What do you think about gender roles?
I think they are needed
15.2% (66)
15.2% (66)
They shouldn't exist
67.5% (293)
67.5% (293)
Women are allowed to break them but not men
4.6% (20)
4.6% (20)
Men are allowed to break them but not women
0.7% (3)
0.7% (3)
Other
12% (52)
12% (52)
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Poll: A Certain Double Standard

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Vault101:

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

your gonna need to expand on that slighy

I mean I have no friggen Idea how to use make up, my brother wouldn't be able to work his way around a PS3 controller or mouse/keyboard setup

some people just dont fit "roles"

Endorse the things you're good at or you have fun doing, and if those things happen to fit gender roles, don't discard those things for the sake of not fitting the picture.

There's significantly more votes for "its ok for girls" then "its ok got guys" pathetic

But my own stance is it makes no difference, gender roles are fairly meaningless until we address other double standards relating to general treatment and gender equality that is actually that and not just looking the other way whenever a woman breaks the law

Yeah, I know!
How come when a girl sleeps around with a bunch of men, but when I do the same all of a sudden I'm gay?

I've learnt better than to say I have evidence for this, but I think gender roles originate in differences, psychological and physical, between males and females, and therefore that they are not 'needed', shouldn't be enforced, and will exist without encouragement from society. I can't prove this of course, just as those who say they are purely social constructs and without them the interests of different genders would be much more diverse cannot prove that (as far as I know). I think there is a lot less pressure in modern society, even to the point where parents don't want their child exposed to 'typical' gender stereotypes (like dolls and pink for girls, cars and blue for boys), to conform to gender roles. As far as I know, gender is not much of a factor at all in determining whether you can study in your preferred field and become employed (unless it's construction or something like that). And yet more females still study the arts rather than pursue jobs in mining or science.

And other than that, basically I think it's because women sort of had their femeninity forced upon them and treated unfairly/given special treatment that they are allowed to do typically male things now. It's empowering because males were dominant in ages past. Which is kind of sexist, because when I think about it it's like I've said "Girls can do it because if you say anything about it, that means you're enforcing gender roles which is taboo because they're women." Trousers are also more practical.

tl;dr: I have no evidence for anything. Good day to you.

I don't know anything for certain, but my gut tells me that I'm hungry.

Femininity is usually equated with being innocent, weak and vulnerable.
Masculinity is usually equated with being assertive, strong, and in command.

When a woman is seen as assertive, strong, and in command then she is progressive.
When a man is innocent, weak and vulnerable then it is a step back.

We're still suffering the growing pains of age-old gendered rolls which are being subverted extraordinarily rapidly in modern times: hell, in the last ten years the different between me hugging a male friend (without beating the shit out of his back, seriously when did this become the thing to do?) has changed from 'definitely gay' to 'eh, must be close friends...or maybe they're gay?'

We're changing fast, all we need to do is wait for the previous two generations to die off and we'll be free. FREE!

EDIT -

Singularly Datarific:
Yeah, I know!
How come when a girl sleeps around with a bunch of men, but when I do the same all of a sudden I'm gay?

I ask your permission to use this joke all the time and pretend I was clever enough to make it.

Please?

SimpleThunda':

GunsmithKitten:

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

What should you make of it, pray tell? Should you then use that statement to forbid women from doing what is viewed as traditional male tasks, or vice versa? Is something that vastly general be used to dictate individual lives?

I don't care what you do with your life. Just don't do things for the sole purpose of avoiding gender roles or endorsing them, either because you don't want to fit the picture or do.

Sort of goes against your statement then, as being a female, i am automatically incompetent at some things and automatically competent at others...

GunsmithKitten:

SimpleThunda':

GunsmithKitten:

What should you make of it, pray tell? Should you then use that statement to forbid women from doing what is viewed as traditional male tasks, or vice versa? Is something that vastly general be used to dictate individual lives?

I don't care what you do with your life. Just don't do things for the sole purpose of avoiding gender roles or endorsing them, either because you don't want to fit the picture or do.

Sort of goes against your statement then, as being a female, i am automatically incompetent at some things and automatically competent at others...

Nowhere did I claim that you're somehow not allowed to do the things you are incompetent at.
Just don't do those things for the sake of not fitting the gender roles.

