What do you think about gender roles?
I think they are needed
14.9% (65)
14.9% (65)
They shouldn't exist
66.9% (291)
66.9% (291)
Women are allowed to break them but not men
4.6% (20)
4.6% (20)
Men are allowed to break them but not women
0.7% (3)
0.7% (3)
Other
12% (52)
12% (52)
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Poll: A Certain Double Standard

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I don't think it's wrong, per sec.

Not classy/not a good look, sure, but not wrong.

I get annoyed when people either: brag about it, like it's something people should commend them for, or apply the 'I'm a playa, she's a whore' double standard.

TopazFusion:
How has this not been posted yet?

image

Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

You make an interesting point but isn't that more of a social perspective problem. Although the dictionary(online dictionary)specifically states slut as being an immoral/dirty woman, when I hear the word slut it generally translates to me as a promiscuous female and player is a promiscuous male and nothing more. Its just a word title that describes the behavior of a person and really should have no negative or positive attachments to it, slut is a fine word at conveying a females behavioral habits and should not be viewed as offensive imo. However its people identifying that behavior as traditionally immoral and associate it with being bad/immoral.

Also i'd like people to refrain from the "Key dick" defense because it is a clever metaphor but its quite a stretch, if any thing sexual double standards are biology's fault, as a male you can spread nearly an indefinite amount of seeds and bear many children so you have the option to choose many partners that are fertile. As a female you only get 1 every 9 months and a set amount of eggs through out your life, so you pretty much have to choose he right mate to bear that one child with, especially with the tradition of choosing a mate with resources.

Disclaimer: Not everyone wants to have kids and some people just can't but you're still subconsciously under the influence of your biological nature. In a perfect world there wouldn't be double standards but in my opinion this is the root of male vs female sexual double standards.

fapper plain:
I don't think it's wrong, per sec.

Not classy/not a good look, sure, but not wrong.

I get annoyed when people either: brag about it, like it's something people should commend them for, or apply the 'I'm a playa, she's a whore' double standard.

That's understandable. I couldn't tell you meant that by your previous post. ( I really just wanted to say the first sentence, but that would risk mod wrath o__o)

other

Given a choice, I pick a dutiful housewife when playing Skyrim, like Camilla Valeris. An adventurous one would likely go fight a troll and leave dishes in the sink. I also downloaded a mod so that she gives me more than 1 meal per day. I do all the work while she sits in the cozy hearthed home reading my extensive library of ancient texts and dressing in enchanted jewelry I leave for her. She might as well make me 3 square meals.

I don't have a problem with men doing feminine things, but I worry about what would happen if that becomes the norm.

I don't want to wear makeup or get manicures, but what if that becomes expected of men (like one could say it's expected of women now)? Would I lose out on a job because I didn't wear makeup to the interview? Would not wearing it be seen as 'not putting the effort in', like not combing my hair and not having a shave the morning before the interview?

DrunkenMonkey:
I mean we shouldn't necessarily assume gender roles are bad as a lot of people constantly confuse it with the negative outlook of sexism. If only people could choose to follow gender roles and not get chastised for their choice, if only...

But if those gender roles didn't exist, people couldn't get chastised for falling into them. If a girl likes pink and flowers, it's okay. But don't assume that all girls like that stuff. I didn't, and yet I got barbies and ponies as gifts... I specifically asked for 'monster-dolls', and one of the relatives bought me this overly cute dragon-thing, saying "We had hard time finding a monster-toy that's fitting for a girl."
At that moment, at 7, I became an advocate for gender-equality. Because boys had all the gool toys.

These kinds of gender-roles change depending on culture and time, what is girly now can be manly the next century.
Why care? I don't care about the sex or gender of people, except if I'm interested in them romantically.

I spent a lot of time with my grandparents as a kid, and they had very traditional gender-roles; grandma did the house work inside, grandpa outside (for the most part). But I always liked the outdoorsy stuff more, so I usually helped grandpa.

And I was allowed to do that. But it's not too long ago that at home boys weren't expected to help with housework, so of course grown men couldn't do it either.

I like to cook. Is that against gender roles?

Men are supposed to only like to barbecue ribs or something.

Vault101:

Eddy-16:

A key that can open many locks is a fucking awesome key, on the other hand a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

CAPTIN KEYDICK!!!!?? WHERE? WHERE IS HE I'LL KILL HIM

you pulled a captin keydick..BAD! bad analogy!

To be honest, every single time I read this I need to restrain myself from making a joke which would probably get me burned at the stake, but NO MORE restraining my immature tencendies I say.

On topic:
Gender roles bad, blabla, maybe let everyone be themselves blabla, done to death blablub.

