What do you think about gender roles?
I think they are needed
14.9% (65)
14.9% (65)
They shouldn't exist
66.9% (291)
66.9% (291)
Women are allowed to break them but not men
4.6% (20)
4.6% (20)
Men are allowed to break them but not women
0.7% (3)
0.7% (3)
Other
12% (52)
12% (52)
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Poll: A Certain Double Standard

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This isn't going to end well. Good lord it will not, and yet I still feel compelled to make this post.

A hypocrisy I often see is that it's ok for women to do/like masculine things, but it's not ok for men to do/like feminine things. People will often come to the defense of a woman wearing pants or watching Samurai Jack, but will harp on a man for manicuring his nails or watching My Little Pony (I can understand being put-off by crazy fans, but I am strictly talking about those who chide fans for watching a show aimed at girls). I vehemently disagree with it.

So against my better judgement, I would like to know what you all think about this.

EDIT: There's now an "other" option. (I only have eight slots people, give me a break.)

Men and women tend to behave differently from one another. No one will contest that--but gender roles often crop up because of this.

I read an article where a man talked about him and his wife falling into the "classic model" of him working and her staying at home taking care of their new baby. This surprised the HELL out of them both--I think she made more money than him. And they were both 'progressive' or 'modern' thinkers or whatever you call couples who aren't wedded to the classic model.

To the best of my memory their situation came about basically because she enjoyed caring for the baby more than he did and one of them needed to stay at home and take care of the baby--at least early on.

Nothing sweeping here, but it's telling I think. When folks aren't involved in public political stuff and are in the privacy of their own homes and lives 'traditional models' may crop up simply because--GASP--men and women are different!

As a general rule of thumb, im against double standards. Although even i will admit there are a few that probably should somewhat exist simply because we live in an imperfect world and some issues are a gray area.

as for gender roles for men....they probably would be better off if they didnt exist. But that is a very LONG process. Even ill admit there are things that go against the grain for me when it comes to disobeying my gender role.

I'd be happier if more guys did 'girly' things like manicures, moistureizing, 'manscaping', cooking, cleaning... all the stuff women are expected to do. If I had a guy who took care of himself really well, loved cooking, got so sappy over puppies and kittens that they babble, and so forth. If a guy could be comfortable enough to really be himself, I'd be a lot happier.

On the flipside, girls are usually fine for this, but I still get some crap because: I'm not married, I don't want kids, I love video games, I'm not married, I don't want kids, I like beer, ... okay, I just finished yoga and am still sick so Im still shaking. I'm tired.

Anyway. There's still a terrible double standard when it comes to women vs. men: the whole marriage/kids thing. It's perfectly fine if a man doesn't want either of those, but a woman is one of the following if she does't want a husband and kids:

(Beware, these are stereotypes and what 'people' think, not what I think)
1. Lesbian
2. Fooling herself
3. Too ugly to find a man
4. Lying to herself (same as above, I know, but it bears repeating)
5. Denying nature/biological clock
6. A career woman aka ice queen/bitch
7. Not quite right in the head
8. Damaged goods
9. Spinster/cat lady

... And there's probably a few more. A guy who doesn't want kids is:

1. Straight or gay, both is fine
2. Focused on his career which is perfectley ok
3. Never going to grow up (not generally seen in a bad light)
4. Normal - all men don't need to want kids

And believe me, as a woman around the age of 30, I've been called/told all of the above. Even by family. And total strangers. People truly think there is something deeply, horribly wrong with you if you don't want kids and will tell you so. The nicest thing they say? "Oh, you'll change your mind" "Oh, you'll see sense later on" "Oh, you'll know better later" ... Yeah. Still makes me want to throat-punch them.

IndomitableSam:
On the flipside, girls are usually fine for this, but I still get some crap because: I'm not married, I don't want kids, I love video games, I'm not married, I don't want kids, I like beer, ... okay, I just finished yoga and am still sick so Im still shaking. I'm tired.

You should tell them you can't have kids and get all offended/upset. That'll teach 'em.

One of the easiest way to see this is with names. There are several names which have gone from specifically male to unisex (eg. Taylor, Jamie,, but none which have gone from specifically female to unisex. Some previous specifically male names are now even considered feminine (eg. Dana).

Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

Gender roles are always a terrible thing, regardless of whichever gender they apply to. Simple as.

