I want to believe...

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT
 

I believe in Karma. It gives me an incentive to be a good person and not a cynical asshole.

I believe that I can do absolutely anything at all, be it winning a Nobel prize, killing a tiger on my way to school, shooting laser beams from my hands or just flying. I think that I (might) have complete control over the universe and if a try really hard I can bend it to my will as to accomplish anything from the mundane to the magical.

Mimsofthedawg:

From my understanding, it's actually a present scientific debate whether the universe is infinite or not. So you don't HAVE to believe it.

But tell me, what are some of the "dozen or so" reasons why the book would be floating across the room? lol.

Could be some type of remote controlled book, maybe some elaborate toy that looks like a book, a book being pulled acrossed the room by wires, maybe a sign from some "divine entity" to read the damn book.

Or I could be tripping balls on drugs. That makes the most sense.

(OK, not a "dozen reasons" but I tried, lol.)

I hate to say this, it makes me sound way too cocky, but deep down I feel (and consequently believe) that the universe is centered in my own existence. It feels like everything that exists exists for the sole purpose of adding something to my life experience.

Ghosts for me. Pestered by poltergeist as an early teen - for some reason I always thought it was my older brother - he'd died in an accident at 18 but when he was alive he'd wait for me to fall asleep and do shit to scare me (bash on the window and run off; shake me awake and hide under the bed as I blearily tried to realise what was happening, scratch on the cupboard doors and make weird whisper noises). That fucker kept doing it after death it seemed, too. It gradually lessened until I was about 15 and then stopped completely.

When I lived in England I was visiting Scotland with my family. We stayed at a big ol' YHA in Sutherland, called 'Carbisdale Castle' (some Escapists may have visited), which was famous for ghosties apparently. There was a games room downstairs in the old servants' quarters - access via a 'secret' panel in the great hall. Down a few flights of garishly bright-painted cement stairs, I got to the entrance to the games room. Creepy bloody place down there. I'd arranged to meet my sister down there (`cause it creeped me out) so I paused at the door and listened - I could hear what sounded like a ping pong ball being played. Good, I thought, I won't be alone in there - and opened the door.

Nobody. Just a ping pong ball. Bouncing on the ping pong table. I got up 4 flights of stairs in about 2 seconds I swear lol.

Also got into the occult a bit too deep in my late teens/early twenties. I make a point of not talking about it very much because I've seen (and done) some rather fucked up shit. The other danger is that when I get started talking about it, I pull other people in with my philosophies and they seem to become disciples. I shit you not they start following me around like the Life of Brian. To quote Ghostbusters, "I have seen shit that'll turn you white."

SanAndreasSmoke:
I had what I would best describe as a 'paranormal' experience when I was about 12 years old, so I'd say I believe in ghosts.

Woke up in the middle of the night. I was crazy thirsty but for some reason I felt it was a really bad idea to get out of bed. I can't explain why; I'd gotten out of bed for water many times before, but that night I felt like I should stay put. For about 5 minutes I looked across my room, into the restroom when all of a sudden a blue-ish white ball swelled up out of thin air and started moving away from me.

I screwed my eyes shut and have been a believer ever since. There were no windows near the bathroom. I still can't find a logical explanation for what occurred that night.

could be ball lightning, hallucinations, partial dream state, false memories etc. etc
perfect example of how i believe in something but always seek a logical explanation

aceman67:
I believe that Half Life 3 will get released in the next few years.

I also believe in miracles, fancy that! =D

In all seriousness, I sorta believe in ghosts. Not avidly or adamantly since I've ironically never seen one, but I believe there is a sort of existence that we are familiar with (all things supernatural) and have coexisted with as a species since our beginning, but do not understand.

lechat:

SanAndreasSmoke:
I had what I would best describe as a 'paranormal' experience when I was about 12 years old, so I'd say I believe in ghosts.

Woke up in the middle of the night. I was crazy thirsty but for some reason I felt it was a really bad idea to get out of bed. I can't explain why; I'd gotten out of bed for water many times before, but that night I felt like I should stay put. For about 5 minutes I looked across my room, into the restroom when all of a sudden a blue-ish white ball swelled up out of thin air and started moving away from me.