SimpleThunda':

Never was it my intention to shut anyone up, let alone you in particular.

Never mind. I read more forward. Now I know what you meant.

SimpleThunda':
About your comment:

Are you saying people shouldn't do things they aren't capable of, eventhough they might have fun doing it?

Last time I checked, the phrase "aren't capable of" meant "couldn't do it even if you tried". I'm sure it'd be fun to grow wings and fly, but I'm sure as hell not capable of that.

Joccaren:
Gender Roles SHOULD exist, because men and women are, quite bluntly, not the same, and if gender roles didn't exist it would be because people were artificially forcing them not to exist to maintain some misguided sense of equality. Men and women, generally speaking, enjoy different things, and thus gender roles exist.

What I am against, however, is the enforcement of gender roles in any way. As much as men and women are different, each individual is different too, and this leads to the inevitability of those who are not the same as what their gender role describes. There is nothing wrong with this, and people like that should not be forced to fill the gender role usually associated to their gender.

Those 2 paragraphs seem very contradictory to me. You do know what gender roles are, right? Let's try to be more specific. Genders are different biologically. people are different mentally.

I'm going to re-contextualize the "gender rolls" discussion just a little bit.

I have a gay male friend. But the thing about him is that he is one of the most quintessentially "straight" people I know. He watches Football (American Football) And gets upset with me when I call it HandEgg. He plays Call of Duty and Halo. He chastises me for liking musicals and My Little Pony (And I'm strait and find no shame in it) He doesn't present himself well in the way you'd expect a stereotypical gay person would. He drives a Mustang, and drinks beer, etc.

People think he's misrepresenting himself, but that's not the case.

When you think about the girls who like football and videogames and hate manicures, makeup and other girly things.
Would you think they're misrepresenting themselves?

If you saw a woman wearing pants you wouldn't look twice,
If you saw a man in a dress you'd call him a transvestite.

I don't really like that Male oriented stuff is open season, while female oriented stuff it taboo.
Like you put MLP in the OP, I would have never said MLP is a girl's show. (A kid's show, sure but not a girl's show) Is that only because I've been watching it from the start, and the only other people I know who watch it are guys? (Bronies? I've never heard of a Femmnie)

It seems to me like Shame is a male dominated emotion.
This you can't like "girly" things or else people will think you're gay! and women can like "manly" things with no consequence.

Being a guy (A strait guy) who likes some girly things I don't like the double standards. But they're not going anywhere.

Something I've been struggling with a lot recently is how much of the difference between men and women is truly inherent differences and howmuch is just societal. It's generally thought that there's at least some fundamental psychological distinction. From my own experiences, I would say that the difference is, at the very most, that each gender is predisposed slightly to certain personality traits, but I'm not a psychologist or anything.

It's not that it actually matters--even if, for instance, boys are inherently more fond of action figures than dollhouses (which I doubt) that's no reason to ridicule or even discourage a boy for playing with dolls. I just think it would help with discussions like this to know where the line was.

Lieju:

DrunkenMonkey:
I mean we shouldn't necessarily assume gender roles are bad as a lot of people constantly confuse it with the negative outlook of sexism. If only people could choose to follow gender roles and not get chastised for their choice, if only...

But if those gender roles didn't exist, people couldn't get chastised for falling into them. If a girl likes pink and flowers, it's okay. But don't assume that all girls like that stuff. I didn't, and yet I got barbies and ponies as gifts... I specifically asked for 'monster-dolls', and one of the relatives bought me this overly cute dragon-thing, saying "We had hard time finding a monster-toy that's fitting for a girl."
At that moment, at 7, I became an advocate for gender-equality. Because boys had all the gool toys.

These kinds of gender-roles change depending on culture and time, what is girly now can be manly the next century.
Why care? I don't care about the sex or gender of people, except if I'm interested in them romantically.

I spent a lot of time with my grandparents as a kid, and they had very traditional gender-roles; grandma did the house work inside, grandpa outside (for the most part). But I always liked the outdoorsy stuff more, so I usually helped grandpa.

And I was allowed to do that. But it's not too long ago that at home boys weren't expected to help with housework, so of course grown men couldn't do it either.

Sorry I bungled up my post a lot, I meant to say if only people can could choose to follow or not follow respective gender roles and not get chastised for the choice made.

Eddy-16:

TopazFusion:
Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

A key that can open many locks is a fucking awesome key, on the other hand a lock that is opened by many keys is a shitty lock.

Just because a "key" is small enough to go inside a lock, doesn't mean it fits.

;-)

SimpleThunda':

Nowhere did I claim that you're somehow not allowed to do the things you are incompetent at.

LOL. "You are perfectly entitled to attempt the things that you will be incompetent at because of your tiny irrational woman brain."

