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Umm... whoa. This is complete and utter nonsense. A woman who fears being raped simply because she is in the company of straight males is a woman who has absolutely zero concept of what the people around her are thinking. The same goes for when you fear discrimination from straights simply because they are straights. | |
As a male myself, I am not going to debate over what a woman might or might not be thinking, and whether that's good or bad. I prefer not to pass judgement on something I have never experienced myself and am no expert on. I would rather give the benefit of the doubt to this hypothetical woman who has such fears, because I presume she must have some reason for them, even if they are merely statistics. | |
I'm not asking you to debate what any women may or may not be thinking. I'm simply saying that any woman who assumes she is in danger of being raped simply because she is in the company of penis-Americans is a woman whose thinking is incorrect. Whether or not any actual women think such a laughable concept is beside the point. It's the equivalent of white people who reflexively lock their car doors because they see a black person trying to cross the street over a block ahead. | |
Well its not exactly true there have been cases of homosexual people attacking strait people, there's morons and bigots in every sector of society. But lets face it there's a lot less homosexual people so there's going to be allot less of them. There has even been cases of homophobic attacks's by homosexual individuals. "I reserve the right to remain prejudiced until the playing field is levelled." what do you mean by that? if you mean equal numbers I find it doubtful. Homosexual people are a (admittedly large) minority group, an its probably going to stay that way forever. If you mean equal rights, most decent country's have that as a given. "What your kind has against mine is more like a broadsword." you've got a huge us and them complex. It's not my kind and your kind, we are the same kind, we just have different sexual orientations. Seriously this is backward thinking. It's not strait white people responsible for homophobic attacks it's moronic pigs, that belong in jail until they learn to act like human beings. Your going to find wall after wall put up against you when trying to show people like that the error of their ways if you yourself are prejudice. A man who I look up to and respect a great deal, who faced oppression, martin luther king said "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." "Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into friend" And finally "I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word." He didn't teach people to be fearful of white people that oppressed and had oppressed black people for 100's of years and now look at America they have a black president. There may be a long way to go with fighting racism, but he was right and his dream is coming true, slowly but still changing for the better. If MLK could fight for change with out prejudice, when being a member of a racial group that was ENSLAVED for 100's of years (i have never heard of the mass enslavement of homosexuals) then there's no excuse for your prejudiced, hetrophobic and frankly racist view. I'm a member of the human race not an individual defined by what demographic I happen to fall in. You expect that, I expect that. Give that to everyone or you don't have a leg to stand on in demanding your own rights that your entitled to. | |
Yes, but you speak from the vantage point of being a male who will probably never know the first thing about what it's like to be a woman or face such situations. While it might intellectually make little sense to you, it's possible there is information you're missing because you're not a woman.
Yes, do mention the statistical outliers and exceptions to disprove the statistical majorities. That sure is statistically meaningful.
I meant equal weaponry. LGBT hate crimes are on the rise, so until all we have against each other are words and prejudice, it's not going to be a level playing field.
Make absolutely no mistake, we are not the same kind. For as long as we are still discriminated against, for as long as we are the victims of hate speech, hate crimes and unequal rights under the law, we will never be the same kind.
Some people have no light or love to fight with. So we fight with what we have. I understand I am a disappointment to Mr. King, but that's the way it is.
