And evolution doesn't say you must do anything, i agree there. However nature dictates that if everyone were gay the species would go extinct and unless you assume that is what nature intended than obviously homosexuality is not a natural (as in "naturally intended") behavior.
Given that the "if everyone were gay" theory is a fallacious argument, your entire point becomes more or less void. Homosexuality is rampant in nature, causes no harm in itself, which makes it very much natural.
As I said a few pages back -
We are pretty much going in circles for like 8 pages now and it's starting to get tedious. People are too caught up in the whole evolution and "the goal of life" (philosophers have been discussing this for millennia, but every person against homosexuality has it all figured out) as if they are some omnipotent and conscious deities that DEMAND *something* from everyone and will punish us when we don't conform. That is silly and childish. The matter of fact is that as natural creatures on this earth, everything we CAN DO is natural by way of associative logic and by your definitions "nature" has ALLOWED humans and animals to be homosexual, it doesn't even matter why. It isn't hard to debunk the "unnatural" routine, but it requires more thought than "buuuuut it doesn't make babiiieeezzz waaaah". Neither does oral sex, but you don't whine about that.
And yes, OBVIOUSLY, if EVERYONE was gay and NEVER ONCE had sex with the opposite sex we would go extinct. But that isn't the case and it never will be, it's a stupid argument.
Yeah, things are getting boring. It's tiring to see people more or less want to be celebrated for being a civilized human being, while holding an opinion that more or less states homosexuality isn't OK or acceptable. It is incredibly tiring and the defensiveness is pretty disgusting. But there clearly is little that can be said to get these posters to listen because they're defiant and feel like they're being attacked and are resistant to change.
I pity them, Abomination, Generals3, Tom. I pity guys like that. I really don't get it. When I get called out on shit from people whose opinion I respect, I always do my part to examine what is being said and do my part not to continue to make the same mistakes. These guys refuse to do so. That's why it's crucial to not allow the youth of today be so indoctrinated by homophobia, racism and other biases that they become completely incapable of any sort of self-awareness of how they're being perceived by those who have matured beyond such irrational concepts. It's not sad, it's just pathetic at this point.
101flyboy: What about the fact no accredited organization believes homosexuality is abnormal? What about the fact something can be not the norm, and yet still be a normal part of society, biology, psychologically normal, physically normal. Homosexuality, is, in fact, normal. It's just not the norm.
There is a problem with that, im probably wrong but "normal" is the word used to describe things that are the "norm". The root comes from there you see?
Now, acceptance OF homosexuality is abnormal, yes. If you would have said that, you would have been correct. Homosexuality in society itself is NOT abnormal but societies throughout history have been anti-gay. So within, what, 10 years, that's going to change, and it's going to be homophobia that is categorically abnormal. Social norms change throughout time. But we're discussing homosexuality in itself.
Im very curious about what you just wrote there and leads me to the following questions:
Are you homosexual/bisexual? If you are (or not) what do you really expect from society in those 10 years, that things are going to change?
To have homophobia abolished? To have a wider variety of men/women to flirt with? To feel like you fit in and not be bullied about it? To marry the love of your life that happens to be the same sex?
Out of nowhere? No. It takes time. But it's time worth taking.
Dont hold your breath. It will probably not happen in your lifetime. See how difficult is for many men to accept women in all kinds of jobs/games as equals? And all that has been going on for what ? 50 years or so. While women are the other 50% of the population, normal, natural, as intelligent as men and the notion of their existence has been there from the beginning of human history. And yet there is no full respect/acceptance of the fact women can do whatever job/activity they want and excel on it.
Both statements are facts, and there is nothing irrelevant about what I said. In fact the second statement, that people can procreate without engaging in sexual activity, is very relevant, due to the first point, which is that people do NOT have sex to procreate.
Sex was "invented" in this world for the sole purpose of procreation. To make sure it happens, nature decided to give its rewards if you do it, which is pleasure. Sex is the mean to an end which is procreation. The points listed in your link are just the chemical triggers that make people have sex. Love is a trigger as well, its so plain to talk about love as a chemical but thats what it is, a trigger to look for a partner to have babies with. Is that really difficult to understand? As much as any homosexual couple want a baby with genetics of both, it wont happen. NEVER. Sorry. There is nothing wrong with adopting a child or looking for a sperm or egg bank and decide wich parent will put the other cell, but thats only posible now, with science. But "people can procreate without engaging in sexual activity" only in vitro, and only now, not 100 years ago.
Please dont hate me for what im about to say: My uncle is an ecologist/biologist , when i asked him if homosexuality was normal. He told me that it is indeed normal, as a sure way of nature to cripple down overpopulation of one species.
Frozengale: Being disgusted by male on male PDA is no different then being disgusted by male on female or female on female PDA if you ask me. Homophobia does not stem from being uncomfortable with the idea of other peoples intimate and sexual lives. I'm uncomfortable with gay people making out just like I'm uncomfortable with straight people making out. I don't like to see other people's intimate relations.
There is a major difference, however, between your perfectly reasonable position (some people have different standards/levels of intimacy they can handle and that's OK) and the inconsistent positions that those such as the OP and a handful of others have in this thread. One is a position based on taste, and the other is based on bias.
I would say homophobia stems from distrust of "The Other". It's hard to relate to homosexuals on some levels because there is a difference in their preferences that is impossible for a straight person to understand. Just like a homosexual can't fully understand a straight persons preferences for the opposite gender. It's this discrepancy that leads to thinking of them as "Other" and strange. While this thought process alone is not wrong it's when we actively try to destroy or belittle someone because of this that we get to Homophobia.
Very good point............but there is one thing that needs to be remembered. Gay people don't make threads on forum after forum detailing how gross they think heterosexuality is. We don't go out of our way to turn our heads when an opposite-sex couple is kissing. In fact a major percentage of us have had sex with the opposite sex as we experimented and grew to find ourselves and realize that it didn't interest us. Lesbian women aren't making threads about how they are tolerant of heterosexuality, don't *really* accept it, but can act like a civilized human being because they're ever so respectful.
There is a clear double standard. It's not simply "the other" that creates homophobia. It's, flat out, a dislike/hatred/fear of what these homophobic conceive of homosexuality. There are too many straight people, as this thread attests to, that don't have these biases and at most slight discomfort given they aren't used to seeing two people of the same-sex kiss. There are too many straight people without these biases to give those with them a free pass.
101flyboy: What about the fact no accredited organization believes homosexuality is abnormal? What about the fact something can be not the norm, and yet still be a normal part of society, biology, psychologically normal, physically normal. Homosexuality, is, in fact, normal. It's just not the norm.
There is a problem with that, im probably wrong but "normal" is the word used to describe things that are the "norm". The root comes from there you see?
Normality indicates something that conforms to the "normal" standards, the average standards. Something that is usual, typical, consistent, expected.
Homosexuality, while not being the norm, is a normal part of every single society on Earth and has been throughout history. It's a consistent part of every single culture. That makes it normal. Similar to blue eyes, similar to left-handedness. Normal yet not the norm.
Im very curious about what you just wrote there and leads me to the following questions:
Are you homosexual/bisexual? If you are (or not) what do you really expect from society in those 10 years, that things are going to change?
To have homophobia abolished? To have a wider variety of men/women to flirt with? To feel like you fit in and not be bullied about it? To marry the love of your life that happens to be the same sex?
1. Yes.
2. Things are already changing. And that change will continue, slowly, but surely, towards greater acceptance.
3. Homophobia will never be fully abolished, no bias will ever be fully deleted from humanity. Human beings are too flawed.