No, that's unfair. Before the Shewee came along we were quite incompetent at peeing standing up.

rainz555:
As a general rule, men are preferred to be dominant, women are preferred to be submissive. I think this is actually beneficial for women, they thought that 300 years ago the world was depressing sludge but they don't even have a clue what men had to put up with. the 'privilege' of working unsafe hours in a factory, while you are 'forced' to enjoy a fulfilling life looking after your children and whining about the oppressor.

"They don't even have a clue what men had to put up with."
"A fulfilling life looking after your children." Pffft hahaha. Stop, you're killing me.

No, really, what are oppressed people really complaining about anyway? It's way harder to be the oppressor and make all the hard decisions about how often to beat your wife and how to distribute the slaves on your plantation.

TopazFusion:

Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

Something I blame entirely on women.

I'm in a male dominated job, there are a few women I work with who are known for their promiscuity - The only people I've ever heard talking about it negatively are the other women I work with.

Anecdotal I know, however when it comes to these kinds of double standards I honestly believe women are their own worst enemies.

Easton Dark:
I like to cook. Is that against gender roles?

Nope. Best Chefs in the world are men. If anything women should go crack on with fixing cars (there's a lot of fiddly bits requiring small, dexterous hands), whilst we go ahead and make decent food. Clearly they're shit at it.

Truth is, they're shit at ironing too - Our lass isn't allowed near my clothes anymore for a reason.

Basically, no women anywhere should be allowed to do anything.

...

For those who have yet to cotton on, those last couple of sentences are very tongue in cheek. So calm the fuck down.

Stu35:

TopazFusion:

Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

Something I blame entirely on women.

I'm in a male dominated job, there are a few women I work with who are known for their promiscuity - The only people I've ever heard talking about it negatively are the other women I work with.

Anecdotal I know, however when it comes to these kinds of double standards I honestly believe women are their own worst enemies.

eh, i imagine when it comes to gender roles that your own gender is your worst enemy. It is common for men to make fun of other men who bend their roles, but it is not very common for men to make fun of women for bending their role. vice versa for women, I would imagine that women are pretty accepting of men who bend their roles.

Ryotknife:

Stu35:

TopazFusion:

Anyway, to add more fuel to the fire, isn't it interesting how a guy that sleeps around is a "player", and yet a girl that sleeps around is a "slut".

Something I blame entirely on women.

I'm in a male dominated job, there are a few women I work with who are known for their promiscuity - The only people I've ever heard talking about it negatively are the other women I work with.

Anecdotal I know, however when it comes to these kinds of double standards I honestly believe women are their own worst enemies.

eh, i imagine when it comes to gender roles that your own gender is your worst enemy. It is common for men to make fun of other men who bend their roles, but it is not very common for men to make fun of women for bending their role. vice versa for women, I would imagine that women are pretty accepting of men who bend their roles.

Very good point, very well presented. I agree wholeheartedly. A further bit of anecdotal evidence - We had a bloke wear a vest to Rugby training last night, got the piss taken out of him all night long (despite the fact that professional rugby league players train in vests regularly).

It's not something that is influenced by singular people or events, but by the collective subconcious.
If I just ignore these problems, and treat everyone with respect, all these problems will disappear eventually.

The only problems in society are the ones we create ourselves.

Joccaren:
Gender Roles SHOULD exist, because men and women are, quite bluntly, not the same, and if gender roles didn't exist it would be because people were artificially forcing them not to exist to maintain some misguided sense of equality. Men and women, generally speaking, enjoy different things, and thus gender roles exist.

What I am against, however, is the enforcement of gender roles in any way. As much as men and women are different, each individual is different too, and this leads to the inevitability of those who are not the same as what their gender role describes. There is nothing wrong with this, and people like that should not be forced to fill the gender role usually associated to their gender.

The problem is that just by gender roles existing there's pressure to fit into them. So long that people automatically think about sports, violence, cars and guns everytime they think of a man there will be people who find it weird when they meet someone who doesn't fit into that description.

I see no need for there to be any standard for what a 'normal' man or woman should be like. I've seen some posts in this thread say how the genders are different on average, but you shouldn't make assumptions based on averages, it's easy enough to go case by case with each person. While women might be physically weaker on average, not every woman is. I'd imagine it'd be pretty condescending for a man to step in and insist he lifts something just because you're supposed to be weaker than him. It's easy enough just not to make the assumption in the first place and help only if it looks like it's needed. Not to mention that there's not many people who fit perfectly into their gender role, and many who do only do because of the enormous societal pressure (note I'm not saying all by any stretch).

i just think that since we are biologically different, there gender rolls make sense are are necessary.
But it is not just gender roles. I think even within the same gender there are roles that come associated with the body build etc.

