I think this thread has gone long enough. It just revealed that most people have a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution, nature, social constructs and are severely uninformed (or never cared in the first place) about how their actions and thoughts have consequences for other people. Furthermore, they are just plain unwilling to better themselves and only grasp at their single thread of "logic" regardless of what EVIDENCE is presented.

I can't say I'm really surprised though.

The word, if taken in it's literal sense, would mean "fear of the same (sex)".
So under that definition, I imagine everyone who feels irrationally fearful of homosexuals or homosexual activity to be homophobic to some degree. Then there's the "extreme" spectrum of homophobia that includes acts of violence and complete avoidance toward those who identify as homosexual individuals...but I feel as though that's going more towards blatant discrimination.

Getting toward what was mentioned in the original post, homophobia typically applies to one's own gender ("the same" in this case referring to one's own gender). If you are a straight individual, viewing more than one member of the opposite sex "getting it on", as you will, would seem arousing because you recognize it as two people of the gender that you're attracted to. "More of a good thing in the same place", to put it in simpler terms.

There indeed exists people who hold the idea of members of the same gender being together with great disdain (regardless of what gender they are). I like to think of them as "true" homophobics, because holding one homosexual pair in neutrality/disdain while enjoying the other seems a tad paradoxical when you look at it from an idea standpoint (as "the same" can also refer to other people's genders).

That's my thoughts on the matter.
At one point I would have identified as homophobic, but that was a good deal of years ago when I was young, ignorant and desiring of social acceptance. I'm glad to have matured since then.

I mean, we're talking to people who think homophobia and being gay are comparable. It is literally like talking to a brick wall. These people JUST.DON'T.GET.IT. It's pointless to even discuss these issues with people who straight up refuse to listen. Which is why my mentality has always been "fuck it", because eventually, you just need to look out for yourself, your loved ones, your community and fuck the rest. There is no point in arguing with willfully ignorant people.

Tragedy's Rebellion:
I think this thread has gone long enough. It just revealed that most people have a fundamental lack of knowledge regarding evolution, nature, social constructs and are severely uninformed (or never cared in the first place) about how their actions and thoughts have consequences for other people. Furthermore, they are just plain unwilling to better themselves and only grasp at their single thread of "logic" regardless of what EVIDENCE is presented.

I can't say I'm really surprised though.

Nothing surprising at all. There is nothing else to say. Oh well, at least there are many people here who are not completely offensive, ignorant, insulting and defensive about everything. Those that are simply prove how ignorant, misinformed and averse people can be against homosexuality. Best thing to do is educate our youth and make sure the damage doesn't become too ingrained into their psyches so that they become completely resistant to change.

Luciella:

101flyboy:

Homosexuality has absolutely zero affect, neither perceived nor real, on heterosexuals. So it's ultimately easier for a homophobe to accept homosexuality if they're straight than a straight man who is misogynistic.

Yet again they hate homosexuals and what people hate becomes a threat.

I don't know who is asking for tolerance. No-one seeks to simply be tolerated. I seek full legal and social equality, we see full legal and social equality. Not tolerance. I'm not a disease. And clearly, with the continued institutionalized discrimination non-heterosexuals continue to deal with globally, there is not wide-spread tolerance of homosexuality, let alone acceptance.

Yet, you start with tolerance and build up from there.
If you get an homophobe to be tolerant, hey i would say thats a big gain. But probably that same ex-homophobe will never become a person who will truly accept gays. Yet his/her kids or the grandkids will do accept it.

I believe its awfully bad to pressure beyond the limits of a person, the reactions you get are not normally the ones desired.

Insects aren't human beings.

Come on, you understood it perfectly as an analogy, don't play dumb.

Thousands of people have gone from homophobic to gay positive through the years. Homophobia isn't a "taste". It's an irrational bias. It's a socially constructed bias, and it *can* be changed, as several posters in this very thread attest.

That its like saying "being gay" is irrational and "can" be changed. Common, how many gays become full heteros?

No, the fact they are homophobic in itself is not their fault. People have been indoctrinated into homophobia and it's completely understandable many would have damage and scars. The fact people are making excuses for why they continue to be homophobic deserves condemnation. If you choose to do wrong when you know you are doing wrong, you will be called out as wrong. It's not hard to figure out.

This goes again into the rightness pov of each person. I don't see in the wrong, for example, the OP. He doesn't like to see men kissing and he just turns away, that's about it.
He won't go and manifest agains't you or gay marriage. It's like sado/maso people tolerate it, but they would rather just turn around when it happens, because they don't feel confortable about it.

Don't ever compare homosexuality and homophobia again.

Why not? It's the two sides of the coin.

Having fear of crashing in a plane while you're inside is a fear that can be rationalized, and isn't completely irrational and baseless. Homophobia is completely irrational and baseless. It's also not a crippling phobia like fear of flying or heights. It's not something that causes you to immediately panic and shake and want to get away from the situation at once. It's not a phobia like arachnophobia. It's not a disorder. You want to pity homophobes and I'm not going to go along with it.

