should teacher-student love be a crime?
yes if the student is in high school
36.1% (109)
36.1% (109)
yes if the student is 15 or youner
6% (18)
6% (18)
no if the student is 16 or older
23.2% (70)
23.2% (70)
of course not, high schoolers are perfectly good lovers and life partners
8.6% (26)
8.6% (26)
hell yes, you sick pedo. somebody think of the children
25.8% (78)
25.8% (78)
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Poll: why can't students love their teachers?

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Devoneaux:

Katatori-kun:

krazykidd:

I like how every other post say that teacher are the ones doing the seducing , but not one mentions the possibility that the student is capable of seducing the teacher . As if teachers are immune to seduction or student are incapable of seducing a teacher . It's Always the teachers fault isn't it .

Yes. Because the teacher is the professional adult. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for who you touch with your private bits. If you say, "I can't help it, they seduced me!" then you're not an adult- you're a child in an adult's body.

That's really just an argument of semantics though.

The more correct way of putting it would be to say that they are not a responsible or reasonable adult.

I vote yes, mainly because of the implications of the profession, even barring any normal morality, it causes certain breaks in the level of professionalism in the environment of the classroom, and hell the school entirely. Same reason I don't think it's a good idea to have sex with a co-worker, and think that having any form of relationship at that level with an employer is just out of the question.

Because it's a prime set up for:

-Statutory rape
-Blackmail
-Pedophilia
-Taking advantage of authority
-Academic bribing
-Academic dishonesty

And rather than wading through all that just in case it's a rare exception for all of the above, it's easier and smarter just to say "don't do it, you sickos".

What, are you also annoyed that people look down on porking the boss? There's reasons (glaringly obvious ones) why that's a faux pas.

No, it shouldn't be illegal to have student-teacher relationships. (My thoughts concerning age are best kept for a different conversation.) If the student is still under the care of their parents/legal guardians, then they should have a say in the matter.

Yes, if there is enough evidence of favoritism (like skewed grades) because of the relationship, there should be consequences. Not jailtime, but something.

Devoneaux:

Katatori-kun:

krazykidd:

I like how every other post say that teacher are the ones doing the seducing , but not one mentions the possibility that the student is capable of seducing the teacher . As if teachers are immune to seduction or student are incapable of seducing a teacher . It's Always the teachers fault isn't it .

Yes. Because the teacher is the professional adult. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for who you touch with your private bits. If you say, "I can't help it, they seduced me!" then you're not an adult- you're a child in an adult's body.

That's really just an argument of semantics though.

How on earth can you possibly construe this as an argument of semantics? I teach adults. I promise you if I got caught having a relationship with one of my students and tried to defend myself with, "But she seduced me!" the only thing that would change would be my department would laugh at me as they toss my ass out the door instead of just angrily tossing my ass out the door.

geK0:
The more correct way of putting it would be to say that they are not a responsible or reasonable adult.

I was intentionally phrasing it with a little flair because I find the notion put forward by some people that men are incapable of controlling their sexual impulses to be particularly insulting.

It's the authority. It's a powerful coercive force, one that borderlines on rape, regardless of age.

vgmaster831:

krazykidd:

vgmaster831:

Teachers are expected as part of their job to resist such seduction attempts. Just as a psychologist would be expected not to be seduced by their patient while the patient is in their care. Having such a relationship with a minor, even when the minor initiates it, is considered statutory rape and is illegal.

Also, it's kind of arrogant (and a little rude) to say that your opinion, formed by experience and preference, is just common sense. The fact that this thread exists and that most people disagree with you makes it kind of obvious that it is not common sense.

The problem is that rape is a capital crime, and it's not actually the victim or the parents prosecuting the rapist, it's the state. Changing that precedent could lead to people not getting prosecuted after committing really heinous crimes for a variety of reasons.

I never said under aged , i just said students . College and university students also apply , it is just as high school students , please don't put words in my mouth . Also , and i understand this may not have been obvious from what i wrote so it's my fault , but by common sense , i didn't mean that i was right or that everyone things like me , but that as thinking as an average(common) person , without putting all the different factors together , i came up with that response . Basically while thinking as an average joe ,rather than someone of importance.