I'm actually of the belief that in order for the gender debate to move forwards, we now need to move beyond the traditional model of gender activism (ie, feminism), and move towards a debate focused around gender roles on both sides of the divide. I know that by claiming feminism is irrelevant, I run the risk of being called a typical chauvinistic, misogynist pig, but I simply believe the debate has moved into territory too intricate for an ideology like feminism to adequately deal with it.

For example, there is a certain argument in the UK that the current austerity measures are affecting women more than men. While there will always be (and should be) debate on how austerity and policy affects both genders, the claim doing the rounds amongst news sources like the Guardian is that women are being affected three times as much as men. A rather intimidating figure, one which would imply, if not outright state, that the government is engaged in all out warfare against the female gender. Except that the figure was only reached by taking affected benefits such as child benefit, and assuming that the results of austerity will only affect women. If a mum loses her child benefit, that's an example of how women are suffering. If a dad loses his child benefit... that's, what, normal? If a parenting couple lose their child benefit, only the mum is affected?

Thing like this are why I'm convinced we need to start moving beyond feminism, and adopt a more egalitarian approach to the gender debate. Feminism was a wonderful movement in its day, but now the debate has moved on, and I siply don't think it can keep up. This isn't a bad thing. All ideologies are tied to time and place. In Britian, the Conservative party used to be the progressive party, compared to the likes of the Whigs. Now, they're the old guard, and progressive politics has fallen to other (smaller) parties. I think it's the same with Gender theory. The idea of The Patriarchy simply doesn't apply to modern Western society, and perpetuating the idea simply reinforced the idea that only one side has any real grievances in the gender debate.

So yes, we need to start addressing gender roles on both sides. If we want to see any real progress in gender debate from now on, we need to up the game, and raise the level of debate.

It's amusing to see the people who see "We shouldn't judge people negatively for X" and go on to be like "Men and women are different" as if that's somehow an excuse to judge people for manicuring nails or some shit.

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

Well that statement that has no argument or proof whatsoever sure shut me up.

OT: My basic philosophy is that people should do whatever they want as long as they're capable of it and it doesn't harm anyone(innocent). Because double standards and gender roles are against that, I am against double standards and gender roles.

You know, I could see this, actually.

Mostly because I'm a straight male who can seriously state that he would rather watch Moulin Rouge or Les Miserables than a football game.

I don't really think any gender roles should exist, I suppose. I shouldn't get weird looks because I don't like sports, and hell, there are probably just as many girls in my guild in World of Warcraft as there are guys.

mechashiva77:
This isn't going to end well. Good lord it will not, and yet I still feel compelled to make this post.

A hypocrisy I often see is that it's ok for women to do/like masculine things, but it's not ok for men to do/like feminine things. People will often come to the defense of a woman wearing pants or watching Samurai Jack, but will harp on a man for manicuring his nails or watching My Little Pony (I can understand being put-off by crazy fans, but I am strictly talking about those who chide fans for watching a show aimed at girls). I vehemently disagree with it.

So against my better judgement, I would like to know what you all think about this.

You're half-right. Yes, I think it is less socially acceptable (at least in the Western world) for a man to be 'unmanly' than it is for a woman to be 'unwomanly'. However, it's not a hypocrisy, because in both instances the oppressors are more often than not, men. It's not a case of 'Women are enforcing oppressive gender roles on men now, where once men enforced oppressive gender roles on women', but more 'Some men are trying to enforce oppressive gender roles on both women and other men, and for some reason the other men are more inclined to lie down and take it than women are'.

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

What should you make of it, pray tell? Should you then use that statement to forbid women from doing what is viewed as traditional male tasks, or vice versa? Is something that vastly general be used to dictate individual lives?

mechashiva77:
This isn't going to end well. Good lord it will not, and yet I still feel compelled to make this post.

A hypocrisy I often see is that it's ok for women to do/like masculine things, but it's not ok for men to do/like feminine things. People will often come to the defense of a woman wearing pants or watching Samurai Jack, but will harp on a man for manicuring his nails or watching My Little Pony (I can understand being put-off by crazy fans, but I am strictly talking about those who chide fans for watching a show aimed at girls). I vehemently disagree with it.

So against my better judgement, I would like to know what you all think about this.

It's also very telling on what human society values more; male or female 'roles'.

And despie what many MRA's will have you think, it's pretty clear that male roles and tasks are far more rewarded.