Jerram Fahey:
Someone's probably already put forward the exact same argument, but whatever; my two cents:

Gender roles will always exist as long as males and females exist. Despite what new-agers tend to think about gender fluidity and things like that, the male and female bodies are biologically different. There are relatively few actually transgendered individuals; the rest are little more than fetishists. Gender fanboys/girls. People that are enamoured with the idea of roleplaying a different gender, without any mental condition. These people tend to cross-dress and identify with the other (or either) gender yet still retain many emotional and behavioural traits common to their biological sex. Gender abolitionists like to overlook the fact that male and female bodies/minds are empirically different. So there will ALWAYS be things that either biological sex prefers/excels at, from which gender roles spring from.

On the question of whether or not these roles should be forced upon people, no I don't think they should. Women shouldn't have to stay at home and raise the kids, and men shouldn't have to work 60 hours a week to support their family. If that's what they want to do - and biology suggests the majority do, to varying extents - then go for it.

Biology.

I reeeeeeally don't think you know what that word means, sir. You are referring to stats and stereotypes. There is no gene for 'work 60 hours a week'.

Copper Zen:
Men and women tend to behave differently from one another. No one will contest that--but gender roles often crop up because of this.

I read an article where a man talked about him and his wife falling into the "classic model" of him working and her staying at home taking care of their new baby. This surprised the HELL out of them both--I think she made more money than him. And they were both 'progressive' or 'modern' thinkers or whatever you call couples who aren't wedded to the classic model.

To the best of my memory their situation came about basically because she enjoyed caring for the baby more than he did and one of them needed to stay at home and take care of the baby--at least early on.

Nothing sweeping here, but it's telling I think. When folks aren't involved in public political stuff and are in the privacy of their own homes and lives 'traditional models' may crop up simply because--GASP--men and women are different!

I can attest to a similar situation with my girlfriend where we both started unconsciously following gender norms. However, the real question is should be people be derided for not following gender norms? You haven't really answered the question.

mechashiva77:

Eddy-16:

mechashiva77:
So what are we not supposed to have sex ever?

By all means have sex whenever and with who ever you want, I was just posting a joke just don't sleep around if you don't want to be called a slut I guess?

CAPTCHA: Big nose, Well now I feel insulted.

So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

I'm pretty sure it's because girls don't have trouble getting laid like guys do.

For a guy, getting lots of different people to have sex with you is pretty difficult, so if you can do it it's seen as fairly respectable. It requires a certain caliber of... whatever makes men appealing to women, don't ask me.

For a girl, on the other hand, finding a guy willing to have sex is kinda like shooting fish in a barrel. So having lots of sex with different people just means you choose to have lots of sex with different people. You don't necessarily have to be really attractive or likable like with a guy.

SimpleThunda':

Vault101:

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

your gonna need to expand on that slighy

I mean I have no friggen Idea how to use make up, my brother wouldn't be able to work his way around a PS3 controller or mouse/keyboard setup

some people just dont fit "roles"

Endorse the things you're good at or you have fun doing, and if those things happen to fit gender roles, don't discard those things for the sake of not fitting the picture.

I suspect you fail to understand what a gender role is. That said there are people stupid enough to interpret "don't follow gender roles" to "do the opposite of gender roles" so I guess I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

SimpleThunda':

GunsmithKitten:

SimpleThunda':

I don't care what you do with your life. Just don't do things for the sole purpose of avoiding gender roles or endorsing them, either because you don't want to fit the picture or do.

Sort of goes against your statement then, as being a female, i am automatically incompetent at some things and automatically competent at others...

Nowhere did I claim that you're somehow not allowed to do the things you are incompetent at.
Just don't do those things for the sake of not fitting the gender roles.

That...was never brought up at all.

Are you accusing people of something? Cuz I'm pretty sure people don't choose to face discrimination because it's trendy.

There's always going to be double standards when the social ideal differs from reality. The social ideal for gender equality is that everyone can do everything everyone else can do, which is true to an extent, but it attempts to treat both genders as identical except physically, which is simply not true. Each gender has many unique traits in physiology and psychology that result in different reactions to situations, and different strengths or weaknesses of character.

