People should stop protecting guns

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT
 

Daveman:
Legalise all drugs because you can't get rid of all of them, you'd need to search every home in the country.

That's a pretty bad comparison. Drugs are consumed so if you stop or slow down production they'll go away pretty quickly.

Despite that though, people are still arguing that we should legalize all drugs. There's a massive black market for drugs funding various drug lords, gangs make their money selling drugs, and these people cause most gun deaths.

Imagine the massive black market that would come from gun control.

Sylveria:

M-E-D The Poet:
I'm getting sick of ludicrous arguments I keep hearing about guns
Wether you're pro-guns or anti-guns I wish to put a few facts straight that everyone with a sane mind can understand.

1 Guns aren't "safe" guns are tools intended to harm, there is no other purpose for a gun than to wound or kill.

2 People may kill people but people with guns kill them a whole lot faster.

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own, this does not however mean that Americans shouldn't be able to choose whether or not they're allowed to own guns.

4 The fact that when you ban guns there will still be guns on the street is not an argument to hide yourself behind, however making it more difficult for the average Joe to own a gun and limiting the influx of guns into the open world is a valid argument against it. (quote me on this and I will elaborate on the subject).

5 A shotgun in a secured gunsafe in your home is a defense weapon, semi-automatic/automatic weapons and pistols aren't.

6 A pistol securely fastened on your body is a defense weapon if you're out on the street, a shotgun or semi/automatic weaponry is not.

7 Hunting rifles in woodland areas are a yes, hunting rifles in the suburbs or the city are a No-No.

Any arguments to add, anything you wish to discuss ?
Be polite,calm and respectful about it.

the poster of this thread neither condemns nor accepts guns

Everything you've said is ignorant, misinformed, or factually wrong and despite your disclaimer, you obviously you do condemn guns or you wouldn't have made this thread in the first place.

I won't even dignify the foolishness of what I'm reading with elaborating on how and why what you're saying is nonsense as you clearly haven't bothered to do any research in to the subject at all other than what sensationalist propaganda you've been reading from the anti-gun lobby.

nope I actually believe gun ownership is reasonable to a certain degree.

if my utopian way of thinking about it would be portrayed for the U.S every citizen would have the right to 1 Shotgun kept at home , 2 A hunting rifle in areas where one can actually hunt or otherwise storing the hunting rifle in the hunting area. 3 if proven reliable a handgun to be carried on their person.

A lot of you are very sincerely misreading some of the points I've made, which is sad but can't be helped.

Burst6:

Daveman:
Legalise all drugs because you can't get rid of all of them, you'd need to search every home in the country.

That's a pretty bad comparison. Drugs are consumed so if you stop or slow down production they'll go away pretty quickly.

Despite that though, people are still arguing that we should legalize all drugs. There's a massive black market for drugs funding various drug lords, gangs make their money selling drugs, and these people cause most gun deaths.

Imagine the massive black market that would come from gun control.

Key word there is "imagine". My point is just because something is hard to do is not a reason to not do something, especially when it comes to legislation.

I really like your avatar btw, reminds me of this.

M-E-D The Poet:

5 shotgun has been proven to be the most capable home defense weapon, a shotgun blow would incapacitate an assailant not even necessarily killing him, there would be less room to struggle and the gun by itself is a lot more imposing than a handgun.

This is incorrect. There is a pretty even split among the experts on what the best home defense weapon is. Many believe that shotguns are a poor home defense weapon when compared to a pistol. There are many reasons, but they basically boil down to the fact that a pistol is easier to use in a dozen different ways. They are easier to load in a high stress situation, they hold more rounds, they can be fired from either hand, they are more difficult to take away from you, they are more effective in a hand to hand situation, they are less likely to cause collateral damage, they are easy to place in a convenient location for quick access. The list goes on. There are advantages to every different type of gun, but most experts I have talked to recommend a pistol.

Also, shotguns are much more lethal than a pistol in a home defense situation. I don't know where you got the idea that a shotgun will be less likely to kill, but you are completely wrong. I cannot stress this enough. A shotgun is far, far more lethal than a pistol at that range. On this point you are misinformed. This is actually one of the strongest arguments for using a shotgun in a home defense situation: if you hit you are almost certainly going to kill or completely incapacitate your target (which will then proceed to bleed out in a matter of minutes,) thus eliminating the threat much more effectively.

M-E-D The Poet:

To answer your question, I personally feel assault rifles shouldn't be available to the general public at all, it's my opinion and we can disagree on it but to me like the hunting rifle in NYC idea I see no logical explanation why anyone should be allowed to have one, sure a collectors item is all well and good but why do you need a fully servicable/working gun if you're a collector?

Because it is not a gun if it is not fully serviceable/working no more than a computer is a computer without the CPU. A collector does not usually want something that simply looks like a collection piece.

Because if we're allowing Assault rifles to the general public on these grounds I would argue it's not wrong for anyone to own a rocket launcher either now you either agree that it makes perfect sense that one should own a rocket launcher (Because it's a gun like any other) or you can agree to the fact that a civilian with an assault rifle is a bit odd.

I completely disagree. You are making a slippery slope argument here. It could go even further. Why not tanks? or missiles? Why not let civilians have nukes in their basement?

The answer is obvious. A rocket launcher is far more dangerous than an assault rifle. The destructive capacity of a rocket launcher is much greater than an assault rifle. There is a clear distinction. On the other hand, civilian available assault rifles are no more dangerous than other civilian owned weapons.