My point about professionals being expected to not have relations with students still stands. I wouldn't want to attend a school were that is allowed, and if I ran a school, I wouldn't tolerate it. It leads to favoritism and can often (but not always) lead to one party taking advantage of another.

Okay, i agree , but that's in a perfect world . It shouldn't happen . But sometimes it does . And i don't have a problem with it , as long as, the student isn't in the class of the professor . Just because a person is a teacher of an institution and another is a student of an institution , doesn't mean , in my opinion , they shouldn't date , as long they aren't in the same class . Just as a a psychologist should never treat a person they know , a teacher shouldn't date someone they are personally teaching.

spartan231490:
It's the authority. It's a powerful coercive force, one that borderlines on rape, regardless of age.

Let's not take things to extremes.

True story: In one year of university I totally had the hots for my TA. I never approached her for a relationship (because I didn't want to create a situation where she could get into trouble), but if I had, and she had accepted, and we had a relationship, it wouldn't have been anything remotely like rape.

It would have been unprofessional and inappropriate, sure. But not rape.

Personally, I don't really care if a teacher is banging their students.

Likely, the student wouldn't do it if they weren't into it. And the statutory rape age line has always just felt aburtary to me and shouldn't exist.

Katatori-kun:

Devoneaux:

Katatori-kun:

Yes. Because the teacher is the professional adult. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for who you touch with your private bits. If you say, "I can't help it, they seduced me!" then you're not an adult- you're a child in an adult's body.

That's really just an argument of semantics though.

How on earth can you possibly construe this as an argument of semantics? I teach adults. I promise you if I got caught having a relationship with one of my students and tried to defend myself with, "But she seduced me!" the only thing that would change would be my department would laugh at me as they toss my ass out the door instead of just angrily tossing my ass out the door.

geK0:
The more correct way of putting it would be to say that they are not a responsible or reasonable adult.

I was intentionally phrasing it with a little flair because I find the notion put forward by some people that men are incapable of controlling their sexual impulses to be particularly insulting.

You're jumping to conclusions here, i'm not saying I disagree with you, but suggesting that any professional that enters in a romantic relationship with a patient/student/what have you is really just a child just strikes me as a poor counter point. Are you suggesting that adults don't have weaknesses? That adults don't do things they regret later in life? Do you completely deny that some people may do foolish things under a specific set of circumstances? I guess "semantics" was the wrong word, what I should have said is something to the ring of "Absolutist".

Devoneaux:
Are you suggesting that adults don't have weaknesses? That adults don't do things they regret later in life?

Not at all. I'm saying what separates adults from children is that adults are responsible for their choices. So regardless of if they have some kind of weakness or not, they are responsible for who they choose to have relationships with.

krazykidd:

Twilight_guy:
Well with younger kids its statutory rape, which is illegal. With older kids its inappropriate because it creates a very personal relationship in a situation that should be a far more professional relationship. In addition, there is a worry that the teacher is using his position of power and authority to seduce the student.

I like how every other post say that teacher are the ones doing the seducing , but not one mentions the possibility that the student is capable of seducing the teacher . As if teachers are immune to seduction or student are incapable of seducing a teacher . It's Always the teachers fault isn't it .

OT: i think as long as it isn't YOUR student it should be okay. If it's just a student at the school , or the student is no longer in your class it's fine . But then again that's just me , and i only use common sense .

Generally speaking the notable situations are where a student is a teenager and the teacher is an adult in there 30s. Teachers are educated people and I think the general consensus is if a teacher gets seduced by a teenager, despite the knowledge that it will flush their career down the toilet and its illegal, then the teacher is an idiot. It runs a similar vein to how pedophiles are responsible because they are older and wiser and nobody suspects the child.

Also, "It's Always the teachers fault" is a statement that immediately makes me go into a blind rage. My mother is a teacher and I hear a lot of crap about the job. That phrase is not associated with good things.

I think the problem with teachers being an authority figure still applies even if its only a child at the school and your not your student. Teachers are still authorities at their school even if they aren't teaching a students class.

Also, this thread probably needs to also note that it isn't just teachers who get in trouble. Any school faculty who has a relationship with a student gets in trouble. It'd be a scandal even if it was just the lunch-lady or a proctor.