I screwed my eyes shut and have been a believer ever since. There were no windows near the bathroom. I still can't find a logical explanation for what occurred that night.

could be ball lightning, hallucinations, partial dream state, false memories etc. etc
perfect example of how i believe in something but always seek a logical explanation

Can't say it was hallucination or partial dream state; I was wide awake and in full control of my senses since I was so thirsty. I remember every detail of that ordeal and I'm not one to remember my dreams, ever. I'd put false memories to rest too. I told my entire family about it the next morning and I had to repeat the exact same story many, many times following to other friends and relatives. I haven't changed a single detail over the years and I can still picture what I saw.

Could you tell me what ball lighting is, though? I'm interested because this thing did have a sort of electrical sense to it. And it was about 2 feet in diameter I'd say, if it matters.

Stryc9:

Epic Bear Man:
I believe George W. Bush honestly only acted like a complete idiot to justify his actions during his administration. >.>

I'll take this one step further and say that Bush was merely an easily controlled puppet and Dick Cheney was really the one running the show.

I also believe that the government was at least somewhat aware of the attack on Pearl Harbor beforehand and allowed it to happen so that we could justify entering WWII.

I think the Pearl Harbor one has been confirmed, although I could be wrong, but I've heard the same rumor before.

Although the way it went was the US knew Japan was going to strike, we just didn't know when or where.

http://theconversation.edu.au/ball-lightning-exists-but-what-on-earth-is-it-10419
in some cases ball lightning has been known to harmlessly pass through walls and people and in others a burn mark is left behind
again i'm a skeptic but one who isn't opposed to the existence of ghosts/demons/vampire/magical men in the sky
for all i know you really did see a ghost but until you catch it on camera to convince me then get a leading scientists to say he has no fucking idea what it is i am always gonna call bullshit

I not only believe in extraterrestrial life, but believe that extraterrestrials have visited our planet. (or at least probes)

I've kinda wondered how the hell humanity is is still alive. You know, with supernovas, asteroids, and all other types of cosmic crap being flung at us day-in and day-out. Then I remembered the dinosaurs and figured we've just been lucky for the last few millenniums. At some point, if we don't blow ourselves up, our luck will run out. This is most likely the case for most other intelligent life in the universe. Some races unable to escape impending doom have been wiped out by asteroids, growing stars, you name it. Simple logic.

But within the last one hundred years of not being blown up, we've gone to the moon and have sent objects out of our solar system. So I've figured that with enough time and enough luck, perhaps certain planetary races (not many, but a few)could reach a point where they can travel between star systems. If not themselves, merely probes.

No doubt they're finding plenty of lifeless planets, so when they find this little green and blue ball, why the hell wouldn't they stop by and study the things there? The only reason they haven't made direct contact is probably because that shit would be too complicated.

Epic Bear Man:

Stryc9:

Epic Bear Man:
I believe George W. Bush honestly only acted like a complete idiot to justify his actions during his administration. >.>

I'll take this one step further and say that Bush was merely an easily controlled puppet and Dick Cheney was really the one running the show.

I also believe that the government was at least somewhat aware of the attack on Pearl Harbor beforehand and allowed it to happen so that we could justify entering WWII.

I think the Pearl Harbor one has been confirmed, although I could be wrong, but I've heard the same rumor before.

Although the way it went was the US knew Japan was going to strike, we just didn't know when or where.

The US government was actually supposed to know about the attack just before it happened, but still too soon for anyone to do anything about it, via a declaration of war. Unfortunately, the Japanese ambassador was a slow typer or something like that, and didn't get done decoding the declaration of war until sometime later.

lechat:
http://theconversation.edu.au/ball-lightning-exists-but-what-on-earth-is-it-10419
in some cases ball lightning has been known to harmlessly pass through walls and people and in others a burn mark is left behind
again i'm a skeptic but one who isn't opposed to the existence of ghosts/demons/vampire/magical men in the sky
for all i know you really did see a ghost but until you catch it on camera to convince me then get a leading scientists to say he has no fucking idea what it is i am always gonna call bullshit

I've gotta admit, ball lightning really does fit the description of what I saw. I'm seriously beginning to think that's what it was all along.
Well, either way it scared the shit out of me when I was a kid. Not a fun night.