I think you misunderstand what an assault rifle is. You are probably thinking of military grade fully automatic weapons. This is not the case. In reality, there is no real difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle, at least not in legally civilian available weapons. They are basically hunting rifles with cosmetic and structural changes. From the point of view of lethality, hunting rifles are just as bad as assault rifles, and shotguns are even worse (at ranges up to around 100 yards depending on the type of round used.) Pistols are not as lethal, but the ability to conceal a pistol makes it much more dangerous than an assault rifle to the general public.

And so again I must ask why single out assault rifles when they are arguably the least dangerous of civilian owned weapons?

M-E-D The Poet:
I'm getting sick of ludicrous arguments I keep hearing about guns
Wether you're pro-guns or anti-guns I wish to put a few facts straight that everyone with a sane mind can understand.

The Constitution aside, the only reason why this is in debate right now is because of the tragic shootings that have occurred. Someone that is sick enough to commit such an act will not be deterred by the small measures that the legislature will take.

We need to take a look at why these shootings are becoming more common, and what we can do to stop them.

Most people calling for a "ban" on "Assault Rifles" don't understand how firearms work. To begin with, there will never be a ban on hunting rifles, and shotguns. That being said, the only difference between a "Assault Rifle" and a simi-auto hunting rifle, is some aesthetics, and the quantity of rounds that they hold. That being said, I am in support of high capacity magazine restrictions. On to the use of shotguns. Someone who has trained a bit with a shotgun can do more damage with a simple pump action shotgun than most can with an evil assault rifle.

Whatever weapon restrictions that congress pass, it won't stop these horrible shootings. If you look at the 1994 weapons ban, the shootings continued to increase even after it was passed. We need to find out why, and stop them completely.

We have a problem when we are just trying to stop the 11th person shot.

M-E-D The Poet:

In your post you assume that when shooting with either a pistol or a shotgun at someone you're shooting to kill (not to incapacitate)

Why is that? and do you then think that such killing intent as you automatically assumed makes it safer for people to have guns over people who solely wish to protect?

If you are shooting at someone and your intent ISN'T to kill them you are too irresponsible to own a firearm. There are several reasons for this (and please note that my usage of "you" here is meant in the general sense):

First, you never let your gun point at anything you don't want destroyed. So if you're pointing a gun at a PERSON that means the situation has escalated to life-or-death (otherwise you're an idiot and shouldn't have a gun).

Second, if you're in a situation that's desperate enough to warrant shooting someone you want to minimize the chance of missing. This means aiming for the largest target, which means the torso. Unfortunately human anatomy means getting shot in that region can easily be fatal.

Third, if you aim for an extremity and you miss the bullet will keep flying--possibly into an innocent bystander. So, again, you don't want to miss.

Fourth, if you decide to be an idiot and aim for an arm or leg anyway you still have a decent chance of killing the person (a shot to the leg could sever the carotid artery, for instance).

Fifth, even if you use non-standard rounds (that is, rounds intended to incapacitate and not kill) you might still end up killing them by chance. Blunt-force trauma is no joke.

So to summaraize: anyone who points a loaded gun (and the gun is always loaded, even if you just emptied it) at another person, without being prepared to kill that person, is a dangerous moron who has no business handling firearms.

if my utopian way of thinking about it would be portrayed for the U.S every citizen would have the right to 1 Shotgun kept at home , 2 A hunting rifle in areas where one can actually hunt or otherwise storing the hunting rifle in the hunting area. 3 if proven reliable a handgun to be carried on their person.

I'd still like to know what the issue is with storing a hunting rifle in a locked safe at home.

ETA:

A lot of you are very sincerely misreading some of the points I've made, which is sad but can't be helped.

It might help if you changed the tone of your OP. Your very second sentence is Poisoning the Well, and it puts everyone who disagrees with you on the defensive. You need to explain your points without insulting the people you're talking to. Otherwise you're guaranteed to be misunderstood, because nobody's going to try overly hard to understand you.

Daveman:
Key word there is "imagine". My point is just because something is hard to do is not a reason to not do something, especially when it comes to legislation.

I really like your avatar btw, reminds me of this.

Actually in politics that is a reason to not do something. Usually something is hard because it's intertwined with a lot of other things, and attempting to fix it can cause a lot of other problems. For example, if guns were eventually banned the economy would greatly suffer because gun manufacturers wouldn't be able to thrive as well leading to large job losses. Military equipment would probably suffer too because the firearm corporations have less funding. Criminals would still have guns because there are a massive amount of guns in circulation in the US that can't be taken away as long as they were bought before the law came. This, along with our massive shared border with mexico, would start a black market and perhaps encourage more crime. Hunters would suffer, and even if they could get a license they would become targets for theft by gun traffickers.

With something so deeply intertwined into american law, georgaphy, and culture you can't just get rid of it. Even if politicians try their hardest, more problems could arise that outweight the good caused by the law.

Also, thanks. I drew the avatar myself after i got my first heavy taunt kill on a sniper. I wanted to draw a minigun but i'm not that good.

Guns are fun. I couldn't care less for the shits that do awful things with them.

The_Healer:
Woooooo lets all get wound up into hysterics by our love of guns!