What I'm trying to say is that everyone, genders, cultures and races included, are different. The way we're trying to enforce 'equality' now is to say everyone should do the same thing, which is wrong. Gender roles exist in every species on the planet with a gender, they're important and natural. However, that gender role shouldn't affect a person's potential for success, should they choose to follow a path that isn't on the standard for their gender or race.

This is slightly garbled, I'm quite tired, but basically what I'm saying is we should be accepting our differences and keeping gender roles, so long as no one is forced to take the gender role if that does not suit them, as lately I see a lot of people who seem to consider that a woman who chooses to give up a job and look after her children is somehow "detrimental" to the work of feminists, even though the fact she had the freedom to make that choice herself is more equality than the expectation that she should want a job, rather than being a homemaker and mother.

To the poll: I voted for them existing, on the exception that they're not enforced but chosen, as each gender has unique strengths which allow them, in general, to perform better at certain tasks than others. So long as someone can choose to ignore this and do what they want, gender roles existing as an easy to break guideline is fine.

I give the finger to my gender role every day and I get many looks and rude comments because of it. The life of a transgender is a tough one.

Rose and Thorn:
I give the finger to my gender

It works so much better out of context, don't you think?

mechashiva77:

So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

Because slut is a word intended for girls. Just like you don't call a man who's got a child a mother you don't call a man who sleeps around a slut. As it is now we have a lot of other negative slurs to use about men who sleep around. The "Men pride themselves in having slept with a lot of girls" thing is more about immaturity. As we grow up this is not accepted in the same way. Then men get judged for not being commit to a relationship.

OT: Voted other. I don't think gender roles shouldn't exist, because they exist for a reason. Newsflash: men and women are different. Our brain development is different, women have less dominance in the right hemisphere than men which usually means they will be ahead intellectually for the first few years of their life before men catch up at some point (exceptions always exist though).
Now a gender specific thing is mother/father. There's nothing to suggest that men can't be caring enough or skilled enough to take care of a child, but there is something preventing a man from giving birth and that is his lack of female reproductive organs.

Men and women are different, thus different gender roles should exist. However I do not think they are needed. Does anyone need to fit the gender role to be a father or to be a mother? I wouldn't think so, gay couples can manage it without the need for these roles, single parents have managed it.

Now I am all for letting women and men have equal rights, but that doesn't mean I think men and women are the same. Now you might say I sound disrespectful here, but I see it as the opposite. I respect our differences rather than ignore them. If a woman wants to be masculine I can't see why not. Gender roles shouldn't prevent her from doing what she likes. If a man is feminine why shouldn't he be allowed to? Gender roles exist for a reason, but I don't think they should matter. It's merely a way of grouping people with similarities together. Just like we do with gamers, republicans, librarians, teachers or doctors. Compartmentalize our memories in order to get a general view of a person based on all the different categories that person fit into.

Now I have been rambling a lot here, but this is the way I see it.

RhombusHatesYou:

Rose and Thorn:
I give the finger to my gender

It works so much better out of context, don't you think?

Mmmmmmm you dirty, dirty boy. Now that the heat has been turned up, I think I'll pour myself another drink.

Hmm as close minded as this sounds I think they should exist simply because they differentiate between groups. Yes I know equality for all, but equality when taking to the extreme eliminates some individualistic characteristics of people. Although if you remove gender roles maybe then more individualistic qualities surface, hmmmm I think we need gender roles just to have some sort of reference point. I mean we shouldn't necessarily assume gender roles are bad as a lot of people constantly confuse it with the negative outlook of sexism. If only people could choose to follow gender roles and not get chastised for their choice, if only...

Overusedname:
Biology.

I reeeeeeally don't think you know what that word means, sir. You are referring to stats and stereotypes. There is no gene for 'work 60 hours a week'.

So it's just coincidence that men fell into that role? I think not. Of course there's no 60 hour work week gene - that's absurd. What's not absurd is the notion that males are biologically predisposed to being providers and females are biologically predisposed to raising children. Does this mean ALL men are providers and ALL women are child raisers, again no of course not. But evolution has certainly geared us in that direction.

mechashiva77:
This isn't going to end well. Good lord it will not, and yet I still feel compelled to make this post.