4. I already have a wide range of people I flirt with. That's not an issue for me. My orientation isn't solely about who I want to fuck and you can't force a straight person to have sex with you.
5. I fit in where I want to be, but yes, it would be nice for LGBTQ persons to be out, open, independent and comfortable without any sort of wide-reaching fear or stigma. That is the ultimate goal in this quest.
6. Yes, marriage equality is crucial, from a legal and social POV. But I don't like the concept of marriage personally.
Dont hold your breath. It will probably not happen in your lifetime. See how difficult is for many men to accept women in all kinds of jobs/games as equals? And all that has been going on for what ? 50 years or so. While women are the other 50% of the population, normal, natural, as intelligent as men and the notion of their existence has been there from the beginning of human history. And yet there is no full respect/acceptance of the fact women can do whatever job/activity they want and excel on it.
Accepting homosexuality is easier than accepting women as equals because homosexuality in no way harms the person who is against it. There are zero quantifiable reasons to be against it. There are regarding misogyny. I'm not saying these reasons are valid as I think they clearly are not, but they are quantifiable reasons.
Culture change takes a long, long, long time and it will never be perfect. But that doesn't mean the fight becomes useless or that the goals change. Saving a few lives by making society more open for LGBTQ children and teens, bringing happiness to same-sex couples allowed to marry their partner and show affection in public with their spouse, makes the fight completely worth it in the end. It's always going to be important to fight for what's right.
Sex was "invented" in this world for the sole purpose of procreation.
Sex wasn't invented. And again, there are benefits to sexual activity outside of procreation. To say the sole purpose of procreation is simply a completely credulous view. This sex=procreation view is incredibly strict, and it's incredibly wrong. Procreation is the LEADING purpose and benefit to sex but not the only one. And to think evolution revolves around simply procreation displays a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution.
Please dont hate me for what im about to say: My uncle is an ecologist/biologist , when i asked him if homosexuality was normal. He told me that it is indeed normal, as a sure way of nature to cripple down overpopulation of one species.
The gay=reduce overpopulation view isn't offensive to me. Why would it be? It's a theory. That it's a natural occurrence and some think homosexuality becomes more common when overpopulation becomes too high. It's all theoretical. I don't agree with it nor do most experts. Because homosexual persons still a) can procreate and b) seek to procreate. So I consider this theory incorrect, but ultimately, your uncle is right..............homosexuality is a normal, natural occurrence. That's what matters. There are no credible ecologists, biologists, psychologists who have a different view.
Like I said forced. You can however learn that people are people and not monsters stealing souls. Iīm not fond of seeing 2 men kissing, Itīs not something in my interests honestly. I DO know I should not make snide remarks to -and or insult- these people, even though i donīt like what i see. It's not from being dumb and thinking that gayness is a disease that spreads, no. I just don't like to see men kissing eachother. Is that a crime? I think not. If that offends you go right ahead. I don't have to like everything. I won't like everything. It's not going to change, I can't MAKE it so that I don't not like it. that's what I meant. I don't like frigging broccoli, is that something bad too? Do we need special treatment for broccoli?
*Sigh* This sounds way too defensive. Anyway, I don't like to see them kissing. Will I act? no. Will I comment? no. Will they care I don't like it? Probably not. Will they care if I call out? yes. Will i though? no.
I don't really like condoning (not that it's mentioned). I like it or I don't. There are degrees, but condoning sounds even dumber than not liking it. "Oh sure, I give you the right to snog". Is that really something I have to do? Is that helping in any shape or form? I think it would only do damage. They're just people, they can do whatever the flip they. We shouldn't tell them how to live their lives. I make no distinction between a straight or gay man, nor women. nor black or white or whatever. I treat people the same way they treat me. If you're nice, I'll be nice. If you're a d***, I'll return the favour. The fact that the word still exists disgusts me. Homophobic. scared of gays. To loosely quote Morgan Freeman: "You're not afraid, you're just a d***". We've evolved as a species beyond the need for petty racism and stupidity. Everyone who's homophobic, xenophobic, should look at themselves first.
To avoid other mayor stuff, I don't think Homosexuality is wrong. I don't like it, but I don't think it's wrong. It's just an opinion. Like my hate for broccoli, my devotion to cake, my fondness of gaming and my interest in drawing. And my fear for the imminent zombie/robot/vampire/evildoer uprising.
So you don't think homosexuality is wrong. You just think it's not right. Which is more or less what you're saying. You're basically saying it's OK.......... but not really OK, homosexuality, it's not *truly* OK either, but you know, live and let live. It's not morally wrong but it's also not something you accept You tolerate it.
Broccoli is not a human being. Here is the problem. The problem isn't that you tolerate homosexuality. I don't give a damn, if you find homosexuality not right. I don't care because I know you're wrong. It's not an opinion-----you're just wrong. And you're entitled to be wrong. If you think homosexuality isn't really cool, that's your choice.
The problem is that people such as yourself think you deserve some sort of pat on the back for holding a negative view of homosexuality and simply being quiet about it. And deserve a pat on the back for not believing homosexuality is acceptable yet being "tolerant" enough to not impose your view on homosexual persons. That you deserve praise. That your position is somehow entitled respect.
No. It isn't. You do not get a celebration for "tolerating" human beings. You do not get praise for being "tolerant" of something that isn't an issue AT ALL. You get nothing for that. You *do* get criticism for having to talk about how tolerant you are while stating more or less you don't like homosexuality, yet thinking you're somehow radically different than the next guy who doesn't accept it. The only difference is you're silent about your lack of acceptance. You accept the fact people engage in homosexuality, you accept same-sex couples, but you're not accepting and thus you're not entitled to any congrats for SIMPLY BEING A CIVILIZED HUMAN BEING.
That doesn't make you an extraordinarily good person. Congrats. You're civil towards gay people. You don't get a medal. Ultimately, it's the people who are truly accepting that get the praise because they aren't biased.
You say you hate the word "condoning" yet that's more or less what you're doing in this post. You condone homosexuality. You say "whatever, people are going to do it, and that's their choice, I don't care, I hope they're happy." That's not acceptance. You condone it. You're saying that, fine, people do this, and that what they're going to do, but I DON'T LIKE IT. That is tolerating something in a nutshell. You seem to want to believe you're somehow different than the rest and you're not.
It is what it is. You're tolerant of homosexuality. Good for you. It doesn't make you a monster. It doesn't make you a good person or bad person. It's not ideal, and it's not something that is going to be received positively because it isn't a positive stance. You know you don't like or truly embrace homosexuality, truly accept it, and you're seemingly OK with that and don't really care about understanding why you feel that way to become truly accepting, so don't expect too much in the way of high fives for your views. You can like what you like, but human beings aren't an opinion. They're human beings. So stop comparing the love two people of the same-sex express to food.
1. stop about the broccoli it was a joke, j3gus frick. Someone who is sarcastically asking if broccoli should have rights should not be taken seriously when referring to vegetables. 2. your entire response is based off the assumption I give a toss about being praised or high fived about this. I DO NOT. You keep your backpats and highfives, I care not. 3. I'm an idiot, who has trouble translating his thoughts to paper. The not liking homosexuality only refers to the kissing bit. I'm completely indifferent about homosexuality otherwise(IE: I can't care less if someone happens to be gay, it doesn't make them any less of a person) I have gay friends, and care for them just as much as for my non gay friends. If the gay ones have a relationship, I'll be equally happy for them as I would be for a non gay one. I make no difference whatsoever. NONE. I just don't like to see 2 men kissing.( I don't mind women kissing because I think it's hot. sue me, can't care less.) I just don't like to see it. that is all. 4. fuck broccoli. 6. where's 5 5. (found it) I should rephrase the last bit in order to stop whiteknighting. and to reflect what I really wanted to say 7. also, I've seen that you've been busy quoting everyone who isn't much fond of gayness. Stop infringing on people's right to have opinions. seriously.