I mean, seriously, you can't be safe unless you are surrounded by at least 6 firearms.
And a collection of landmines.

And don't talk to me about tasers either.
Those things are dangerous man.

I'll give you a taser and see if you can hold your own against two muggers approaching you while walking to your car at night. Or when a car cuts in front of you with four teens jumping out to do whatever they want and take whatever you have. Enjoy your life knowing that you can do nothing, in the meantime let others who won't consent to being victimized take care of themselves.

jovack22:
Military/law-enforcement-grade weapons/accessories do not need to be accessible by the public.

Read up the definition of "amendment".. there is no reason why it can't be amended again.

Hi there. The AR-15 is a civilian (semi-automatic) variant of the military M16. No one is protecting military-grade hardware; ban-hammers are going after civilian small arms and nuances such as capacity, which is infringement.

Regarding amending the Constitution, that's a great idea! So why has no one tried it? Why pass laws that just violate the shit out of the Supreme Law of the Land? Maybe it's because Washington and individual States couldn't then -- violate the shit out of the Constitution and have to answer to the Republic? Amazing system, it's just ignored to thunderous applause.

M-E-D The Poet:
you've misread the most points in my post completely, But you have a right to an opinion like everyone else.

The EUMERICAH remark was perhaps out of place but people know what it refers to and it is all but meant as a reference, if this post seems to have caused offence to you my apologies.

I responded with honesty, integrity and truth. All you have done is alienate yourself and now misdirecting and insulting someone, among many others, who take the noise (which you originally stated as facts) and righteously smack it down. Why make a thread to whine if you can't debate? You want a reasonable discussion yet you're flagging and saying people "misread" and back-hand them for having an "opinion" after they dismantle your points.

First off: Learn the difference between "fact" and opinion.
Second: The argument against people getting guns illegally is a valid argument to stand behind. You can ban guns and people will still get them illegally. If we take away the right of people to purchase guns in a legal registered manner then all we will do is increase crime and make sure that the law abiding citizens are easier to prey upon. In "EUHMERICA" (jackass) we have the right to own guns because the founding fathers recognized the need to defend your self against a tyrant. Shotguns create a spread which is not very useful at a long distant or a short one unless the target is with-in the spread. A pistol is easier to get to get to in emergency situations. There are already laws against firing hunting rifles in a city. And if you live in the city and hunt, where the hell are you supposed to keep the rifle?

AgedGrunt:

The_Healer:
Woooooo lets all get wound up into hysterics by our love of guns!

I mean, seriously, you can't be safe unless you are surrounded by at least 6 firearms.
And a collection of landmines.

And don't talk to me about tasers either.
Those things are dangerous man.

I'll give you a taser and see if you can hold your own against two muggers approaching you while walking to your car at night. Or when a car cuts in front of you with four teens jumping out to do whatever they want and take whatever you have. Enjoy your life knowing that you can do nothing, in the meantime let others who won't consent to being victimized take care of themselves.

jovack22:
Military/law-enforcement-grade weapons/accessories do not need to be accessible by the public.

Read up the definition of "amendment".. there is no reason why it can't be amended again.

Hi there. The AR-15 is a civilian (semi-automatic) variant of the military M16. No one is protecting military-grade hardware; ban-hammers are going after civilian small arms and nuances such as capacity, which is infringement.

Regarding amending the Constitution, that's a great idea! So why has no one tried it? Why pass laws that just violate the shit out of the Supreme Law of the Land? Maybe it's because Washington and individual States couldn't then -- violate the shit out of the Constitution and have to answer to the Republic? Amazing system, it's just ignored to thunderous applause.

M-E-D The Poet:
you've misread the most points in my post completely, But you have a right to an opinion like everyone else.

The EUMERICAH remark was perhaps out of place but people know what it refers to and it is all but meant as a reference, if this post seems to have caused offence to you my apologies.

I responded with honesty, integrity and truth. All you have done is alienate yourself and now misdirecting and insulting someone, among many others, who take the noise (which you originally stated as facts) and righteously smack it down. Why make a thread to whine if you can't debate? You want a reasonable discussion yet you're flagging and saying people "misread" and back-hand them for having an "opinion" after they dismantle your points.

I'm only actually flagging people who're calling names.

People should stop protecting planets. Because planets are dangerous.

image

Behold its malevolence!

Jupiter. Not a toy, and fully intended to harm.

M-E-D The Poet:

AgedGrunt:
[quote="The_Healer" post="18.398396.16299961"]Woooooo lets all get wound up into hysterics by our love of guns!

I mean, seriously, you can't be safe unless you are surrounded by at least 6 firearms.
And a collection of landmines.

And don't talk to me about tasers either.
Those things are dangerous man.

I'll give you a taser and see if you can hold your own against two muggers approaching you while walking to your car at night. Or when a car cuts in front of you with four teens jumping out to do whatever they want and take whatever you have. Enjoy your life knowing that you can do nothing, in the meantime let others who won't consent to being victimized take care of themselves.

2 Muggers? Sure, I'd give that a go with a taser, followed with my fists.
I do see your point though. If I were a small insecure person then I'd be worried.

4 Teens I'd happily just play "lose all my valuables as quickly as possible" and hope that they go away.
What is wrong with that? I'd rather get my stuff retrieved by the police than:
A. Getting the shit kicked out of me.
B. Killing 4 Teenagers.
C. Giving them impromptu counseling sessions about their messed up lives in an attempt to distract them while I secretly call my army of ninjas.