A hypocrisy I often see is that it's ok for women to do/like masculine things, but it's not ok for men to do/like feminine things. People will often come to the defense of a woman wearing pants or watching Samurai Jack, but will harp on a man for manicuring his nails or watching My Little Pony (I can understand being put-off by crazy fans, but I am strictly talking about those who chide fans for watching a show aimed at girls). I vehemently disagree with it.

So against my better judgement, I would like to know what you all think about this.

So what made you bring up the whole gender role thing? I am curious to know if it is something that you are going through personally, or just something you are interested in.

Fighting my gender role is a big part of my life, I am always curious to hear peoples opinions and thoughts on the subject, especially if they are going through it themselves.

I also try to wrap my head around how much people hate those that branch into the opposite gender roles of their sex.

So you said you felt compelled to post your topic, why was that? If anything is too personal feel free to send me a PM message! :)

Gender Roles SHOULD exist, because men and women are, quite bluntly, not the same, and if gender roles didn't exist it would be because people were artificially forcing them not to exist to maintain some misguided sense of equality. Men and women, generally speaking, enjoy different things, and thus gender roles exist.

What I am against, however, is the enforcement of gender roles in any way. As much as men and women are different, each individual is different too, and this leads to the inevitability of those who are not the same as what their gender role describes. There is nothing wrong with this, and people like that should not be forced to fill the gender role usually associated to their gender.

Can I say something that should be obvious?

We are not anatomically identical. We are not psychologically, biochemically, or biometrically identical.

We are not the same.

You can apply equal rights and equal roles to many things, but not EVERYTHING.

I am not saying that gender roles are all good. Many of the are crap. However, many of them are stuff that human society has settled down to based on millennia of experience and derive from basic, biological realities.

For example, men are the "hunters". They are physically better built for that. They are stronger and more aggressive, statistically, by nature. It wouldn't make much sense to pit a male, heavy-weight boxer against his female counterpart. It wouldn't make any sense for the same male, heavy-weight boxer to try and breast-feed his newborn child...

Many of the gender roles stem from the fact that WE ARE NOT IDENTICAL or EQUAL in many things.

people need to stop acting as if the notion of gender roles are a heinous crime. the truth is, the majority of the population prefers when the opposite gender fulfils the criteria of their specific sex. these are not arbitrary rules put in place by the 'patriarchy'(I know this is not something you find on escapist, but I hear this term all the time on tumblr and it pisses me off) they are simply biologically advantageous. Its a set of rules which benefit society. As a general rule, men are preferred to be dominant, women are preferred to be submissive. I think this is actually beneficial for women, they thought that 300 years ago the world was depressing sludge but they don't even have a clue what men had to put up with. the 'privilege' of working unsafe hours in a factory, while you are 'forced' to enjoy a fulfilling life looking after your children and whining about the oppressor. It is hard from a female perspective to see the stress being a man incurs, i would refer you to numerous cases of FtM transeuxals reverting to female because life as a man is too hard. modern feminists often fight for more rights and the same responsibilities (you want me to pay for dinner? LOLNO) and often reject gender roles when it suits them (i should be a fireman even if i cant preform to the standards of my peers!). the worst thing the modern feminist movement has done is contradict themselves and show how really they are female supremacists. an example

http://i.imgur.com/XIi1I.jpg

mechashiva77:
So against my better judgement, I would like to know what you all think about this.

When I can be arsed thinking about it, it can be summarised as "People should give far less of a fuck about what other people are doing than what they do." If people find themselves happier conforming to certain gender roles, good for them, if they find themselves happier not conforming to gender roles, good for them as well. Who is anyone else to judge them about it? Arsewipes, that's who.

People should be allowed to pick and choose what gender roles they'll adopt or shun in life for themselves without a bunch of judgemental pricks geting their feelings all hurt about it. I'd like to hurt their feelings with a brick.

Rose and Thorn:

RhombusHatesYou:

Rose and Thorn:
I give the finger to my gender

It works so much better out of context, don't you think?

Mmmmmmm you dirty, dirty boy. Now that the heat has been turned up, I think I'll pour myself another drink.

I'll go and make the party hats.

mechashiva77:

Eddy-16:

mechashiva77:
So what are we not supposed to have sex ever?

By all means have sex whenever and with who ever you want, I was just posting a joke just don't sleep around if you don't want to be called a slut I guess?