That's terribly easy for you to say, when all of this is effectively foreign to you. It's awfully easy to lecture me about prejudice when the worst you've suffered is people being wary of you because you might commit a hate crime or spew hate speech. While I understand that you are ultimately right, I just don't have it in me to be anything but petty towards people who have no idea what it means to be in a marginalised group and come to lecture me about equality. | |
Darken12 you are stating you are a prejudiced and therefore irrational and admittedly biased personality. You have no intent to claim any sort of objectivity and berate other people from a perspective of blatant unapologetic prejudice for the exact same things your guilty of. Don't give this not all bigotry is equal crap. It's a BS excuse your giving to feel superior to everyone else, and not have to answer for your mean spirited hateful comments. When you admit in a debate that you are holding an irrational stance you've defeated your point. We can't take that seriously, because whether or not in anyway one can ever truly be unbiased, not even attempting to be objective and stand back from the discussion with a bit of detachment is not conducive to any proper discussion. If you have no intent to try and approach the discussion rationally, why would any of us extend you the same courtesy? Why should anyone want to you about anything that they may have an opposing view point on? Your bigotry is not justified. Your willful ignorance is not conducive to a proper discussion. You really need to stop bringing out this hateful BS in threads like this because ultimately it's hard to read some of the nasty things that are being typed out. People like you are the reason I could never be around LGBT groups. They always have a person who is so mean spirited, hateful and angry that every situation is just this toxic argument. This woe is me attitude permeated every discussion, and just pure unapologetic irrational hatred perked up at every corner. I understand the reason for being pissed off at those who personally propagated such things, but at the end of the day your hatred is not justified if its not towards anyone but them. | |
Listen to me. I have been nothing but respectful to you despite how much I vehemently disagree with you. There are many things I think of your stance on these issues that I do not publicise out of respect. I would appreciate it if you did the same. And, also, we now have something in common. The reason I've never joined any LGBT groups was also because there's always someone like you there. Also, in case you haven't noticed, they don't extend that courtesy to us in the first place. You are focusing on the small minority that is genuinely curious and willing to learn and with which a genuine discussion is possible, instead of the majority who wants to whine about everything the LGBT community is doing wrong. | |
That's an ignorant and insulting thing for you to say. Having a penis does not mean that a person cannot be raped, nor does it mean that one cannot experience the tragedy of one's loved ones being raped. I've devoted a good deal of energy listening to women who have been victims of assault. I've attended training sessions to learn how to support sexual assault victims. I've marched in Slutwalks. Where my genitals hang doesn't determine what I'm capable of learning. So it goes with sexual orientation. | |
Which is exactly why I gave you a leading figure from one of the two most heavily oppressed and persecuted groups in history black people and Jewish people. "worst you've suffered" I haven't given my lifes story, I've tried to not bottle neck you, all you know about me is I'm strait white male from the UK. That leaves a whole host of possibility's. Whether you like it or not if you want what you want you need good people who are in the majority groups to stand up and be counted with your cause, an in all honesty I'm incredibly vocal about my support for equality, but if all gay people held the same veiws as yourself, I don't think I would bother being that guy who bothers to create hassle for himself standing up for other people. Look at Peter Norman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Norman his career was ruined for standing up and being counted for what was right and down right persecuted out from normal society, do you think he would of ran the risk of ruining his life if those guys had come to him an said "you probably won't help because your a white devil but..." Most of the homosexual people I know (not all) are some of the most open minded, understanding and accepting people I've ever known, because yer they do know what its like to be a victim, or to be judged offhand. You seem to have gone the other way. So before you go and judge me and the group I happen to be a part of, if myself and a group of my friends saw yourself being beaten up because of your sexuality we would help, we would stop, we would call the police we would physically try and defend you if that's what it would take. I would still help you despite of your bigoted view, but there's allot of people who wouldn't, just think about it. An whether you think it's trivial or not. It does hurt to think there are people that automatically think I'm a bigoted monster or that me an the majority of my social group are a group of thugs going to beat on them. Based souly on my sexual orientation, my skin color and my gender. In the same way it hurts anyone else to be judged like that. Whether it happens to an individual a few times a year or daily, is it still acceptable? | |
Of course I focus on those who might agree with me! They're the only ones I bother to acknowledge or have a conversation with. The others aren't worth the conversation if they are irredeemable bigots which I don't think is 50% of the people. I think a lot of it is just plain ignorance. Unless you plan on killing a bunch of people, or using force to oppress them in the say way they are oppressing you now, they need to learn and come to agree with you, which many are and more people are changing everyday. You don't do that by just being angry and mean to everybody regardless of what they've personally done to you. At the end of the day I don't care if your respectful to me. Just don't come to a conversation to spout bigotry like a woman is totally justified to fear of rape in the presence of males. Like many have said... its basically the equivalent of thinking a black guy is going to rob you if your alone on the street. | |