M-E-D The Poet:

4 The fact that when you ban guns there will still be guns on the street is not an argument to hide yourself behind, however making it more difficult for the average Joe to own a gun and limiting the influx of guns into the open world is a valid argument against it. (quote me on this and I will elaborate on the subject).

the poster of this thread neither condemns nor accepts guns

Guns are illegal in Mexico
In 6 years since they started the major crackdown on drugs, over 50,000.. ready that again FIFTY THOUSAND people have died to gun violence.
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/05/mexicos-drug-war-50-000-dead-in-6-years/100299/

M-E-D The Poet:
I'm getting sick of ludicrous arguments I keep hearing about guns
Wether you're pro-guns or anti-guns I wish to put a few facts straight that everyone with a sane mind can understand.

You have no idea what a "fact" is do you?

1 Guns aren't "safe" guns are tools intended to harm, there is no other purpose for a gun than to wound or kill.

Leaving out all the justifiable reasons to kill, you left out intimidation.
Your gun doesn't necessarily need to even be loaded to protect you from harm.

If someone plans to rob you (or worse) and they see a gun on your hip it doesn't matter if it's real, loaded, or you don't know how to use it, they're going to think twice.

2 People may kill people but people with guns kill them a whole lot faster.

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own, this does not however mean that Americans shouldn't be able to choose whether or not they're allowed to own guns.

Fair enough

4 The fact that when you ban guns there will still be guns on the street is not an argument to hide yourself behind, however making it more difficult for the average Joe to own a gun and limiting the influx of guns into the open world is a valid argument against it. (quote me on this and I will elaborate on the subject).

What you just said is the very definition of an opinion. Saying one argument is valid while another one is not based on nothing at all. I know you said to stay calm but you're not making it easy.
Putting a legal ban on guns would obviously would make it harder to get a hold of a gun (as you said) but not impossible (as you also said)
Think for a second, who would that take the guns away from?
The law abiding citizens would turn their guns in, but the criminals wouldn't.
All that means is that the people who have guns are the ones who are morally compromised enough to break at least one law.
And you're saying that isn't a valid argument against banning guns?

5 A shotgun in a secured gunsafe in your home is a defense weapon, semi-automatic/automatic weapons and pistols aren't.

That one's not a fact, it's also not an opinion, it's just a lie.
How is anything in a safe supposed to protect you? You think someone who is willing to break into your house is going to sit and calmly wait for you to open your gun safe? Assuming you're even at your house or near your safe.
A shotgun has one hell of a kick to it, if you need to react quickly and snap shot with a 12 gauge you're likely to break your wrist.
A hand gun can be aimed quickly and fired repeatedly accurately

6 A pistol securely fastened on your body is a defense weapon if you're out on the street, a shotgun or semi/automatic weaponry is not.

What kind of non semiautomatic pistol are you talking about? I don't think there's anywhere you can buy a flintlock pistol these days.
But you're lack of knowledge about guns aside, use some logic, would you rob someone carrying a shotgun?
You'd probably give them a wide berth. Same goes for someone with automatic assault type weapon. (Although there aren't many places where you can carry those openly)

7 Hunting rifles in woodland areas are a yes, hunting rifles in the suburbs or the city are a No-No.

You're on a roll, There should be a law about the torture of the word "Fact"
While I can admit it's hard to think of a practical use for a rifle in the suburbs. There's nothing practical about needing to protect yourself from armed human beings who intend to do you harm.

Any arguments to add, anything you wish to discuss ?
Be polite,calm and respectful about it.

the poster of this thread neither condemns nor accepts guns

pretty much everything you're arguing operates on the assumption that all criminals are either honorable enough to abide by a gun ban or polite enough to allow you to defend your self. (Gunsafe, please)

I've always though the exact opposite would do more to reduce gun violence. Making gun ownership and carry (and marksmanship training obviously) mandatory for all citizens.
There's a philosophy (I'm really sorry I don't know the name of it, but it's the thing Ninja Theory is based on)
It states that the less there is of something the more powerful it becomes.
Allow me a diversion into an exercise in logic
If there are 5 people in a room and 1 of them has a gun that person is the most powerful
If there are 5 people in a room and all 5 of them have guns none of them are more powerful than the other (Spherical humans in a vacuum obviously, but the point is solid)

Like that school that got shot up, That guy would have had a gun, bought a gun, found a gun regardless of any sort of ban. But if every single adult who worked at that school was packing heat would he have made it through the front gate? probably, but not much farther.
Or the joker shooting at the movie theater.
Or Columbine
Or the massacre before that
Or the next random massacre

Crazy people are going to hurt people and kill people, if the sane ones are able to defend themselves the crazies will hurt less people.

My Capcha is "Public Good" by the way.
It's funny how capcha's are sometimes.

I'm divided over the whole gun control issue, and generally stay out of it. But when it comes to rhetoric and debate, I do have a few pet peeves of mine that I tend to jump on when I see people violate some very basic rules. And here's one of the biggest.

If you're going to end your post calling for rational and polite discussion, and then go on to call out people who call you names, don't include stuff like this in your post:

M-E-D The Poet:
the United states of EUHMERICAH

Seriously, we get enough America hate on this board as it is, and some people (like myself) are getting sick of it. So even if you weren't deliberately trying to insult Americans, putting stuff like this in your OP is just going to piss them off, even if they agree with some of your points.