I believe that somewhere, probably somewhere so far away that we'll never even see the light coming off their star, is an advanced alien civilization, several of them in fact, and a good deal of less advanced ones as well.

Arakasi:

Phuctifyno:

Arakasi:

All that proves is how far you're willing to go to make a point.

Odd, that.

Willing
1. Ready, eager, or prepared to do something.
2. Given or done readily: "willing obedience".

Has nothing to do with free will.

It sure does. Check this out: willing / free will

In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.

I believe in determinism, though some may call it fate.
I believe that there is no free will and that all our thoughts as well as actions were determined. This means I don't believe in chance.

blazearmoru:
I believe that there is no free will.

I believe in big foot because Les Stroud can be trusted in my opinion and he certainly knows his shit when it comes to wild life.

Phuctifyno:

Arakasi:

Phuctifyno:

Odd, that.

Willing
1. Ready, eager, or prepared to do something.
2. Given or done readily: "willing obedience".

Has nothing to do with free will.

It sure does. Check this out: willing / free will

In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.

I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".

Free will on the other hand, does not exist.

Just because you want to believe, has no relevance on whether or not the evidence supports your claims.

So do not expect to be taken seriously with your beliefs, if they cannot withstand that requirement.

I'm a pantheist, basically, so I believe universe is a conscious entity. I don't like calling it "god" though, because people then assign all sorts of christian-like or other-religion-like ideas to it which I consider being false and making no sense. Also, aliens, I consider them a statistical inevitability.
And magic, and supernatural. I consider them to be yet undiscovered part of physics, probably arising as a consequence of quantum effects.

Despite that, I think and act like an atheist, skeptic and rationalist. I've never pushed these beliefs on anyone, and rarely talk about them unless asked directly by someone of which I know to be genuinely curious and not just asking to start a discussion in which they can push their beliefs onto me. I am aware of the possibility of being wrong, am okay with it, and I'd be pretty much okay (though a little sad, and a little more confused than I am anyways) if they were proved to be wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt.

At the same time, I believe that my beliefs will at least partially be proven to be true during my lifetime.
(And that tiny parts of them already are, but nobody who would generally be considered sane or rational seems to be willing to connect the dots to realize it, maybe from the fear of losing that status, maybe because they're TOO grounded in evidence and unwilling to run with a hypothesis similar to what tends to be automatically waved-off as pseudo-science, because of all the other religious pseudo-science already out there.)

Also, I would LOVE to believe that I matter, that the things I cannot stop thinking about doing and wanting to do are things I'm supposed to do in this life, that they are meaningful and interesting and important ideas to share with the world, at least in a way, but it's hard and most of the time I am unable to believe that because the whole world seems to act like it doesn't give a frack.

Arakasi:

Phuctifyno:

Arakasi:

Willing
1. Ready, eager, or prepared to do something.
2. Given or done readily: "willing obedience".

Has nothing to do with free will.

It sure does. Check this out: willing / free will

In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.

I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".

Free will on the other hand, does not exist.

So who do you /believe/ (ie not know for a fact as you've put it) is in charge of this whole shebang then? Because it would have to be some sort of higher power directing the show. And so far he's a bit of a dick. Mind you, when I'm in charge in Civ 5 I always go for the bloody conquest route, maybe that's what the god(s) or spirits, or nymphs or genies were up to with the Nazis. They just got bored.

Either that or everything is just predetermined...because, because reasons.

Also, what does this lack of free will encompass? Animals are no where near as intelligent as us and function on instinct, or bactiria, or amobea or the single celled organisms we evolved from in the first place. If animals are not subject to this lack of free will, then at what point do we join the play? Simple enough creatures don't even lack the higher function necessary to do anything more than divide, yet are still living creatures, yet they wouldn't even begin to act on instinct let alone perform something resembling "free will". Are their paths all predetermined, or is it just us that are susceptible to the whims of the director?

Or do you believe that the Universe is sentient and is in charge? That the planet itself leads us? What of natural disasters, do they happen because they were "told" to happen, or are they anomalies in the plan? Are we essentially ad libbing in reaction to a world that isn't being controlled without even knowing we are commanded into our reactions?

I know neither of us can really argue either way, but I don't believe in any sort of mystical higher power, thus I'm inclined to agree with us having free will. Otherwise if we go with the fact that most dogma preaches a loving higher power, then he sure as hell isn't the one running things, because if it is, then he's a fucking dick, I'll tell you that for starters.

Note I'm not asking this in a "if a tree falls in the woods...." way, I'm asking you personally what the lack of free will means to you.

I feel like should move to Italy, take up my old family name, get coked up and write a book on the nature of free will now.

On Topic to get away from the tad philisophical nature of that debate, I believe in Aliens, mainly because it seems illogical to assume otherwise. The size and scope of the universe /has/ to have produced something capable of bearing the mantle of "intelligent" life.

I am in general a skeptic about most pseudo-science "theories" but alien life isn't really too difficult to believe in. After all...

Baron von Blitztank:
I believe in aliens. I mean the universe is infinitely big so there's going to be SOME life out there...

No matter how "special" human development is and how rare what we call "intelligent life" is... in an infinite universe it's an almost statistic inevitability that it has happened elsewhere. What I without a doubt do NOT believe in is ANY "evidence" that alien races have visited our planet. Any species advanced enough to actually TRAVEL here will easily have the technology to observe us without our detecting their presence, much less crashing into power lines and suffering through an autopsy.

elvor0:

Arakasi:

Phuctifyno:

It sure does. Check this out: willing / free will

In order to be willing to do something, the option to not be willing must be present, thus giving the willer a choice, which the willer will make using his free will, or his willie's free will.

I sincerly hope you never take a philosophy course, or that you're just trolling.
Saying will does not prove free will. Will exists. Here's it's definition:
Will
-Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen: "he was doing what the saint willed".

Free will on the other hand, does not exist.

So who do you /believe/ (ie not know for a fact as you've put it) is in charge of this whole shebang then? Because it would have to be some sort of higher power directing the show.

I've seen no evidence to suggest that some kind of higher power would have to be in charge of the universe.

elvor0:

And so far he's a bit of a dick. Mind you, when I'm in charge in Civ 5 I always go for the bloody conquest route, maybe that's what the god(s) or spirits, or nymphs or genies were up to with the Nazis. They just got bored.

If there were a higher power it is either incompetent or malevolent, neither of which are good options.

elvor0:

Either that or everything is just predetermined...because, because reasons.

Eh?

elvor0:

Also, what does this lack of free will encompass? Animals are no where near as intelligent as us and function on instinct, or bactiria, or amobea or the single celled organisms we evolved from in the first place. If animals are not subject to this lack of free will, then at what point do we join the play?

Everything is subject to this lack of free will, because it is a myth. I think you may be quoting the wrong person...

elvor0:

Simple enough creatures don't even lack the higher function necessary to do anything more than divide, yet are still living creatures, yet they wouldn't even begin to act on instinct let alone perform something resembling "free will". Are their paths all predetermined, or is it just us that are susceptible to the whims of the director?

Again, I think you're quoting the wrong person.

elvor0:

Or do you believe that the Universe is sentient and is in charge? That the planet itself leads us?

Again, I have seen no evidence to the universe being sentient. I do not believe in any higher power.

elvor0:

I know neither of us can really argue either way, but I don't believe in any sort of mystical higher power, thus I'm inclined to agree with us having free will. Otherwise if we go with the fact that most dogma preaches a loving higher power, then he sure as hell isn't the one running things, because if it is, then he's a fucking dick, I'll tell you that for starters.

I am so confused right now. Why would there being a higher power make it so we don't have free will (actually, I can answer that one, but I won't go into that now)? Why would we have free will if there was no higher power?

Kyrian007:
I am in general a skeptic about most pseudo-science "theories" but alien life isn't really too difficult to believe in. After all...

Baron von Blitztank:
I believe in aliens. I mean the universe is infinitely big so there's going to be SOME life out there...