Look, at the end of the day, this is what it comes down to: "I find two blacks kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered racist, condemned immediately. "I find two whites kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered racist, condemned immediately. "I find two Muslims kissing disgusting"=Automatically considered Islamophobic, condemned immediately. "I find two fat people kissing disgusting"=You don't even hear people saying this. Why? Because it's considered inappropriate. Some who do say it, never act on this. They don't go out of their way to express their disdain by turning their heads, giving dirty looks and shouting fatties at these individuals. Why? Because people are fucking respected for who they are...............but if you're gay? Game over. And if you can't see that and then realize that if you hold this position, defend this position, or somehow get mad at the gay community for being angry at the fact we're still looked at like mutants who are constantly trashed on, daily, with absolutely zero sense of sensitivity or understanding of what WE feel when we have to hear the fact our LOVE disgusts people and our existence makes up 2-3 times more likely to be targeted in hate crimes, then you're not someone I can considered a friend to our community. You want to have a conversation? Fine. Starting it off with "gays always play victim", "stop being so angry", "two guys kissing is disgusting", is not the answer. If you want a conversation, first, listen to the people who have to DEAL with this crap on a daily basis. Some of you truly don't have a clue and that's not the problem; the problem is this lack of willingness to listen and constantly injecting your two cents in a situation you simply do not understand unless your experiencing it yourself or strongly linked with people who do. It is wrong to be anti-gay and hold anti-gay positions. It's not a difference of opinion. It's not a justifiable viewpoint. It is wrong. And I get it, we've grown up in a homophobic world. Extremely homophobic world. Where everything is tailored around heterosexuality. But we're in a day and age where, there are more than enough people who do truly "get it" that the patience people have for those who don't is thin. | |
Okay Flyboy... but what if someone says that is how they feel, and they question what they should do about it. From a position of genuine ignorance of how to go forward? Like its not like they are actively choosing to feel that way, it's just a visceral response. I mean its very unfortunate and does require correction, but I don't find that immediate hostility is called for. You can't stop that they genuinely feel that way, because its a learned response from society. Are you going to just call them anti gay, or a bigot when they aren't intentionally or maliciously going after homosexuals? A dismissive and or instantly hateful response to there honest question will only lead to them just dismissing you in return. You perpetuated ignorance at that point, and while they are still at fault for maintaining their ignorance, you weren't a helpful factor. I think all I feel this thread needed was a less initially hostile response. The guy asked an honest question, reply honestly yourself. It's not a reasonable way to react, but that should always have seen the point. Thinking two guys sharing an intimate moment in public is unreasonable to be uncomfortable with if you are comfortable with other pairings. I wouldn't say it's bigotry or anti gay, but it isn't something to want to act as if it isn't a bad thing. I just think lightening up the conversation and not have it so quickly descend to accusations of bigotry is a more amicable atmosphere for everyone involved which is what idealy we should be looking to do. | |
You have the truth of it here. A great many people decry the most basic, simplistic forms of bigotry, but simultaneously fail to empathise with the members of the minority community when the more insidious forms of prejudice are pointed out to them. A straight person can show affection in public. A gay person often cannot. I'm not about to sympathise more with the passers-by, who due to lack of exposure, have a bit of a negative reaction. I'm going to sympathise with the guy who has to live his life in secrecy, possibly fearing the illogical disdain of his family and friends, or even violence. | |
Very, very true, and exactly why I don't let this subtle homophobia slide. Because as this thread in itself has shown, it's gone from "same-sex kissing between men disgusts me", to "homosexuality isn't natural", to "homosexuality is deviant", to "you're a heterophobe". This is what always happens. Group think. The way I've always seen it, you give a free pass to this, then you're only going to let it build and build and build until it becomes a real problem you cannot ignore. We can't do that. Time to nip it now. | |
Oh, I totally agree. And I need to make that clear, that there is a big difference between people who are simply curious as to why they feel this way, and what they can do to not do so, and then those who feel this way and don't care to change. The latter is who I have taken issue with. The latter is who I've, admittedly, gotten impatient and a bit hostile with. Which I shouldn't have done. Fighting fire with fire isn't the answer. With that being said, my hostility is a response to their defiance and their, more or less, condemnation of homosexuality, in calling it unnatural (that word popped up at least 15 times in this very thread), deviant and gross. This goes beyond a discomfort based on lack of experience. And it is internalized homophobia.
I totally agree. I fully understand and even empathize with those who are dealing with this internalized response, when they truly don't want to. I understand that, and I appreciate the fact some here are questioning this feeling which will, hopefully, in turn, lead to this feeling going away. I have no problem with that. I know that, the reality is, homophobia is ingrained into the fabric of societies worldwide. That's not my issue. My issue are the excuses people are making for this feeling. Not necessarily the feeling itself. But the refusal some here have in recognizing they do hold such a bias, and then the almost aggressive way some here defend said bias. Some posters here are NOT here to learn, to gain awareness, to build a bridge. They're here to defend their internalized homophobia. They're here to excuse it and tell us why it's not a big deal. They're here to tell us why it's not a problem. And that's what upsets me.