Ugh, I know this is gonna circle back to the fact that I'm a Texan, but I believe in owning defensive guns. Bottom line, criminals don't obey laws, and disarming the people who have restraint and (semi?) good intentions isn't a solution.

tangoprime:

And regarding cowardice:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
I shouldn't even have to cite this one, but -Benjamin Franklin, Feb. 17, 1775.

Of course, it's neither essential liberty nor TEMPORARY anything, but hey, rattling off a bunch of meaningless quotes is better than formulating an actual argument.

Like Chicago? Or Baltimore? Yeah, those places don't have much gun violence *rolls eyes*

"tend to have." Did you even read what I wrote before you railed against it?

TakerFoxx:

Seriously, we get enough America hate on this board as it is, and some people (like myself) are getting sick of it. So even if you weren't deliberately trying to insult Americans, putting stuff like this in your OP is just going to piss them off, even if they agree with some of your points.

America's gun fetish is one of the largest parts of the problem here. That's like saying you can't bring up racist attitudes when discussing slavery because you're going to piss someone off.

Mossberg Shotty:
Ugh, I know this is gonna circle back to the fact that I'm a Texan, but I believe in owning defensive guns. Bottom line, criminals don't obey laws, and disarming the people who have restraint and (semi?) good intentions isn't a solution.

It has more to do with the paranoid attitude of Americans than the specific state in which you live. Though Texas does have those "chase them to the end of the Earth" laws that allow you to not only defend your home, but gun down anyone who might have been involved with extreme prejudice.

Caution: the prior statement may have included hyperbole. Handle with extreme caution.

Yes, criminals don't obey laws. And?

Zachary Amaranth:

tangoprime:

And regarding cowardice:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
I shouldn't even have to cite this one, but -Benjamin Franklin, Feb. 17, 1775.

Of course, it's neither essential liberty nor TEMPORARY anything, but hey, rattling off a bunch of meaningless quotes is better than formulating an actual argument.

Like Chicago? Or Baltimore? Yeah, those places don't have much gun violence *rolls eyes*

"tend to have." Did you even read what I wrote before you railed against it?

And if you'd have actually read and comprehended the quotes, you'd have a picture of my argument, and the argument of those who are responsible for founding the nation that's given you the liberty you currently enjoy. If the message presented by those who designed our system of liberty is indecipherable to you, then we have nothing else to talk about, as you'll never get it.

As for the essential liberty for temporary safety thing, I included the Himmler quote for an important reason, even with the risk of proving godwin's law. At the time, their government decided, ostensibly for reasons of safety and wellbeing of the citizenry, to disarm their populace, as mentioned in the quote, there is no reason for the private citizen to be armed. Well, we found out a few years later, that YES, there was perhaps a reason for them to be armed, but it was too late. Temporary safety- which is arguable in this case, but without arguing how criminals would have guns anyway- would be giving up arms as a knee jerk reaction, contrary to the intentions of those who founded our nation, and opening up the people of the nation to the future machinations of an oppressive government who no longer serves the people, whether that government be domestic, or influenced by foreign powers.

But if you weren't able to extract that from the quotes I provided, I don't expect you to have really heard anything else I just said. If, on the other hand, some of that actually sunk in, please watch this if you get a chance, it's a rather lengthy speech by a now elderly lady who grew up in Austria, during *that* phase of the 20th century.

I also mentioned those two cities, as I've personally lived there. Though both have very restrictive gun laws, I was able to personally witness muggings, shootings, and carjackings. I now have chosen to live somewhere where local laws afford me to keep the means to at least give myself a chance if me or my family are ever victimized.

I for one am getting tired of bleeding hearts as well as persons who don't think things through, or who don't even live in America suggesting what is best for it's people. If you live in America? Great. Don't worry about what I do, so long as it doesn't harm you and yours. If you don't? Bugger off, and deal with whatever next violent protest is bound to crop up in your country over the fact that welfare programs aren't being honored.

The reason Americans can and should be allowed to own firearms, is due to the fact that it is constitutionally guaranteed. It is to hinder a tyrannical government from boot-to-necking the common man, or a foreign power invading. It is to allow the ability of a man or woman to protect their hearth and home, their loved ones, from the criminals that don't go through the legal regulatory channels to obtain their firearms. Here is an example, for your reading pleasure:

http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/01/10/georgia-woman-who-shot-intruder-hailed-as-model-gun-owner/

Yes. I just went there. A woman shot a man in the face and the neck in order to protect herself, but more importantly, her 9 year old twin daughters, from an intruder. Who knows what would have happened had she not been able to protect herself.

Furthermore, there is the fact that ultimately, I can use my bare hands or a butcher knife to kill someone, easier than a I can get a gun to be able to do as such. Are we going to ban steak knives, baseball bats, and candlesticks as well?

Original Poster? I would say that mayhaps, you ought to think things through a bit more, before subscribing to fallacious statements and opinions. Yes, guns have been highlighted in the news as of late as vehicles of murders. However, I could guarantee you, that for every high profile gun case, there is more than one person who was bludgeoned or stabbed to death. At this moment in history, the UN is attempting to ramrod through a world wide citizen level gun band, leaving guns in the hands of law enforcement and military personnel only.