Like I said forced. You can however learn that people are people and not monsters stealing souls. Iīm not fond of seeing 2 men kissing, Itīs not something in my interests honestly. I DO know I should not make snide remarks to -and or insult- these people, even though i donīt like what i see. It's not from being dumb and thinking that gayness is a disease that spreads, no. I just don't like to see men kissing eachother. Is that a crime? I think not. If that offends you go right ahead. I don't have to like everything. I won't like everything. It's not going to change, I can't MAKE it so that I don't not like it. that's what I meant. I don't like frigging broccoli, is that something bad too? Do we need special treatment for broccoli?
*Sigh* This sounds way too defensive. Anyway, I don't like to see them kissing. Will I act? no. Will I comment? no. Will they care I don't like it? Probably not. Will they care if I call out? yes. Will i though? no.
I don't really like condoning (not that it's mentioned). I like it or I don't. There are degrees, but condoning sounds even dumber than not liking it. "Oh sure, I give you the right to snog". Is that really something I have to do? Is that helping in any shape or form? I think it would only do damage. They're just people, they can do whatever the flip they. We shouldn't tell them how to live their lives. I make no distinction between a straight or gay man, nor women. nor black or white or whatever. I treat people the same way they treat me. If you're nice, I'll be nice. If you're a d***, I'll return the favour. The fact that the word still exists disgusts me. Homophobic. scared of gays. To loosely quote Morgan Freeman: "You're not afraid, you're just a d***". We've evolved as a species beyond the need for petty racism and stupidity. Everyone who's homophobic, xenophobic, should look at themselves first.
To avoid other mayor stuff, I don't think Homosexuality is wrong. I don't like it, but I don't think it's wrong. It's just an opinion. Like my hate for broccoli, my devotion to cake, my fondness of gaming and my interest in drawing. And my fear for the imminent zombie/robot/vampire/evildoer uprising.
So you don't think homosexuality is wrong. You just think it's not right. Which is more or less what you're saying. You're basically saying it's OK.......... but not really OK, homosexuality, it's not *truly* OK either, but you know, live and let live. It's not morally wrong but it's also not something you accept You tolerate it.
Broccoli is not a human being. Here is the problem. The problem isn't that you tolerate homosexuality. I don't give a damn, if you find homosexuality not right. I don't care because I know you're wrong. It's not an opinion-----you're just wrong. And you're entitled to be wrong. If you think homosexuality isn't really cool, that's your choice.
The problem is that people such as yourself think you deserve some sort of pat on the back for holding a negative view of homosexuality and simply being quiet about it. And deserve a pat on the back for not believing homosexuality is acceptable yet being "tolerant" enough to not impose your view on homosexual persons. That you deserve praise. That your position is somehow entitled respect.
No. It isn't. You do not get a celebration for "tolerating" human beings. You do not get praise for being "tolerant" of something that isn't an issue AT ALL. You get nothing for that. You *do* get criticism for having to talk about how tolerant you are while stating more or less you don't like homosexuality, yet thinking you're somehow radically different than the next guy who doesn't accept it. The only difference is you're silent about your lack of acceptance. You accept the fact people engage in homosexuality, you accept same-sex couples, but you're not accepting and thus you're not entitled to any congrats for SIMPLY BEING A CIVILIZED HUMAN BEING.
That doesn't make you an extraordinarily good person. Congrats. You're civil towards gay people. You don't get a medal. Ultimately, it's the people who are truly accepting that get the praise because they aren't biased.
You say you hate the word "condoning" yet that's more or less what you're doing in this post. You condone homosexuality. You say "whatever, people are going to do it, and that's their choice, I don't care, I hope they're happy." That's not acceptance. You condone it. You're saying that, fine, people do this, and that what they're going to do, but I DON'T LIKE IT. That is tolerating something in a nutshell. You seem to want to believe you're somehow different than the rest and you're not.
It is what it is. You're tolerant of homosexuality. Good for you. It doesn't make you a monster. It doesn't make you a good person or bad person. It's not ideal, and it's not something that is going to be received positively because it isn't a positive stance. You know you don't like or truly embrace homosexuality, truly accept it, and you're seemingly OK with that and don't really care about understanding why you feel that way to become truly accepting, so don't expect too much in the way of high fives for your views. You can like what you like, but human beings aren't an opinion. They're human beings. So stop comparing the love two people of the same-sex express to food.
1. stop about the broccoli it was a joke, j3gus frick. Someone who is sarcastically asking if broccoli should have rights should not be taken seriously when referring to vegetables. 2. your entire response is based off the assumption I give a toss about being praised or high fived about this. I DO NOT. You keep your backpats and highfives, I care not. 3. I'm an idiot, who has trouble translating his thoughts to paper. The not liking homosexuality only refers to the kissing bit. I'm completely indifferent about homosexuality otherwise(IE: I can't care less if someone happens to be gay, it doesn't make them any less of a person) I have gay friends, and care for them just as much as for my non gay friends. If the gay ones have a relationship, I'll be equally happy for them as I would be for a non gay one. I make no difference whatsoever. NONE. I just don't like to see 2 men kissing.( I don't mind women kissing because I think it's hot. sue me, can't care less.) I just don't like to see it. that is all. 4. fuck broccoli. 6. where's 5 5. (found it) I should rephrase the last bit in order to stop whiteknighting. and to reflect what I really wanted to say 7. also, I've seen that you've been busy quoting everyone who isn't much fond of gayness. Stop infringing on people's right to have opinions. seriously.
1. It was a joke? You were making a comparison. You said just like some people don't like homosexuality, some people don't like broccoli. But if you meant it as a joke, then I will simply take what you said at #3, that you have a hard time translating thoughts to paper, which I understand, and believe you misinterpreted your thoughts.
2. OK, that's fine. Your post did make it seem that you more or less wanted to be "left alone" for saying you don't like homosexuality. So you don't want high-fives, OK. And yes, as long as you don't impose your view on non-heterosexuals, it's fine. They won't know what you think about them in secret, what you think about their intimacy. I'm simply saying it's not an ideal position.
3. Having gay friends doesn't mean you don't hold a bias against them you don't have for your straight friends. It means you have a bias that displays itself, in this case, when they show intimacy. You still have a bias. That's the point. OK, you have gay male friends. That's not a card to run to as a defense mechanism. It's still conditional acceptance. You don't have to LIKE or even enjoy same-sex kissing between two guys, but there is a difference between not enjoying/not-caring and disliking it. Dislike is a negative bias. It's something you, if you value your gay friends, should work on.
5. The floor is yours to clearly explain the points you are attempting to make.
7. People have a right to their opinion and I have a right to call their opinions out for what they are. It's no different than having a negative bias against black people, women, Christians. And there is little defense of these biases. So why the defense of biases against homosexuality? Why shouldn't homosexuality be actually accepted as OK? Because that's exactly what it is. It's accepting homosexuality as OK that is going to change society. Not this halfway, sort-of-OK acceptance. The only way it's going to ever be fully OK to be gay in our world is by fully accepting homosexuality as OK. And those who stand in the way of that are ultimately people who are holding up progress or not progressing themselves.
"I have gay friends, I love gay people. I just can't stand/dislike/find disgusting the intimacy they show with their partners."