A fear is always irrational. Thats why its a fear.
Inventing a word i would call it "crashphobia" and i have tried so many times to make it rational, and no its not, its simply irrational , no matter how many times i tell myself that i have the same probability of crashing in a plane than to win the lottery. I STILL FEAR IT.
For homophobia there is a base, le it be an exp or taught to fear or hate it, its deep within the person, and almost no way to exorcise it.
Yes some homophobes change to homosexuality, but -and i might be wrong, because i havent done the research- its because they already know they are gay but want to deny it to the extreme.
Yet, probably the 90% of the homophobes are not like that, or so it seems.

Evolution works based on the sum of all parts, of all things, working together to create the best possible, most healthy society. Natural society, human society. Things are judged based on their overall value to the entire evolutionary process. That's why thinking sex=procreation is wrong because there are OTHER benefits to sex that give benefit to the overall value of society. That's why it's wrong to classify homosexuality as unnatural. There are benefits to homosexuality that don't include procreation which give it positive value to the entire evolutionary cycle, and natural world.

You are misunderstanding evolution -as a biological fact- with civilization -as a human fact-
Tell me, what are the benefits to homosexuality for an species, purely in biological terms, no moral, no civilization, just genes.

Desired partner? LOL. Desired partner? Homosexuals don't desire the opposite sex.

Sperm+egg=baby. Natural birth.

Yeah you didn't got that one. YOUR DESIRED PARTNER, which is another man.
What i mean is, only as human, only with money, and only -and if- the technology is available, a baby that comes from two men cells is possible.

I'm done with this thread for right now but I need to say that the fact you compare being born gay to being socially indoctrinated into a homophobic mentality and S&M sexual fetish and think homosexuality is a biological anomaly (do your own research on the benefits of homosexuality, and btw, as long as something doesn't actively cause harm, which homosexuality doesn't, it isn't a trait that is somehow "against" the evolutionary process) more or less says it all regarding your views on the subject.

You think being born gay and the choice of being homophobic is comparable and then expect a legitimate response from me in return? I don't think so. These last few days have been a waste of time. Get educated on the subject of homosexuality, or better yet, see what some on here who are educated on the subject have had to say, and then we can have an argument that actually means something.

monkey_man:
Now let's stop advocating about the rights of gay-people, because basically anyone with at least 3 braincells will agree that gays have the same rights as nongays, and that just because they're gay doesn't make them lesser, evil, stupid, weird, or some other negative adjective. And that's pretty much all I'll have to say and read about this entire thread.

Okay, totally glad you think that gays and not-gays have the same rights. However, strictly speaking, that is simply not true. At least in America, gay couples cannot get married, with all the rights and benefits that entails (tax benefits, hospital visitation rights, etc). In addition, it is very legal to be fired from your job based upon your sexuality, as a number of gay and bisexual people have discovered. I'm glad you think that those things are stupid, but there are people who think differently and there are laws that say differently.

The person you were talking to may have been more in-your-face than they should have been, but this is still a serious and ongoing issue, and reasonable voices (just like yours) need to be heard in the public square.

101flyboy:
-snip-

When possible, please use magical -snipping- powers or [spoiler tags] so that your posts don't get bonkers.

In addition, please calm down. You have gone off on a number of people throughout this thread, and not all of them were deserving of it. Yelling at bystanders with solid points does nothing to help the cause of "people should be treated equally, regardless of gender, race, creed, who you want to boink, etc".

Grey Carter:
There are numerous people in this thread who've admitted that seeing physical affection in public makes them uncomfortable regardless of the genders of those involved. I know a few gay men who find the idea of kissing women similarly unappealing.

I agree. I don't think that being uncomfortable with seeing public displays of affection is homophobic. It CAN be a sign of homophobia, but it is not inherently homophobic.

101flyboy:
I'm done with this thread for right now but I need to say that the fact you compare being born gay to being socially indoctrinated into a homophobic mentality and S&M sexual fetish and think homosexuality is a biological anomaly (do your own research on the benefits of homosexuality, and btw, as long as something doesn't actively cause harm, which homosexuality doesn't, it isn't a trait that is somehow "against" the evolutionary process) more or less says it all regarding your views on the subject.

You think being born gay and the choice of being homophobic is comparable and then expect a legitimate response from me in return? I don't think so. These last few days have been a waste of time. Get educated on the subject of homosexuality, or better yet, see what some on here who are educated on the subject have had to say, and then we can have an argument that actually means something.

Well, arent YOU the expert? Thats why im asking you, if you refuse to tell me that, in order to make me and whoever i chat with look at the light u see and live, how would u expect to -fight- for your rights?
Hey, i dont care about gays, im curious. But i by no means i will go on a large reasearch on something that doesn't directly affect me.
The same way you wont go on a large reasearch on say, arachnophobia. But you will ask an expert, or someone that has it if you get curious about it.
Anyway, the idea here is to know what's on your mind and why you are so intolerant to whoever doesnt share your exact way of thinking.

You said less on that last response that...well, nevermind you said nothing.

Want people to accept you and gays?
Start to make people care, instead of insulting them.