Not to sound like a conspiracy nut, which I most likely will, but have you ever asked why?

phreakdb:
I for one am getting tired of bleeding hearts as well as persons who don't think things through, or who don't even live in America suggesting what is best for it's people. If you live in America? Great. Don't worry about what I do, so long as it doesn't harm you and yours. If you don't? Bugger off, and deal with whatever next violent protest is bound to crop up in your country over the fact that welfare programs aren't being honored.

The reason Americans can and should be allowed to own firearms, is due to the fact that it is constitutionally guaranteed. It is to hinder a tyrannical government from boot-to-necking the common man, or a foreign power invading. It is to allow the ability of a man or woman to protect their hearth and home, their loved ones, from the criminals that don't go through the legal regulatory channels to obtain their firearms. Here is an example, for your reading pleasure:

http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/01/10/georgia-woman-who-shot-intruder-hailed-as-model-gun-owner/

Yes. I just went there. A woman shot a man in the face and the neck in order to protect herself, but more importantly, her 9 year old twin daughters, from an intruder. Who knows what would have happened had she not been able to protect herself.

Furthermore, there is the fact that ultimately, I can use my bare hands or a butcher knife to kill someone, easier than a I can get a gun to be able to do as such. Are we going to ban steak knives, baseball bats, and candlesticks as well?

Original Poster? I would say that mayhaps, you ought to think things through a bit more, before subscribing to fallacious statements and opinions. Yes, guns have been highlighted in the news as of late as vehicles of murders. However, I could guarantee you, that for every high profile gun case, there is more than one person who was bludgeoned or stabbed to death. At this moment in history, the UN is attempting to ramrod through a world wide citizen level gun band, leaving guns in the hands of law enforcement and military personnel only.

Not to sound like a conspiracy nut, which I most likely will, but have you ever asked why?

I have the above story linked, as well as a recent one from Houston where a 15 year old protected himself and his 12 year old sister from multiple home intruders with an AR15. The problem is, nobody will hear it. There are way too many people here of the "if it saves just one child" mentality to understand, too many people who don't understand the framers' intent, despite the clear intent in their own quotes I've listed above. Too many people who would've also willingly given up the means to defend themselves from a fascist for the illusion of temporary safety. I completely agree with you, but too many people think with their hearts instead of their heads, and by the time they grow up, it might be too late.

Zachary Amaranth:

TakerFoxx:

Seriously, we get enough America hate on this board as it is, and some people (like myself) are getting sick of it. So even if you weren't deliberately trying to insult Americans, putting stuff like this in your OP is just going to piss them off, even if they agree with some of your points.

America's gun fetish is one of the largest parts of the problem here. That's like saying you can't bring up racist attitudes when discussing slavery because you're going to piss someone off.

The issue isn't that he brought up American gun culture, but that he spelled "America" as "EUMERICAH", which is needlessly insulting. To use your analogy, that's like if someone discussing slavery referred to Southerners as inbred hicks. Someone could easily take issue with the "inbred hicks" statement without taking issue with the idea of discussing racial attitudes in a conversation about slavery.

I think I'd agree with the whole "taking away guns" thing if...

1) These arguments stopped coming from upper class yahoos that have never been mugged or threatened with violence outside the elementary school playground.
2) When I see more cops patrolling crime heavy venues and areas as opposed to sitting on the side of the road aiming to meet that ticket quota. Funny thing I've noticed over the years. You walk through a hood, there are zero cops. But while I was working in a richer area by the beach, you'd see a squad car come by every minute and they'd harass the hell out of anyone that looked sketchy.
3) You took away guns from everyone with the exception of any military members fighting war overseas.
4) Speaking of cops, give them nothing more than mace, zip ties and a billy club to walk around with. A single shot, low caliber firearm will have to be unlocked from the interior of the police car electronically by an operator at the station after the police officer radios in, reports the desire to use the firearm and explain why.
5) The government were to purge itself of all corrupt politicians.
6) The human race stopped being so...human.

Then...Wouldn´t guns stop protecting people?

You have to take the good with the bad.

Adam Lester:
I think I'd agree with the whole "taking away guns" thing if...

1) These arguments stopped coming from upper class yahoos that have never been mugged or threatened with violence outside the elementary school playground.
2) When I see more cops patrolling crime heavy venues and areas as opposed to sitting on the side of the road aiming to meet that ticket quota. Funny thing I've noticed over the years. You walk through a hood, there are zero cops. But while I was working in a richer area by the beach, you'd see a squad car come by every minute and they'd harass the hell out of anyone that looked sketchy.
3) You took away guns from everyone with the exception of any military members fighting war overseas.
4) Speaking of cops, give them nothing more than mace, zip ties and a billy club to walk around with. A single shot, low caliber firearm will have to be unlocked from the interior of the police car electronically by an operator at the station after the police officer radios in, reports the desire to use the firearm and explain why.
5) The government were to purge itself of all corrupt politicians.
6) The human race stopped being so...human.

Outstanding post Adam, I see that this was your 2nd post here? Welcome, glad to see someone who makes some sense :)

The_Healer:

2 Muggers? Sure, I'd give that a go with a taser, followed with my fists.
I do see your point though. If I were a small insecure person then I'd be worried.

4 Teens I'd happily just play "lose all my valuables as quickly as possible" and hope that they go away.
What is wrong with that? I'd rather get my stuff retrieved by the police than:
A. Getting the shit kicked out of me.
B. Killing 4 Teenagers.
C. Giving them impromptu counseling sessions about their messed up lives in an attempt to distract them while I secretly call my army of ninjas.