If a friend said this to me, I would most likely be heartbroken. That would be a huge punch to the gut. It would read, to me: Your love towards the same-sex is inherently disgusting. I couldn't really be friends with someone who only conditionally accepts me. I definitely know I couldn't feel totally comfortable with letting my hair down with them, as they in their minds process how disgusted they are in what they're seeing. As other gay, lesbian and bisexual posters have said here, I would NOT BE COMFORTABLE around people who have this "I'm tolerant" view of homosexuality. I need acceptance. I deserve acceptance. Unconditional acceptance. I'm not something to be tolerated and nor is my love life.
No-one should feel OK with themselves to be biased in secret. In some ways it shows less integrity than simply admitting you're biased and being openly biased. At least those people aren't faking it.
My friends and I kiss each other when we greet, my straight male friends. We talk about each other's love lives. There are no walls. There are no secrets. It's true love and acceptance. People who hold negative bias against homosexuality will ever experience such a feeling with anyone gay. They will never be able to be truly close with a gay man. Bisexual, pansexual man. Or if you're bias extends to women, bisexual and lesbian women.
That's the sad thing. You're depriving yourself. All because of an irrational bias you refuse to attempt to grow out of.
7. also, I've seen that you've been busy quoting everyone who isn't much fond of gayness. Stop infringing on people's right to have opinions. seriously.
So you're seriously trying to tell him that having an opinion is infringing on other people's right to have one? Lol...
7. also, I've seen that you've been busy quoting everyone who isn't much fond of gayness. Stop infringing on people's right to have opinions. seriously.
So you're seriously trying to tell him that having an opinion is infringing on other people's right to have one? Lol...
having an opinion is fine. actively trying to get everyone to accept it as the one true opinion is annoying and obnoxious. This is a thread about homosexuality, not religion. Homosexuality shoves something entirely different down your troat than bad information. Don't quote me on the last bit though, I know the jokes are bad. if even Jokes.
7. also, I've seen that you've been busy quoting everyone who isn't much fond of gayness. Stop infringing on people's right to have opinions. seriously.
So you're seriously trying to tell him that having an opinion is infringing on other people's right to have one? Lol...
having an opinion is fine. actively trying to get everyone to accept it as the one true opinion is annoying and obnoxious. This is a thread about homosexuality, not religion. Homosexuality shoves something entirely different down your troat than bad information. Don't quote me on the last bit though, I know the jokes are bad. if even Jokes.
I find homophobic opinions annoying and obnoxious in and of themselves. Why then should I care any more that someone is criticizing those and others find it annoying and obnoxious when I have to put up with the opinions I find annoying and obnoxious?
101flyboy: 1. It was a joke? You were making a comparison. You said just like some people don't like homosexuality, some people don't like broccoli. But if you meant it as a joke, then I will simply take what you said at #3, that you have a hard time translating thoughts to paper, which I understand, and believe you misinterpreted your thoughts.
2. OK, that's fine. Your post did make it seem that you more or less wanted to be "left alone" for saying you don't like homosexuality. So you don't want high-fives, OK. And yes, as long as you don't impose your view on non-heterosexuals, it's fine. They won't know what you think about them in secret, what you think about their intimacy. I'm simply saying it's not an ideal position.
3. Having gay friends doesn't mean you don't hold a bias against them you don't have for your straight friends. It means you have a bias that displays itself, in this case, when they show intimacy. You still have a bias. That's the point. OK, you have gay male friends. That's not a card to run to as a defense mechanism. It's still conditional acceptance. You don't have to LIKE or even enjoy same-sex kissing between two guys, but there is a difference between not enjoying/not-caring and disliking it. Dislike is a negative bias. It's something you, if you value your gay friends, should work on.
5. The floor is yours to clearly explain the points you are attempting to make.
7. People have a right to their opinion and I have a right to call their opinions out for what they are. It's no different than having a negative bias against black people, women, Christians. And there is little defense of these biases. So why the defense of biases against homosexuality? Why shouldn't homosexuality be actually accepted as OK? Because that's exactly what it is. It's accepting homosexuality as OK that is going to change society. Not this halfway, sort-of-OK acceptance. The only way it's going to ever be fully OK to be gay in our world is by fully accepting homosexuality as OK. And those who stand in the way of that are ultimately people who are holding up progress or not progressing themselves.
5 and six were also jokes btw. I tend to do that, I hate writing posts without incorporating some form of bad humour. I did say I accept homosexually just as much as I do non gay people, I just don't like to see men kissing. That's not a bias, that's something I don't like. It's not played on the person, it's played on the whole. Bias is more like "only this is the right thing, everything else is bad/wrong". I don't have that. I just don't like to see men kissing. see the opening line of my first post. can't force someone to like something. I don't hold it against them, I'll never tell them, but I'm fairly certain i'll never like it. I can't really tell myself to stop doing that. i can try, but it'll do no good.
So you're seriously trying to tell him that having an opinion is infringing on other people's right to have one? Lol...
having an opinion is fine. actively trying to get everyone to accept it as the one true opinion is annoying and obnoxious. This is a thread about homosexuality, not religion. Homosexuality shoves something entirely different down your troat than bad information. Don't quote me on the last bit though, I know the jokes are bad. if even Jokes.
I find homophobic opinions annoying and obnoxious in and of themselves. Why then should I care any more that someone is criticizing those and others find it annoying and obnoxious when I have to put up with the opinions I find annoying and obnoxious?
DING DING DING! These people actually think they should be respected for holding homophobic views, no matter how passive? Are you kidding me? The gall. That's what offends me. The gall these people have. And we all know they don't have the same gall when they're with their gay friends they love so much.
So you're seriously trying to tell him that having an opinion is infringing on other people's right to have one? Lol...
having an opinion is fine. actively trying to get everyone to accept it as the one true opinion is annoying and obnoxious. This is a thread about homosexuality, not religion. Homosexuality shoves something entirely different down your troat than bad information. Don't quote me on the last bit though, I know the jokes are bad. if even Jokes.
I find homophobic opinions annoying and obnoxious in and of themselves. Why then should I care any more that someone is criticizing those and others find it annoying and obnoxious when I have to put up with the opinions I find annoying and obnoxious?
You can't tell everyone they're wrong, it's just rude, even if They Are wrong. Why is this such a bloody touchy subject. Those people are just gay, is all. that's about it. also, that guy is pretty much capable of telling me I'm wrong himself. which he did. please stop trying to make my wrong right, I honestly doubt it'll end very well. I might start throwing things at you.
monkey_man: having an opinion is fine. actively trying to get everyone to accept it as the one true opinion is annoying and obnoxious. This is a thread about homosexuality, not religion. Homosexuality shoves something entirely different down your troat than bad information. Don't quote me on the last bit though, I know the jokes are bad. if even Jokes.
I find homophobic opinions annoying and obnoxious in and of themselves. Why then should I care any more that someone is criticizing those and others find it annoying and obnoxious when I have to put up with the opinions I find annoying and obnoxious?
You can't tell everyone they're wrong, it's just rude, even if They Are wrong. Why is this such a bloody touchy subject. Those people are just gay, is all. that's about it. also, that guy is pretty much capable of telling me I'm wrong himself. which he did. please stop trying to make my wrong right, I honestly doubt it'll end very well. I might start throwing things at you.
It isn't rude to tell people who are being homophobic they're wrong. If they take offense, well too bad. I certainly believe in things such as homophobia being criticized much more than I believe in catering to the feelings of people who want to be homophobic. I honestly have to wonder at how much people try to cater to the feelings of people who are homophobic and other such things, but don't go around telling those people to shut up when people have a more legitimate reason to take offense at what they say.