As far as I'm concerned a teacher-student relationship is mutually exclusive with a romantic relationship.

All the reasons have pretty much already been said so not really much more to add.

In the case the student is a minor I consider it criminal, it's statutory rape.
In the case the student is not it's still amoral and in my opinion good grounds to fire someone, no jail-time should be served for it though.

I feel that this song is relevant to this topic and thread:

vgmaster831:
...

Imperator_DK:
Well, power balance have already been mentioned as the reason.

There's no reason it couldn't be adapted to become a closer fit to that reasoning though, by ensuring that prosecution could only take place with the consent of the victim's legal guardians. That way, power would remain with the student/parents, while the government would not be forcing itself into the bedrooms of student/teacher relationships which all parties concerned were perfectly fine with.

The problem is that rape is a capital crime, and it's not actually the victim or the parents prosecuting the rapist, it's the state. Changing that precedent could lead to people not getting prosecuted after committing really heinous crimes for a variety of reasons.

Then define a consensual student/teacher relationship as something else - in a different penal code article - and make prosecution under that article subject to student approval.

16 in my country is the age, I think. And I really see no reason why a teacher couldn't have a relationship with a student. How is it our business anyway?

High school teacher here: female teacher in an all-boys school.
This brings the logical consequences you can imagine.

So I'll bring my points here:

1) no teacher should be interested in looking for love among his/her students. Yes, they may be 18, but they're still kids in their minds and behaviour, compared to you.

2) if you do end up falling for a student, if you two really, truly love each other (because 99% of the times students are just attracted to the teacher figure, but it's not a lasting, real love).... the rule should be as simple as this: "wait until your graduation. Then we'll fuck". Doesn't seem difficult if it's real love.

Really, as a teacher I can say that any colleague who'd flirt with a student is a loser and unfit for their profession.

Its a crime because if it were allowed people could be pressured into stuff at threat of being failed, or being promised good grades and stuff. Also with underage kids its a crime anyway. If they aren't at least 18 then the teacher is a pedophile too.

As a teacher, I wouldn't get into a relationship with a student for several reasons, besides the fact that it's in the Code of Conduct.

1) Issues of favouritism (how could you really prove otherwise?)
2) Potential for abuse of authority.
3) Break-ups can be nasty enough without having to then come in and teach.
4) Students become almost like your own children.

Oh yeah, and I teach primary school, so that rules that *right* out!

But yes. Mostly, as others have said, it's the fact that you're in a position of power and authority over your students, and they can be quite susceptible to you. Once they are of legal age, and not in your duty of care, then you can see whether any attraction might be real.

Same reason a sergeant can get demoted and forcibly moved across the world for fucking a junior member of his or her squad... already covered in the thread.

Age restrictions are of course dependent on local culture and law (I've been places where even particularly ugly sixteen year olds have had more sex than your average american married couple of ten years), but not banging your subordinates is a much more fundamental rule, designed to curtail some of the darker parts of human nature.

krazykidd:

I like how every other post say that teacher are the ones doing the seducing , but not one mentions the possibility that the student is capable of seducing the teacher . As if teachers are immune to seduction or student are incapable of seducing a teacher . It's Always the teachers fault isn't it .
.

Teachers are ADULTS...they really should know better, the 16 year old teenager wants to have sex with you? as from that being a BAD Idea your not going to convince anyone you simply couldnt controll yourself theres this quote from the movie Hard Candy

Who? The pedophiles! 'Oh, she was so sexy. She was asking for it.' 'She was only technically a girl, she acted like a woman.' It's just so easy to blame a kid, isn't it! Just because a girl knows how to imitate a woman, does NOT mean she's ready to do what a woman does. I mean, you're the grown up here. If a kid is experimenting and says something flirtatious, you ignore it, you don't encourage it! If a kid says 'Hey, let's make screwdrivers!' You take the alcohol away, and you don't race them to the next drink!
Share this quote

not quite exact in terms of context but yeah

Well the age gap for one is a big difference, the poll includes high school so the age gap there is trememendous. Same goes for college, but at least the students there are true young adults who have enough sense to know what they truly want, sort of.... Can't say that for high school.

Other problem is pretty damn obvious, grades man grades. Hell students who are the least bit receptive of a teacher are designated teacher's pets, kiss asses, etc. I don't even want to fathom what it's like for fucking a teacher rumor or not. The teacher is the one who gets stuck in shit in the end, if he or she attempts to balance the grades with the romance the student might call him/her out on it, if the said teacher is lucky for a true romance where the student understands that screwing doesn't justify better grades out of the box, then teacher still has to worry about getting fired, reputation invariable getting pushed down the gutter.

So the way I see it most people pity the student, I pity the teacher because they have everything to lose, a student doesn't.

There is also the fact that the brain hasn't developed fully till the late teens and you aren't fully capable of understanding the consequences of such actions. As the adult, the teacher is expected to understand this and not abuse this knowledge, nor the power imbalance which everyone has mentioned.

Katatori-kun:

spartan231490:
It's the authority. It's a powerful coercive force, one that borderlines on rape, regardless of age.

Let's not take things to extremes.

True story: In one year of university I totally had the hots for my TA. I never approached her for a relationship (because I didn't want to create a situation where she could get into trouble), but if I had, and she had accepted, and we had a relationship, it wouldn't have been anything remotely like rape.

It would have been unprofessional and inappropriate, sure. But not rape.

Yeah, because the authority a college TA has over you is identical to the authority a high school teacher has over you. And the maturity you have in dealing with that authority when you're in college is identical to the maturity you have in dealing with it in college.

Snide me being an asshole aside(sorry, I just can't resist the chance to be sarcastic), I actually agree with you. It's nothing like rape as we usually think of it, but it's still coercion and it's still wrong for that reason.

The Night Angel:
You just don't sleep with someone you in any way hold a position of power over.

This, right here. If a teacher is sleeping with his/her student, there's always the constant threat of 'I can destroy your grade' hanging over the student's head, regardless of whether it's been explicitly stated or not.

Captcha: The cat lady. I don't really think that's any better. :p

lord's voken:
Every so often you'll hear about some teacher or NFL cheerleader getting throw in jail cause she made love to high school student somewhere. my question is though, why is this even a crime? i read a story once about a 24 year old teacher getting jail time for sleeping with her 21 year old student. I'm not saying that i want to see people sleeping with 13 old kids, thats gross. but when a person becomes oh 16, 17 and they getting to be horny as all get out, what should it matter how much older their lover is or even if its their teacher?

who hasn't wanted to date one of their teachers going up? i just dont understand what all the hallo unboo is about. maybe its cause that being 22 years old have only dated women 10-18 years older than me, that im not understanding this. It wasnt all that long ago that people used to get married at 15, 16 years old. if its consensual and no party is manipulating the other, then just treat it like every other relationship. no one should be doing jail time for who they love. there is nothing about this may december relationship that automatically make them wrong.

ps yes, the teachers shouldnt abuse their power but that also applies to every other case as well.

because a teacher is there to teach you and evaluate how good your skills and capacity to learn in general are and where to foster you, if you should have problems to meet certain standards.

and this "evaluation" process gets heavily influenced when someone start fucking someone else.
simple as that.

teachers are ment to threat everyone equal and get them as good as they can on par with the others. and they should avoid being influenced when making decisions.

you do know the concept of Sex For Favors and favouritising?

Teachers and students are just that: teachers and students.

It's wrong because either side can be manipulated in any way, shape, or form. Even if there is a mutual attraction between two consenting adults, within the given parameters, there are always suspicions and risks that this can go sour very quickly.

If the two want to pursue a relationship after one or both have left the educational institution, then that is perfectly fine (if they are into that). Otherwise, it's inappropriate.

lord's voken:
Every so often you'll hear about some teacher or NFL cheerleader getting throw in jail cause she made love to high school student somewhere. my question is though, why is this even a crime? i read a story once about a 24 year old teacher getting jail time for sleeping with her 21 year old student.