So only small, insecure people have something to worry about when they're attacked? Everyone else, if they're not incapacitated with compliance to criminal behavior, should be just fine. This isn't Hollywood and your fists could very easily be the only thing preventing seventeen stab wounds and suffering in your last minutes of life.

It's also extremely unlikely you will get any of your things back, and that's if you or loved ones you are with are not violated or, you know, assaulted/raped/murdered just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is not about robbery, this is a safety issue and that so few people seem to be rooting for the good guys is mind-blowing.

Why do people defend guns? Here's a better question: Why do people decree everyone should remain defenseless?

The_Healer:

2 Muggers? Sure, I'd give that a go with a taser, followed with my fists.
I do see your point though. If I were a small insecure person then I'd be worried.

You would go at them with your fists. Really.

You could have argued from a perspective of gun safety. Or that the benefits of self defense do not justify the detriment of having a greater number of guns in circulation. You could have argued against this point from any number of reasonable positions. But instead you went with mocking sarcasm, indirect insults, and the single stupidest claim one could make about self defense. You betray your ignorance and your unwillingness to change that ignorance.

If you are not going to take this seriously, please at least have the common decency to not bother people who are actually trying to discuss this important issue. In other words: if you are not going to contribute, get the hell out.

The_Healer:

2 Muggers? Sure, I'd give that a go with a taser, followed with my fists.
I do see your point though. If I were a small insecure person then I'd be worried.

4 Teens I'd happily just play "lose all my valuables as quickly as possible" and hope that they go away.
What is wrong with that? I'd rather get my stuff retrieved by the police than:
A. Getting the shit kicked out of me.
B. Killing 4 Teenagers.
C. Giving them impromptu counseling sessions about their messed up lives in an attempt to distract them while I secretly call my army of ninjas.

I don't mean to jump on this wagon, but I have a few friends all over the place. One of my friend's friends is now braindead even though she complied with the commands. Apparently, the muggers felt powerful and still wanted to fight.

Sometimes, people are just looking for an excuse.

M-E-D The Poet:
I'm getting sick of ludicrous arguments I keep hearing about guns
Wether you're pro-guns or anti-guns I wish to put a few facts straight that everyone with a sane mind can understand.

1 Guns aren't "safe" guns are tools intended to harm, there is no other purpose for a gun than to wound or kill.

2 People may kill people but people with guns kill them a whole lot faster.

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own, this does not however mean that Americans shouldn't be able to choose whether or not they're allowed to own guns.

4 The fact that when you ban guns there will still be guns on the street is not an argument to hide yourself behind, however making it more difficult for the average Joe to own a gun and limiting the influx of guns into the open world is a valid argument against it. (quote me on this and I will elaborate on the subject).

5 A shotgun in a secured gunsafe in your home is a defense weapon, semi-automatic/automatic weapons and pistols aren't.

6 A pistol securely fastened on your body is a defense weapon if you're out on the street, a shotgun or semi/automatic weaponry is not.

7 Hunting rifles in woodland areas are a yes, hunting rifles in the suburbs or the city are a No-No.

Any arguments to add, anything you wish to discuss ?
Be polite,calm and respectful about it.

the poster of this thread neither condemns nor accepts guns

[/quot[quote="Not G. Ivingname" post="18.398396.16293745"]Another one?

Did you really need to bring up your criticisms in a new thread, instead of posting in one of the 1,232,532 other gun threads currently lurking around on this site? You really want to debate about it, why don't you got to the R&P section? Otherwise, this thread is very redundant as compared to many, many other active gun threads.

As for your points...

1. Am I really harming a paper target or clay pigeons if I go out to the range and shoot them? Recreational shooting leads no harm to anybody, as long as you follow basic gun safety and the instruction of range master.

2. Most people who get shot live to tell the tail. 80% of people who are not shot once in instantly fatal places (heart and the head) live to tell the tale. The ones who die, die because they bled out.

3. Appeal to Popular Belief.

4. Or can lead to situation where the "average joes" are disarmed, while all the crooks, who's purchases of firearms are NOT reported to anyone, wouldn't be disarmed. See spike in crime in DC after pistol ban.

5. Why not? If I shoot someone invading my home with an AR-15, a colt .45, or a 12 gauge, why is one self defense and one isn't? While shotguns, in most cases, can be better home defense weapons, but not in all cases. Shotguns are fairly heavy, and have a large amount of kick to them. Older people with health problems may not be able to lift a shotgun up to defend themselves, or the recoil my hurt them. My father just had open heart surgery, and in his present state, the recoil of a shotgun might KILL him. A pistol would not be a problem.

6. I will have to agree, although people who commit crime with shotguns and rifles are used in such a low percentage of crimes I don't see much reason to ban the practice.

7. See #5.

You don't need to defend gun owners. They've got guns for that.

OT: I love guns as much as a teenaged boy who recently started watching Trigun again can. That said, do you really need an AK-47 to hunt a deer? Do you really need an AK-47 to protect your home when a shotgun or pistol can do the exact same thing with less ability to hurt large numbers of people? Do you really need a 120 round drum magazine on a semi-automatic weapon? Do you really need to act like the right to have an object that is designed to kill or maim (that people are trying to take away on the grounds that these things are killing and maiming people) is a sort of moral crusade that's an indication of your personal liberties?