IndomitableSam:
I'd be happier if more guys did 'girly' things like manicures, moistureizing, 'manscaping', cooking, cleaning... all the stuff women are expected to do. If I had a guy who took care of himself really well, loved cooking, got so sappy over puppies and kittens that they babble, and so forth. If a guy could be comfortable enough to really be himself, I'd be a lot happier.

On the flipside, girls are usually fine for this, but I still get some crap because: I'm not married, I don't want kids, I love video games, I'm not married, I don't want kids, I like beer, ... okay, I just finished yoga and am still sick so Im still shaking. I'm tired.

Anyway. There's still a terrible double standard when it comes to women vs. men: the whole marriage/kids thing. It's perfectly fine if a man doesn't want either of those, but a woman is one of the following if she does't want a husband and kids:

(Beware, these are stereotypes and what 'people' think, not what I think)
1. Lesbian
2. Fooling herself
3. Too ugly to find a man
4. Lying to herself (same as above, I know, but it bears repeating)
5. Denying nature/biological clock
6. A career woman aka ice queen/bitch
7. Not quite right in the head
8. Damaged goods
9. Spinster/cat lady

... And there's probably a few more. A guy who doesn't want kids is:

1. Straight or gay, both is fine
2. Focused on his career which is perfectley ok
3. Never going to grow up (not generally seen in a bad light)
4. Normal - all men don't need to want kids

And believe me, as a woman around the age of 30, I've been called/told all of the above. Even by family. And total strangers. People truly think there is something deeply, horribly wrong with you if you don't want kids and will tell you so. The nicest thing they say? "Oh, you'll change your mind" "Oh, you'll see sense later on" "Oh, you'll know better later" ... Yeah. Still makes me want to throat-punch them.

ehh...if a guy doesnt want marriage/kids he is viewed as an immature adult who doesnt know what is good for him. Generally something that society expects a woman to eventually come around and "fix" him of that immaturity. It is not viewed in a terrible light because society expects women to "train" men to be something remotely close to civilized. Or put it another way, society views men as having an IRRATIONAL fear of marriage/kids.

Not nearly as bad as women who dont want either, whom society views as some kind of horrible monster.

Although it seems to be improving. I mean, the typical age when people get married and have kids is significantly older than in my parents generation, which was basically right out of high school. Granted these improvements crawl at the speed of generations, but still.

Thankfully my parents are not pushing me TOO much to have kids (although they just want (more) grandkids. They are not doing it for my sake). My older sister on the other hand...

TopazFusion:
Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

A key that can open many locks is a fucking awesome key, on the other hand a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

EDIT: Just realized that I didn't talk about the the topic.
OT: Erm Gender roles are bad I suppose, people shouldn't be judged for doing things they enjoy yadda yadda.

I tend to have a bit of banter with a few male friends of mine that do generally "feminine" things. One of them has a whole collection of pink tops and the other likes to go to health spa's and have facials (hurr hurr ... yes I giggled when he said he likes facials because i'm that mature) and the like.

But folk do what folk want to do and i'm not going to go into full abuse mode due to people liking to do things I wouldn't normally associate with that gender.

I mean take my kids (literally, take them ... they do nothing but talk ... i'm joking, don't panic) my youngest daughter said "she wants to be like daddy" and at 7 year old has taken up Jeet Kune Do (funnily enough that's the age I started) and wants to join the army yet my son loves knitting, my wife taught him. I won't call him for it because I can't knit for shit and he's only 8 so fair do's to him. Plus he has aspirations of being a chef which is strange because no one in our house can cook (although i'm not going to pull the gender thing on the kitchen role seeing as some of the top chefs in the world are male .... and I am slightly jealous, i'd love to be able to cook like some of them do).

My step daughter and second youngest daughter are also tomboys and both love football. My daughter plays for the school team and my step daughter used to and they are both better than me (although, admittedly, i'm crap so that's not hard). The both love motorbikes too which is something else I know nothing about.

My other daughter is the only "typical" type in the house and loves all things girly .... and UFC.

Technically i'm the only actual "stereotype" in the house. I drink beer, watch sports, scratch my balls and have happy dreams about my muscles.

My wife swears like a trooper .. more than me (and that is saying something) and doesn't do much in the "girly" stakes either. When we got married she wore a white suit because "fuck dresses" were her exact words.