I find homophobic opinions annoying and obnoxious in and of themselves. Why then should I care any more that someone is criticizing those and others find it annoying and obnoxious when I have to put up with the opinions I find annoying and obnoxious?
You can't tell everyone they're wrong, it's just rude, even if They Are wrong. Why is this such a bloody touchy subject. Those people are just gay, is all. that's about it. also, that guy is pretty much capable of telling me I'm wrong himself. which he did. please stop trying to make my wrong right, I honestly doubt it'll end very well. I might start throwing things at you.
It isn't rude to tell people who are being homophobic they're wrong. If they take offense, well too bad. I certainly believe in things such as homophobia being criticized much more than I believe in catering to the feelings of people who want to be homophobic. I honestly have to wonder at how much people try to cater to the feelings of people who are homophobic and other such things, but don't go around telling those people to shut up when people have a more legitimate reason to take offense at what they say.
Do you need to cater to their feelings though? Does the Gay community actually care about a site where these threads pop up every so much time to follow the same patterns? I doubt it. And by that statement I say, that's all. You've given me lots of stuff to consider, mostly about how to not contruct arguments. Fare thee well.
Homophobia *is* wrong. Can't stand the heat. Get out of the kitchen. People shouldn't be blamed for their indoctrinated biases as they often cannot help becoming indoctrinated. But once your bias is exposed for what it is, it's up to you to fix that. If you choose not to, if you're defiant in not attempting to change, if you're openly homophobic, then you're going to be criticized, and if you don't like, grab a tissue and dry the tears, because you ain't gonna be pitied.
You can't tell everyone they're wrong, it's just rude, even if They Are wrong. Why is this such a bloody touchy subject. Those people are just gay, is all. that's about it. also, that guy is pretty much capable of telling me I'm wrong himself. which he did. please stop trying to make my wrong right, I honestly doubt it'll end very well. I might start throwing things at you.
It isn't rude to tell people who are being homophobic they're wrong. If they take offense, well too bad. I certainly believe in things such as homophobia being criticized much more than I believe in catering to the feelings of people who want to be homophobic. I honestly have to wonder at how much people try to cater to the feelings of people who are homophobic and other such things, but don't go around telling those people to shut up when people have a more legitimate reason to take offense at what they say.
Do you need to cater to their feelings though? Does the Gay community actually care about a site where these threads pop up every so much time to follow the same patterns? I doubt it. And by that statement I say, that's all. You've given me lots of stuff to consider, mostly about how to not contruct arguments. Fare thee well.
You're the one who is asking people not to keep criticizing people being homophobic. In other words, catering to those who are being homophobic.
You can't tell everyone they're wrong, it's just rude, even if They Are wrong. Why is this such a bloody touchy subject. Those people are just gay, is all. that's about it. also, that guy is pretty much capable of telling me I'm wrong himself. which he did. please stop trying to make my wrong right, I honestly doubt it'll end very well. I might start throwing things at you.
It isn't rude to tell people who are being homophobic they're wrong. If they take offense, well too bad. I certainly believe in things such as homophobia being criticized much more than I believe in catering to the feelings of people who want to be homophobic. I honestly have to wonder at how much people try to cater to the feelings of people who are homophobic and other such things, but don't go around telling those people to shut up when people have a more legitimate reason to take offense at what they say.
Do you need to cater to their feelings though? Does the Gay community actually care about a site where these threads pop up every so much time to follow the same patterns?
Yes, the gay community cares about homophobia. And the gay community hates homophobia and excuses for homophobia. Thanks for asking.
101flyboy: Accepting homosexuality is easier than accepting women as equals because homosexuality in no way harms the person who is against it. There are zero quantifiable reasons to be against it. There are regarding misogyny. I'm not saying these reasons are valid as I think they clearly are not, but they are quantifiable reasons.
WHOA what? Please elaborate that for me, if you got time. I don't get how women rights harm another person and dont fall in the same homosexual category rights. Which is acceptance of the human kind as all. To me sounds horribly misogynistic. Even if you said it was wrong. Thats why im asking you what you meant by that.
Culture change takes a long, long, long time and it will never be perfect. But that doesn't mean the fight becomes useless or that the goals change. Saving a few lives by making society more open for LGBTQ children and teens, bringing happiness to same-sex couples allowed to marry their partner and show affection in public with their spouse, makes the fight completely worth it in the end. It's always going to be important to fight for what's right.
I think the "show affection in public" its already here, as well as gay marriage in many states and countries, or is it not why the OP started the thread? If heterosexuals are asked to tolerate it and they do, one way or another, isn't the fight already over? Also, what "its right" depends awful lot of the pov. Like what its right for a spider to kill a fly to keep existing, its not right for the fly. And for the fly to eliminate the spider existence is the right thing to do.
I personally think, that what you will get is a person, like the OP to be the generality of the ppl, from here onto 10 years. Because you cant change people and their tastes, as you cant change your own. Its not their fault to dislike public affection btwn gay ppl. You don't know their experiences in life, as well we don't know your own. So please do not encase them as homophobic while they are doing their best to adapt their minds to your way of living. You see, respect and tolerance comes back and forth, if u cant respect that someone simply dislikes your way of being but lets you do whatever you wish. You are the same as the bigots that actively want you to stop to be WHO YOU ARE.
Here is an example: I have a huge fear of a plane crashing down while im in it. Its not fear to fly, nor to airplanes per-se. But the fear something might happen and if it does i have a 0.1% of surviving. I have had that fear since i was 8, im 26 now. And you know to how many planes i have traveled in? Hehehe a lot, i have lost count, probably 2 or 3 times a year i have to fly somewhere. And im always terrified that it will crash, EVERY SINGLE TIME. It get reduced a bit, just a bit with the times i fly, but its still there, i still fear it. But i fly around the world.
The same is with homophobes or ppl like the op. They can't and won't get past it, because u simply can't but they will tolerate it, while it's happening.
Sex wasn't invented. And again, there are benefits to sexual activity outside of procreation. To say the sole purpose of procreation is simply a completely credulous view. This sex=procreation view is incredibly strict, and it's incredibly wrong. Procreation is the LEADING purpose and benefit to sex but not the only one. And to think evolution revolves around simply procreation displays a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution.
I used "invented" for the lack of a better word. Thats why i quoted it. " fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution." <<---about that. So enlight me how else evolution works. If not by procreation and selection of the better genetics, by the triggers of chemicals called love, attraction, smell, etc etc. That lead to sex and make a better spawn of both, evolving.
a) can procreate and b) seek to procreate.
Yes the problem there is: they can procreate and seek to procreate IN THEORY, but can't with the desired partner unless your human, you have money, and as someone quoted me up there, the technology makes it possible.
101flyboy: How old are you? You don't have to tell me your exact age but you seem young to me. Like you're finding yourself. You also are clearly an open-minded guy. You'll get over your discomfort, I'm sure. You still have to grow and understand and embrace yourself before you can completely understand and embrace what you find uncomfortable right now. It's alright. You're honest about your feelings all-around and that's the first step.
Haha I'm 26. I'm pretty well found. I just completely disregard all my mental filters on The Escapist (seems a good place to escape from having to be polite or keeping up appearances). It throws people off when you're ridiculously honest. ;)
But yea, it is what it is. Guys interacting sexually or especially intimately just flips the switches that weird me out, and not in the just "uncomfortable around something unfamiliar" way. Sounds mean, but it's more in the instinctive sort of way that seeing a roach land on a friend's hand would cause.
