it's absolutely nothing like that. It's deeper..WAY deeper.
Glad to have confirmation. I just seem to lack the terminology to describe the why of it at the moment.
Sure :) Ya it's not "acting" anything, it's what I AM... I was born in the wrong body and i am just making efforts to change that mistake.
Being what you "are," at least somewhat includes your body. Which is still its original gender, aside from cosmetic tweaks. Let the hormone treatments run out, you'll see my point.
I am NOT saying people should NOT be transgender. I AM saying belief that you really have BECOME the opposite gender is not true. In reality, you have become a nonfunctional version of your original gender that resembles the opposite one. So no, it's not deeper. Yes, you are roleplaying. But that's perfectly ok, because it's what you truly feel you want to be. Also note, being "born in the wrong body" is probably too metaphysical a case to bring up in a medical argument.
Casual Shinji: Why do these transgender threads always exude this vibe that not being able to be physically attracted to every human being on the planet makes you a bad person?
I don't think anyone is saying that really, any one who does is rather silly. You can't force someone to be a attracted to trans people any more then a trans person can "just deal with it. No one should have to make apologies for their sexuality and that means heterosexuals too. However people go beyond that and add an unnecessary level of hostilely to their answers. I'll use yours as an example.
I'm sorry for everyone who feels trapped in the wong gender's physique, but to me if you're a guy then you're a guy. And I'm attracted to girls.
And there's more to it. I find people who have undergone heavy duty plastic surgery horribly unappealing. I wouldn't want to date a man who (surgically) became a woman anymore than I would want to date a woman who (surgically) became a man.
Yours was a relatively mild way of putting it, (relative to comparing it to cutting of dog faces, almost everything is mild) but your words still come off as telling transpeople they are delusional. That's the problem. Rather then saying something like "Its not something I could get past physically or sexually", many have to try and act like transpeople are lies in human form. That is the part that offends people, the idea that they are all delusional.
If we were both single ...... and in the same country (you live a bit far away to nip round for a coffee) i'd be all over you like a rash flower (but less itchy).
Depends on how he/she dealt with it. Being born with the wrong sex must have been a trauma, and I wouldn't date a depressed person. I probably feel a bit weird about it, but if he/she is happy with who he/she is and if he/she is a fun person to be around. Hey let's give it a shot
Glad to have confirmation. I just seem to lack the terminology to describe the why of it at the moment.
Sure :) Ya it's not "acting" anything, it's what I AM... I was born in the wrong body and i am just making efforts to change that mistake.
Being what you "are," at least somewhat includes your body. Which is still its original gender, aside from cosmetic tweaks. Let the hormone treatments run out, you'll see my point.
I am NOT saying people should NOT be transgender. I AM saying belief that you really have BECOME the opposite gender is not true. In reality, you have become a nonfunctional version of your original gender that resembles the opposite one. So no, it's not deeper. Yes, you are roleplaying. But that's perfectly ok, because it's what you truly feel you want to be. Also note, being "born in the wrong body" is probably too metaphysical a case to bring up in a medical argument.
incorrect. completely incorrect. My MIND, the chemistry of my brain are female. I am not roleplaying anything, I am a woman, it's for you to have an opinion, but do one minute of research... or not..ignorance is bliss.
rutger5000: Depends on how he/she dealt with it. Being born with the wrong sex must have been a trauma, and I wouldn't date a depressed person. I probably feel a bit weird about it, but if he/she is happy with who he/she is and if he/she is a fun person to be around. Hey let's give it a shot
Ya i was depressed most of my life, but since beginning transition I am a LOT happier... I am on the right track and finally being who i was supposed to be.
Nah, couldn't do it. Call me close-minded but if you have an expressed Y-chromosome then to me you are a male/man/guy/boy/dude/bro etc. I wouldn't mind being friends with any, but I just wouldn't be able to consider them an actual woman.
If they're attractive, yes. Attractive trans women (or even attractive transvestites, for that matter), that might blur the gender lines, are an incredible turn-on for me, not to mention that I admire their bravery and whatnot. I mean, I've never actually met a transgender individual in real-life, but they can't be that different from genetic women. They have a female brain, they have a female body, and the only difference is that they may not have a 100% natural vagina. But if it's functional, who the fuck cares? I have 0% desire to have children either, so that would be a bonus too.
Of course, if they have a shit personality, then I wouldn't want to date them the same way that I wouldn't want to date a genetic woman with a shit personality.
Also, many of the responses in this thread me sad, not because I'm biased or anything, but because of the amount of ignorant and/or prejudiced people saying, "I wouldn't date a trans woman because it's still a dude/they've got psychological problems I don't want to deal with" (reminds me of the homophobes that say "Marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman; think about our FAMILY VALUES!"). Just look at Morgan Bailey and tell me, with a straight look on your face, that she's a man. Also try to tell me that genetic woman can't have "psychological problems" too, just as "bad", if not worse, than trans women. Practically everyone's got some "psychological problems" anyway; it's just that some are better at hiding it than others. People just discriminate against their fellow man without having a lick of understanding of what they've gone through, or what it's like being them, having the gall to claim that they know more about their minds and bodies than they do.
Oh, and by the way, guys: you can be as straight as an arrow and still be attracted to a trans women, if she looks feminine and attractive enough. That's why, in porn circles, they call them "traps" (although I understand that's a derogatory term, for obvious reasons).
Cry Wolf: I have a particularly simple requirement for dating; do I find the person attractive? It sounds obvious, but it goes further than you'd assume - mainly because I don't have any of the common social stigma (nor do I care about the possible resentment from other for dating someone, whatever their reason would be) in regards to sexuality. For me, it's completely defined by arousal rather than morality. For instance, I could probably find enjoyment in homosexual intercourse, particularly oral, despite defining myself as heterosexual (I define myself as this because I don't find any arousal due to physical form of males, while the opposite is true for females; for what it's worth) given the physical stimuli was pleasant. In many regards, I imagine it'd be a lot like masturbation.
DarthSka: Nah, couldn't do it. Call me close-minded but if you have an expressed Y-chromosome then to me you are a male/man/guy/boy/dude/bro etc. I wouldn't mind being friends with any, but I just wouldn't be able to consider them an actual woman.
You have a right to that opinion and that's perfectly fine.. but a lot of trans girls including myself would not associate with someone who claims to be a friend, but sees us as our birth sex and not the gender we truly are.
Glad to have confirmation. I just seem to lack the terminology to describe the why of it at the moment.
Sure :) Ya it's not "acting" anything, it's what I AM... I was born in the wrong body and i am just making efforts to change that mistake.
Being what you "are," at least somewhat includes your body. Which is still its original gender, aside from cosmetic tweaks. Let the hormone treatments run out, you'll see my point.
I am NOT saying people should NOT be transgender. I AM saying belief that you really have BECOME the opposite gender is not true. In reality, you have become a nonfunctional version of your original gender that resembles the opposite one. So no, it's not deeper. Yes, you are roleplaying. But that's perfectly ok, because it's what you truly feel you want to be. Also note, being "born in the wrong body" is probably too metaphysical a case to bring up in a medical argument.
You do realize that most transgenders actually have their brains developed similair to the opposite sex? Sexually you might be right, a man is born a man and a female born a female. But mentally it's a much more complex story
TehCookie: I never could, there is no way to make a male into female or vise versa and doing so is just mutilation. I'm fine if they want to act like the opposite gender, but when you get to the surgery I find that crossing the line. Like how furries have a fursona, and then there's that guy who sewn a dogs face onto his. Then again I'm not attracted to plastic surgery in general, and the more drastic of a change the more of a turn-off it is.
No, being a transsexual is most likely nothing like roleplaying a character in a fandom.
it's absolutely nothing like that. It's deeper..WAY deeper.
We need to go deeper!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
And that's all I can really contribute to this thread. Other than to say yes, assuming I were to ever date anyone.
Beautiful Tragedy: I won't get into the misinformed statements, as I am not the argumentative type anymore.
Seems like you are doing it anyway, it just wouldn't be a transsexual thread with out you correcting people :p
Uhh I haven't correct anyone just trying educate. I am not arguing with you or anyone else... but if you think THIS is argumentative... this is nothing. As I said, I won't belabor the point. I am ready to move on and have a sensible discussion. I was only trying to expand the knowledge that some people may lack, or may not have heard about.
Not sure how many TS threads pop up here, but i only recently came back after months away.
EDIT: Also, to everyone in this thread who said 'I want to have children', would you date someone who can't have children for some reason, or just is very certain they don't want to?
I'm just wondering how many people use that as an excuse...
Yes, I would not start a serious relationship with anyone who didn't want or couldn't have children, it's that simple. To many people having a family is an important life goal and while adoption is an option, it takes years of jumping through hoops and most adoptive children take a different challenge to raise than biological kids since at the best they've experienced neglect and often much worse abuse.
OT: I would date for short-term if I found them attractive but for long-term, the lack of fertility would rule it out. People are free to choose their own gender and I will respect their choice but I'm some what sceptical about the whole "it's not a mental condition, it's physical," point. There are people who believe they are wrong age (adult babies) or the wrong species (otherkin), do they have a physical problem too?
are those in the DSM? Gender Dysphoria is, and was declassified now that deeper long term study has been done. It is not considered a mental disorder by the mental, and medical health community.
To be fair the adult babies (Paraphilic Infantilism) are a recognised disorder. I'm not a psychologist so I'm not going to pretend my opinions are worth that much but I am a biology student and so I've got to wonder what the biological basis for calling a transgenderism a physical disorder is when it mainly seems to affect the brain. There are developmental disorders based in the brain like autism or dyspraxia so perhaps it should more properly classed alongside those.
DarthSka: Nah, couldn't do it. Call me close-minded but if you have an expressed Y-chromosome then to me you are a male/man/guy/boy/dude/bro etc. I wouldn't mind being friends with any, but I just wouldn't be able to consider them an actual woman.
You have a right to that opinion and that's perfectly fine.. but a lot of trans girls including myself would not associate with someone who claims to be a friend, but sees us as our birth sex and not the gender we truly are.
And I respect your opinion. In a friendship with me though, it wouldn't be something that's a big deal anymore than some of the exact opposite religious and political opinions I share with my current friends. In this case, I wouldn't really focus on you as a female, trans girl, male, etc. I would focus on you as a person, gender be damned. In the case of romance, one of the things I do focus on is sexuality, but for friends, a good personality is all I care about. And in the situation you described, it would just be another thing we share different opinions on, which I think shouldn't exactly be a deal breaker.
Yes, I would not start a serious relationship with anyone who didn't want or couldn't have children, it's that simple. To many people having a family is an important life goal and while adoption is an option, it takes years of jumping through hoops and most adoptive children take a different challenge to raise than biological kids since at the best they've experienced neglect and often much worse abuse.
OT: I would date for short-term if I found them attractive but for long-term, the lack of fertility would rule it out. People are free to choose their own gender and I will respect their choice but I'm some what sceptical about the whole "it's not a mental condition, it's physical," point. There are people who believe they are wrong age (adult babies) or the wrong species (otherkin), do they have a physical problem too?
are those in the DSM? Gender Dysphoria is, and was declassified now that deeper long term study has been done. It is not considered a mental disorder by the mental, and medical health community.
To be fair the adult babies (Paraphilic Infantilism) are a recognised disorder. I'm not a psychologist so I'm not going to pretend my opinions are worth that much but I am a biology student and so I've got to wonder what the biological basis for calling a transgenderism a physical disorder is when it mainly seems to affect the brain. There are developmental disorders based in the brain like autism or dyspraxia so perhaps it should more properly classed alongside those.
I misspoke i guess it's a chemical one i guess. I don't know exactly..it's definitely not BDD or anything like that. I just know that the medical community no longer considers it a mental illness.
And I respect your opinion. In a friendship with me though, it wouldn't be something that's a big deal anymore than some of the exact opposite religious and political opinions I share with my current friends. In this case, I wouldn't really focus on you as a female, trans girl, male, etc. I would focus on you as a person, gender be damned. In the case of romance, one of the things I do focus on is sexuality, but for friends, a good personality is all I care about. And in the situation you described, it would just be another thing we share different opinions on, which I think shouldn't exactly be a deal breaker.
Well ok then! i like it, i like it alot :D sounds great! lol
Casual Shinji: Why do these transgender threads always exude this vibe that not being able to be physically attracted to every human being on the planet makes you a bad person?
I don't think anyone is saying that really, any one who does is rather silly. You can't force someone to be a attracted to trans people any more then a trans person can "just deal with it. No one should have to make apologies for their sexuality and that means heterosexuals too. However people go beyond that and add an unnecessary level of hostilely to their answers. I'll use yours as an example.
I'm sorry for everyone who feels trapped in the wong gender's physique, but to me if you're a guy then you're a guy. And I'm attracted to girls.
And there's more to it. I find people who have undergone heavy duty plastic surgery horribly unappealing. I wouldn't want to date a man who (surgically) became a woman anymore than I would want to date a woman who (surgically) became a man.
Yours was a relatively mild way of putting it, (relative to comparing it to cutting of dog faces, almost everything is mild) but your words still come off as telling transpeople they are delusional. That's the problem. Rather then saying something like "Its not something I could get past physically or sexually", many have to try and act like transpeople are lies in human form. That is the part that offends people, the idea that they are all delusional.
The thing is if someone feels trapped in the wrong gender, they can decide for themselves to change this and be of a different gender. But they can't decide this for everyone else around them, and say that those who don't see them as what they themselves now perceive their gender to be, as close minded and oppressive.
Gender is most definately an important thing otherwise people who feel trapped in the wrong one wouldn't have an issue with it. And changing it drastically impacts the lives of the person who changes it and the people around them. It's not just a simple "Now I am a woman/man; deal with it".
I could date anyone I damn well please. I don't have to be interested in pursuing a relationship with them or interested in them at all, on the surface it's just being in close contact with each other (with varying levels of exclusivity) for extended periods of time socially and in private.
Could I pursue a romantic relationship with a transsexual? No. We might be able to share a bond mentally or emotionally, but I'd be lying if I said I wished to pursue one beyond that or a more physical relationship. In addition to personal and biological urges, I've yet to see a truly convincing transsexual. Despite modern advancements in hormone therapy and plastic surgery, the telltale signs are still there (especially noticeable if you're flat out told that they're trans).
You know what I never get about these threads. It always ends up with people defending themselves with claims of medical disorders, or the validity of chromosomes in the debate and other genetic and developmental anomalies.
Now lets be honest, this is very complicated territory. I know more than the average guy about biological functions, but I really wouldn't feel comfortable slapping down an absolute here. "No, chromosomes aren't what determine your sex" Or "only chromosomes determine your sex." etc.
The sad fact of the matter is that I doubt anyone here is qualified to give an absolute on something like this. Wikipedia and the odd research paper you found doesn't equate to on the pulse knowledge.
The truth is it hasn't even really been decided one way or the other in the medical world. As with most things. The majority of this territory is purely theoretical and based on assumed models. (if someone brings up the ole' "Gravity, eets just a theory" meme, I will brain them.)
Anyway, the point I'm getting at (and this includes homosexuality aswell.) why does it matter to you if it's a medical condition, or something you were born with? Why should that be your go to answer for people who don't accept you?
You are all allowed to choose what you do with your bodies, and who you want to be intimate with.
People should only have to accept you as a person, it doesn't matter if they see you as your 'target gender' or not. As long as they're not discriminating against you (I know that's still a major problem, but it's not relevant to this topic.) it doesn't matter what they think of your choices.
Just like I tattoo my body, and pierce it. You can change it so it is aesthetically pleasing or more comfortable to you. What other people think of these choices shouldn't matter to you.
And just because someone wouldn't want a relationship with you does not mean they're being actively discriminatory.
If someone disproves of how I dress, or present myself. I don't say it's because they're discriminating.
People accepting you is not the same as people wanting to sleep with you. It doesn't even mean they have to agree with what you've done to make yourself feel comfortable in your own skin. That is and always will be your business, no ones else's.
I know it's easy for me to say that in my situation. But it is the truth. You should be looking to be accepted as a person who made a choice to change your body to fit your mind. What other people see you as should not enter into it, so long as they accept you and your choice.
Nah our medical technology is still a long way off from being able to swap a persons gender popping some pills and renovating the old crotch zone aint enough
Gottesstrafe: I've yet to see a truly convincing transsexual. Despite modern advancements in hormone therapy and plastic surgery, the telltale signs are still there (especially noticeable if you're flat out told that they're trans).
one of the biggest issues with appearance for trans girls is the surgeries are not perfect, and many of us can't afford ALL of them needed to truly be 100% passable. Some people are blessed with feminine features or begin early and hrt has a better effect.
are those in the DSM? Gender Dysphoria is, and was declassified now that deeper long term study has been done. It is not considered a mental disorder by the mental, and medical health community.
To be fair the adult babies (Paraphilic Infantilism) are a recognised disorder. I'm not a psychologist so I'm not going to pretend my opinions are worth that much but I am a biology student and so I've got to wonder what the biological basis for calling a transgenderism a physical disorder is when it mainly seems to affect the brain. There are developmental disorders based in the brain like autism or dyspraxia so perhaps it should more properly classed alongside those.
I misspoke i guess it's a chemical one i guess. I don't know exactly..it's definitely not BDD or anything like that. I just know that the medical community no longer considers it a mental illness.
Fair enough, I have nothing against trangender people personally, my scientific side is just curious exactly how such a phenomena arises and what it should be classified as. To be honest I don't put much trust in the DSM since it's written by fallible humans and depends a lot on the society's attitudes and norms, hence why both homosexuality and gender dysphoria have been listed in the past.
Casual Shinji: But what does any of that have to do with being physically attracted to someone? I'm not attracted to 90-year old ladies either, it doesn't mean I think they're sub-human.
I can't force my body to be attracted to someone when I don't find them attractive. It is okay to not be sexually attracted to someone based on how they look. Maybe this makes me extremely shallow, but I guess I'm just that close-minded.
No, it's totally ok and perfectly natural to be attracted to people based on appearance. And if you find out someone you were attracted to is transwoman, and that's a dealbreaker for you, better to be honest.
What's not ok are pithy comments about how "if you're a guy you're a guy."
Why is this not okay? Why is it okay for transgenders to place so much importance on gender (why else would they get a sex change), but not for everyone else?
(Terminology note: "sex" refers to biological characteristics, while "gender" refers to cultural performances such as dress and behavior.)
Most transsexual people feel they were assigned the wrong gender at birth. More specifically, their gender (wlog, male) was assigned based on their primary sexual characteristics (penis), but genetics/prenatal hormone exposure resulted in brain development not in line with this (female). This is all pretty well-accepted in the medical community. The desire to transition is often (though not always) about bringing one's body in line with one's sex (brain) and gender (dress/behavior). Anna Anthropy's Dys4ia is a short flash game detailing her experiences with transitioning. It's quite heartfelt and authentic.
It's not ok because...
a) They "place so much importance on gender" because it's their body and their brain. Your (not just you, but many people in this thread) opinion that they are not "real" men/women is unnecessary and uncalled for.
b) Trans* people are assaulted, raped, and murdered every day by people operating under the same logic that "if you're a guy you're a guy." This "opinion" is held by too many people in society and is not acceptable.
Yea but my standards for how feminine they need to look would probably be higher than my standards for a natural born woman just because I don't want it on my mind at all times that I'm looking at them.
To be fair the adult babies (Paraphilic Infantilism) are a recognised disorder. I'm not a psychologist so I'm not going to pretend my opinions are worth that much but I am a biology student and so I've got to wonder what the biological basis for calling a transgenderism a physical disorder is when it mainly seems to affect the brain. There are developmental disorders based in the brain like autism or dyspraxia so perhaps it should more properly classed alongside those.
I misspoke i guess it's a chemical one i guess. I don't know exactly..it's definitely not BDD or anything like that. I just know that the medical community no longer considers it a mental illness.
Fair enough, I have nothing against trangender people personally, my scientific side is just curious exactly how such a phenomena arises and what it should be classified as. To be honest I don't put much trust in the DSM since it's written by fallible humans and depends a lot on the societies attitudes, hence why both homosexuality and gender dysphoria have been listed in the past.
I get what you're saying about the DSM, but that's how people determine what's a mental illness and what's not.. noone knows for sure, but i know how I feel... I am not dysphoric, I know what's up with me, and I am fixing it.
Tanis: Not cross dressing, because that's fun no matter who you are, but an physically/medically changed person.
I take offence to this. There are plenty of people who cross-dress, to varying degrees, who have perfectly sound relationships. It ain't just blokes in drag.
Yes. Being that I am more attracted to personality rather than what is/isn't in someone's pants the issue of gender or sex organs really doesn't matter to me. And has no impact whatsoever on attraction for me. Just like I could also date someone who was asexual even though I'm a highly sexual person.
Being what you "are," at least somewhat includes your body. Which is still its original gender, aside from cosmetic tweaks. Let the hormone treatments run out, you'll see my point.
I am NOT saying people should NOT be transgender. I AM saying belief that you really have BECOME the opposite gender is not true. In reality, you have become a nonfunctional version of your original gender that resembles the opposite one. So no, it's not deeper. Yes, you are roleplaying. But that's perfectly ok, because it's what you truly feel you want to be. Also note, being "born in the wrong body" is probably too metaphysical a case to bring up in a medical argument.