy the same benefits they do. What if you find out your neighbor doesn't bother paying his fair share for all the things you both take for granted. When you cheat your way forward like this, someone else has to pay for it. And in business, if people learn you don't know as much as you should know, you can be sure you won't keep your job for long...

In games... Singleplayer cheating is no problem, as nobody suffers from it. You can even have a whole lot of fun with some cheats in a game. Multiplayer... We don't even need to discuss this one, do we? It puts you at a very unfair advantage, and there is no fun in playing against cheaters. If you want to cheat in multiplayer, go play Crossfire. EVERYONE cheats in Crossfire XD.

I see plenty of answers that explain why cheating is bad, so I will go along with the devil's advocate thing here and give some examples where cheating turned out to be a good thing.

One example;
I knew someone who became a navel intelligence field officer (see spy). During his training, he and some other students were given a test that couldn't be passed, yet they would be kicked out if they did not pass it (not a written test, and he wouldn't explain the scenario involved due to legal reasons). The only way they passed it was to "cheat" on the test (IE go outside of set parameters to accomplish their goal; similar to the movie "Up Periscope" if you have ever seen it). This was to determine the level of commitment to their goal the candidates had. Out of the 10 people only 2 failed the "test" because they were caught cheating. It was explained to them, that they will often be given assignments where they are the key asset, and it is up to them to do whatever they had to do to get the information/item/whatever to the location required without getting caught, however if they get caught they would be punished to the fullest extent of the law as the law is in fact the law.

Another example;
I don't know this person personally, so it may be a lie or exaggeration, but it came from a trusted source so I believe them (just wanted this disclaimer in case someone wanted to look it up and finds it to be false [and if you do, please let me know]). A person was in the hospital for a heart attack and was dying of a ventricular fibrillation. The doctor on staff gave him a drug that stops the heart and then brings it back on line (hopefully in a sinus rhythm). After giving him the drug the patient came back on line, but still in V.Fib. Apparently the doctor was only allowed to give the patient that drug once for risk of other serious side effects (see death). Only the patient was going to die anyway without it. The doctor gave the patient the drug a second time, and this time the patient came back Sinus Tachycardia. They gave the patient something to slow the heart rate down and the patient survived without any serious side effects. This is another example of someone cheating, but for the betterment of that man's life.

As for why I think cheating is bad, I find it to be like lying. It is very addictive, and will eventually catch up to you. Sure you might have missed a class and then cheat on a test to get by this time, but eventually you realize that hey I can skip class whenever I want and then just cheat to pass. Giving you a college degree, but not a college education.

Mick Golden Blood:

runic knight:

Ah yes the "Life's not fair" defense. Because pretending you actually know something you don't (this being cheating on a test, forging documents on a resume, etc.) is perfectly justifiable so long as bad things happened to you previously. I mean it must also mean you can break laws to (in some cases, cheating actually is) because, as you said, it is meaninglessly in the end so screw it, lets make even more unfair and try to feebly justify selfish actions.

You lack reading comprehension.

Remember the part where I said "nothing is wrong, nothing is right" ? Hmmm... I wonder what that means. I never tried to justify anything. I simply explained it from my own perspective, period. Whether or not it sounds like a justification is for you to decide but that was not my intent, especially since at the end of it I say so...

Nor did I say anything about something bad being a requirement to justify anything.

Not to mention "you don't have to like it, or the people who do it". I'm not judging anything here, yet you attack me as if I am.

the problem here is that the defense is based on an unstated aspect which you ignore when I bring it up here. And yes, your perspective here comes off as a defense of the action itself, regardless how you try to avoid stating it as such. At the very least you come off as a weak devil's advocate, though even coming at it like that, it would still merit a rebuttal.

Keep telling yourself that. I will never agree with this. So many people work hard but live in squalor for the entirety of their lives. If this was true there would be a much larger amount of well-off people than there is now.

I wonder how hard those children in africa work in those mines... Or being forced to fight in wars at the age of 8...

Luck has a vital importance. I will agree that the cards dealt are not equal. However, in any given location, especially in the first world, there is a connection between effort plus motivation and quality of life. You look at the outliers in the data and draw your conclusion from them. Yes, it does suck the world itself is unfair. Yes it does suck that african kids are screwed over. That doesn't mean one should abandon effort for cheating, or try to present it as anything but what it is: a selfish endeavor that, in your case here, attempts to gain some sort of fairness by disregarding the rules for an advantage to counter whatever disadvantages perceived.
See, that is the problem here. I'm not saying, nor have I ever, that Effort = reward. I am saying that effort and motivation, even beyond natural talent itself, will help. So even among those war children, the ones who put effort in and are motivate are more likely to get farther in life then the ones who are not. Sad, but that was what I was arguing here.
And, I would like to point out that there ARE far, far more well off people now. You know, pretty much the entire first world, for instance, which had to build itself up over generations of people working and putting in effort. Africa is a sad case, but it doesn't change that effort can and does influence ones life in the environment in which they live.

hmm... let's zoom in on this:

that is the flaw here. You whine about life not being fair yet you base your conclusion on a concept that people are entitled to some degree of fair return.

Tell me where I said that. Go on. Do it. I never hinted at such a thing.