I just tend to be super-rational and ponder the hell out of everything, but I can't figure out how the hell the obvious contradiction could possibly make logical sense. It annoys me when I can't make sense of things, but I've learned that I'm just a never-ending mess of contradicting facts in general, so I just kinda let this stuff go to be what it is. *shrug*
And evolution doesn't say you must do anything, i agree there. However nature dictates that if everyone were gay the species would go extinct and unless you assume that is what nature intended than obviously homosexuality is not a natural (as in "naturally intended") behavior.
Given that the "if everyone were gay" theory is a fallacious argument, your entire point becomes more or less void. Homosexuality is rampant in nature, causes no harm in itself, which makes it very much natural.
As I said a few pages back -
We are pretty much going in circles for like 8 pages now and it's starting to get tedious. People are too caught up in the whole evolution and "the goal of life" (philosophers have been discussing this for millennia, but every person against homosexuality has it all figured out) as if they are some omnipotent and conscious deities that DEMAND *something* from everyone and will punish us when we don't conform. That is silly and childish. The matter of fact is that as natural creatures on this earth, everything we CAN DO is natural by way of associative logic and by your definitions "nature" has ALLOWED humans and animals to be homosexual, it doesn't even matter why. It isn't hard to debunk the "unnatural" routine, but it requires more thought than "buuuuut it doesn't make babiiieeezzz waaaah". Neither does oral sex, but you don't whine about that.
And yes, OBVIOUSLY, if EVERYONE was gay and NEVER ONCE had sex with the opposite sex we would go extinct. But that isn't the case and it never will be, it's a stupid argument.
I don't get why you get so upset. First of all there is a big difference between ingrained instincts/subconscious processes and conscious processes. Instincts and many subconscious processes are genetically programmed into us, such as sexual orientation (unless you want to argue it's a choice). Conscious processes however are both affected by subconscious processes and nurture. Conscious processes are rarely "natural".
But you see here is the difference: oral sex is an unnatural action. Homosexuality is an unnatural "trait". However as you may notice, since i hold no grudge on oral sex there is no reason to believe that i hold a grudge against homosexuality "because it's unnatural". You just assume that because I think A i also think B. I have actually previously stated that that was not true.
And whether it is the case now is irrelevant to the argument. The argument is there to determine if it could be naturally intended to be "programmed" with a homosexual nature. Do mind that genes undergo many mutations and what not, which can easily make the programming deviate from its initial intentions. And that also goes for other animals.
The only argument that you can now hold against me is that there is no evidence that genes affect sexual orientation. To which i preventively say: due to a lack of studies on the domain one can only speculate on the source however since sexuality seems to be very subconscious it seems plausible it is linked to our genetic coding.
It isn't rude to tell people who are being homophobic they're wrong. If they take offense, well too bad. I certainly believe in things such as homophobia being criticized much more than I believe in catering to the feelings of people who want to be homophobic. I honestly have to wonder at how much people try to cater to the feelings of people who are homophobic and other such things, but don't go around telling those people to shut up when people have a more legitimate reason to take offense at what they say.
Do you need to cater to their feelings though? Does the Gay community actually care about a site where these threads pop up every so much time to follow the same patterns?
Yes, the gay community cares about homophobia. And the gay community hates homophobia and excuses for homophobia. Thanks for asking.
On this site though? How many gay people would you find on this relatively small site. I appreciate what you're trying to do, certainly. I'm not dismissing your input, I'm just saying that you'd be better of fighting for gay rights elsewhere, instead of on this site where a similar thread is always active, and it's always the same pattern. party a asks about gayrights, party b defends, party c rejects, party b and c grapple, party d is done with this, gets pulled in etc. It's been going on for years, to my knowledge. also, we should not be derailing any further, as the thread is not "is it worth it to argue over defending gay rights", but rather what the definition is. Which has been answered by loads of people, including me, by stating that it's not that important what's thought, but rather on what's being acted on. you can think many things, but if you don't act ('tell others of' 'let seep through'influence'etc. also counts under that) on any of it, it's not really anything to others. So there OP, you have the answer. Now let's stop advocating about the rights of gay-people, because basically anyone with at least 3 braincells will agree that gays have the same rights as nongays, and that just because they're gay doesn't make them lesser, evil, stupid, weird, or some other negative adjective. And that's pretty much all I'll have to say and read about this entire thread.
101flyboy: Accepting homosexuality is easier than accepting women as equals because homosexuality in no way harms the person who is against it. There are zero quantifiable reasons to be against it. There are regarding misogyny. I'm not saying these reasons are valid as I think they clearly are not, but they are quantifiable reasons.
WHOA what? Please elaborate that for me, if you got time. I don't get how women rights harm another person and dont fall in the same homosexual category rights. Which is acceptance of the human kind as all. To me sounds horribly misogynistic.
It *is* horribly misogynistic. That's the point. Such a mentality is irrational completely. But there are reasons that these misogynists have for their bigotry that extend beyond a base instinctual/internalized reaction. There are NO such reasons homophobes have. Misogynists can rationalize their bigotry hence misogyny is still a horrible issue, tragically. Homophobia cannot be rationalized whatsoever. Men view "feminism" as a threat onto them (I put feminism in quotes b/c what these misogynists consider feminism is clearly out of balance and negative). Homosexuality has absolutely zero affect, neither perceived nor real, on heterosexuals. So it's ultimately easier for a homophobe to accept homosexuality if they're straight than a straight man who is misogynistic.
I think the "show affection in public" its already here, as well as gay marriage in many states and countries, or is it not why the OP started the thread? [/quote]Marriage equality is legal in 9 states out of 50. And in zero states do same-sex couples have equal benefits to opposite-sex couples.
The majority of homosexual persons are closeted to one degree or another due to homophobia. Hate crimes against LGBTQ people happen at double the rate of any other group. Most LGBTQ people do not show affection towards their partners if they are of the same-sex, as a result of this.
If heterosexuals are asked to tolerate it and they do, one way or another, isn't the fight already over?
I don't know who is asking for tolerance. No-one seeks to simply be tolerated. I seek full legal and social equality, we see full legal and social equality. Not tolerance. I'm not a disease. And clearly, with the continued institutionalized discrimination non-heterosexuals continue to deal with globally, there is not wide-spread tolerance of homosexuality, let alone acceptance.
Also, what "its right" depends awful lot of the pov. Like what its right for a spider to kill a fly to keep existing, its not right for the fly. And for the fly to eliminate the spider existence is the right thing to do.
Insects aren't human beings.
I personally think, that what you will get is a person, like the OP to be the generality of the ppl, from here onto 10 years. Because you cant change people and their tastes, as you cant change your own.
Thousands of people have gone from homophobic to gay positive through the years. Homophobia isn't a "taste". It's an irrational bias. It's a socially constructed bias, and it *can* be changed, as several posters in this very thread attest.
Its not their fault to dislike public affection btwn gay ppl. You don't know their experiences in life, as well we don't know your own. So please do not encase them as homophobic while they are doing their best to adapt their minds to your way of living.
No, the fact they are homophobic in itself is not their fault. People have been indoctrinated into homophobia and it's completely understandable many would have damage and scars. The fact people are making excuses for why they continue to be homophobic deserves condemnation. If you choose to do wrong when you know you are doing wrong, you will be called out as wrong. It's not hard to figure out.
I'm not a disease. We're talking about two men or two women kissing and showing basic affection. We are not discussing people trying to "adapt" to something like pedophilia or gun violence.
You see, respect and tolerance comes back and forth, if u cant respect that someone simply dislikes your way of being but lets you do whatever you wish. You are the same as the bigots that actively want you to stop to be WHO YOU ARE.
Don't ever compare homosexuality and homophobia again.