No matter how "special" human development is and how rare what we call "intelligent life" is... in an infinite universe it's an almost statistic inevitability that it has happened elsewhere. What I without a doubt do NOT believe in is ANY "evidence" that alien races have visited our planet. Any species advanced enough to actually TRAVEL here will easily have the technology to observe us without our detecting their presence, much less crashing into power lines and suffering through an autopsy.

I dunno, it's possible that one of their ships could've crapped out when they were flying over head and the only posibility was to escape pod and land in Roswell. Not that I necessarily believe that, but it's...somewhat plausible.

Captcha: The hell is with this sites hard on for Black Mirror recently, I don't fucking know when it starts airing, I just want to make a post!

Arakasi:
-snip for massive space-

You said on page 2, that you don't believe in Free Will, you also said in the post that I quoted that "Free Will on the other hand, does not exist". It's right there in the post you've quoted me for. I was questioning your belief, with points and questions as to what you believe a lack of free will encompasses. You even said in this post that I'm quoting now that free will is a myth, so I have no idea how I'm quoting the wrong person. It may not have been as direct as "What do you think a lack of free will encompases" because obviously that question is far too simple for the subject matter.

From what you've said here, I can only gleam that you don't believe in a higher power, and that things just happen because they are predetermined to happen, (regardless of species or standing in the universe) and no other reason.

It's a rather "philosophical" matter to be discussing, hence the long nature of my point discussing the implications of there being a lack of free will. Not that I'm attacking your belief, I'm actually quite enjoying sitting here musing on it while I take a break from my coursework. I just wondered what your particular thoughts on the matter were and was giving you food for thought in my post.

Had you said you did believe in a higher power, I could buy why you might believe in a lack of free will, but the idea that everything is predetermined from the beginning of time, to now, to the end of the universe seems a bit difficult to swallow if there's no supposed outside force governing it all.

Redlin5:
I believe in ghosts to a small extent. When I was a kid a door opened and closed in front of me once while I was alone in a 170 year old building. No wind. Alone.

Hehe, I'm sorry, but opening and closing doors are always the biggest anecdotal proof that people who believe in ghosts give... I mean someone I knew in highschool was completely and utterly convinced that his grandpa haunted his house, because the fridge door used to open on it's own... disregarding the 40 thousand items weighing down the door and the fact that it was most likely just old... but nope, his grandpa used to leave the fridge door open in the middle of the night, so obviously ghosts, or spirits or whatever... actually they have an account on here... I hope they don't see this... but I'm pretty sure I made my opinion, that I think that they're wrong pretty clear, when he brought it up...<.<

OT: Hmm, I think of my self as someone who's well grounded, I don't believe in ghosts, or aliens, or gods, or any of that... honestly, I'm having a really hard time coming up with something that I "believe" in... maybe that the world doesn't really exist as definable objects or things, only stimuli that we interact with creating our own perception of it... that's always made sense to me... and I guess it's true on some level though maybe not in the extreme way that I think it is...<.<

Jack the Potato:
I wouldn't classify this a "belief" because I'm fairly certain it's not actually true, put I have been pondering lately the idea behind quantum immortality: that since I've now come into existence and am aware of it, it's impossible for me to experience nonexistence again (death), no matter how low the probability of my survival is. For every reality where I could have died, there will always be one where I didn't, and that's the only one that I'll ever be aware of. Again, I'm pretty sure it's bogus, but it's something to think about, for sure.

Huh, that's a really interesting idea... I'm gonna have to look into that... though I have the feeling that I'll be convincing myself into believing it for comforts sake... though I'v avoided that so far, pretty well...

elvor0:

Arakasi:
-snip for massive space-

Snip snip.

I am so confused about your post that I'll just going to have to explain the entire thing so you can understand.
There is no free will.
Why? Because matter either acts in a determined manner (through cause and effect) or an indetermined matter (there is an element of randomness to the process. As the brain is made of matter, anything which happens inside the brain was caused either by priod causes or by prior causes with a mix of randomness.
By what standard is this free?

Also, if there were a higher power, by what means could we be free then?