I totally agree, but the thing is, when you're starting from a point of "same-sex kissing between guys makes me have an episode" more or less, and then other posters chime in with "I agree" and "it's unnatural", the discussion has already started with an atmosphere that is not comfortable for non-heterosexual posters. It's already started with an atmosphere where people are more or less calling our love lives weird.........they're freaked out by it. That's not the way to begin a conversation if that's truly want you were seeking, a conversation. There are ways to express your feelings in an honest yet less insensitive way. | |
I don't know. This just feels like a massive case of everyone arguing passed each other... One side is arguing that they aren't bigots for just feeling this way(not necessarily saying it's not an irrational reaction that just needs to be overcome) and the other side is saying that it is bigotry to say its perfectly acceptable to being biased against gays. The arguments are both sides are making are correct but I don't know if anyone here is actually holding either of the opposed views. Or at least not anyone worth having an actual conversation with. Think this is just a big experiment in mixed messages and overreaction. And I would also agree that the OP was rather blunt, and tactless wording. I can understand how that caused a lot of initial warning signs. | |
I, too, find two women making out, regardless of their sexuality, sexy, basically because I love women. If I were to see two guys make out as passionately as women do, I would probably look away, because I'm not attracted to men. I don't believe that it is homophobic to find something that gay people of your gender unappealing. I have talked to a lot of straight women that say that they find women making out really disgusting and find guys making out very appealing. It could also be about camaraderie. When you think about hanging out with people of the same gender as you, you picture them doing things that they would enjoy doing and sexual, passionate activities with the same gender is usually not one of them. Some people might argue that some women might kiss or make out with one another, but not always; and if so, it is not always for sexual gratification. Women are generally more emotional and open with other women. | |
True, but let's get back to the start then... seeing two people of the same sex kissing on the street. I come from a country where homosexuality is not usually displayed in public. When it is, there's almost a sympathetic view of it, a sign that my country has shred her communist past. People are curious and if they have an opposite stance, they just shut up or mumble to themselves. They are not used to seeing this and you can bet your fanny that they'll tweet it to all their friends and talk about it for weeks. But is it legal to kiss in public? Sure, and why not? Just because some people find it disgusting is not the important issue, which is in my previous post I tried to comfort the OP. Some people find breastfeeding in public disgusting. Some people find french kissing in public disgusting. I agree somewhat with all of them. We do have certain unwritten rules of public behavior. Breaking them shouldn't land anyone in jail or attract insults or rotten food thrown at them. But they should be aware that not everything they do in public is "accepted" and just roll with it. I don't understand the gay point of view of this, regardless of the vague picture Flyboy painted in this thread. You can't decide what other people think, in this or other matters. Drawing their contempt is part of the game of being different. And as long as laws protect you from direct insults or acts of violence, where's the problem? How is being gay any different from cheering for the Arsenal team in the Manchester pub? Sure, anyone should be able to cheer for whatever they want, but in the real world you have to deal with reality and be a bit more socially responsible. | |
The many reactions here remind me of a moment I had last week. I was standing in line for a night club, and I saw further up in line two guys start making out. And at that moment I thought, I haven't actually seen this before. How fucking sheltered is that? I mean, really, I noticed that? I felt awkward at my reaction (I have a similar one when seeing uncommon ethnicities. It's a double take of awkward-"That's something odd." "That's weird that I think that's odd.". I've got plenty of gay friends and the like, but I'd never actually seen this (I'd seen girls making out in clubs, but that's not exactly the same). It's almost a test of how convinced of your own convictions you really are. And then I got the fuck over it. Walking down the street I'll see fat people stuffed into clothing they can't pull off, dog crap on the sidewalk, children shrieking and pestering their parents, wannabe tough guy bogans posturing with their pants down their ankles. On the list of things that could potentially make me uncomfortable, two people showing affection, neither of whom I personally would choose to make out with, is pretty low down my list. Thinking about it at all makes me ashamed. Why should it be that this is seen as any different? As someone who's gotten used to being glared at by large segments of the population (I've chosen to believe it's because they're intellectually inferior) because they don't like some aspect of my appearance, I know not which (Although I've turned it into an amusing game where I scare old people. I'm classy like that), it strikes me as disgusting behaviour to consider it disgusting. It's just more ostracisation. And, I'm sure ostracisation is something well known in our geeky, nerdy, gamer circles. Perpetuating it against a different group, when we so often cling proudly to our ostracised underground self-image would be the height of hypocrisy. Oh, and the other people in line at the club? I was suprised. No-one seemed to react at all. | |