Here is an example: I have a huge fear of a plane crashing down while im in it. Its not fear to fly, nor to airplanes per-se. But the fear something might happen and if it does i have a 0.1% of surviving. I have had that fear since i was 8, im 26 now. And you know to how many planes i have traveled in? Hehehe a lot, i have lost count, probably 2 or 3 times a year i have to fly somewhere. And im always terrified that it will crash, EVERY SINGLE TIME. It get reduced a bit, just a bit with the times i fly, but its still there, i still fear it. But i fly around the world.
The same is with homophobes or ppl like the op. They can't and won't get past it, because u simply can't but they will tolerate it, while it's happening.
Having fear of crashing in a plane while you're inside is a fear that can be rationalized, and isn't completely irrational and baseless. Homophobia is completely irrational and baseless. It's also not a crippling phobia like fear of flying or heights. It's not something that causes you to immediately panic and shake and want to get away from the situation at once. It's not a phobia like arachnophobia. It's not a disorder. You want to pity homophobes and I'm not going to go along with it.
I used "invented" for the lack of a better word. Thats why i quoted it. " fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution." <<---about that. So enlight me how else evolution works. If not by procreation and selection of the better genetics, by the triggers of chemicals called love, attraction, smell, etc etc. That lead to sex and make a better spawn of both, evolving.
Evolution works based on the sum of all parts, of all things, working together to create the best possible, most healthy society. Natural society, human society. Things are judged based on their overall value to the entire evolutionary process. That's why thinking sex=procreation is wrong because there are OTHER benefits to sex that give benefit to the overall value of society. That's why it's wrong to classify homosexuality as unnatural. There are benefits to homosexuality that don't include procreation which give it positive value to the entire evolutionary cycle, and natural world.
Yes the problem there is: they can procreate and seek to procreate IN THEORY, but can't with the desired partner unless your human, you have money, and as someone quoted me up there, the technology makes it possible.
101flyboy: How old are you? You don't have to tell me your exact age but you seem young to me. Like you're finding yourself. You also are clearly an open-minded guy. You'll get over your discomfort, I'm sure. You still have to grow and understand and embrace yourself before you can completely understand and embrace what you find uncomfortable right now. It's alright. You're honest about your feelings all-around and that's the first step.
Haha I'm 26. I'm pretty well found. I just completely disregard all my mental filters on The Escapist (seems a good place to escape from having to be polite or keeping up appearances). It throws people off when you're ridiculously honest. ;)
But yea, it is what it is. Guys interacting sexually or especially intimately just flips the switches that weird me out, and not in the just "uncomfortable around something unfamiliar" way. Sounds mean, but it's more in the instinctive sort of way that seeing a roach land on a friend's hand would cause.
I just tend to be super-rational and ponder the hell out of everything, but I can't figure out how the hell the obvious contradiction could possibly make logical sense. It annoys me when I can't make sense of things, but I've learned that I'm just a never-ending mess of contradicting facts in general, so I just kinda let this stuff go to be what it is. *shrug*
I think you need to think a little bit less about it :) You freak out when two guys show affection, and you're also sort of freaking out about freaking out when it comes to two guys showing affection. You know how you operate so I can't tell you specifically what I would do, but when I was younger and a bit spooked when I saw two people of the same-sex kissing, I sort of shook my head around and opened my eyes wide, to clear my head. You have to do something to calm down a bit whenever the urge to freak out comes.
101flyboy: Given that the "if everyone were gay" theory is a fallacious argument, your entire point becomes more or less void. Homosexuality is rampant in nature, causes no harm in itself, which makes it very much natural.
As I said a few pages back -
We are pretty much going in circles for like 8 pages now and it's starting to get tedious. People are too caught up in the whole evolution and "the goal of life" (philosophers have been discussing this for millennia, but every person against homosexuality has it all figured out) as if they are some omnipotent and conscious deities that DEMAND *something* from everyone and will punish us when we don't conform. That is silly and childish. The matter of fact is that as natural creatures on this earth, everything we CAN DO is natural by way of associative logic and by your definitions "nature" has ALLOWED humans and animals to be homosexual, it doesn't even matter why. It isn't hard to debunk the "unnatural" routine, but it requires more thought than "buuuuut it doesn't make babiiieeezzz waaaah". Neither does oral sex, but you don't whine about that.
And yes, OBVIOUSLY, if EVERYONE was gay and NEVER ONCE had sex with the opposite sex we would go extinct. But that isn't the case and it never will be, it's a stupid argument.
I don't get why you get so upset. First of all there is a big difference between ingrained instincts/subconscious processes and conscious processes. Instincts and many subconscious processes are genetically programmed into us, such as sexual orientation (unless you want to argue it's a choice). Conscious processes however are both affected by subconscious processes and nurture. Conscious processes are rarely "natural".
But you see here is the difference: oral sex is an unnatural action. Homosexuality is an unnatural "trait". However as you may notice, since i hold no grudge on oral sex there is no reason to believe that i hold a grudge against homosexuality "because it's unnatural". You just assume that because I think A i also think B. I have actually previously stated that that was not true.
And whether it is the case now is irrelevant to the argument. The argument is there to determine if it could be naturally intended to be "programmed" with a homosexual nature. Do mind that genes undergo many mutations and what not, which can easily make the programming deviate from its initial intentions. And that also goes for other animals.
The only argument that you can now hold against me is that there is no evidence that genes affect sexual orientation. To which i preventively say: due to a lack of studies on the domain one can only speculate on the source however since sexuality seems to be very subconscious it seems plausible it is linked to our genetic coding.
Homosexuality isn't unnatural and that argument is not whatsoever a defense of internalized homophobia.
monkey_man: by stating that it's not that important what's thought, but rather on what's being acted on.
Yeah, no. We've been saying something QUITE DIFFERENT. It is NOT OK to nurture thoughts of homophobia, racism, sexism or any kind of baseless hate because of societal indoctrination. It is NOT OK to be disgusted internally by black people, it is NOT OK to think the woman's place is in the kitchen and it is NOT OK to think homosexuality is a spawn of the devil. Yes, it is WORSE to act upon those feelings, but who is to say some day you won't? "I trust myself" is not enough, because *we* don't trust *you*. Even then some people still act upon those feelings and are harming homosexual people and they wouldn't do that if they didn't think negatively about them.
You have no idea what it is to be constantly *thought* of as a deviant and abnormal abomination unfit for life let alone someone acting on those thoughts. Many homosexual people have committed suicide because of the hate and fear homophobia perpetuates while there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. You may think "oh, but *I* don't think black people should be put down. I think they should have equal rights! They are kinda gross though." then accidentally passing the last bit to your children and THEY then do something horrible. And that wouldn't be the case if you weren't a racist fuck.
That is why any kind of mindless hate and contempt on a MASSIVE scale is bad, I don't even know why I have to spell it out like this.
On this site though? How many gay people would you find on this relatively small site.
A lot. And this site and, quite frankly, much of the negativity against homosexuality on this site, is a microcosm of the gaming world in general and the fact homophobia is a significant issue in the gaming world. So there could be only 2-3 gays around, and these conversations would still have merit. Because homophobia can never go unchallenged if it is expected to be eliminated.
I appreciate what you're trying to do, certainly. I'm not dismissing your input, I'm just saying that you'd be better of fighting for gay rights elsewhere, instead of on this site where a similar thread is always active, and it's always the same pattern. party a asks about gayrights, party b defends, party c rejects, party b and c grapple, party d is done with this, gets pulled in etc. It's been going on for years, to my knowledge.