101flyboy:
I think you need to think a little bit less about it :) You freak out when two guys show affection, and you're also sort of freaking out about freaking out when it comes to two guys showing affection. You know how you operate so I can't tell you specifically what I would do, but when I was younger and a bit spooked when I saw two people of the same-sex kissing, I sort of shook my head around and opened my eyes wide, to clear my head. You have to do something to calm down a bit whenever the urge to freak out comes.

XD

I'm sure I've failed to accurately depict what I mean.

I'm fearless for my own safety, I don't involuntarily jump when something suddenly leaps out at me, and my heart doesn't skip a beat at nearly being in an 85 mph car accident (incidentally, that was the first indicator that I no longer seem to have fear for my safety.)

As the trailer for an upcoming movie managed to articulate, when I could not - I realized "fear is not real. It is a product of the thoughts you create. Don't misunderstand me. Danger is very real. But fear is a choice."
(the apparent lack of a thing as useful as fear, ironically, worries me a bit...)
Once you realize that, -most- everything else in your mind is a cakewalk.

So it ends up that I've sort of got ice water in my veins when it comes to "freaking out" (unless it involves my loved ones, which is where I DO feel fear/paranoia/worry too much/etc).

The things that DO phase me (e.g. things that just inexplicably weird me out) are likewise controlled. It's just a sudden pulse of reflex that flashes through me, but I slam on the brakes before I even outwardly react.
- I could walk into a random room and discover two guys having sex, but outwardly my reaction would probably just be a "WTF?" expression and an exasperated sigh, followed by ignoring them.
- A roach could land on my eye and I'd just grab, toss to ground, squish, angrily declare war on its kind for daring to invade my domain.
.
.
.
So I suppose you could say that the confusion arises because, like my thoughts/opinions, I'd not considered the impact of not filtering/differentiating the impulses behind my actions/non-actions and my actions/non-actions themselves.

So where I honestly get seriously weirded out, and one could reasonably envision that that would entail me freaking out, the reality is that I get seriously weirded out and actually just simply ignore it.

Something has to weird me out in a rational way before it bothers me. For example, if I got reliable information regarding a close friend that was disturbing and wildly out-of-character....that's the type of thing that has the potential to shake me and leave me noticeably out-of-whack.
If it's something I have no rational reason to be concerned with, I can outwardly ignore it.

.
.
.

I sound ridiculous sometimes... >_>

Grey Carter:

101flyboy:

Grey Carter:

This is perfectly natural and acceptable.

It's perfectly natural to want to throw up when two men kiss?

No. It isn't perfectly natural. And it's not acceptable. At all. Especially considering that there are numerous people in this very thread who have no real issue with two guys kissing.

I don't see threads with gay men saying "I hate seeing a man and woman kiss. It's disgusting!". You don't see threads like that because there isn't any socially indoctrinated stigma against heterosexuality.

There are numerous people in this thread who've admitted that seeing physical affection in public makes them uncomfortable regardless of the genders of those involved. I know a few gay men who find the idea of kissing women similarly unappealing.

A few people have said that, that's true, and for those people, it's a different situation than the majority who have said they find PDA uncomfortable/disgusting, in that they simply find same-sex PDA uncomfortable/disgusting and not "PDA". There are some who are simply uncomfortable with displays of affection in general and that's fine, but it's not cool to solely be biased against same-sex PDA or only male-male PDA, and not opposite-sex PDA.

Also, we're not talking about kissing the same-sex, we're talking about people displaying low/moderate displays of PDA with a spouse. Hand holding and light kissing. Being uncomfortable with kissing the gender you're not oriented to really has nothing to do with what this thread is about.

Luciella:

101flyboy:
I'm done with this thread for right now but I need to say that the fact you compare being born gay to being socially indoctrinated into a homophobic mentality and S&M sexual fetish and think homosexuality is a biological anomaly (do your own research on the benefits of homosexuality, and btw, as long as something doesn't actively cause harm, which homosexuality doesn't, it isn't a trait that is somehow "against" the evolutionary process) more or less says it all regarding your views on the subject.

You think being born gay and the choice of being homophobic is comparable and then expect a legitimate response from me in return? I don't think so. These last few days have been a waste of time. Get educated on the subject of homosexuality, or better yet, see what some on here who are educated on the subject have had to say, and then we can have an argument that actually means something.

Well, arent YOU the expert? Thats why im asking you, if you refuse to tell me that, in order to make me and whoever i chat with look at the light u see and live, how would u expect to -fight- for your rights?
Hey, i dont care about gays, im curious. But i by no means i will go on a large reasearch on something that doesn't directly affect me.
The same way you wont go on a large reasearch on say, arachnophobia. But you will ask an expert, or someone that has it if you get curious about it.
Anyway, the idea here is to know what's on your mind and why you are so intolerant to whoever doesnt share your exact way of thinking.

You said less on that last response that...well, nevermind you said nothing.

Want people to accept you and gays?
Start to make people care, instead of insulting them.