Honestly, it's more of an almost prudishness than anything else. People who consider light kissing or light displays of affection sexual. That more or less has to be it, because I don't believe, everyone with this mentality is anti-gay. But if you take a basic display of affection and your mind interprets it in a sexual manner, then you're going to more or less make the connection of 2 guys/girls/guy and girl kissing=lustful, sexual, interpersonal activity. I don't see it that way, at all. I separate basic affection from making out. I wouldn't turn away from seeing a man and woman make out or two women making out. Not at all, because it's not inherently disgusting or ugly to watch. But I wouldn't search for it, either, because it's not what I'm into. It's understandable to find it unappealing if you're not attracted to the two people kissing for whatever reason. There are many different lines like hot and heavy kissing vs light affection, finding affection between X group unappealing vs finding affection between X group disgusting, only finding X group disgusting but no problem with other groups. I'm not attracted to two women fucking, I've never much liked straight porn, but thinking about it doesn't make me gag or anything. I mean, lets be honest...........there is a reason when people condemn "homosexuality", it's gay and bisexual men who get the brunt of the hate. Part of it is patriarchy and misogyny in general; women are taken less seriously in society. But a lot of it is that people think of ANAL AND ORAL SEX when they think of two guys having sex. They're not thinking "awwwww" or "that's cute/charming/etc." and more "OMG!" When you think of a guy, people tend to think burly, muscle, dicks, hair, masculinity. Men aren't supposed to be the sexy ones, women are. Men aren't to be sexualized, and a lot of men hate being sexualized. Men aren't supposed to be the emotive ones, or the ones to be vulnerable. Behind every good man is a great woman, as the quote goes, women are the prize in our society (almost like a shiny toy, which is misogyny in itself). The thought of two guys together is a lot less "soft" than a man and woman and two women, solely because there is no female factor involved. It's more raw, it's more abrasive, and thus I think it's a lot harder for people to wrap their heads around. At least many straight men and some straight women. Hell, even some lesbians. It's simply a completely different concept that throws out pretty much all societal gender norms. With that being said, as I've said before...........there are too many people straight M/straight W/lesbian women who just don't care to excuse that way of thinking. It's understandable but it's not OK. I think that's why so many straight girls do like to watch two guys making out, they find it thrilling. It's edgy, because it goes 100% against what a man is "supposed" to do. Things that are edgy always cause controversy. The problem is, it shouldn't be edgy in the first place to kiss a man if you're a man. | |
Say's the guy who went on a hetrophoebic and sexist rant stating essentially that they believe strait men enjoy a power complex over women and control their partners, to the extent that some gay men "fear" being treated how a strait man would treat women, an essentially that women are weak and easy victims. An then does not even explain themselves when challenged? Seriously respond! your rightly bashing some people who do hold deeply offensive veiws. Say something deeply offensive then, have the gaul to ignore it an carry on like you st peter. " gay community for being angry at the fact we're still looked at like mutants who are constantly trashed on, daily, with absolutely zero sense of sensitivity or understanding " where exactly do you live where bashing on the gay community is so rampant? because no experience with ANY of the gay people I have held as friends has EVER been treated like this. It's mainly isolated incidents. To which any decent people around have promptly told the people involved to "***k off." An I live in a heavily laddish culture, football, pubs, motorsport and rock & metal music, yet still none of these circles have I ever witnessed, heard, experienced in anyway homophobia in such a rampant way your describing, an none of my friends who happen to be gay have ever had trouble fitting in within them. Where ever it is sounds like backwards town if that's how it is. "we've grown up in a homophobic world" seriously where on earth do you live!? | |
