People should stop protecting guns

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wombat_of_war:

other countries seem to simply make do with an amnesty period to turn the things in before enforcing that. it worked here. actually my granddads old gun in the cupboard was turned in then it was made illegal here.

Given the size of the US and the relatively slow speed of news I'd wager that any amnesty period would have ended before news of a ban reached western settlements.

wombat_of_war:
i just cant process civilians being legally able to own automatic weapons including miniguns because of a loophole like that.

While a civilian can own a legal minigun (full auto and everything) this is akin to saying that a Sherman tank can be made street legal to drive to work. While technically true, the logistics and regulations are such that only the incredibly wealthy could pull it off. You will likely never see anyone commit a crime with an automatic rifle that was procured legally. I don't believe a crime has ever been committed with a minigun at all for that matter. And if you look at rifles in general, in the US more people were killed last year with bare hands.

wombat_of_war:

no wonder you guys are having a run on people buying assault rifles at the moment

Assault Rifle: Select-fire rifle of intermediate caliber. The M-16 if you will.

What we're having a run on are so-called "Assault Weapons" which are defined as: "Any of 120 specifically named weapon, and any semi automatic rifle with a detachable magazine with two of the following features:

Folding or Telescoping Stock
Pistol Grip
Bayonet Mount
Flash Suppressor
Grenade Launcher attachment (but only muzzle mounted ones like they used in the 1940s, not the external mounted modern versions like the M203 used by the Armed Services)

There are more restrictions in the definition regarding pistols and shotguns but that's outside the scope of this exchange.

So basically, we're not having a run on Assault Rifles, because they're illegal to own for the most part.

Eclectic Dreck:
People often point to the M4 and other AR derived weapons but what about weapons like the Mini-14? It fires the same round, is also capable of delivering accurate fire out to several hundred meters and yet this weapon is almost never mentioned as a thing that ought be banned.

I think it's the wood furniture and lack of a pistol grip in the basic model. Switch out the standard 20 round mag for a smaller capacity one and add a scope and people unfamiliar with firearms aren't going to be able to tell it from any other hunting rifle.

Those same people will almost certainly be unaware of the massive array of accessories and modkits available for the Mini-14 that can transform it into a matte black polymer space age looking firearm with pistol grip, folding stock (or bullpup if you're fancy), foregrip and all manner of mounted scopes. Not to mention they'd probably shit their pants if they knew how 'easy' it was to convert one to full automatic if you can get your hands on the necessary parts from an AC556 (ignoring the fact that said parts are pretty rare now days).

RhombusHatesYou:

Eclectic Dreck:
People often point to the M4 and other AR derived weapons but what about weapons like the Mini-14? It fires the same round, is also capable of delivering accurate fire out to several hundred meters and yet this weapon is almost never mentioned as a thing that ought be banned.

I think it's the wood furniture and lack of a pistol grip in the basic model. Switch out the standard 20 round mag for a smaller capacity one and add a scope and people unfamiliar with firearms aren't going to be able to tell it from any other hunting rifle.

Those same people will almost certainly be unaware of the massive array of accessories and modkits available for the Mini-14 that can transform it into a matte black polymer space age looking firearm with pistol grip, folding stock (or bullpup if you're fancy), foregrip and all manner of mounted scopes. Not to mention they'd probably shit their pants if they knew how 'easy' it was to convert one to full automatic if you can get your hands on the necessary parts from an AC556 (ignoring the fact that said parts are pretty rare now days).

The non-threatening appearance is what it amounts to it would seem. This sort of thing is often my problem with attempts at gun control - the measures people want often would have virtually [i]no[i] effect on the problem they seek to resolve.

Eclectic Dreck:

jovack22:

Even though none of your facts, conjectures, assertations, etc were backed up by a source (yes it's the internet, but you went at great lengths to try and argue against common sense), I was wondering wondering about this last point.

And now you've been introduced to hyperbole - a common rhetorical device wherein one makes an exaggerated claim to demonstrate a fundamental truth. Please, calculate for me the odds of being killed in a "massacre". I'd expect, you'd find the odds against any particular person being involved stand at somewhere in the neighborhood of a significant portion of a million to one.

Now, calculate the odds of death by, say, cancer.

I don't make a habit of worrying about eventualities that are unlikely when there are plenty of god damn terrifying things far more likely to befall someone I care about.

And my larger point remains the same. If you goal is to reduce the incidence rate of tragedy, there are plenty to choose from that are easier to resolve and would have a more significant impact. Solving the "gun" problem is bogglingly difficult, and staggeringly expensive all to save a relative handful. I have yet to hear any plan for gun control that actually would correct any of the problems we've seen with firearms - and that's because turning a modern firearm into something unsuitable for mass murder is a non-trivial task.