Moses Maimonides:
...Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect....

I believe the US dollar is going to collapse, or slowly inflate, due too inherant weaknesses in the US economy.

I don't believe in anything. I mean, I believe there ARE aliens somewhere. Are they here? No. Where are they? Why do they only target bored red necks to do semi homo erotic experiments on? We'll probably talk to them some day but chances are they're using a technology to communicate hundreds or thousands of years more advanced than us. That's IF intelligent life doesn't invariably destroy itself.

Are there ghosts? No. Every place where a person has died would have them. Hell, a hospital would be filled to the brim with them.

Is there karma? No. There are some truly horrible people in the world who have everything a person could possibly ask for who will live long, healthy lives filled with making everyone around them miserable while terrible things still happen to wonderful people.

Magic? No. I'd be the first person buying some eye of newt and drawing some pentagrams.

God? Afterlife? No and no.

The world would be a much more interesting place if any of those things exist. I can understand people's want and need for them. Life is long, boring, often horrible filled with pain and random tragedies. It's probably why I play so many video games. Life sucks. If you're poor and have nothing to believe in your only recourse is escapism.

Not too many contrary opinions here.

Though I do believe free will doesn't exist, we're all just insanely complicated biological automatons. I think that's still something most don't believe in.

And no, that doesn't mean I consider human life worthless. It means I consider insanely complicated biological automatons to be valuable beyond measure.

Arakasi:

elvor0:

Arakasi:
-snip for massive space-

Snip snip.

I am so confused about your post that I'll just going to have to explain the entire thing so you can understand.
There is no free will.
Why? Because matter either acts in a determined manner (through cause and effect) or an indetermined matter (there is an element of randomness to the process. As the brain is made of matter, anything which happens inside the brain was caused either by priod causes or by prior causes with a mix of randomness.
By what standard is this free?

Also, if there were a higher power, by what means could we be free then?

Moses Maimonides:
...Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect....

Yeah my post was a more posed towards people who see it in a more "spiritual" light, it was very much discussing the matter in a philosophical way(ugh I'm hating the fact that I have to describe it that way, pretentiousness abounds ). Which is generally the majority when it comes to this and what I was expecting. It's a very complex and awkward subject manner, which no one can answer for certain, especially while I'm sober, hence why my original post was so lengthy, a lot of questions need to be asked of the matter and what it encompasses. However your explanation does seem a bit... Spartan.

A scientific approach to the matter certainly makes for an easier discussion though. I suppose you could technically see it like that, but to view the world that way would be rather depressing to me, to say the least, I already believe that we have no reason to be here other than because we are, so to see everything be determined on a literal atomic scale would be totally crushing.

Enough rambling though, to answer your point, because that's not the same thing as free will. Yes if for example I stick a match in a bottle of oil, it will burst into flames, as a result of its atomic structure, and if I find something I like, my brain will release endorphins, making me feel happy, I have no effect over this. I do however have the ability to make decisions, my brain isn't pre-programmed to make decisions for me before I knew they would happen, because they haven't happened yet, as I'm sure you'd agree. Otherwise this would imply some sort of link between everyone and everything so that we all synch up with our pre recorded responses.

Things behave in a certain way because they are the way that they are, but this is not the same as the concept of free will, as a sentient being, I am capable of decision making, thus unless /everything/ is pre decided, I am the master of my own fate. The oil will always burn if I set it alight, but it is the fact that I alone have the choice to set it on fire that demonstrates my own capability of free will.

On Maimonides point: That is merely speculation. No one may claim to know god (if he even exists), apparently and thus speaking for him in matters that we don't even know to be true seems rather superfluous. I am stating that for me, a higher power would need to be in play to govern things, otherwise we're saying the universe governs itself into this pre destined fate, implying /some/ degree of sentience in the universe.

Even then, Jehova is stated as being all knowing. That does not necessarily mean he knows how everything will happen, it may mean that he knows everything that is currently happening, or that he can see in to the future, in which case, should he tell someone that something bad will happen to them, and they take steps to prevent this, the future has been altered and thus was not pre-determined to happen, leading to free will.

Of course a higher power doesn't mean that we will or not have free will either way, just that I find a lack of free will without a higher power to be difficult to swallow.

Otherwise we're just saying that pre-determined things happen...because they do. And that's a cop out answer. That everything, the first cells, the big bang, the path of evolution, decisions of humans, instincts of animals, who will live and who will die, are all prerecorded into the very fabric of reality, and that no one has a say in what will happen, from the alpha to the omega of time.

Although now that there's a couple of people in the thread talking about this "biologically pre-recorded script thingy", I'm starting to worry it's something that's popped up on the internet and people have taken to just saying. Like pan sexual, or demi sexual. I hate those guys.

Can you direct me to anything that gives me a more detailed article on this?

elvor0:

Arakasi:

elvor0:

Snip snip.

I am so confused about your post that I'll just going to have to explain the entire thing so you can understand.
There is no free will.
Why? Because matter either acts in a determined manner (through cause and effect) or an indetermined matter (there is an element of randomness to the process. As the brain is made of matter, anything which happens inside the brain was caused either by priod causes or by prior causes with a mix of randomness.
By what standard is this free?

Also, if there were a higher power, by what means could we be free then?

Moses Maimonides:
...Does God know or does He not know that a certain individual will be good or bad? If thou sayest 'He knows', then it necessarily follows that [that] man is compelled to act as God knew beforehand he would act, otherwise God's knowledge would be imperfect....

Yeah my post was a more posed towards people who see it in a more "spiritual" light, it was very much discussing the matter in a philosophical way(ugh I'm hating the fact that I have to describe it that way, pretentiousness abounds ). Which is generally the majority when it comes to this and what I was expecting.

I have never seen someone come from a religious or spiritual background and use that to disprove free will, it has always been from a scientific background, see this poll: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.397699-Poll-Free-Will-and-You?page=1
Also, saying philosophical does not make you pretentious, it is a philosophical matter.

elvor0:

A scientific approach to the matter certainly makes for an easier discussion though. I suppose you could technically see it like that, but to view the world that way would be rather depressing to me, to say the least, I already believe that we have no reason to be here other than because we are, so to see everything be determined on a literal atomic scale would be totally crushing.

Depressing for you or no, truth takes presidence. Besides, it doesn't really change how you act.

elvor0:

Enough rambling though, to answer your point, because that's not the same thing as free will. Yes if for example I stick a match in a bottle of oil, it will burst into flames, as a result of its atomic structure, and if I find something I like, my brain will release endorphins, making me feel happy, I have no effect over this.

Anything your brain does is related to its atomic structure, from making you happy, to how you react to it making you happy.

elvor0:

I do however have the ability to make decisions, my brain isn't pre-programmed to make decisions for me before I knew they would happen, because they haven't happened yet, as I'm sure you'd agree. Otherwise this would imply some sort of link between everyone and everything so that we all synch up with our pre recorded responses.

Decision making is a programmed response, programmed by evolution. Computers can also make decisions, there's AI (still nowhere near as advanced as humans, but that's beyond the point) that from an outside perspective could seem to have free will. And actually, from a neurobiological point of view, your brain does know what decision you are going to make before you are consiously aware of it: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
Perhaps you should also read The Selfish Gene, which has quite good explanations as to why we are often very different in terms of how we behave from an evolutionary perspective.

elvor0:

Things behave in a certain way because they are the way that they are

And the same applies to humans, just like it applies to animals, plants and any other thing.

elvor0:

...but this is not the same as the concept of free will

You're right, but it affects it, insofar as it breaks the traditional notion of free will.

elvor0:

...as a sentient being, I am capable of decision making

Your brain is nothing more than a very advanced survival computer. Any decisions you make are a result of your genetics and how your environment has affected those genetics.

elvor0:

...thus unless /everything/ is pre decided, I am the master of my own fate.

I already argued this. I personally am a determinist, meaning that I think everything is already pre-determined, but even if indeterminism were true which it very well could be, that leaves no room for free will either, as indeterminism allows only for semi-random actions to occur, actions which you still aren't in control of.

elvor0:

The oil will always burn if I set it alight, but it is the fact that I alone have the choice to set it on fire that demonstrates my own capability of free will.

Wrong.
Your choice was determined by all the factors that affected your genetics, your environment and thus your brain, and therefore you had no actual choice in the matter. You had a choice insofar as you could consider other options, but you did not perform those other options because of preceeding factors that were outside of your control.

elvor0:

On Maimonides point: That is merely speculation. No one may claim to know god (if he even exists), apparently and thus speaking for him in matters that we don't even know to be true seems rather superfluous. I am stating that for me, a higher power would need to be in play to govern things, otherwise we're saying the universe governs itself into this pre destined fate, implying /some/ degree of sentience in the universe.

...What?
If god can be broken by logic, then it follows that god in that manner probably does not exist. As for the second sentence... I have no idea what you're trying to say, but I'll try respond anyway.
Why would a higher power need to govern things? We have the laws of physics, we understand to some extent that the unvierse as we know it follows rules, but that does not even remotely imply a higher power.
If the universe were pre-determined, and I think it is, that would by no means imply a sentience in the universe.

elvor0:

Even then, Jehova is stated as being all knowing. That does not necessarily mean he knows how everything will happen-

All-knowing means he knows everything, as far as I know, the future is included under the banner of 'everything', because everything is included under the banner of everything.

elvor0:

...it may mean that he knows everything that is currently happening, or that he can see in to the future...

All knowing means it has to be able to see into the future.

elvor0:

...in which case, should he tell someone that something bad will happen to them

He would, were the Jewish god not an asshole.

elvor0:

...and they take steps to prevent this, the future has been altered and thus was not pre-determined to happen, leading to free will.

No. The god would see the event happen unless they intervened, as they know everything, and thus would either act or not act based upon that knowledge. If they did act, it did not change the future, it was merely someone acting on knowledge. If I were to read a book and predict a disaster, unless someone fixed it, and they do fix it, would you be saying I changed the future? Perhaps, but not in the sense that anything else could have happened.

elvor0:

Of course a higher power doesn't mean that we will or not have free will either way, just that I find a lack of free will without a higher power to be difficult to swallow.

Omnisence is incompatable with free will. A higher power without omnisence is in effect blind, and not all-powerful, so they may be a higher power, but that means little. I could say a higher power than me is America, because it has a military and I don't.

elvor0:

Otherwise we're just saying that pre-determined things happen...because they do. And that's a cop out answer.

No, that's not what we're saying.
Pre-determined things happen because they were caused by past things. There's nothing more to it.

elvor0:

That everything, the first cells, the big bang, the path of evolution, decisions of humans, instincts of animals, who will live and who will die, are all prerecorded into the very fabric of reality, and that no one has a say in what will happen, from the alpha to the omega of time.

That's about the size of it. Deal with it.

Well this is a funny question because I don't believe in anything magic or supernatural. I decided not to. Magic stops being magic once it's explained, and the supernatural isn't much more than superstition and our own tendency to interpret the unknown via magic. And since anything can be explained...

As for aliens, I think that it's very statistically improbable that they don't exist, but I don't *believe* they exist.
Oh and I pretty much refuse any conspiracy theory.

Little Woodsman:

hooblabla6262:
I try not to believe in anything that I do not have evidence for. That being said, I have seen some things which I could not explain.

One was a big white creature that moved fast enough to almost appear as a white blur. My friend and I were walking down a hill surrounded by woods to our cars parked at the bottom. We could see something big and white near the cars when all of a sudden it ran up the hill and past us in to the woods.

Where were you and about how big was the creature? I ask because here in the mid-west/south-west parts of
America & in Northern Mexico there are coyotes & coyote/dog hybrids that are often a light gray color and
and can move *really* fast when they want to.

It was summer, in the woods of eastern Canada. And this "beast" was easily bigger than I.
It was in the middle of the night, but the creature had such white fur that it was very easily visible.

It's hard to give any more detail, as it easily traveled 15 meters uphill then back in to the woods in under 5 seconds.
At least, it felt like 5 seconds. Difficult to judge these things that happened so long ago.

 Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT

Reply to Thread

This thread is locked