She never wears skirts only jeans and the only "girly" items of clothing she owns are a french maid outfit and a nurses uniform (not her work one, that's not very sexy) but that's another story and one for adults only.

Eddy-16:

TopazFusion:
Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

A key that can open many locks is a fucking awesome key, on the other hand a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

EDIT: Just realized that I didn't talk about the the topic.
OT: Erm Gender roles are bad I suppose, people shouldn't be judged for doing things they enjoy yadda yadda.

So what are we not supposed to have sex ever? To take the metaphor to the extreme, say that all women take that metaphor to heart and turn down every single guy because having sex is a bad thing. The metaphor implies that we're SUPPOSED to be hard to get, we're SUPPOSED to deny guys over and over again, but then that makes us prudes instead.

mechashiva77:
So what are we not supposed to have sex ever?

By all means have sex whenever and with who ever you want, I was just posting a joke just don't sleep around if you don't want to be called a slut I guess?

CAPTCHA: Big nose, Well now I feel insulted.

Eddy-16:

mechashiva77:
So what are we not supposed to have sex ever?

By all means have sex whenever and with who ever you want, I was just posting a joke just don't sleep around if you don't want to be called a slut I guess?

CAPTCHA: Big nose, Well now I feel insulted.

So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

mechashiva77:

Eddy-16:

mechashiva77:
So what are we not supposed to have sex ever?

By all means have sex whenever and with who ever you want, I was just posting a joke just don't sleep around if you don't want to be called a slut I guess?

CAPTCHA: Big nose, Well now I feel insulted.

So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

because society views men as being slaves to their sexual drives. You dont hear jokes about women having their brain in their pants.

EDIT:Not endorsing it or anything. Also "players" are viewed by society as immature/"missing the true meaning of life". Among a certain sub-set of men they may be adored, but not society as a whole.

on the flip side, a man who turns down sex is viewed as a freak.

(sorry Eddy)

Ryotknife:

mechashiva77:
So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

because society views men as being slaves to their sexual drives. You dont hear jokes about women having their brain in their pants.

I would say this, probably. I guess I could also put it down to double standards.

EDIT: People keep adding essays while I quote them, really don't know why I had to add this.

Ryotknife:

mechashiva77:

Eddy-16:

By all means have sex whenever and with who ever you want, I was just posting a joke just don't sleep around if you don't want to be called a slut I guess?

CAPTCHA: Big nose, Well now I feel insulted.

So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

because society views men as being slaves to their sexual drives. You dont hear jokes about women having their brain in their pants.

Not endorsing it or anything. Also "players" are viewed by society as immature/"missing the true meaning of life". Among a certain sub-set of men they may be adored, but not society as a whole.

True, double standards for everyone! :D

mechashiva77:

Ryotknife:

mechashiva77:

So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

because society views men as being slaves to their sexual drives. You dont hear jokes about women having their brain in their pants.

Not endorsing it or anything. Also "players" are viewed by society as immature/"missing the true meaning of life". Among a certain sub-set of men they may be adored, but not society as a whole.

True.

might want to expand on that post a little, wouldnt want to suffer mod wrath unwantingly for low content.

Ryotknife:
You dont hear jokes about women having their brain in their pants.

That's because the woman having a brain in the first place ruins most of the jokes.

(Obviously Rawne has been murdered by his wife or he'd have said something to that effect well before I got the chance to)

I really do think it's awful this exists. Men should be able to do feminine things if they want. Manicures and the like are relaxing, so at the minimum, it'd be good for stress levels.

That said, I am considered a social oddity for being female but loathing all beauty regimes. Don't wear make up, hate waxing and shaving, bite my nails and really I only use body creams because I have no desire to grow scales. Also, rarely wear dresses, only forced special occasions like weddings and such.

If I can do this and not be bothered by the reactions, I say let the men be pampered!

Ryotknife:

mechashiva77:
the true meaning of life". Among a certain sub-set of men they may be adored, but not society as a whole.

True.

[quote]might want to expand on that post a little, wouldnt want to suffer mod wrath unwantingly for low content.

Thanks, never slipped up on that until now o__o

Gender roles are societal constructs. Nothing more, nothing less. Society, in times before we had the accumulated lore we currently enjoy, thought that those gender roles were biological (and therefore immutable). They aren't. Of course, knowing that gender roles are arbitrary and mutable doesn't make them any easier to change to get rid of. Until traditionalism as a life philosophy doesn't die off, a lot of really stupid, harmful things are going to stay alive due to sheer cultural inertia.