My argument is not predicated upon the notion that this tragedy is good or even acceptable - but that I have never been presented with any sort of plan that would make any progress towards a solution. Thus, failing that, why not expend the effort preventing tragedy we at least have a fair idea of how to combat? Drugs, poverty, disease, ignorance - all of these have a toll far greater than guns achieve and thanks to thousands of years of dealing with such things, we at least have a fair idea of what we need to do to abate if not eliminate.

No you're right. How could I be so short-sighted.

The damn liberal government is trying to take away your right and freedoms and guns so you can't fight back when Obama tries to turn the US into a police-state.
Guns don't hurt people. People hurt people. So lets give them more options to do so.

Why shouldn't fully automatic weapons be available at a whim to anyone who would want to purchase one... I really don't see what's wrong with that. It's perfectly normal to want to just go and blast away a clip to release pent up anger at the world.

I can see the light. I just hope I'm not staring down the barrel when it comes...

Eclectic Dreck:

RhombusHatesYou:

Eclectic Dreck:
People often point to the M4 and other AR derived weapons but what about weapons like the Mini-14? It fires the same round, is also capable of delivering accurate fire out to several hundred meters and yet this weapon is almost never mentioned as a thing that ought be banned.

I think it's the wood furniture and lack of a pistol grip in the basic model. Switch out the standard 20 round mag for a smaller capacity one and add a scope and people unfamiliar with firearms aren't going to be able to tell it from any other hunting rifle.

Those same people will almost certainly be unaware of the massive array of accessories and modkits available for the Mini-14 that can transform it into a matte black polymer space age looking firearm with pistol grip, folding stock (or bullpup if you're fancy), foregrip and all manner of mounted scopes. Not to mention they'd probably shit their pants if they knew how 'easy' it was to convert one to full automatic if you can get your hands on the necessary parts from an AC556 (ignoring the fact that said parts are pretty rare now days).

The non-threatening appearance is what it amounts to it would seem.

There you go then, have all the AR family of weapons that people are so worried about refurnished in a nice maple or mahogany. ;)

This sort of thing is often my problem with attempts at gun control - the measures people want often would have virtually [i]no[i] effect on the problem they seek to resolve.

That was one thing that's always puzzled me about the 'assault weapon' ban... from what I've read and heard it's actually a ban/restriction on adding 'scary' accessaries to firearms but does bugger all about actual firearms. All it seems to do is jerk around people who have the wrong accessories or too many of them on their firearms. What does that achieve? Nothing.

jovack22:

The damn liberal government is trying to take away your right and freedoms and guns so you can't fight back when Obama tries to turn the US into a police-state.

This would be a useful rhetorical maneuver had I ever used anything resembling a slippery slope or tyranny of the state argument. Since I didn't, it's just a red herring that serves no rhetorical purpose.

jovack22:

Guns don't hurt people. People hurt people. So lets give them more options to do so.

People have lots of options to hurt people and they use those options to hurt more people than guns. So long as we are going to play purely with hyperbolic claims, why not also argue legalization of driving on sidewalks.

jovack22:

Why shouldn't fully automatic weapons be available at a whim to anyone who would want to purchase one...

Why should I prevent a person who has the means to acquire one legally and no history or inclination towards violence the ability to own the weapon? There seems to be this strong misconception that "fully automatic" means "more bodies". Odd considering the one recent instance of fully automatic weapons being used in a mass shooting scenario achieved a corpse count of zero while scores were killed with a semi-automatic rifle and dozens with a semi-automatic pistol.

You're essentially arguing that some special aspect makes the automatic weapon fantastically more lethal when, in all reality, high cadence semi-automatic fire is going to be more effective. Couple that with the fact that such weapons are almost never used to commit crimes and I once again ask why target that concept. Much like the extended magazine and the rest, almost nothing is gained by such a restriction.

jovack22:

I really don't see what's wrong with that. It's perfectly normal to want to just go and blast away a clip to release pent up anger at the world.

It is actually perfectly normal - it becomes abnormal when the "world" you're shooting happens to have a person in the line of fire. By contrast, firing a fully automatic weapon at something innocuous like a paper target at a proper rifle range harms no one.

I'll Stop protecting guns when they stop protecting myself and the ones i love.

Eclectic Dreck:
There seems to be this strong misconception that "fully automatic" means "more bodies". Odd considering the one recent instance of fully automatic weapons being used in a mass shooting scenario achieved a corpse count of zero while scores were killed with a semi-automatic rifle and dozens with a semi-automatic pistol.

I think it's movies really. Since filmmakers don't have to actually depict or track each bullet, it's feasible to just have Rambo-stand-in #3 show up, wave a machine gun (without aiming of course, sights are for pussies) and have all the baddies just drop dead of fright. Magical Murder-Wands basically.

jovack22:

Is it normal for someone to have an obsession such as this one: http://fantasticvoyageof2.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/gun-wall2.jpg ?? The primary point of weapons is to do harm to others. From someone who lives outside of the USA, I can speak for not only myself, but almost everyone I have met when discussing this topic that the US's fanaticism for guns is bizarre.

That's a store. It even has a sign asking customers not to lean on the glass.

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