OK, here is the problem with what you're saying. You're saying that people who are gay should essentially "deal with" being looked down upon.....for something they cannot control. And for doing the same exact thing that everyone else is doing. That isn't true freedom, because legal rights don't necessarily mean social rights are equal. Social rights clearly are not equal because socially people are more or less given a big fat NO for showing affection towards their same-sex partner if they are a guy. That is not equality. That is not freedom. And the "feelings" that people have do NOT come before the right people have to live their lives in peace, with full freedom to be who they are without persecution. Being gay isn't a choice, and cheering for a rival football team at your opponents' bar is. One is an intentional display of defiance, an intentional act meant to cause problems. The other is, well, it just is. Gay people are who we are. And that's about it. Same-sex kissing............just is. The same way opposite-sex kissing is, simply, something that people who are attracted to one another do. No-one is asking to be able to make out down the street but one shouldn't feel intimidated to hold their partners' hand or give them a peck on the cheek, and silent hostility is not much better than open bigotry. Social responsibility entails realizing that there are more than just straight people walking this Earth, respecting that, accepting that, and allowing people to be who they are with absolutely no judgment. That's social responsibility, social harmony, and being a decent human being that genuinely believes in equality. | |
Seriously you seem to have thee most stereotyped views of heterosexual couples I've ever seen! You've totally miss-interpreted that quote, its not meant to be derogatory its meant to champion the strength of women, their ability to empathize and understand in a way many men do find hard, their ability to be thoughtful and supportive, their ability that for 100's of year went unnoticed as very equal partners in their relationships working with their partners to achieve great things in a world that for a great deal of time refused to recognize their equal standing. "women are the prize in our society (almost like a shiny toy, which is misogyny in itself)." I have forever been told: An I'm not by anyone's measure a social pariah or a virgin, so god knows what it's like for those poor barstards. In my experience society has told me every single time "women are in control of this game, not both of you" "cater to their needs" " prove yourself" I know it's not the same for everybody, but again your demanding unflinching correctness and then making mass assumptions. | |
1) Straight men do enjoy a power complex over women. In society. That's patriarchy in a nutshell. 2) Straight men do enjoy a power complex over gay men. In society. That's heterosexism in a nutshell. 3) Straight men can fuck 50 women and be called a player, a woman fucks 5 guys and she's a whore. That's power complex. 4) Women and gay men are victims of this power structure and have been abused and are being abused daily by it. It's not a purely sexual thing. It's a societal thing. A lot of gay men are threatened by straight guys because a lot of straight guys DO go out of their way to exert their superiority over gay men, anytime they can. And over LGBTQ people in general. 5) It's not heterophobia to be honest. If you're a straight male and in (most) situations not an open Atheist, you are off the bat privileged compared to others and that's something you can't help. But don't ever act like you're some sort of victim, because you're not, and I'm not going to pretend that you are to protect your feelings.
It's not offensive to call people privileged when they are privileged by simply existing.
Good for them. You don't know their entire life history, though. You don't know what may or may not have happened to them when you're not around them. LGBTQ hate crimes are the ONLY classification of hate crimes rising worldwide. LGBTQ citizens are 2-3 times more likely to be assaulted in hate crimes.
True. It's isolated incident after isolated incident for a lot of us. Which takes a toll. It's easy to brush a few off here and there. Repeated incidents are not so easy to brush off. When 40% of society hates you, that is not easy to brush off.
Consider yourself lucky. There are parts of the UK that are good, and there are parts of the UK that are atrocious. Just like anywhere else. Hate exists everywhere.
The only Earth there is. | |
The problem with the quote is two-sided. There are plenty of strong men who either aren't attracted to women, aren't in relationships with women, didn't have a great relationship with their mothers and have lived more or less on their own their entire lives.............A man doesn't NEED a woman to be strong. A woman doesn't NEED a man to be an empowered individual. I mean, totally, I see how the quote is meant to champion the strength of women and personally if women find strength in it, that's great. But I don't see it that way because it promotes this idea that one needs the other to be successful in live. And it ignores same-sex couples.
Boo hoo. You're not a rockstar in any way for the sex you were born.
That's all more sexism and misogyny. Which goes back to my entire point. Our society is sick on many levels. I'm sorry you've been pressured into being something you're not. Our society puts too much emphasis on arbitrary views of what it means to be a "real man" or "real woman" instead of simply allowing people to be themselves and be comfortable in their own skin without worrying about adhering to such rigid stereotypes.
Straight men definitely have their expectations of them and but also have a LOT more wiggle room compared to women. That is simply undeniable. I mean, paying a bill and pulling out a chair just doesn't compare to what women are more or less enforced to do, and not just in select circumstances, but throughout every minute of their lives.
Actually, the whole "cater to their needs" thing is MISOGYNY. It's stating women are weak. And then women can't take care of themselves. And that they need a man. Which puts pressure on men. It all begins and ends with misogynistic societal standards. And it all ends up with men being seen as the strong ones, and the protectors, the go getters, the "strong" ones. Physical sex has nothing to do with any of that.