You implied it when you made the case that cheating was a means to balance out injustice done to someone. The idea it is to balance things out suggests that balance is suppose to be there, that fairness is entitled. It is not. You didn't say it, but your argument rested on it. Otherwise you would have no case at all and no reason to bring up the injustice in people's lives in relation to cheating. You bring it up because you perceive it as a means to balance the playing field. That itself draws on the notion the playing field is meant to be balanced. Thus, you make the case that people are entitled to some degree of fair, as justified by the notion that cheating for some people is somehow better then others based on their lack of natural talent.

Neither did I "whine" about anything. I stated how I saw things. Is everything whining these days? I said people can do what they can to enjoy life in whatever way they must. That's it. Whatever follows afterwards is on them, but people wouldn't do these things if they didn't think it would benefit them/make them happy. "You can do it, sure. but I wouldn't do it myself/advise it."

Really, I just don't believe in this arbitrary right and wrong bull-shit. That's brainwashing you get from the society you grow up in. In other societies they literally teach kids how to cheat and be as deceptive as possible because that's what they must do to survive. To repeat: It's a tool, nothing more. Labeling it as inherently wrong is fucking ignorant.

Firstly, it is not "arbitrary". There are consistent social rules for a reason, and while I would certainly not say you should always follow them blindly, cheating is a pretty damn clear cut "wrong" thing most of the time for a rather simple reason. Cheating is a bypass of rules or requirements, or of a test of one's knowledge and skill. This means you are either gaining trust under false pretenses, which is bad for a society that works together and relies on honesty there (like say, doctors, lawyers, etc.), lying to oneself about one's skill, or circumventing requirements in order to accomplish something that would otherwise require passing.
And no, your post was taking the stance of "yeah, you can do it, after all, you have to balance out your lack of talent some how." Societies, all of them, have certain rules and structure that stems from sociology and our own natural impulses as social creatures. Trust is one of these, and by default, dishonesty and cheating, is very well ingrained as a negative when one is lying to the rest of the group for selfishness. Those classes where they teach them to lie, do they not also tell them exceptions towards whoever is in power? I know religions that encourage lieing to enemies or other groups. Hell, Scientology says to lie through your teeth if it helps the religion, but within their own doors, it is still "bad". Lying is a tool, you are right. But cheating is lying with a twist. It is a breach of rules of a society through deception. In that regard, it is disregarding the society as a larger entity for personal gain, and as others have mentioned, that can be dangerous not only to oneself, but to others. A pilot who cheats and can't really fly is a dangerous thing. And engineer who cheats and can't do the math is a dangerous thing. This complaint about things being "arbitrary" without demonstrating much of a grasp of why they are there in the first place, that is whining and why I called it such.

By the way, you can stop being aggressive now. I don't like dealing with people like that.
And get off that high horse.

Aggressive? My my, I add some snark and the butthurt begins. I'm sorry you found out about african orphans and it crushed your world view into some cynical "what is wrong or right anymore" thing, but there is reasons why I argue these points beyond just the society in which I live. There is more underlying aspects in sociology and in human psychology. There is evolutionary precedent and reason. There is basic hazards to look at. You're damn right I will be a little snappish, and when you come back pissing and moaning about how life is unfair and rules are arbitrary, and start saying people are brainwashed, I smell some anarchist bullshit theory here and I will let some of my frustration shine through. Just a little.

barbzilla:
I see plenty of answers that explain why cheating is bad, so I will go along with the devil's advocate thing here and give some examples where cheating turned out to be a good thing.

One example;
I knew someone who became a navel intelligence field officer (see spy). During his training, he and some other students were given a test that couldn't be passed, yet they would be kicked out if they did not pass it (not a written test, and he wouldn't explain the scenario involved due to legal reasons). The only way they passed it was to "cheat" on the test (IE go outside of set parameters to accomplish their goal; similar to the movie "Up Periscope" if you have ever seen it). This was to determine the level of commitment to their goal the candidates had. Out of the 10 people only 2 failed the "test" because they were caught cheating. It was explained to them, that they will often be given assignments where they are the key asset, and it is up to them to do whatever they had to do to get the information/item/whatever to the location required without getting caught, however if they get caught they would be punished to the fullest extent of the law as the law is in fact the law.

The true test was the capacity to cheat.

Another example;
I don't know this person personally, so it may be a lie or exaggeration, but it came from a trusted source so I believe them (just wanted this disclaimer in case someone wanted to look it up and finds it to be false [and if you do, please let me know]). A person was in the hospital for a heart attack and was dying of a ventricular fibrillation. The doctor on staff gave him a drug that stops the heart and then brings it back on line (hopefully in a sinus rhythm). After giving him the drug the patient came back on line, but still in V.Fib. Apparently the doctor was only allowed to give the patient that drug once for risk of other serious side effects (see death). Only the patient was going to die anyway without it. The doctor gave the patient the drug a second time, and this time the patient came back Sinus Tachycardia. They gave the patient something to slow the heart rate down and the patient survived without any serious side effects. This is another example of someone cheating, but for the betterment of that man's life.

not really cheating a test, though maybe cheating death. This was use of skill and knowledge in a real situation. Against the law, perhaps, though doesn't seem cheating in the way most people in the thread have been using it.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked