I have a question for vegans.

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I can understand not using animal products for religious, environmental and cruelty reasons. However the one thing I don't get is this: What if you kept chickens and treated them right, fed them and made them free range etc. Could you then collect, and use the eggs knowing that you had not abused the chickens into laying them?

If you had animals, and treated them without abuse or hormones could you then harvest their products? Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

I am not looking to flame or troll, so please don't any of you.

I'm only vegetarian, not vegan, but the reason I don't eat organic, free-range, grass-fed meat is because I feel like I sound like less of a douche when I say "I don't eat meat" vs "I only eat organic, free-range, grass-fed meat."

Maybe that's why. Or because organic milk and eggs are expensive. Or they really just don't have a taste for them.

Evil Smurf:
Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

I heard someone tried milking a cow with horns once.....

Sources say the horned cows milk didn't cum ... sorry ... come, all that naturally.

Evil Smurf:
I can understand not using animal products for religious, environmental and cruelty reasons.

However the one thing I don't get is this: What if you kept chickens and treated them right, fed them and made them free range etc. Could you then collect, and use the eggs knowing that you had not abused the chickens into laying them?

. . . Well, that solves the cruelty reason. You kind of answered your own question in that regard.

I mean, I'm only pescetarian (vegetarian diet + fish), but I don't have any problem with that. I always make a point to buy free range eggs[1] when possible.

If you had animals, and treated them without abuse or hormones could you then harvest their products? Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

Not that this is terribly relevant, but milk only comes naturally to cows after they've given birth, and only for two years. It's inhumane to leave a cow without milk, but it's equally inhumane to induce a cow to produce milk.

. . . not completely sure where I was going with that. Just wanted to clear a point, I guess.

[1] Not to be confused with free roam eggs, which still allow the hens to be treated cruelly.

Professor Lupin Madblood:

Evil Smurf:
I can understand not using animal products for religious, environmental and cruelty reasons.

However the one thing I don't get is this: What if you kept chickens and treated them right, fed them and made them free range etc. Could you then collect, and use the eggs knowing that you had not abused the chickens into laying them?

. . . Well, that solves the cruelty reason. You kind of answered your own question in that regard.

I mean, I'm only pescetarian (vegetarian diet + fish), but I don't have any problem with that. I always make a point to buy free range eggs[1] when possible.

If you had animals, and treated them without abuse or hormones could you then harvest their products? Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

Not that this is terribly relevant, but milk only comes naturally to cows after they've given birth, and only for two years. It's inhumane to leave a cow without milk, but it's equally inhumane to induce a cow to produce milk.

. . . not completely sure where I was going with that. Just wanted to clear a point, I guess.

thanks for the incite.

[1] Not to be confused with free roam eggs, which still allow the hens to be treated cruelly.

Evil Smurf:
I can understand not using animal products for religious, environmental and cruelty reasons. However the one thing I don't get is this: What if you kept chickens and treated them right, fed them and made them free range etc. Could you then collect, and use the eggs knowing that you had not abused the chickens into laying them?

If you had animals, and treated them without abuse or hormones could you then harvest their products? Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

I am not looking to flame or troll, so please don't any of you.

I'm not a pure vegan, so I don't know. I am vegetarian, however, and I see no issue in it. After all, I avoid anything that comes from an animal, not some inane rules that make my head hurt. Exactly what can't vegans eat again...?

thesilentman:
Exactly what can't vegans eat again?

Animal products like meat, jelly, ice cream, leather, glue, chocolate. The good stuff.

Evil Smurf:

thesilentman:
Exactly what can't vegans eat again?

Animal products like meat, jelly, ice cream, leather, glue, chocolate. The good stuff.

I'm not as strict as vegans. For me, it's no animal products, but anything that's from a milk product is perfectly fine. A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it." Eggs are a bit of a gray area in this regard...

thesilentman:

Evil Smurf:

thesilentman:
Exactly what can't vegans eat again?

Animal products like meat, jelly, ice cream, leather, glue, chocolate. The good stuff.

I'm not as strict as vegans. For me, it's no animal products, but anything that's from a milk product is perfectly fine. A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it." Eggs are a bit of a gray area in this regard...

yeast is alive, and so is the bacteria in yoghurt. What about them?

Evil Smurf:

thesilentman:

Evil Smurf:
Animal products like meat, jelly, ice cream, leather, glue, chocolate. The good stuff.

I'm not as strict as vegans. For me, it's no animal products, but anything that's from a milk product is perfectly fine. A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it." Eggs are a bit of a gray area in this regard...

yeast is alive, and so is the bacteria in yoghurt. What about them?

Incoming 50 Shades of grey area.

I suppose since neither yeast or bacteria are animals it wouldn't matter.

FrozenCones:
I suppose since neither yeast or bacteria are animals it wouldn't matter.

good save.

Evil Smurf:

thesilentman:
I'm not as strict as vegans. For me, it's no animal products, but anything that's from a milk product is perfectly fine. A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it." Eggs are a bit of a gray area in this regard...

yeast is alive, and so is the bacteria in yoghurt. What about them?

They're small so they don't count.

OT: As you started to imply, it depends upon the reason for veganism. There's also that after you stop eating meat and other animal products for a while, it can sometimes stop tasting good.

Zen Toombs:

Evil Smurf:

thesilentman:
I'm not as strict as vegans. For me, it's no animal products, but anything that's from a milk product is perfectly fine. A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it." Eggs are a bit of a gray area in this regard...

yeast is alive, and so is the bacteria in yoghurt. What about them?

They're small so they don't count.

OT: As you started to imply, it depends upon the reason for veganism. There's also that after you stop eating meat and other animal products for a while, it can sometimes stop tasting good.

I had no idea you lose the taste for meat!

Evil Smurf:

Zen Toombs:

Evil Smurf:
yeast is alive, and so is the bacteria in yoghurt. What about them?

They're small so they don't count.

OT: As you started to imply, it depends upon the reason for veganism. There's also that after you stop eating meat and other animal products for a while, it can sometimes stop tasting good.

I had no idea you lose the taste for meat!

I'm not sure if it's just the taste but I read about some people saying that they tried meat after being vegetarian or vegan for years and they felt sick because their bodies weren't use to it after such a long time.

Professor Lupin Madblood:

Evil Smurf:
I can understand not using animal products for religious, environmental and cruelty reasons.

However the one thing I don't get is this: What if you kept chickens and treated them right, fed them and made them free range etc. Could you then collect, and use the eggs knowing that you had not abused the chickens into laying them?

. . . Well, that solves the cruelty reason. You kind of answered your own question in that regard.

I mean, I'm only pescetarian (vegetarian diet + fish), but I don't have any problem with that. I always make a point to buy free range eggs[1] when possible.

If you had animals, and treated them without abuse or hormones could you then harvest their products? Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

Not that this is terribly relevant, but milk only comes naturally to cows after they've given birth, and only for two years. It's inhumane to leave a cow without milk, but it's equally inhumane to induce a cow to produce milk.

. . . not completely sure where I was going with that. Just wanted to clear a point, I guess.

Are you a "pescetarian" because you think it's cruel to the animals?

In that case I can't see why you would be eating fish.

[1] Not to be confused with free roam eggs, which still allow the hens to be treated cruelly.

Some people say they do it for health reasons, that it's not natural for humans to eat any animal products, and it's better for the environment.

http://www.veganwolf.com/reasons_to_be_vegan.htm

Health reasons are bogus, eating more vegetables to cope with the lack of other energy can cause an excess of nutrients which can cause long term problems. And the protein content of the food isn't sufficient or varied enough for our body. Is Veganism more healthy than your average persons diet, definitely, is it healthier then a balanced lifestyle with meat, eggs, and cheese? No. There diets also much be strictly maintained file behind a little here and there and your asking for a trip to the hospital. Also if everyone where vegan we wouldn't have the resources to ensure everyone got the high protein food stuff vegans use.

Second reason, humans are built as omnivores, fact, if we where herbivores our eyes would be on the sides of our heads.

Third reason... they kind of have that one on the money. If we didn't have to raise livestock, chickens, or fish and process all the included products we could probably take away a quarter of our CO2 emissions. And with all the plants we'd have we have more Co2 sinks.(not enough to negate our carbon emissions mind you) Of course all the formerly domesticated animals would die very very quickly, we'd see a sharp increase in wolf, bear, and vulture populations throughout the world if we all switched to vegan.

Overall though I like my meat and while in a perfect world we would all be vegan we don't live in a perfect world. Now you can pry this steak out of my cold dead hands.

SSJBlastoise:

Evil Smurf:

Zen Toombs:
They're small so they don't count.

OT: As you started to imply, it depends upon the reason for veganism. There's also that after you stop eating meat and other animal products for a while, it can sometimes stop tasting good.

I had no idea you lose the taste for meat!

I'm not sure if it's just the taste but I read about some people saying that they tried meat after being vegetarian or vegan for years and they felt sick because their bodies weren't use to it after such a long time.

That's pretty much purely for psychological reasons, conditioning and pathological levels of guilt tripping. It's just a hypothesis of mine and research is still in progress.

What I can tell you is this: Most vegans I've arsed into eating meat/chicken/whatever absolutely like the taste and texture of animal products, it's just that their substitute religion makes them save the world by being so considerate and worried about CO2 emissions and other crap the current cult of global warming climate change are using to play God. Shit hasn't gone any warmer since 1998, and you will find that most alarmists that are worth their enlightened weight in dead Goebbelses have meanwhile adopted the term 'climate change'. Thing is, climate's been changing forever, Earth doesn't give much of a damn about us. It just keeps doing its thing. Besides, it's about time for another ice age, I'm getting fed up with this sunshine/rain binarity of it all.

Same goes for jews eating baby animals enhanced by the milk of their mothers or muslims eating pork and shellfish infused with alcohol; they love it, it's just that their cult messes with their heads.

Well, eating eggs would be the same to vegans as an abortion but i don't see a problem with drinking milk.

amiran123:
Well, eating eggs would be the same to vegans as an abortion but i don't see a problem with drinking milk.

I would suggest most supermarket eggs are more akin to periods than abortions as very, very few of them will be fertilised (if any at all). It's only when you buy eggs from independent shops or farms that you run any great risk of eating an unborn baby chicken.

Personally, I think veganism is hypocritical, considering how many day to day products uses resources from animals.

Computers, vehicle tires, fabric softeners etc. It would be pretty damn difficult to live a modern life that doesn't include using something made with animal parts.

Very difficult, but still hypocritical.

SSJBlastoise:

Evil Smurf:

Zen Toombs:
They're small so they don't count.

OT: As you started to imply, it depends upon the reason for veganism. There's also that after you stop eating meat and other animal products for a while, it can sometimes stop tasting good.

I had no idea you lose the taste for meat!

I'm not sure if it's just the taste but I read about some people saying that they tried meat after being vegetarian or vegan for years and they felt sick because their bodies weren't use to it after such a long time.

it sounds awful

Daystar Clarion:
Personally, I think veganism is hypocritical, considering how many day to day products uses resources from animals.

Computers, vehicle tires, fabric softeners etc. It would be pretty damn difficult to live a modern life that doesn't include using something made with animal parts.

Very difficult, but still hypocritical.

This informative chart may help!

image

As far as I can see, the only way to be truly vegan is to become some kind of nudist cave-dwelling vagrant, eating only berries and roots and generally avoiding all contact with the civilised world.

Evil Smurf:

thesilentman:

Evil Smurf:
Animal products like meat, jelly, ice cream, leather, glue, chocolate. The good stuff.

I'm not as strict as vegans. For me, it's no animal products, but anything that's from a milk product is perfectly fine. A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it." Eggs are a bit of a gray area in this regard...

yeast is alive, and so is the bacteria in yoghurt. What about them?

Welcome to kingdoms of Archeabacteria and Eubacteria. No, I'm okay with yeast and yogurt. Considering that both of those things are a big part of my diet, I don't mind as much.

Stasisesque:

amiran123:
Well, eating eggs would be the same to vegans as an abortion but i don't see a problem with drinking milk.

I would suggest most supermarket eggs are more akin to periods than abortions as very, very few of them will be fertilised (if any at all). It's only when you buy eggs from independent shops or farms that you run any great risk of eating an unborn baby chicken.

Yeah, periods is the accurate analogy. Eggs that make it to the store are never fertilized. Having had chickens myself I have seen what happens when you get a fertilized egg by accident. Yeah... you'd know you'd had a fertilized egg there... yuck!

OT: Not a vegetarian nor a vegan, but I have been growing up on a farm, I know the rulings around it around here and I am fine with it. Free range eggs are soon to be the only eggs sold, cows and sheep are by law supposed to spend time outside during the warm season of the year and we don't treat animals with hormones.

Now with pigs we've still got some ways to go in order to improve their conditions, but from what I can see pigs are doing OK. Also anyone caught in an animal abuse can actually end up paying quite a lot and might even lose his right to own a farm. I am able to eat animals because I grew up with them and saw them as happy animals.

Evil Smurf:

thesilentman:
Exactly what can't vegans eat again?

Animal products like meat, jelly, ice cream, leather, glue, chocolate. The good stuff.

I thought vegetarians avoided eating jelly (gelatin) as well it's generally made from one of the following sources: bones of various farm animals, pig skin and cattle hide?

Starik20X6:

Daystar Clarion:
Personally, I think veganism is hypocritical, considering how many day to day products uses resources from animals.

Computers, vehicle tires, fabric softeners etc. It would be pretty damn difficult to live a modern life that doesn't include using something made with animal parts.

Very difficult, but still hypocritical.

As far as I can see, the only way to be truly vegan is to become some kind of nudist cave-dwelling vagrant, eating only berries and roots and generally avoiding all contact with the civilised world.

I think it's more to do with trying to reduce as best they can the amount they rely on animals and not eating them is the first big and easy step in the right direction.

I respect vegetarians and vegans for there choices, unfortuntley i have only met one vegan who respected my choice to eat meat.

This isn't a position I subscribe to, but many people who support animal liberation compare farming to slavery. To them, whether the animals are treated well or poorly doesn't change the fact that they are essentially prisoners. Depending on who you ask, they may say that animals are sentient, possibly even aware of their lack of freedom, or they may say whether they are or not is irrelevant.

Headdrivehardscrew:
That's pretty much purely for psychological reasons, conditioning and pathological levels of guilt tripping. It's just a hypothesis of mine and research is still in progress.

What I can tell you is this: Most vegans I've arsed into eating meat/chicken/whatever absolutely like the taste and texture of animal products, it's just that their substitute religion makes them save the world by being so considerate and worried about CO2 emissions and other crap the current cult of global warming climate change are using to play God. Shit hasn't gone any warmer since 1998, and you will find that most alarmists that are worth their enlightened weight in dead Goebbelses have meanwhile adopted the term 'climate change'. Thing is, climate's been changing forever, Earth doesn't give much of a damn about us. It just keeps doing its thing. Besides, it's about time for another ice age, I'm getting fed up with this sunshine/rain binarity of it all.

Same goes for jews eating baby animals enhanced by the milk of their mothers or muslims eating pork and shellfish infused with alcohol; they love it, it's just that their cult messes with their heads.

You must be a blast to have at parties.

Edit: And it's funny that you think the "global warming" -> "climate change" terminology shift is propaganda. It is. Right-wing propaganda. The term "climate change" was invented by a GOP strategist named Frank Luntz at the behest of the Bush II administration to make global warming sound less severe than it actually is, and the term eventually caught on in general usage.

Rawne1980:

Evil Smurf:
Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

I heard someone tried milking a cow with horns once.....

Sources say the horned cows milk didn't cum ... sorry ... come, all that naturally.

You are aware that female cows also have horns right? Not just the bull.

Arfonious:

Rawne1980:

Evil Smurf:
Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

I heard someone tried milking a cow with horns once.....

Sources say the horned cows milk didn't cum ... sorry ... come, all that naturally.

You are aware that female cows also have horns right? Not just the bull.

Yes i'm well aware of that....

Are you aware it gets really tiresome having to explain to people that i'm not being serious....

thesilentman:
(...)A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it."(...)

So you only eat rocks? Since "if something died, not eating it" kind of means you can't eat anything that was once part of a living being, including everything we can use as nutrients.

Did you know that about a billion of the atoms forming your very own body once belonged to someone like Mozart or Buddha?

Just saying.

Steak is awesome btw.

Rawne1980:

Arfonious:

Rawne1980:

I heard someone tried milking a cow with horns once.....

Sources say the horned cows milk didn't cum ... sorry ... come, all that naturally.

You are aware that female cows also have horns right? Not just the bull.

Yes i'm well aware of that....

Are you aware it gets really tiresome having to explain to people that i'm not being serious....

On the internet, everyone is always serious...

Rastien:
I respect vegetarians and vegans for there choices, unfortuntley i have only met one vegan who respected my choice to eat meat.

It's much harder for them to respect you considering you're doing something they consider unethical. bananafishtoday brought up the slavery analogy, so let's go with that:

Let's say you found slavery immoral, and as such chose to abstain from owning slaves. How easy would it be for you to respect someone who basically said "Yeah I can kinda see that owning slaves isn't the best thing to do, but on the other hand I really like having people I can boss around."?

Arfonious:

Rawne1980:

Evil Smurf:
Milk for example comes naturally to cows.

I heard someone tried milking a cow with horns once.....

Sources say the horned cows milk didn't cum ... sorry ... come, all that naturally.

You are aware that female cows also have horns right? Not just the bull.

Around here, they do as well. But I am pretty certain that in the heavy industrialized form of dairy or meat farming, cows have their horns removed, just as they clip off the chickens beaks on those awful chicken farms.

Around here, we are still able to differentiate between cows (with udders and vaginas) and bulls (those come with peens! Yay!). Also, people get attacked and hurt or even killed by cows that defend their young or bored bulls roaming the landscape, always looking for a challenge. You look small and don't know what to do, they'll stomp your ass. Proper bulls and cows are not that friendly, and they certainly don't feature no hippie peacenik mindset. They are stubborn, dangerous and easily pissed off creatures with a very basic set of social skills that are adorable if you're one of them, but are freakin' scary when you happen to not be an accepted member of their club. If your dog can manage a bunch of these, your dog will master the world, save children and handle aggressors and attackers in the most direct and natural way possible. It's nature. I find it to be sad and appalling to want to save nature by not being in touch with it or your own - hopefully human - nature.

I know there are things that are wrong and cruel and horrible, but I say we must solve these issues with laws, control, education and compassion, not by degenerating into some more enlightened form of poopy panda. Pandas are carnivores that eventually took to eating shrubbery instead of putting up with the effort to hunt. I don't know of any culture that seeks panda claws or powder made of dried panda penis or rejuvenatingly bitter gall bladder juice, and yet they're on the brink of extinction. sure, humans destroy habitat - also a huge issue I find quite unacceptable. I just think we need to address these issues properly and solve them, and not let politics and corruption delay things for years or seemingly forever and have the people believe in hack cults that will save their eternal souls, the planet and the universe if only they adhere to some more political BS that's served in the form of 'holy' scripture or golden rules to save the planet by turning into passive-aggressive pandas going for the throat of anyone that does not believe in their most current re-enactment of the burning zealot. after ten thousand years, this shit gets boring fast.

It's cool to want to save the world and it's only natural to turn into an intolerant and intolerable asshole in the process, it still says shit about whether the basic premise of your political and poetical struggle is fact or fabricated nonsense like Xenu.

We're smack in the middle of some high times for disparity and segregation, and, as usual when humans are involved, it's all based on some fairly fairy looking plans for a better tomorrow and shit made up in ignorance, the intent to influence people or just plain for the lulz.

John the Gamer:

thesilentman:
(...)A simpler way to state this is, "if something died, not eating it."(...)

So you only eat rocks? Since "if something died, not eating it" kind of means you can't eat anything that was once part of a living being, including everything we can use as nutrients.

Did you know that about a billion of the atoms forming your very own body once belonged to someone like Mozart or Buddha?

Just saying.

Steak is awesome btw.

What you're implying is something different from what I'm trying to say. Don't take that literally, I know about the Conservation of Mass. I'm saying that if something lost it's life to be food, I'm not eating it. I don't mind if any people eat meat. The reason I say that is because most people are confused about what I mean when I tell them I'm a vegetarian.

Evil Smurf:
could you then harvest their products?

Depends who you ask.

Some vegans see it as ok to wear leather clothing that they owned from before they became vegan. A certain logic to it is that it would be an insult to the animal to have worn part of them for a purpose to then only have it destroyed and serve no purpose at all.

But that's only some vegans or animal rights people. Other see it as disgusting and that even though it happens, leather production shouldn't be encouraged at all, even if it's second hand leather.

Like I said, it really depends on who you talk to. Some find it abhorrent that people have domesticated animals while others gladly keep pets.

Although it's mostly the 'harvesting' of animals that people who choose not to use animal products object to.

A bit of constructive criticism: This thread would be better served on a forum dedicated to vegetarianism/veganism, not nerd culture and video games.

SSJBlastoise:

Evil Smurf:

Zen Toombs:
They're small so they don't count.

OT: As you started to imply, it depends upon the reason for veganism. There's also that after you stop eating meat and other animal products for a while, it can sometimes stop tasting good.

I had no idea you lose the taste for meat!

I'm not sure if it's just the taste but I read about some people saying that they tried meat after being vegetarian or vegan for years and they felt sick because their bodies weren't use to it after such a long time.

I have a vegetarian friend. It apparently has something to do with enzymes, like how there are cultures that are naturally lactose intolerant because they don't have the enzymes to process cow milk.

Personally, I enjoy my meat too much and don't care about the "ethics" of the matter when it comes to cows. But this thread isn't about me so I'll shut up! :D

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