I'm all for moving away from traditional gender roles.

I've often been derided by others, both female and male, for my interests and behavior. Though most people either change their minds or keep their opinions to themselves once they learn what I do for a living or find out some of my other hobbies.

Plus, non-traditional/tomboy girls make me go all spaghettios and the world needs more of them.

TopazFusion:
How has this not been posted yet?

image


Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

props for the C&H comic.

The Idea of women who sleep around being worse is a concept rooted in ancient & medieval tradition. If a women slept around, she could get pregnant, leading to someone other than her husband having claim to their property/fortune/land etc. As such, society reinforced the notion a woman's viginity and fidelity were her most important aspects in order to protect family property.

That's sort of a tough one. I don't believe there should be restrictions on roles based on gender but, at the same time, I do feel that there are definitely differences between genders. Some of the differences are pure physical/mechanical and others are mental, though how much of that aspect is born psychology and how much is learned I don't know.

I guess it's easiest to sum up my position by saying that merit, ability and desire should be given top billing, I won't deny that certain genders do seem to more easily excel in certain roles.

I'm of the opinion that people, regardless of gender, should be able to do what they like without feeling too much pressure from other people (within reason, of course). People shouldn't try to conform to traditional gender roles if they don't want to, but they shouldn't be pressured to avoid those roles if they're perfectly happy filling them. It's kind of sad that some people care so much about other people's lives that they pressure them into doing things they're not happy with.

I saw a thread here awhile back something like "Guys how do you feel getting beaten by a girl in games?"
How does gender decided how good you are at games? That girl could have been nature better at gaming or has put more hours into that game or genre to be better.

I wanted to post "Girls how does it feel when a guy is a better cook them you?" But stopped myself.
Maybe that guys hobby is cooking? Or has just cooked more to get better at it etc.

What I hate most about double standards are the ones that imply 1 sex is better at 1 activity just for being that sex.

Cazza:
I saw a thread here awhile back something like "Guys how do you feel getting beaten by a girl in games?"
How does gender decided how good you are at games? That girl could have been nature better at gaming or has put more hours into that game or genre to be better.

I wanted to post "Girls how does it feel when a guy is a better cook them you?" But stopped myself.
Maybe that guys hobby is cooking? Or has just cooked more to get better at it etc.

What I hate most about double standards are the ones that imply 1 sex is better at 1 activity just for being that sex.

"thank god, now he can do the cooking instead of me"?

When you come right down to it, cooking is a job.

mechashiva77:
Anyway. There's still a terrible double standard when it comes to women vs. men: the whole marriage/kids thing. It's perfectly fine if a man doesn't want either of those, but a woman is one of the following if she does't want a husband and kids:

I think this depends on a lot of factors, some of which may be cultural. As an older (well, compared to most Escapists) unmarried man, I've certainly heard incredulous comments about the way I live. And while my family has not harassed me much about it, it's clear they're somewhat unhappy with the fact that I'm not settled down. I've even had situations where I suspect one member of my family has gone fishing a little bit to see if I'll admit to being gay as an explanation for remaining single so late.

So I'm not saying that there isn't a double standard. Just don't overstate the case and portray men as totally okay.

A guy who doesn't want kids is:
...
3. Never going to grow up (not generally seen in a bad light)

I strongly disagree here. There's some tolerance for man children through and maybe even a little past university, but trust me, men over a certain age who don't "grow up" are definitely seen in a very bad light.

I dislike most gender roles. I'm really particular on the whole kids thing. Marriage is meh because I'd like to get married one day, though I'm in no rush. But children? NEVER. And I hope to God I never run into people IRL who say some of that shit about me because I'm a woman. I will punch them.

But connected to the physical/mechanical part of gender roles, I tend to sorta be for those, I think. Mostly.

American Football, for example. I look at a woman wanting to play said sport with the boys not that they shouldn't do it but that I wonder if they know what they're getting into. This is a physical sort of situation. Do you know how big some of those guys are in American football? And how stats say the average man is stronger than the average woman? And you wanna go out there and get tackled? When guys get seriously injured on their own?

Well... more power to you, hun. I'm just gonna be up here in the safety of the bleachers.

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