I'm intolerant towards homophobia because I hate it and hate what it does to society. In this case, I'm not completely intolerant to what is being said here because I don't think many people here are pure homophobes. However, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed because I do not understand why many cannot get it and continue making the same ignorant statements over and over, not just here but in general. I know harm may not be meant, but it's annoying. I don't get what is so hard to get for so many, and what makes me mad is the defiance people have in their ignorant views instead of listening to people with first-hand knowledge. This is what I avoid in my personal life. I have a short fuse when it comes to this stuff.

That's why I'm a bad advocate. I'm a fight fire with fire type. That's the New York in me. So I apologize for coming on too strong but I'm annoyed and the fact you compared being gay to S&M is NOT OK whatsoever and that more or less was the breaking point for me, at least yesterday. There is only so much.............lack of understanding, I can handle.

I expect people to get it at this point. I don't expect people in 2013 not to get it and the fact so many don't is an annoyance in the very least, and it wears you down. I'm jaded. But if you're truly willing to listen and learn and understand, I'm totally down with that and appreciate that. I've found a lot of RESISTANCE to that which is what has pissed me off. I've found most here don't actually want to listen and instead are wanting to inject their 2 cents into a situation they don't understand.

I don't need people's acceptance. That's the #1 thing. It's this "well I'm not going to accept this and that's my opinion" or "say something to make me accept you" mentality that offends me. Why wouldn't you just accept people for who they are, without conditions, and be done with it? WHY can't that be done? It's honestly, not that difficult. I don't see any excuse for it. I'm not going to grovel to get people to like me. It's time for everyday straight people to get on the ball and start doing what you all need to do to build bridges. We don't, the gay community and our straight allies, need to do all the work, nor should we. But if you want a discussion, let's have a discussion.

Zen Toombs:

101flyboy:
-snip-

When possible, please use magical -snipping- powers or [spoiler tags] so that your posts don't get bonkers.

In addition, please calm down. You have gone off on a number of people throughout this thread, and not all of them were deserving of it. Yelling at bystanders with solid points does nothing to help the cause of "people should be treated equally, regardless of gender, race, creed, who you want to boink, etc".

First point, OK, I will :)

Second point, there are zero solid points in defense of internalized homophobia or bias against homosexuality. None exist. That's the entire crux of the issue. I separate causal discomfort of PDA in general or casual discomfort due to lack of visibility of same-sex kissing from the several here who have called homosexuality unnatural, abnormal, against evolution, disgusting, revulsion. Of course, reading these things typed over and over and over are going to piss a person off. It's complete bullshit.

"Homophobia" etymologically speaking is a train-wreck. Due to its greek roots, homo (meaning same or oneness) and phobos (fear) it should mean fear of oneness, it might be a good word for a phobia of intimacy, but as a label for something or someone that homosexuals find offensive (which is what the word is used to denote in common parlance) it really doesn't work. People who dislike homosexuals or homosexuality are not usually afraid of them/it. They either hate it, dislike it, don't understand it or a combination of the three. A more correct term would be homoerosunphilia, or the dislike of homosexuality, using the roots for sameness (homo), sexual love (eros) and dislike or negative love (unphilia).

As for what it is to dislike homosexuals, the OP is not prejudiced, his body has a knee-jerk reaction of disgust to homosexual men, and sexual activity between men. That is a bodily reaction that the OP cannot be blamed for. You would be prejudiced if you consciously and willingly had a problem with consenting gay or bisexual men (or women) having romantic or sexual relations with each other.

My own two cents. I think homophobia can be based on a instictive fear of being raped.

Ieyke:
I sound ridiculous sometimes... >_>

Grahav:
My own two cents. I think homophobia can be based on a instictive fear of being raped.

I actually have read that many men who have been raped do end up resenting gay men. They blame gay men for their rape. When they think of gay it takes them back to that place when they were abused. A major amount of them become confused in their orientation, and they don't want to be gay or don't feel right in being gay. And you're right that the fear, with men at least, of losing control is a big deal. The man is no longer the protector role with another man. You no longer automatically have control over your spouse. It's an feeling of vulnerability men don't like. The fear a gay man will treat a straight man the way straight men treat women. Misogyny is also in play. A lot of gay/bi men don't like receiving anal sex for the same reason, not having control.

I wouldn't say you're homophobic you just don't like seeing guys kissing because you're not attracted to them. In the same way you wouldn't enjoy watching two very unattractive women kissing, it's because it's not attractive to you. So yeah you are a homophobe

So the question basically boils down to 'Can I be homophobic if I'm sexist?' And the answer is of course, you can be both at once.

Yeah, there aren't any solid points for internalized homophobia, and you have every right to be upset and yell at the people who say that homosexuality is "unnatural, abnormal, against evolution etc".

But internalized stigma is not inherently a reason to go off on them. Internalized stigma comes from outside sources, and so long as that person does their best to realize their stigma and biases and so long as they do their best to reduce their stigma, they are not badwrong people to be yelled at.

In addition, you have gone off on people who are uncomfortable with gay sex or who use the word "tolerate" in regards to two men kissing. Now I'm a bisexual male. I like guys and I like gals. However, I am personally uncomfortable with anal sex, and prefer blowjobs and other sex stuff when I'm fooling around with a guy. In addition, I'm not a huge fan of PDA regardless of source. I could accurately be said to "tolerate" most instances of two guys kissing.

I'm not saying that there are no people on this thread who deserve their head being torn off, but from what I have seen you have been a bit overzealous from the start. Please pick your targets with a bit more care next time, for the cause.

101flyboy:
I'm intolerant towards homophobia because I hate it and hate what it does to society. In this case, I'm not completely intolerant to what is being said here because I don't think many people here are pure homophobes. However, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed because I do not understand why many cannot get it and continue making the same ignorant statements over and over, not just here but in general. I know harm may not be meant, but it's annoying. I don't get what is so hard to get for so many, and what makes me mad is the defiance people have in their ignorant views instead of listening to people with first-hand knowledge. This is what I avoid in my personal life. I have a short fuse when it comes to this stuff.

That's why I'm a bad advocate. I'm a fight fire with fire type. That's the New York in me. So I apologize for coming on too strong but I'm annoyed and the fact you compared being gay to S&M is NOT OK whatsoever and that more or less was the breaking point for me, at least yesterday. There is only so much.............lack of understanding, I can handle.

I expect people to get it at this point. I don't expect people in 2013 not to get it and the fact so many don't is an annoyance in the very least, and it wears you down. I'm jaded. But if you're truly willing to listen and learn and understand, I'm totally down with that and appreciate that. I've found a lot of RESISTANCE to that which is what has pissed me off. I've found most here don't actually want to listen and instead are wanting to inject their 2 cents into a situation they don't understand.

I don't need people's acceptance. That's the #1 thing. It's this "well I'm not going to accept this and that's my opinion" or "say something to make me accept you" mentality that offends me. Why wouldn't you just accept people for who they are, without conditions, and be done with it? WHY can't that be done? It's honestly, not that difficult. I don't see any excuse for it. I'm not going to grovel to get people to like me. It's time for everyday straight people to get on the ball and start doing what you all need to do to build bridges. We don't, the gay community and our straight allies, need to do all the work, nor should we. But if you want a discussion, let's have a discussion.

I compered it to S&M because its a sexual preference that people take on or they simply like the idea of pain since they are born. For an outsider like me, its sounds a lot in same line as homosexuality and sure many S&M couples love eachother. If that comparison insulted you in truly sorry.

As for 2013, well hey many people don't get bulling, nor (and back to the theme) many people don't accept women as pro, or that USA is the main reason Mexico is in a blood bath due to the demand of drugs, or that videogames are not the reason for school massacres. See where im going?
Only in the perfect world people will accept the problems and understand each other, or as you put it accept people for who they are.

Sadly not in this one, in this world you either adapt to the majorities or try hard so they accept your minority.
Want an example?
Nerds, do you think highschool kids will stop to be bullies to them because there are w/e movements on the net media etc, and simply accept them?
No, when your a teen and nerd you learn to defend yourself and make bullies respect you, that how its done. The wont accept you just for who you are, thats not how world works and you know it.

Yet again, straight people have no need to build those "bridges" because its simply not our problem, if you think its straight people's responsibility -our ball- to build it, you are very very wrong and we will end up nowhere near the understanding btwn majorities and minorities.

After reading about 8 pages of this thread I feel I should somehow feel bad for being uncomfortable near male-male PDA (nice new term for my dictionary, btw).
I just wish to point out that I'd change if I could, but I guess it's just the way I was raised.

I'd also like to say I'm totally okay with them doing it. I believe it's their right. I'm just not too fond of looking at it.

And you may even say I'm homophobic because of that. Well, what can I do about that, then?

Wow... overzealous could describe this thread. Maybe just sad.

Once, it meant to actively holding a grudge and persecuting homosexuals.

Today, it means not holding in respect sodomy. That's bad, you are evil if you do.

I would state with the OP that homophobia should define as "An extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something", is Google puts it. Therefore homophobia means that said person has an extreme/irrational fear of/aversion to people who are homosexual, most likely because they have a belief that said homosexual could affect them personally. People who are germophobic are actually afraid of germs because they have an extreme aversion to getting sick/infected. People are claustrophobic because they are afraid that the closed spaces will collapse on them or remind them of a past trauma. People who are afraid of heights (vertiphobic? I don't remember) are afraid of falling to their demise/severe injury (I personally hate heights because of that reason, and I used to be afraid of germs and toxic materials).

So, using that definition, homophobics I would say believe that said homosexual would either attempt to perform homosexual actions with them or change their preferences towards homosexuality. Now, they would probably not ever tell you this, but the brain works faster than anyone is aware of, so it could easily make those fears and logic flash by in a matter of milliseconds.

How this ties into the OP, however, is a little different.

I personally am in the same boat as you, Sylvester. I like seeing two girls kissing. I think most guys do. And I know my girlfriend has a thing for reading yaori right next to me in bed (not kidding, but it's apparently more softcore-romantic stuff than porn) and she can't stand the sight of two girls kissing. I think this is because of one simple experiment that can easily be preformed by any straight person of any gender.

Picture a hot woman and a hot man kissing/making love/whatever. Guys, focus on the hot woman enjoying herself. Hot, right? Girls, focus on the hot guy. Hot again, right? Now switch. Guys, focus on the hot man enjoying himself. Girls, focus on the hot woman enjoying herself. Not so hot anymore, huh?

What happens when a straight guy/girl sees a two girls/guys doing those actions is that the part of the mind dedicated to sexual orientation sees two people of the preferred gender enjoying themselves and it can be mentally considered a "guilt-free" situation, where the observer can see both participants and enjoy the thought/sight of both without the part of the brain that controls sexual orientation acting. If two people of the unpreferred gender to the observer are doing the same things, the sexual orientation part of the mind shuts off the reaction to become aroused, and gives the observer a bad feeling to force them to remove themselves from the situation. It's like an old breeding instinct.

Now, this could be wrong, but I personally think that is why the sights of two men or women having intimate relations sparks specific responses in the minds of specific genders with a heterosexual orientation. Feel free to debate this one.

Well I was going to make a long winded post about how people like Flyboy need to stop focusing on those who come to places like this who are truly ignorant, and/or have irrational fears of homosexuality that they don't have themself to blame for, and honestly exhibit a willingness (at least in the OP)to listen, by branding them as bigots for relatively minor things that are for the most part easily corrected. However my dumb ass keyboard keeps causing me to switch pages, and lose progress or delete whole sentences while I'm typing. Alas having a new computer is not always an across the board improvement.

I just want to say this. I am a gay woman. I've dealt with real bigotry. The OP is ignorant yes, but so long as he has honest intentions to explore why he has those feelings and not act on them in a public setting, then he is not the kind of person to be putting this much effort into. I know people like to be the righteous crusader, and that combating bigotry is an easy good/bad/black/white scenario from a first glance. However going after the OP with claims of bigotry only serves to instil further animosity and distrust among groups. Take more caution in who you brand someone with a title of a bigot or a racist, as you'll many times that isn't the case or that with a little less hostility you could easily make that not the case any longer. That only applies to people that approach the subject without any maliciousness or ill intent. THOSE PEOPLE.... yeah call them bigots, ignore and hate them all you want. They are actively going out of their way to deserve that kind of response. The op is not one of those people from what I could tell.

"PS: Reading now the pages that I've missed before, I see that the genetics thing has been done to death. Of course it may be the only trump card that straights have before resorting to uglier stuff, but I still sound like a late-comer at this discussion by repeating that argument, although it really is my honest view about it."

Well, unless somebody comes up with a better name for what I am, I'm a homophobe. It took me a while to realize it. It almost felt like coming out of the closet. In fact, I only labeled myself as such after I began to have a strange feeling that there was something wrong with me (pretty much similar to the OP). Realizing that there was nothing wrong with me, I decided that I had too much of an opposing stance to gays to just ignore it. I've never had a wrong or violent reaction to gays. I know some and feel perfectly comfortable around them. Also not once did we discuss it in any way. I've never had a bad reaction when finding out that such and such actor or musician was gay. Heck, I'm a Queen and Placebo fan. Yes, I don't like being touched by people of my own sex, but I don't care what others do in their own homes. So, why am I a homophobe?
Because regardless of anything said, I do not, will not, EVER, think that being gay is "normal". I am sick of quoting Seinfeld's "not that there's anything wrong with it...". Yes, I do think there's something wrong with it, and whenever asked, I will reply this, safe under the cover of my homophobe label and not needing to find ways to defend my own stance on it. For me, being gay is not "normal", in the sole view that sex in nature equals making babies. And to do that you need a male and a female. For me, case closed. Of course, at first glance, our society doesn't work that way, sex for humans appearing a bit more complicated, right? Not really. Because regardless of all the crazy shit straight couples go with every day in their bedrooms (mine included), regardless of all the perverted, violence, coercion, rape, and whatnot, in the end, we're all here because of an unbroken link of straight people having sex for a few million years. Being gay makes you a dead end for your blood-line. Actually screw the blood-line, being gay means that there won't be a "half you - half your loved one" running round the playground in your life. Is that normal? No. Ignore genetics all you care... gay or not, you're alive because of genetics. I don't know any gay person not wanting children with their soul-mates(but I do know straight ones... even more weird for me), but surely they must admit that in that view, being gay doesn't work, right? Of course, being "bi" and ralying around the rainbow flag is nothing less than hypocrisy, a noble name for being a pervert (don't jump, we all are perverts in a way or another, we just have different thresholds). I just don't consider them as worthy of any gay pride parade, more than any man wearing a thong.
But does my above view make me a homophobe in the strict sense? Does the behavior of others bother me? No. Should my views bother them? No. But still... One quick glance at the gay culture revolution in the last 100 years will show that gays do feel bothered by not being labeled as "normal". It's not just injustice and violence against them that makes it so, it's their own brains seeking acceptance, even by enforcing it ad nausea, from their peers. So, somehow, they made being gay "a different normal". And they made anyone not agreeing with that a candidate of the name "homophobe". I have no idea how, but in the name of politically correctness, they've won. Thus, for lack of a better word, I'm a homophobe, a mild one, true, but a homophobe. And for me at least, "there's nothing wrong with it".

I've been avoiding this thread because I've no interest in repeating my arguments from the gaymer con thread. I will just say this:

This is extremely minor stuff. This subtle level of homophobia isn't going to disappear overnight. We'll just have to endure it and wait until it goes away on its own. If straight people are disgusted by the sight of a same-sex couple engaging in PDA, then that's frankly barely even worth mentioning. That shouldn't even be a blip in the radar.

The actual problem comes when this mild, absolutely ignorable level of homophobia starts getting more and more supporters, and eventually starts escalating because it doesn't find any dissenters. That's the only thing that worries me about topics like these. It's very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) to start building up from each other, bringing up all the tiny ways in which the LGBT movement has inconvenienced them (or hasn't done what they think it should have done), plus all their judgements on the LGBT community ("gays are unnatural because nature," bisexuals are just sluts/perverts," "trans people are not right in the head," "genderqueer people and sexually fluid/unsure people are just wanting attention," and so on), and it starts escalating into true hate speech, or worse, hate crimes.

I have nothing against individual people who might be ignorant or slightly homophobic, but I am definitely wary of the mob effect.

101flyboy:

Disgust is a major line in the sand basically saying THIS IS WRONG. So whether people realize it or not, when you call basic same-sex affection disgusting, you're calling it wrong.

Not really, I'm Heterosexual and to a degree I find it fairly disgusting when you see any couple aggressively making out in public, Could be taking my younger brother out for the day who's like 4 (I don't want to have to be the one to explain that to him at that age), or be having my lunch, not everybody wants to see that. But I don't find the idea of people making out disgusting out at all, I enjoy it myself, so I'mm defiantly not classing the act as wrong, just seeing it in a public place.

So I myself am a walking talking contradiction to everything you just said. So can't what this guy is saying simply mean that its not that he does not approve, just that he does not wish to see it. Plus its a little contradictory to call him homophobic when he has a different reaction to 2 females. I'm yet to meet some one that like "good on you" about female homosexuals but then has a genuine dislike of male homosexuals, seems a little contradictory to be white washing him as homophobic.

With that brush I'm a self loathing Heterophobe.

Edit: re-reading hist post I will admit his reaction is a little OTT, but like a lot of the posters on here he's probably on the younger side of 20, cut him a break, might just be a kid, not everyone is a Homophobe some people just need to grow up a bit.

Edit: have seen reading yet more posts that this has already been addressed, feel free to ignore this post.

Darken12:

The actual problem comes when this mild, absolutely ignorable level of homophobia starts getting more and more supporters, and eventually starts escalating because it doesn't find any dissenters. That's the only thing that worries me about topics like these. It's very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) to start building up from each other, bringing up all the tiny ways in which the LGBT movement has inconvenienced them (or hasn't done what they think it should have done), plus all their judgements on the LGBT community ("gays are unnatural because nature," bisexuals are just sluts/perverts," "trans people are not right in the head," "genderqueer people and sexually fluid/unsure people are just wanting attention," and so on), and it starts escalating into true hate speech, or worse, hate crimes.

I'm not being funny but your trying to defend the LGBT an then you write this paragraph which in itself is a prejudiced Heterophobic rant against Hetro males. I barely ever get pissed off about anything that some people say on the net that should offend me.

But I'll be honest as a Hetro male, this flipping pissed me off. It works both ways, even if you are a Hetro male, who are you to paint me and many of my friends & family with the brush that if we all get together we are possibly all going to become massive homophobes, based souly off our sexuality and gender.

You spout equality and then write that...

And don't deny it you said "very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) " that is prejudiced. Yer so cheers for that, speaking about equality and having now phobics of any kind, but yer because I'm strait and a male, its apparently very easy for me to be Homophobic.

Jedi-Hunter4:
I'm not being funny but your trying to defend the LGBT an then you write this paragraph which in itself is a prejudiced Heterophobic rant against Hetro males. I barely ever get pissed off about anything that some people say on the net that should offend me.

But I'll be honest as a Hetro male, this flipping pissed me off. It works both ways, even if you are a Hetro male, who are you to paint me and many of my friends & family with the brush that if we all get together we are possibly all going to become massive homophobes, based souly off our sexuality and gender.

You spout equality and then write that...

And don't deny it you said "very easy for straight people (particularly straight males) " that is prejudiced. Yer so cheers for that, speaking about equality and having now phobics of any kind, but yer because I'm strait and a male, its apparently very easy for me to be Homophobic.

Let me put it like this: most hate crimes against the LGBT community are committed by straight and usually white males. This isn't discrimination, this is fact. Just like a woman has every right to fear rape when surrounded by straight males (because most rapists are straight males), I have a right to fear hate speech or hate crimes when a bunch of straight males start talking about the things that the LGBT community does that piss them off.

I understand that it's unfair to paint you in the same brush as everyone else when I don't know you and you've probably done nothing wrong, but you can't blame us for being wary of situations that can turn ugly. Look at the whole Sarkeesian debacle, or the gaymer con thread, or any time anyone implies that there's something that can be improved about the gaming industry or the gaming community. Everyone jumps at the throat of the dissenter, and if left unchecked, the mob effect takes place and escalation becomes fact. If you are different, then good for you. But you aren't the only straight male in the crowd, and I'm not wary of you, I'm wary of the other ones.

101flyboy:
I actually have read that many men who have been raped do end up resenting gay men. They blame gay men for their rape. When they think of gay it takes them back to that place when they were abused. A major amount of them become confused in their orientation, and they don't want to be gay or don't feel right in being gay. And you're right that the fear, with men at least, of losing control is a big deal. The man is no longer the protector role with another man. You no longer automatically have control over your spouse. It's an feeling of vulnerability men don't like. The fear a gay man will treat a straight man the way straight men treat women. Misogyny is also in play. A lot of gay/bi men don't like receiving anal sex for the same reason, not having control.

Your talking about equality and acceptance, yet there are multiple Hetrophobic statements in this (that's right equality, acceptance and exemption from prejudiced should be afforded to all believe it or not)

- It's not acceptable to say all strait men take up the "protector role" that's a gender stereotype
- It's not acceptable to say strait men enjoy control over their female spouses
- It's not acceptable to say things like "The fear a gay man will treat a straight man the way straight men treat women" what exactly are you trying to say about how strait men treat their female partners.

If I were to go after you in the same way you have gone after some of the people in this topic (for saying far less blatantly offensive things) I would be branding you a Hetrophobe, because what you have just said there IS offensive, I am offended.

Your comments are narrow minded and untrue. I can assure you as Hetro male, I've had several relationships where at no point did I feel "in control" in anyway let along have control over my partner. Your description essentially makes it sound as if hetro males enjoy abusive relationships over women in the form of a power complex over their partners. As well as making strait women out to be fairly weak and open to accepting abuse.

I'd say get off that high horse your on. Stop branding people with that Homophobic iron and look at your own views because if you believe any of that then you have Hetrophobic veiws.

An before you go demanding my veiw's, to find out if I'm a "vengeful strait homophobe". I couldn't give a crap about anyone's orientation (as long as its that of consenting adults) and seemingly unlike yourself I don't build up offensive veiws of others with different orientations. My one comment I will say about sexual orientation is I do find it sad we are still at a level of lack of acceptance where it still NEEDS to be discussed.

Darken12:

Let me put it like this: most hate crimes against the LGBT community are committed by straight and usually white males. This isn't discrimination, this is fact. Just like a woman has every right to fear rape when surrounded by straight males (because most rapists are straight males), I have a right to fear hate speech or hate crimes when a bunch of straight males start talking about the things that the LGBT community does that piss them off.

I understand that it's unfair to paint you in the same brush as everyone else when I don't know you and you've probably done nothing wrong, but you can't blame us for being wary of situations that can turn ugly. Look at the whole Sarkeesian debacle, or the gaymer con thread, or any time anyone implies that there's something that can be improved about the gaming industry or the gaming community. Everyone jumps at the throat of the dissenter, and if left unchecked, the mob effect takes place and escalation becomes fact. If you are different, then good for you. But you aren't the only straight male in the crowd, and I'm not wary of you, I'm wary of the other ones.

It's still racism and Hetrophobia. I've heard moron's use the exact same argument why they are wary of certain ethnic groups, or why they won't hire certain ethnicity's for a job because they will steal and the stats show... taking 0 account of other attributing factors. Someone's race and someone sexual orientation does not make them any more likely that an individual will exhibit certain behaviors or commit certain acts. Stats can tell you if you spin a giant wheel of people from that group you may be more likely to find one of those people, it tells you nothing about the individual.

I don't know you, I don't know if you have received abuse for what every category you happen to fall into and that's why your wary.

But it's still offensive in the same way it would be offensive to say, "I fear getting robbed in certain areas of the country when there are allot of black people around as crime statistics say this...." Just because your aiming it at the majority group in the western world does not make it okay.

"the mob effect takes place and escalation becomes fact" agreed it is. But it's still a racist and Hetrophobic view to be fearful of a group of white males, you know nothing about other than crime stats.

Prejudice is defined as a - Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.

To base your "baseline veiw" off stats is a prejudice. Not a right. Where you have an assumed veiw and they then have to change it by earning your trust is prejudice.

I'll put it like this as it is exactly the same thing. where I live per racial group a higher proportion of black people commit crime than any other racial group. Would I not been branded a racist left right and center, if I said when I see a black person I'm fearful they will commit crime. I know I'd think I was a racist if those were my veiws. It's like saying all Jew's are smart, all Americans own guns, all British people drink alcohol, because the stats show, a high percentage are smart/gun owners/drinkers than other groups. It's still a prejudice.

I know victims have more reason to be fearful. But going back to where I live, I was robbed at knife point by a black man, an saw the security guard bottled, again does that give me a right to fear black people? no. do I fear black people? no.

Because I know every person is an individual and stats mean nothing to the individual.