Angie7F:
I think even within the same gender there are roles that come associated with the body build etc.

The first person to suggest that taller people have an obligation to help shorter people lift things off high shelves get's popped in the mouth. We are people with feelings! We are not just pieces of meat for you to use when it suits you!

It's only a double standard if one person holds it. I'm not all that sure that there are women walking around in their trousers feeling masculine, because, you know, trousers, and then ragging on MLP fans for being feminine. And there's no guarantee that someone like that is doing it in reference to gender roles. I mean, on the face of it it's a ridiculous oversimplification of everything, and I'm really suprised that the "Generalisations" crew aren't in spamming everywhere.

SimpleThunda':
Men and women aren't similair. Men are good at certain things, women are good at certain things. Make of that what you will.

Gotta disagree with ya there. A person of any gender is "good" at something because they were conditioned to be, that's the foundation of gender roles. A woman can be better at fixing cars than a man, a man can be better at sewing than a woman. The physiological differences between men and women are minor, their use in justifying gender roles is a construct .

Vault101:

CAPTIN KEYDICK!!!!?? WHERE? WHERE IS HE I'LL KILL HIM

you pulled a captin keydick..BAD! bad analogy!

Haha, I've gotta use that as a username somewhere.

OT: Where I live, not adhering to 'traditional' gender roles isn't seen as that sort of thing. Hell, one of the most 'manly' guys I know is a hairdresser.

uneek:
Those 2 paragraphs seem very contradictory to me. You do know what gender roles are, right? Let's try to be more specific. Genders are different biologically. people are different mentally.

And that does nothing to make my two paragraphs contradictory. Part of that biological difference comes with a mental difference too. As such, the majority of women will behave similarly in many aspects in ways that are different to men, and vice versa.
However, there are always exceptions to this, and such roles should not be enforced - those who wish to follow them can, those that don't are fine not too.

Basically what I said overall was men and women are different, and will form into different roles that are generally similar to the rest of the gender's, though not always, whether or not society interferes, and this should be allowed to happen. No need to start pressuring women to start liking guns and cars and such because they're apparently a guy thing, and they should like them so there aren't gender roles any more, and no need to pressure them not to like them, because they're a guy thing and women shouldn't be doing them. Basically, live and let live, though this will generally lead to a formation of gender roles anyway.

Clearly, there is only one correct answer. As always, the answer is bacon.

I don't believe in gender roles at all. So it's not even stupid or not stupid to me. Just doesn't exist. The fact people believe they exist is stupid to me.

People should stop defining themselves and their actions and likes vs dislikes on their physical sex.

Oh, and girls are expected to become women after a certain age. The tomboy thing passes until about 18. Then they are considered weird at the least, or lesbians. So the double standard isn't as strong as people think, even with kids. Women are less of a threat so there is less direct hate, as women aren't respected as much as men or put on the same pedestal.

DevilWithaHalo:

Angie7F:
I think even within the same gender there are roles that come associated with the body build etc.

The first person to suggest that taller people have an obligation to help shorter people lift things off high shelves get's popped in the mouth. We are people with feelings! We are not just pieces of meat for you to use when it suits you!

Very much agreed! As another Person of Increased Height, I find the oppression we suffer on a day-to-day basis to be absolutely intolerable. I am routinely expected to grab things from high places, and am forced to endure the constant barrage of "my how you've grown" whenever I see old relatives. We need to end this systematic oppression at once!

squeekenator:

DevilWithaHalo:

Angie7F:
I think even within the same gender there are roles that come associated with the body build etc.

The first person to suggest that taller people have an obligation to help shorter people lift things off high shelves get's popped in the mouth. We are people with feelings! We are not just pieces of meat for you to use when it suits you!

Very much agreed! As another Person of Increased Height, I find the oppression we suffer on a day-to-day basis to be absolutely intolerable. I am routinely expected to grab things from high places, and am forced to endure the constant barrage of "my how you've grown" whenever I see old relatives. We need to end this systematic oppression at once!

My tall brothers and tall sisters, let us suffer the elongated yoke oppression no more!

I just think of womens ability to do what men do without stigma as the 'pissing standing up and beards tax'
they can do whatever they want so long as I can grow a beard/mustache and use a urinal

I've worked in a blue-collar environment for the last decade, and it has been my experience that the least intelligent (also most elderly) of my coworkers are the strongest proponents for gender roles. There is the odd young person from a conservative background with similar feelings, but otherwise that statement tends to hold true.

Gender is entirely a social construct. I refer to people by whatever gender they want me to call them.

I personally identify with "male".

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