Running away from homophobia isn't the answer. If only ONE person is enlightened and sees something from these conversations that help allow them be more enlightened and educated, then something positive has been done. The fact that LGBTQ users know they have people, gay, straight and otherwise, there to back them and support them when necessarily, makes these debates worth it.
also, we should not be derailing any further, as the thread is not "is it worth it to argue over defending gay rights", but rather what the definition is. Which has been answered by loads of people, including me, by stating that it's not that important what's thought, but rather on what's being acted on. you can think many things, but if you don't act ('tell others of' 'let seep through'influence'etc. also counts under that) on any of it, it's not really anything to others.
Your definition of homophobia is wrong and that's actually the entire crux of the issue. People denying homophobia exists on this forum, people denying their own internalized homophobia, people making excuses for homophobia. It's all homophobia in the end. Nothing has been derailed, it's simply been expanded and diversified.
Homophobia is an irrational fear of, aversion towards and/or discrimination/hatred against homosexuality/homosexuals. It's a wide range of negative attitudes against homosexuality, because homosexuality is homosexuality.
Hence, having a negative bias against two men kissing *because* they are two men is homophobic. It doesn't mean you as a man are a homophobe, but you do have internalized homophobia, it is a problem, it isn't really OK and the "homosexuality is disgusting" mentality is likely the single most reason why homosexuality is demonized. So it is a BIG deal, and although it's good you tolerate homosexuality and don't impose your views on gay people and as long as you do that, then it's "fine" to believe as you do. It's fine, but it's not OK. And the fact you continue making excuses for your bias make it even worse.
So there OP, you have the answer. Now let's stop advocating about the rights of gay-people, because basically anyone with at least 3 braincells will agree that gays have the same rights as nongays, and that just because they're gay doesn't make them lesser, evil, stupid, weird, or some other negative adjective. And that's pretty much all I'll have to say and read about this entire thread.
Homophobia directly impacts the social and legal rights of LGBTQ citizens. Without homophobia, we would already have full equality. So the issue of gay rights is completely relevant when discussing homophobia. Homophobia is ultimately the buffer that is keeping non-heterosexual citizens from full acceptance in our society, as equal legal citizens under the law.
And by even posting in this thread, you are acting on your homophobia. By turning your head, you are acting on your homophobia. By making a face, and freaking out, you are acting on your homophobia. Not acting on your internalized bias would be NOT HAVING any bias. Being slightly uncomfortable for external reasons isn't an active bias and most people can get over this quickly and learn to repress this bias. Being disgusted is a bias. Being disgusted is a condemnation. Not having internalized homophobia means that homophobia has been repressed to the point it's effectively dormant in your system.
Homosexuality has absolutely zero affect, neither perceived nor real, on heterosexuals. So it's ultimately easier for a homophobe to accept homosexuality if they're straight than a straight man who is misogynistic.
Yet again they hate homosexuals and what people hate becomes a threat.
I don't know who is asking for tolerance. No-one seeks to simply be tolerated. I seek full legal and social equality, we see full legal and social equality. Not tolerance. I'm not a disease. And clearly, with the continued institutionalized discrimination non-heterosexuals continue to deal with globally, there is not wide-spread tolerance of homosexuality, let alone acceptance.
Yet, you start with tolerance and build up from there. If you get an homophobe to be tolerant, hey i would say thats a big gain. But probably that same ex-homophobe will never become a person who will truly accept gays. Yet his/her kids or the grandkids will do accept it.
I believe its awfully bad to pressure beyond the limits of a person, the reactions you get are not normally the ones desired.
Insects aren't human beings.
Come on, you understood it perfectly as an analogy, don't play dumb.
Thousands of people have gone from homophobic to gay positive through the years. Homophobia isn't a "taste". It's an irrational bias. It's a socially constructed bias, and it *can* be changed, as several posters in this very thread attest.
That its like saying "being gay" is irrational and "can" be changed. Common, how many gays become full heteros?
No, the fact they are homophobic in itself is not their fault. People have been indoctrinated into homophobia and it's completely understandable many would have damage and scars. The fact people are making excuses for why they continue to be homophobic deserves condemnation. If you choose to do wrong when you know you are doing wrong, you will be called out as wrong. It's not hard to figure out.
This goes again into the rightness pov of each person. I don't see in the wrong, for example, the OP. He doesn't like to see men kissing and he just turns away, that's about it. He won't go and manifest agains't you or gay marriage. It's like sado/maso people tolerate it, but they would rather just turn around when it happens, because they don't feel confortable about it.
Don't ever compare homosexuality and homophobia again.
Why not? It's the two sides of the coin.
Having fear of crashing in a plane while you're inside is a fear that can be rationalized, and isn't completely irrational and baseless. Homophobia is completely irrational and baseless. It's also not a crippling phobia like fear of flying or heights. It's not something that causes you to immediately panic and shake and want to get away from the situation at once. It's not a phobia like arachnophobia. It's not a disorder. You want to pity homophobes and I'm not going to go along with it.
A fear is always irrational. Thats why its a fear. Inventing a word i would call it "crashphobia" and i have tried so many times to make it rational, and no its not, its simply irrational , no matter how many times i tell myself that i have the same probability of crashing in a plane than to win the lottery. I STILL FEAR IT. For homophobia there is a base, le it be an exp or taught to fear or hate it, its deep within the person, and almost no way to exorcise it. Yes some homophobes change to homosexuality, but -and i might be wrong, because i havent done the research- its because they already know they are gay but want to deny it to the extreme. Yet, probably the 90% of the homophobes are not like that, or so it seems.
Evolution works based on the sum of all parts, of all things, working together to create the best possible, most healthy society. Natural society, human society. Things are judged based on their overall value to the entire evolutionary process. That's why thinking sex=procreation is wrong because there are OTHER benefits to sex that give benefit to the overall value of society. That's why it's wrong to classify homosexuality as unnatural. There are benefits to homosexuality that don't include procreation which give it positive value to the entire evolutionary cycle, and natural world.
You are misunderstanding evolution -as a biological fact- with civilization -as a human fact- Tell me, what are the benefits to homosexuality for an species, purely in biological terms, no moral, no civilization, just genes.
Yeah you didn't got that one. YOUR DESIRED PARTNER, which is another man. What i mean is, only as human, only with money, and only -and if- the technology is available, a baby that comes from two men cells is possible.
And just to be clear I'm not gay, nor am I black or a woman, but I don't find two guys kissing disgusting even for a second or think homosexuality or oral sex is "unnatural" or think black people are "slightly gross".
And just to be clear I'm not gay, nor am I black or a woman, but I don't find two guys kissing disgusting even for a second or think homosexuality or oral sex is "unnatural" or think black people are "slightly gross".
Based on the video you linked it seems you misunderstood the "not a lot of study" part. It's mainly about the effect of genes on sexuality. Not about homosexual behavior across history/nature. (And "a lot" is relative. Due to contradictory findings you'd need really looots of studies to be able to make claims with a relative certainty)
Yeah, things are getting boring. It's tiring to see people more or less want to be celebrated for being a civilized human being, while holding an opinion that more or less states homosexuality isn't OK or acceptable. It is incredibly tiring and the defensiveness is pretty disgusting. But there clearly is little that can be said to get these posters to listen because they're defiant and feel like they're being attacked and are resistant to change.
I pity them, Abomination, Generals3, Tom. I pity guys like that. I really don't get it. When I get called out on shit from people whose opinion I respect, I always do my part to examine what is being said and do my part not to continue to make the same mistakes. These guys refuse to do so. That's why it's crucial to not allow the youth of today be so indoctrinated by homophobia, racism and other biases that they become completely incapable of any sort of self-awareness of how they're being perceived by those who have matured beyond such irrational concepts. It's not sad, it's just pathetic at this point.