CAPTCHA: Big nose, Well now I feel insulted.

So why do guys get to sleep around without being called a slut but we do? Why aren't we allowed to enjoy it as much as they do? It's not like we're less careful.

Because a slut is a woman that sleeps around while a gigilo is a manwhore. Same reason you have words like Steward and Stewardess and despite certain people's best efforts to make it so English is not a fully gender neutral language. So next time you see a guy acting like an easy ho, start calling him a gigilo. It might catch on.

Gender roles are annoying and stupid.
It irritates me when male friends of mine are shocked (shocked!) that I know how to do `manly` things, like playing poker. Which apparently requires penis to learn.

This is how I see it- Everything I do is ladylike.
I'm a lady doing what I like.

However, emasculation and men being feminine being SO WRONG is another thing that pisses me off, probably more than how people get onto me about being unfeminine.
It presumes that you are a man by outside factors. That masculinity is about being strong but itself is so weak it needs to be coddled by women acting a certain way as to not `emasculate` others around them.
Nobody is going to force you into a dress because I can open my own jars.
If you're male-identifying, you're a man, relax.
And if you wanna do something feminine, fuck what everyone else thinks.

Basically, if you want to conform to gender norms, good for you, but don't look down on those who do not and vice versa.

DevilWithaHalo:

* It's extremely rare to find complaints on roles from the gender that benefits from them.
* The majority of gender chastising seems to come from within the same gender.

I agree completely, especially with your second point. All the time (even in this thread) we have people saying "Why are girls sluts and men players?" But you know what, I've only ever heard one guy call a woman a slut but he calls literally every woman a slut and makes horrible racist comments at least twice a day. The people calling girls sluts seem to be other girls 9 times out of 10. Same goes for being a player. Men call other men players. Though I think its worth noting that this attitude dies down later in life and exists only in a small but vocal social group.

I hate people that make sweeping generalisations.

SimpleThunda':

I don't care what you do with your life. Just don't do things for the sole purpose of avoiding gender roles or endorsing them, either because you don't want to fit the picture or do.

What if avoiding gender roles IS what makes them happy?

Direbaka:

Eddy-16:

A key that can open many locks is a fucking awesome key, on the other hand a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

Not to pick on you, but I've never liked that analogy. One can mess around with the concept though:

"A wall socket that can turn on any plug is an amazing wall socket. A plug that can plug into any wall socket is an amazing plug."

"A wrench that can turn any bolt is an amazing wrench. A bolt that can be turned by any wrench is a weird bolt."

"A mailbox that can hold any package is useful. A package that can fit in any mailbox is small."

How about one more apt to this site?

"A console that can play any game is an amazing console. A game that can be played on any console is not defined by traditional video game values."

Haha, loving this.

As for the poll, where the hell is the "It's ok for men and women to break gender roles" option? That would be the only logical thing to say.

Gender roles are tough.

If I had kids, I would try to keep them away from them. I wouldn't give my boy guns, I wouldn't give my daughter dolls. They would get LEGO, I've already decided on that. :) And I'd hate for my daughter to grow up wanting to become a princess, model or stewardess.

OTOH, some gender roles are a must for me. While I, as a man, am terrible at repairing anything, I would never wear dresses or skirts. Maybe a kilt though. And when my make friends would start to, I'd be seriously irritated, to say the least.

What can I say?

Sexism isn't dead yet.

I mean, I think my country (America, and north of the Mason-Dixon line) is becoming more progressive in terms of acceptance of people functioning outside traditional roles, but we have a long way to go.

Personal note: the disparity between 'girl who sleeps around = whore' and 'guy who sleeps around = playa' pisses me off to no end. If you sleep with people for the sake of sleeping with people, you're a whore. Period. Gotten into several rather vocal disagreements with douchebags of various flavors over that.

I'm fine with them existing but people should be allowed to break them if they want. After all they are bound to exist due the simple fact that men and women are different. Gender roles will exist no matter what in jobs like mechanics and builders, men are just more interested (and some would argue more physically appropriate to a job where you haul heavy things all day) in those roles than women. Same goes for hairdresser, stylist and seamstress. Those gender roles are there because women like those things more than men on the whole.

It's just the way our societies are, I have no problem with it but people should be allowed to break them if they want.

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