I'm not making assumptions. I just have a different worldview than you do :) | |
Yes yes yes. This in a nutshell. | |
okay, my personal opinion here. if you do automatically think "eww i don't want to see that" when seeing A guy kiss another guy? then so what? where is the issue? i may sound like a jerk for this, but i really don't like the way society today demands that you have to be 100% politically correct even in your thoughts. | |
Okay, my personal opinion here. If you do automatically think "eww i don't want to see that" when seeing a Jew kiss another Jew? Then so what? Where is the issue? I may sound like a jerk for this, but I really don't like the way society today demands that you have to be 100% accepting of all groups. Some groups are disgusting and I'm entitled to feel that way!
Problem #1. It actually is *not* acceptable to hold a negative bias towards an entire group of people for no legitimate reason, and essentially solely for who they are. That is *not* OK. And it is *not* PC to expect people to NOT defend holding negative biases. Silent condemnation isn't something to be proud of. At all. You don't get a pat on the back for it. You still hold the negative attitudes. It's those negative individual attitudes that contribute to negative societal attitudes, which leads to negative societal actions.
Somebody told you wrong if you think all view points are equally valid.
Problem #2. No-one is telling you what you HAVE to think. What is being said, however, is that, at the end of the day, not all ways of thinking are acceptable ways of thinking. Expressing them publicly or not doesn't mean that viewpoint suddenly becomes acceptable. It's not acceptable. It's wrong. You're entitled to your opinions, and others are entitled to call you out for them. And if those opinions are clearly biased or wrong, that's what they will be labeled. Obviously, in our society, homophobia is increasingly being seen as wrong, and that's what it is. So if you choose negative views against gay people, you're in the wrong, and you're going to be called wrong. No different than holding negative views towards people because of their race, religion or gender. | |
okay i agree 95% on what you are saying here. and lets be clear i wrote "if i think that..." because it was easier. no i am not homosexual, or any group that gets treated badly. and i can never claim to ever know what its like to be discriminated against. nothing i have experienced has ever came close to the way Homosexuals are treated by many. and i have argued many times with my Father for what i see as him being homophobic. so we cool dude? | |
Yes, we're cool! And I see what you're saying, I will respond in more detail tomorrow :) I'm too tired to focus right now (sickness getting in the way lol). But in short, no, a person isn't automatically bad for holding a view that isn't necessarily........commendable. It's not the person that's evil, or wrong, they're just a human and we all have our flaws. It's their thought process regarding whatever issue in question being discussed (sexuality, race, etc.) that's in error. I respect those who don't impose their views on others. | |
Oh and I hope you didn't think I was categorically calling you a homophobe. I was speaking in generalities. And flipping the arguments made to hold biased views against homosexuality and replacing it with, in this case, religion. In general, people don't make these arguments against religion, race or gender. We need to stop making them against sexual orientation. | |
101flyboy, I don't know man... you might be asking for too much too soon. Depending on where you live, gays either have the same rights as anybody else, or they're hanged. Let's be thankful that at least we're moving forward from old mentalities. You're alive, and we can have this nice discussion. That's a big wow. Also not many people have yet uttered the "god hates you" nonsense, although clearly many of us here are homophobes (or anti-gay to put it mildly). It took 100 years for blacks to be able to drink from the same water as whites. And STILL there is a lot of racism, not just in the US, but more and more in countries which laughed at the US for their backwardness. Yet it only took you guys 50 or so years to be able to do a LOT of stuff unthinkable before. And as much as you dislike silent haters, it's them that made most of this possible. Their silence is acceptance. Unless they throw rocks at you or call you names on the street or picket the local square, these people have accepted gays. To call them homophobes or even hint that there's something not OK in their way of thinking is pushing it. You can't expect everything to change THAT fast. It will take generations upon generations to have children born in a world that sees gays as normal as vanilla icecream. These silent "haters" will most probably accept their gay children better than previous generations did. Plus, we love differences, especially ones that feed our love for contempt. Being football clubs (try telling a big fan that he has a "choice"...), the color of our skin, how much we weigh, what color our hair has, etc. etc. etc. people will ALWAYS find themselves in either a majority (which of course holds itself superior), or a minority (which might also always have to deal with the hipster issues of being different from the rest). There will always be racists, antisemites, active homophobes and the rest of the bigotry lot. That's why I said you should just "deal with it". Maybe future generations will have to deal with it less and less. On the other hand, yes I feel for you. Not being able to hold the hand of your soul-mate because people might get offended around you must suck big time. My previous football club example was close but... you're always living in that Manchester fan pub so... yeah. Thinking back at my previous gripe with not being able to calmly say "you're wrong" without being labeled in a negative way, that surely cannot compare with the frustration you feel at the types of "you're wrong" that you get. I'm starting to understand now... a little. I doubt I'd understand more without being gay myself. But still, try to cherish the little victories. Try asking one of the old guys how it was for them 20 or so years ago. If so many people can say "wtf happened to society's good family values in the last 20 years?!!", surely that's a good sign, right? I mean if true homophobes have begun to feel threatened and abandoned (hence their increased desperate activism) surely that means you're winning the war, right? Maybe you can't be truly free, but... actually while writing this crap sentence I realized I had to stop... Guess i'm starting to understand just a tiny little more... I've been talking about gays in a vague 3'd person way but since I'm now talking to a human being such as myself, that kind-of changes the perspective, doesn't it? Sorry, i'm vague and tired, so I might not make much sense... I just feel like my rusty empathy cogs have noisily started to turn just a bit. And I've just realized I've never felt empathy for gays before. Wow... I guess I've just found my definition for homophobe. Maybe somebody less tired can put it in better words. | |
Okay, let me start off by saying that since I'm posting in this thread, I'm (apparently) homophobic since I've been inclined to respond. I'm a white straight male (went through a small stage of bicuriosity) 20 years old. I'm disabled, as a lot of you people probably know, and as much as people think I'm flaunting it or looking for sympathy, I'm not. I know what homosexuals are going through to a small extent. I knew friends who were gay, I have friends who are gay (hold back the bile...) This was what homophobia was like to me. Did I support them? Yes, one of them was my best friends, of course I would. You'd probably think I'd have gay pride flags just hanging off me wouldn't you? Being so close to the prejudice my friend was feeling? Sure, I could still be quite fond of gay people had I not let my 'trauma' get to me. But in the end, sometimes it's cultural, sometimes it's societal. I understand how you want acceptance, to lower the hate and such, having Cerebral Palsy gives you a delightful stigma as well (doubly so if you're quiet). But by trying to say that somewhat can tolerate something, but not accept it is wrong, and that they're wrong, aren't you doing to them what they're doing to you? | |
That's not what I said at all. I know that men get raped. But you're not a woman and you haven't been socialised as one. Society has been speaking to you differently than it has been speaking to women. It's called socialisation, and it's different for men and women. I'm not saying you can't comprehend the experience, I'm saying society tells women things that it doesn't tell you (and viceversa) and the experience of being a woman in Western society is different than the experience of being a man. That gives women information that men do not possess (and viceversa), which is why I consider it unwise to speak categorically about the experiences of the opposite gender when they possess information about themselves that I don't. It's much like speaking about a field you're not an expert in. If you're a mechanic, it's unwise to make categorical statements about physiology, for example, and if you're a doctor, it's unwise to make categorical statements about carburators. It's okay to abstain from having an opinion, you know. You don't have to have an opinion on absolutely everything. I certainly don't.
The problem you're missing is that you think that's all we get too. If that were the case, I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but we don't. We don't just get judged on our sexual orientation, gender or skin colour. Marginalised people get judged and then they have to face consequences because of that judgement. That's what you're missing. I judge you and that's it. You walk away and your life's completely unchanged. People like you judge people like me and we can't adopt, marry, do hospital visits, we get hate speech and hate crimes. That's why I am not buying a single thing you're saying. I said it before and I will say it again: it's extremely easy for you to lecture me about prejudice from your comfortable position with full rights under the law and no risk of hate crimes, hate speech or the like.
Ignoring the people who aren't willing to listen doesn't help at all. It leaves them unchecked to keep spewing their bigotry about and convincing the people willing to listen (that would have otherwise listened to you), then they build up from each other to a mob effect. I have no problems with the way you do things and I wouldn't criticise your methods. I ask you politely that you do the same.
I have no problem with subtle homophobia so long as it doesn't build up. I understand that the low-grade stuff isn't going to change anytime soon and trying to correct every single instance of it when there are larger problems at stake is a waste of resources. Keeping it in check to avoid a Sarkeesian-like disaster? That's another thing altogether. | |
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I never said I wasn't prejudiced. I am, I will readily admit it. But my kind never beat up a straight person for being straight, or committed any hate crimes against a straight majority. As such, I reserve the right to remain prejudiced until the playing field is levelled. What I have against you is a butter knife. My words of prejudice cannot harm you in any way. What your kind has against mine is more like a broadsword. When we're both duelling with butter knives, I will probably make an effort to stop being prejudiced, but I doubt it will happen within my lifetime.