What really? That's happened? I'm mean sure the High School teacher sleeping with the 13 year old student is definitely worth jail time, but a 24 and a 21 year old? That's seems odd. I mean sure it brings into question the Teacher's integrity and is probably a violation of professional etiquette, but they're both consenting adults so that should hardly be worth jail time. As long as they're both consenting I don't see a problem, aside from the afor mentioned integrity and professional etiquette that is.

There are basically three different situations where this applies:

A) Adult has sex with a minor under the age of consent: this is illegal for obvious reasons, so it doesn't matter how willing the minor is, he legally cannot give consent.
B) Adult has sex with minor over the age of consent: this might be legal, but it takes on a predatory tone as the position of authority over the minor (along with the adult/minor age difference) puts severe pressure on the student to do as the teacher says. This can easily lead to coerced consent. It may also be against the local law or the local school regulations.
C) Adult has sex with another adult: here you also have the coerced consent thing, but it's not as severe as the previous case. However, it can also be against local laws or school regulations.

Basically, the crux of the matter is coerced consent. While the student might be giving consent, the situation surrounding the relationship might be such that significant pressure is put on the student to give such consent. For example, if I'm a student and a teacher makes a pass at me, I will feel at a tremendous disadvantage, as the teacher can "get back at me" for my rejection by destroying my grade in perfectly justifiable ways, and if I try to levy a case of sexual harassment, it's likely that the school administration will side with the teacher when there is an absence of evidence, since students are notoriously immature, petty, mischievous and clearly not above fabricating such accusations for their own ends. And likewise, teachers are known by the school staff as respectable, trustworthy, level-headed and professional, so it takes very solid evidence to convince them otherwise. So if I, the student, knows this, when the teacher makes a pass at me, I have to choose between getting my grades destroyed (and potentially losing things like scholarships or getting into the college/grad school/etc they want, which in turn will end up shaping the rest of their lives) or having sex with them. That is coerced consent. I might end up giving consent, but it was similar to the consent I might give with a gun pointed at my head.

So when the school administration finds out about a student-teacher affair, even if the student wildly denies accusations of coercion, this pressure still exists, and the school administration just can't be sure. It's best to make blanket statements that forbid such relationships than doing extensive and awkward investigations to rule out coercion (which is not as easy as it sounds).

Teacher student can't work because of power balance issues. In college, you can bang a professor though, provided they are not responsible for grading you.

I have to laugh at the first poll option; "yes, if the student is in high school - then it's a crime". PRIMARY school on the other hand... =P

xmbts:
Because teachers are instructors and it's hard to retain professionalism with someone you're boinking, not mentioning that said boink-y would likely receive special treatment.

Kind of like how therapists can lose their license for getting too intimate with clients.

I won't say 16 or 17 year olds shouldn't be having sex but when it's with someone much older it's usually more them being taken advantage of rather than genuine affection.

This says it all fairly well not to mention the fact that teachers could abuse there position of power to take advantage of students who might not want to risk their future denying the advances. In the end it is all about professionalism as stated above.

Frission:
Because we have to set a limit and teacher's aren't supposed to fuck students? That teacher's may be preying on student's in these situations.

I thought threads like these had died.

Yes 18 is arbitrary. As arbitrary as 16 or 20 or 21. We must decide on a limit and we decided on 18. Deal with it.

EDIT:Not to mention the whole part about the power balance.

What he said.

Power balance is a thing, dude. And so is favoritism. And so is potentially psychologically screwing a kid up for life, messing with their ability to respect authority.

OK, so I think it should be forbidden, but not illegal. Serving time over this is stupid since consensual sex isn't a crime. A teacher shouldn't have to face time over this. However that teacher probably shouldn't be allowed to teach if this is discovered.

It's not a matter of paedophilia, but a matter of being in an authorial position. You are supposed to keep a professional position towards those you have under your authority. A boss having sex with his secretary is often considered abuse of position and I consider the teacher student relationship worse since the student isn't likely to be as experienced.

A teacher also has to grade a student and being objective is hard enough without the sexual relationship. Some teachers are likely to give grades because they like the student or want to support him/her. I know I have received some unfair grades that kept me from failing math because the teacher didn't want me to fail.

Even if it is legal, i.e. the student is over 16 and both parties consent, the school finding out will almost definately result in the teachers dismissal.

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