They're asking for an assault weapons ban, not a ban on fucking pistols or hunting shotguns.

M-E-D The Poet:
1 Guns aren't "safe" guns are tools intended to harm, there is no other purpose for a gun than to wound or kill.

2 People may kill people but people with guns kill them a whole lot faster.

True... BUUUT guns are a useful tool as well. My friend is a farmer and he NEEDS his gun to protect his crops and livestock. (Edit: from animals)

No one is saying guns are for anything but killing and/or wounding... just remember it's not JUST for humans.

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own, this does not however mean that Americans shouldn't be able to choose whether or not they're allowed to own guns.

4 The fact that when you ban guns there will still be guns on the street is not an argument to hide yourself behind, however making it more difficult for the average Joe to own a gun and limiting the influx of guns into the open world is a valid argument against it. (quote me on this and I will elaborate on the subject).

5 A shotgun in a secured gunsafe in your home is a defense weapon, semi-automatic/automatic weapons and pistols aren't.

6 A pistol securely fastened on your body is a defense weapon if you're out on the street, a shotgun or semi/automatic weaponry is not.

7 Hunting rifles in woodland areas are a yes, hunting rifles in the suburbs or the city are a No-No.

I don't get it.

Each of these points is essentially a defense of guns, but your title seems to indicate that you think people shouldn't be able to have guns.

Your closing statement is basically that you don't really have an opinion on guns, but you seem to have the general opinion of anyone with half a brain.

You agree that guns are necessary or at least accept that people need them for defense/hunting/farm maintenance, you think that a gun license should be harder to get, and you think that some weapons are just unnecessary for any civilian.

The reason why people PROTECT guns is because there are some really naive people who think banning ALL civilian gun ownership is somehow a solution. It's a pretty ridiculous stance, but that's why a lot of people get overly defensive about guns.

DrOswald:

The_Healer:

2 Muggers? Sure, I'd give that a go with a taser, followed with my fists.
I do see your point though. If I were a small insecure person then I'd be worried.

You would go at them with your fists. Really.

You could have argued from a perspective of gun safety. Or that the benefits of self defense do not justify the detriment of having a greater number of guns in circulation. You could have argued against this point from any number of reasonable positions. But instead you went with mocking sarcasm, indirect insults, and the single stupidest claim one could make about self defense. You betray your ignorance and your unwillingness to change that ignorance.

If you are not going to take this seriously, please at least have the common decency to not bother people who are actually trying to discuss this important issue. In other words: if you are not going to contribute, get the hell out.

Calm the hell down dude. He's adding a bit of levity to a discussion that people are taking far far too seriously. He could be a martial artist or whatever, so some fisticuffs would actually be a legitimate option.

I own a sword, a katana, and it's perfectly legal for me to walk around here with it, so if a mugger tries I can cut off his fucking arm. Are you gonna tell me to get the hell out because I'm using an absurdly out of date weapon?

There is NOTHING wrong with guns in society or in the city, guns are not harmful to anything, they are a tool used in hunting, sport, protection, display, bragging rights, and over all are very fun and cool to own and use.

The subhumans that use them to kill for their own twisted reasons is unfortunate but just because guns have and probably will be used for murder of innocent people doesn't mean they should be banned, ever.

The psychos who use guns could carry out their horrific acts with any number of things, knives, a chair, cars, glass, bow and arrow, atlatl, fists or any innumerable other things that the public has no problem dealing with.

And all of the mentioned thing can be used for most if not all of the things guns are used for.

Guns DO have a place in modern society and there is absolutely no reason why anybody should think differently.

M-E-D The Poet:
I'm getting sick of ludicrous arguments I keep hearing about guns
Wether you're pro-guns or anti-guns I wish to put a few facts straight that everyone with a sane mind can understand.

1 Guns aren't "safe" guns are tools intended to harm, there is no other purpose for a gun than to wound or kill.

2 People may kill people but people with guns kill them a whole lot faster.

3 The general consensus everywhere but the United states of EUHMERICAH is that guns are bad and one should not be able to own, this does not however mean that Americans shouldn't be able to choose whether or not they're allowed to own guns.

4 The fact that when you ban guns there will still be guns on the street is not an argument to hide yourself behind, however making it more difficult for the average Joe to own a gun and limiting the influx of guns into the open world is a valid argument against it. (quote me on this and I will elaborate on the subject).

5 A shotgun in a secured gunsafe in your home is a defense weapon, semi-automatic/automatic weapons and pistols aren't.

6 A pistol securely fastened on your body is a defense weapon if you're out on the street, a shotgun or semi/automatic weaponry is not.

7 Hunting rifles in woodland areas are a yes, hunting rifles in the suburbs or the city are a No-No.

Any arguments to add, anything you wish to discuss ?
Be polite,calm and respectful about it.

the poster of this thread neither condemns nor accepts guns

your point is mute weather its right or wrong as it cant be inforced in the US. We are too large and have too many people for us to actually be able to inforce any real gun ban what so ever, more importantly many states would resist said ban pontentally causeing civil war.(trust me that bad for everyone.) Also before you go out and say well russia, canada, and china can do it and they're bigger or as big as the US, the only one that has more then half of the US population is china and they can basicly do it because their people have no rights.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked